1898 Krag "wall hanger"

[Battis]

I saw an 1898 Krag rifle in an antique shop. The price tag said "Wall hanger $200.00."
As I was looking it over the owner came over and said "It won't fire, the bore isn't good, the wood is banged up, etc."
Then he said, "You can have it for $150."
I bought it. The wood is banged up slightly (there might be a slight cartouche), the bore is filthy, and the bolt is missing the striker and firing pin. I put the striker and pin from my 1896 carbine into the bolt and it works great. I found a striker, pin and spring online for $40 shipped.
Bring on the wall hangers.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/eb8be2b7-e0d2-4d17-9117-1910c8fbab3e_zps6nhyodhf.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/3c11719f-0eb5-4ec2-b91b-c07d7b8aeaec_zpsvmonku3f.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF5016_zpswctxdpby.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/470ec752-3dbf-465a-bebd-eff6729b05b3_zpshlusdhmj.jpg

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I assume you checked the locking lug (on the bolt) for a crack ?
That could have been a reason why a previous owner would have removed the firing pin, if he felt it was unsafe.

But, all in all, it's a nice find :)

[Hardcast416taylor]

More than likely this "wall hanger" once was an honor guard rifle being used by a VFW post. A friend of mine snagged a Krag about the same as yours that also had the firing pin missing from a VFW post that was going over to using M-1`s. This was back in the `60`s.Robert

[Battis]

The bolt lug looks good - I checked it under a magnifier. The bore needs a good scrubbing. A lot of these antique dealers in the northeast buy the entire contents of houses. I'm guessing he paid less than $100 for this gun from a widow or family of someone who recently passed, and that firing pin is sitting in a drawer somewhere. I paid the same price for an 1896 Krag carbine that was sold as a cut-down rifle.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Congratulations! Really a nice find. Probably an easy $600 profit should you sell it. You're right---bring on the wall hangers.

[Pb2au]

Looks like rubbish. I will send you a check for 200$ and relieve you of that noisesome burden....

[Battis]

The dealer that sold it to me had a Krag 1898 carbine a month or so ago that he said had been cut down from a rifle. I measured the barrel, checked the serial number, went back to see it again (I had some doubts as to whether or not it had been cut down) and it was gone.

[gnoahhh]

What's the bore like? If it really was an honor guard rifle and used to fire blanks (old gov't issue blanks) and not cleaned ever ("Hey guys, meet me back at the Post for a few beers. Don't worry about cleaning those old things!"), then the bore is likely toast and it really is a wall hanger. Still in all, a smart shopper can find a Krag barrel that has some life left in it and put it on the gun and still be in it at a bargain price. I would've paid the man $150 so fast his head would spin.

[madsenshooter]

Some of those enterprising Honor Guard's had fellows that rechambered them to take 30-06 blanks. Some are found that have had the chamber hogged out, and I know of a couple that had other people's attempts at putting a chambered sleeve in them. Inspect it very carefully before firing!

[6mm win lee]

Some of those enterprising Honor Guard's had fellows that rechambered them to take 30-06 blanks. Some are found that have had the chamber hogged out, and I know of a couple that had other people's attempts at putting a chambered sleeve in them. Inspect it very carefully before firing!

Exactly right, Madsenshooter. Good advise. My very first Krag rifle was like that. Saw a good looking rifle in an antique mall over in MD and took it home. There I found the crown around the bolt had been battered and broken. My buddy and I was checkng out the rest the rifle and I don't know what made me grab a spent 30-06 case. It chambered without a hitch.

[jugulater]

the CMP sells new made Krag barrels, i dont have any first hand experience with them myself, but the company that makes them has a good reputation

https://estore.thecmp.org/store/catalog/catalog.aspx?pg=catalogList&cat=BAR

[Battis]

I made up a dummy 30-40 round and it ran through the mag, chambered and ejected perfectly. I'm still cleaning the barrel - it is filthy but the rifling is strong.
There's a seller on ebay and GB selling new, old stock bolts, never used, for about $60 shipped. I posted this question on the Jouster forum - are they worth buying as opposed to having the old bolt checked by a machinist?
If it seems too good to be true (or too good of a deal) it usually is, but nothing really bad on this Krag is jumping out at me. Any other things to look for?

The CMP barrel price isn't bad, if this one is toast.

[Rich/WIS]

Don't let the bore scare you. Have an 1894 that was sporterized that has pitting from chamber to muzzle and it will still group into an inch at 25 yards with open sights and cast.

[Battis]

The bore is in better shape than my 50-70 and that's a decent shooter. If it gongs the gong at 100 yds, and is safe to shoot, I'm a happy guy. I just want to make sure it's safe to fire.

[Adam Helmer]

Battis,

Very Nice Krag Rifle. What Model is it? I bought a few Krags over the years and all shot well with my Cast Boolits.

Adam

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Krags are one of my "areas", and I've got right around two dozen of them. I am familiar with the fellow who sells the brand new, unissued bolts as I've purchased at least 10 of them from him over the last few years. I think his name is Stu Barlow, if memory serves, and he's a great guy to do business with. He told me that 'way back in the heyday of surplus he purchased some crates of some accessories like Krag cleaning rods and these bolts were packed in with them. I had accused him of having an underground CNC machine shop and turning them out as needed, so he told me the story. Anyway, to get more to the point, I'm not sure about "having the old bolt checked by a machinist"--seems more of a do-it-yourself or gunsmith job. If there is no crack in the area of the single locking lug then it is very likely safe to shoot. What you are about 80% likely to find out is that it has excessive headspace and after the first firing your brass will show a bright ring (stretch mark--incipient case head separation) just forward of the rim. If not, you're fortunate and the rifle doesn't have that much use on it, because all of them will eventually develop the problem. The best cure is a new bolt. You see, with the one locking lug, wear seems to be accelerated over, say, a Mauser that has two locking lugs (safety lugs don't count--the Krag's bolt handle acts as a safety lug), and every time a full power round is fired it's like tapping it with a little ballpeen hammer. The lug is gradually compressed, and after thousands of rounds the headspace is gone. You can't suitably restore it by a conventional re-barrel job, because the new barrel can only be screwed in just so far, but the bolt face has backed away. So a new bolt will solve the problem, bringing the face of the bolt back to the proper location. There is one alternative, which is to neck size only your fired brass. That way it is already stretched to fit the individual chamber and won't stretch again on the next firing. You should be able to get several reloads out of the stretched brass. Last word, to do-it-yourself, remove the bolt from the rifle, strip the bolt down to just the body, clean and dry the face well, clean and dry the chamber well, insert a .30-40 " No-Go" gauge and gently close the bolt against the gauge and drop the handle. If the handle goes all the way closed you have excessive headspace. If it won't close using gentle pressure then your headspace is good, and the farther up (short of closing) the handle is the better it is. If the headspace is good and you're going to be a reduced load cast boolit shooter I doubt if you'll ever get it out of specs again in your lifetime. Great old rifles...just love 'em! The machining that went into the receivers was astounding for the time period.

[John Allen]

Talk about a great grab. I would have been all over that.

[Battis]

It's an 1898 rifle. Looks like it was made in 1899.
Thanks for the info, Der Gebirgsjager. I think my local store will check the headspace for me. A new bolt would make a great Father's Day gift.
I keep scrubbing and soaking that bore and it's getting better each time. I think it'll eventually clean up nicely.

[Battis]

Headspace gauges - I searched around this forum, and I know it's been discussed a lot, but which headspace gauge is best to use on the Krags? Go, no go, or field.

[Ken in Iowa]

Unless you are chambering a new barrel, no-go and/or field is all that is necessary.

I recommend Okie gauges. http://www.okiegauges.com/sales.html

BTW, you stole that rifle at that price.

[Battis]

A little off topic, but I also bought this box in that store. I have that rifle. If that box were loaded with 2000 rounds as it says, it'd be worth about $8000. But it's empty.
http://www.ammo-one.com/351WSL.html
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/aa12aef7-5ff8-406a-a2bf-909babc3b055_zpsqwi7zxbr.jpg

[Ken in Iowa]

You may have found a honey hole.

[gnoahhh]

Yeah, I'd be stopping back there on a very regular basis!

[Battis]

My wife bought an antique ring there, so I have leverage (with her, anyways). The dealer that sold me the Krag also has a Springfield 1903 that I didn't check out that well (but I will), a 45-70, an antique 1827 muzzleloader, a Garand, an Ariska, a Swedish Mauser (I already have one) - it seems they don't stay there long, and he keeps getting different ones.

[leadman]

Great find on that Krag. If the bore is no good it might be possible to have it rebored to 35 caliber. It is fairly expensive but it would retain all the original barrel markings this way.
If the headspace is too great you could fireform the brass first with some fast powder and Cream of Wheat. I have a couple of rifles I do this with, including my Encore 7mm Rem Mag. and it works well as long as the case is not full length resized again.

[Battis]

I have a can of this bore cleaner that I've been saving for a special occasion. Not sure what it is, but it works great. It pulls more junk out of the rifling every time I use it. The bore is looking good.

RIFLE BORE CLEANER
MIL-CB-372B & AM2
6850-224-6657
SEABOARD MFG LABS INC
Sept 1968 lot c1131
DSA-640-69-D-0282
GEORGE SENN INC M

[Battis]

Today I loaded up 12 rounds with .308 175 grs GC cast bullets and about 9.5 grs of Red Dot. The rounds chambered, fired and ejected perfectly. I gonged the gong at 100 yds every time, and hit a softball sized rock at 100 yds easily. That load is very light - it was like shooting a heavy .22. I'll probably go up to The Load - 13 grs Red Dot, and maybe try a bigger bullet (I use the .312 185 gr bullet sized to .311 for the carbine).
Shooting cleaned the bore out a lot more.
Nice rifle.

[Scharfschuetze]

Congrats! Glad to hear that the project is bearing fruit... er hits.

[Char-Gar]

Great thread...I just grabbed one of the new Krag bolts off Ebay. I have three Krags and a new bolt is nice to have around the shop, just in case.

[Char-Gar]

I have a can of this bore cleaner that I've been saving for a special occasion. Not sure what it is, but it works great. It pulls more junk out of the rifling every time I use it. The bore is looking good.

RIFLE BORE CLEANER
MIL-CB-372B & AM2
6850-224-6657
SEABOARD MFG LABS INC
Sept 1968 lot c1131
DSA-640-69-D-0282
GEORGE SENN INC M

That is some of the USGI bore cleaner. It is water based and just the ticket for rifles fired with corrosive primers.

I have cleaned a number of old fouled Krag barrels. Here is what I do..

1. Pull the metal from the wood and pour a gallon of boiling water down the barrel. The heat will dry the metal. This will get out most of the powder fouling and assorted crud, however it, or the GI bore cleaners won't do any good on the metal fouling.

2. There will be lots of old metal fouling in the barrel. The best and quickest way to remove it is with Wipe-Out foaming bore cleaner. Follow the directions on the can.

[Battis]

I was looking at a can of that foam the other day but, not knowing how effective it is, I decided on the Hoppes. Good to know. A new bolt is tempting, might even make sense.

[Char-Gar]

I was looking at a can of that foam the other day but, not knowing how effective it is, I decided on the Hoppes. Good to know. A new bolt is tempting, might even make sense.

I killed my first deer in 1960 with a cut down Krag rifle I paid $15.00 for. I still have that rifle and it is a cherished possession. In all of my years I have never seen new Krag bolts for sale. For $55.00, I thought I should have one. They will never be worth less and I can always get my money back.

[Battis]

Good point(s). I just bought one.

[madsenshooter]

Poppert's had a stash of them a few years back too.

[WineMan]

I have a Krag Field gauge made by Yankee engineers. It works with the extractor in the bolt too. I could send it to you, if you send it back. It is smaller than a dime so US Mail is fine. PM me your address if you want to borrow it.

Dave

[tdoyka]

I was looking at a can of that foam the other day but, not knowing how effective it is, I decided on the Hoppes. Good to know. A new bolt is tempting, might even make sense.

the gunslick foaming bore cleaner works great!!! i used it on my 45-70 handi-rifle and it took copper and lead right out of it. i did use it on my 30-40 krag but i also used sweets and shooters choice. i took me 4 or 5 days to get a clean patch out of my 30-40 krag. (never again will a jacketed bullet come out of that krag!!!)

[RPRNY]

Send it out to Jesse Occumpaugh of JES reboring and get it bored out to 35 Krag. What a great old wildcat! I have mine in a modern steel Handi Rifle that will deliver 35Whelen factory performance but love shooting 280 grs soup can cast bullets over 4227 as well. Your "wall hanger" will throw 200 grain jacketed at 2200 without pressure issues.

[Battis]

Actually, the bore is getting cleaner by the, well, hour. I'm going to get some foam cleaner today. The bore is in really good shape, the frame, chamber, internals are all in great shape. I got my Fosters Field gauge yesterday (thanks for the offer, WineMan) and both the rifle and the carbine will not close on it. I'd think about reboring it but, as is, it's a good shooter.

[Char-Gar]

Send it out to Jesse Occumpaugh of JES reboring and get it bored out to 35 Krag. What a great old wildcat! I have mine in a modern steel Handi Rifle that will deliver 35Whelen factory performance but love shooting 280 grs soup can cast bullets over 4227 as well. Your "wall hanger" will throw 200 grain jacketed at 2200 without pressure issues.

I will throw a flag on that play. The last Krag came out of Springfield Arsenal in 1903, that is 112 years ago and most of them are quite brittle. Start flinging 280 grain bullet down range at 2,200 fps and it will turn loose or crack the locking lug. It make take 1 shot or 2,000 shots, but it will happen.

Back in the day when these Krags were fodder or gunsmiths, lugs with cracked with the 22 Hornet round for Pete's sake. The Krag rifle is a wonderful old rifle and should be shot with appropriate loads, but they should not be considered either modern rifles or strong rifles.

[Char-Gar]

the gunslick foaming bore cleaner works great!!! i used it on my 45-70 handi-rifle and it took copper and lead right out of it. i did use it on my 30-40 krag but i also used sweets and shooters choice. i took me 4 or 5 days to get a clean patch out of my 30-40 krag. (never again will a jacketed bullet come out of that krag!!!)

In most Krag barrels there is a huge amount of metal fouling in the rifle. Some of it dating back to when they were shooting cupro-nickle jacketed bullets. When I first tried to really clean a Krag barrel down to bare steel, Sweets was the only thing available. After two or three weekends of cleaning, I plugged the chamber with a wooden dowel, filled the barrel with Sweets, put Duct Tape on the muzzle and let it sit for a month. That got it clean. It didn't hurt the barrel that I can tell, but folks tell you not to do what I did.

Cleaning a rifle barrel like this with patches and solvents can be a exercise in frustration. When you think you have all the powder fouling out and then remove some metal, you will find more powder fouling beneath the metal layers. Cleaning these things are like pealing onions. The foam cleaners get it all done in two or three applications.

Just for grins, here is my first and favorite Krag rifle. I bought it in 1960 for $15.00 from an old Dentist who gave up hunting due to age. It wears an old Pacific receiver sight that is mounted on a stem that replaces the magazine cut off. The front sight band is from an 03 Springfield and hold a Redfield Sourdough Patridge. The groove diameter on this on is .3095. The others run .312 and .308 in the grooves. The big one is a very low four digit SN made in 1895.

Regardless of groove diameter the Krag rifle turns in it's best performance with cast bullets using .312 - .315 bullets due to the very large throat. The limiting factor is the thickness of the case necks and how large the bullet can be and still close the bolt on a chambered round. Sometimes it is worth the effort to neck turn cases to get a few more thousands of bullet diameter.

[labradigger1]

Great thread...I just grabbed one of the new Krag bolts off Ebay. I have three Krags and a new bolt is nice to have around the shop, just in case.


I bought one off him also, good deal on nos stripped bolts.
Lab

[tdoyka]

In most Krag barrels there is a huge amount of metal fouling in the rifle. Some of it dating back to when they were shooting cupro-nickle jacketed bullets. When I first tried to really clean a Krag barrel down to bare steel, Sweets was the only thing available. After two or three weekends of cleaning, I plugged the chamber with a wooden dowel, filled the barrel with Sweets, put Duct Tape on the muzzle and let it sit for a month. That got it clean. It didn't hurt the barrel that I can tell, but folks tell you not to do what I did.

Cleaning a rifle barrel like this with patches and solvents can be a exercise in frustration. When you think you have all the powder fouling out and then remove some metal, you will find more powder fouling beneath the metal layers. Cleaning these things are like pealing onions. The foam cleaners get it all done in two or three applications.

Just for grins, here is my first and favorite Krag rifle. I bought it in 1960 for $15.00 from an old Dentist who gave up hunting due to age. It wears an old Pacific receiver sight that is mounted on a stem that replaces the magazine cut off. The front sight band is from an 03 Springfield and hold a Redfield Sourdough Patridge. The groove diameter on this on is .3095. The others run .312 and .308 in the grooves. The big one is a very low four digit SN made in 1895.

Regardless of groove diameter the Krag rifle turns in it's best performance with cast bullets using .312 - .315 bullets due to the very large throat. The limiting factor is the thickness of the case necks and how large the bullet can be and still close the bolt on a chambered round. Sometimes it is worth the effort to neck turn cases to get a few more thousands of bullet diameter.

when i did the cleaning(gunslicks, shooters choice, and sweets) after two days my patches came out clean. i figured everybody on here was just joking me. when the bore was slugged, out came the slug and more things that i can imagine. powder and cupro-nickel and copper parts with a few other things came out. it took another 2 or 3 days to make mine clean. i'm talking each day, 6- 7 hours of nuthin but cleaning. i should have kept the slug from the 2 day, but i didn't. after 5 days, the slug came out at .3085". it shoots the 165gr ranch dog(.311") real good.

my 1898 springfield was born in 1903. its been restocked(bishops), barrel has been cut to 22" from 30", and i am about to put on a 102k redfield sight. i didn't do the bishops stock, it was around 1950-1960. and i never did find out who cut my barrel off. someday i'll put a military stock on her or maybe i'll find one that is complete!!!

[Battis]

Gunslick Foam Bore Cleaner - where have you been all my life?
I bought a large can at the store in Maine. They display it at end of the milsurp aisle, about ten feet from two newly arrived British .303s and an Eddystone 30-06, rifles that I've read about but never handled. Anyways, the foam cleaner is impressive. I cannot believe how clean the bore is after one application. That was 12 bucks well spent.

[TXGunNut]

Good job on the "wall hanger"! A friend brought a couple of "wallhanger" Winchesters to the range recently, both were excellent shooters. There's no rule that says a decorative item can't be functional. I "decorate" with eye candy when entertaining at home and my guests are always surprised to learn that I actually shoot "those old guns", lol.

[Battis]

The rifle likes the .311 182 gr cast bullets. At 200 yds, 11.5 grs Red Dot is more accurate than 13 grs Red Dot (shooting off hand).
I FL sized the brass - it had been fired in the carbine. The bolt will not close on a Field gauge, but rings are forming on the brass slightly up from the rim.
I bought a new old stock bolt on ebay. If I replaced the original bolt with the new one, would I FL size the brass or just neck size?

[Char-Gar]

[QUOTE=Battis;3285427]The rifle likes the .311 182 gr cast bullets. At 200 yds, 11.5 grs Red Dot is more accurate than 13 grs Red Dot (shooting off hand).
I FL sized the brass - it had been fired in the carbine. The bolt will not close on a Field gauge, but rings are forming on the brass slightly up from the rim.
I bought a new old stock bolt on ebay. If I replaced the original bolt with the new one, would I FL size the brass or just neck size?[/QUOTE

With low pressure cast bullet loads neck sizing is the way to go, UNLESS you want to shoot the same ammo in several rifles. In that case full length resize, you just make your choice and take what you get.

[gnoahhh]

I would certainly try the NOS bolt, and check headspace again. Not closing on a field gauge only tells you that headspace isn't way bad- but it could still be more loosey-goosey than you would want. If you're getting bad stretch marks then you definitely want to partial neck size to provide somewhat better case life, but it isn't a panacea- the damage was already done upon the initial firing. Have you tried expanding the necks of virgin brass to .35, then run into the Krag die until the bolt just barely closes, giving a firm seat against the bolt head? At that point you would have brass customized to allow for somewhat excessive headspace. Nothing beats minimal headspace though for nice long case life. In this day and age of hard to find brass, that is definitely a consideration. In the bad old days when Krag brass was everywhere you looked it was of little consequence to throw away dodgy brass after a couple of firings. Not so much today.

[Battis]

The brass that I have was fired when I bought it (unknown how many times). I used it in the carbine, now I FL sized and fired it in the rifle. I'll get some new unfired brass and try it with the rifle - some with the old bolt, some with the new. I guess my question is: if you fire form or just fire brass in the rifle, then switch the bolt for a new one, would the formed/fired brass be useable with just a neck size? I'm thinking yes, since the chamber dimensions are the same everywhere except the distance back to the bolt face.

[gnoahhh]

Probably. Only one way to find out.