Repaired ccw guns and trust.

[Firebricker]

I have an Ruger LC-9 that I sent in for FTF the sent it back within two weeks very good service. I shot a couple boxes through it without any problems. This made me think what what does it take to get your trust back in a firearm that has been repaired? For me at least two more boxes but thought it would be interesting to hear what others thoughts are on it. FB

[JSnover]

Dunno. How many did you shoot before it failed?

[MGD]

I would want 200 rounds with no malfunctions.

[RobS]

Dunno. How many did you shoot before it failed?


Very good point to bring to the equation.

[Bzcraig]

I really hadn't put much thought into the question until I bought my Kahr. Kahr recommends 200 rounds before you consider it reliable. Since then that has become my benchmark.

[country gent]

I dont Know I have a small 32 auto that has been back to factory twice for broken trigger return springs. I put a few hunddred thru it testing and proving it out when the first spring broke. Got it back from manufacturer was in the process of testing proving it again when the second spring broke. WHen it came back the second time it was not only fixed but a very nice trigger job was done also. Its much nicer trigger now ( double action only auto) and it is a very nice little pistol, but also after 2 times of being factory repaired I have no confidence in this pistols reliability. I should have bought the used secamp there instead of it.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Kind of depends on your ammunition and how the gun likes it. Then there is how you hold it and a variety of other factors that can contribute to reasons why the gun doesn't go bang.

I have a thread in the Castboolits section called The Importance of Training. A good read!

One of the components of training is Malfunction Clearing Drills. This is where you learn to recognize and correct malfunctions. The only semi auto malfunction that takes more than 1.5 seconds to clear is a type 3 Failure to Extract. You are given 6.5 seconds to clear it.

No Semi Auto gun is going to run trouble free 100% of the time, and this is not a problem if you actually know how to fix it. IF you don't,,, maybe some training is in order.

If you don't want to have some one teach you,,, then about your only real alternative is a Revolver.

Country Gent: I believe I'd sell that one! If the gun breaks during a fight no amount of training can fix that.

Also the little guns are far more persnickety than full sized guns.

Randy

[imashooter2]

I like 1,000 rounds without a failure. Never had a S&W revolver that didn't make the grade. [smilie=1:

[Dan Cash]

For those who think a revolver is the answer to reliability problems, just wait: Until you have a cartridge with a high primer, hang up; until you pocket carry and find a dime stuck between the frame and cylinder; have a bullet jump the crimp on your cartridge case and lock up the gun. Nothing is 100%.

[imashooter2]

Many, many rounds fired. Many, many hours pocket carried.

Nothing is 100%, but they sure beat snot out of a semi auto.

[Firebricker]

As far as how many in my particular gun before it just flat did not want to fire I am gessing between 100 and 150 rounds. It started as a once in awhile to not at all. I did a little checking and found out that it was fairly common on that model. After 200 rounds I will probably have regained cofidence in it. I am just curious of others thought on it and not just with semi-auto but with what ever you happen to carry. I guess if had any carry gun that had the same problem more than once that it would be put away or sold. FB

[Outpost75]

I would want 200 rounds with no malfunctions.

Yes! with the ammo you intend to carry!

[Petrol & Powder]

Yes! with the ammo you intend to carry!

That would be my minimum.

[JSnover]

Yeah, 200 sounds reasonable. Gives you a chance to weed out bad mags, practice your tactical reload, too.
Make sure the ammunition isn't too hot for the piece. If you think you'll practice with the cheap stuff and use +P+ for defense, get a gun that is built for that pressure level.

[375supermag]

Hi...

I think it depends on the firearm and your own personal point of view.

I have a new S&W MP40 that has about 300 rounds( a mix of 165 and 180gr factory rounds) through it with good accuracy and no malfunctions. I still am not ready to use it as a carry gun or even as a home defense gun. It does seem somewhat more accurate with the 180gr bullet.

I'll probably put another couple hundred rounds through it and then make a determination about its suitability for use as a self defense weapon.

It wasn't bought for that purpose. I just wanted to test a different caliber in a polymer-framed gun (something I had never previously owned).

I probably shot about 500 rounds through my full-size Springfield Armory 1911 in .45ACP before I started carrying it. It was brand-new and needed a different recoil spring and the throat polished before it was reliable, but once that was sorted out it became my primary carry gun.

My Colt Combat Commander was shot about 250 times before I started carrying it. Still hasn't ever jammed after years of use.

My various revolvers that I carry(mostly while hunting and hiking) have all had hundreds of rounds at varying power levels shot through them before I have settled on a round that I am happy with. I can't think of a single revolver that I own that has been carried before my son and/or I have shot at least 300 rounds through first with no malfunctions. Many have been shot well over a thousand times before they go out it the field. Now that I think about it...I probably have 5 or 6 that have at least that many rounds through them that have never been shot or carried anywhere other than the range at the gun club.

[Bigslug]

Assuming it's been fixed by the factory or someone who knows what he's doing? If I can get each of the magazines I might carry to run one full load through, I'm happy. I never saw the sense in running a gun that works so much that it stops working. . .just to see if it works. To me, that always seemed like taking an interstate road trip to see if you got your oil filter screwed down properly.

[bedbugbilly]

Good question . . . sorta like . . . "my car stopped and I had to have it towed . . .they repaired it . . do I dare take it on a long trip?

I'm with a minimum of 200 rounds of what you practice with/carry.

It's interesting that this question is asked . . . think about it . . . . I've seen many many folks go through CC classes . . . some who have never fired a handgun before. They get certified . . . buy a handgun and some ammunition . . . then don't practice but carry. Sounds funny to those of us who practice and shoot on a regular basis . . . but it does happen. I wonder if they ever worry about "reliability"?

[Petrol & Powder]

There are some designs and cartridge combinations that I trust from experience. I will say that the smaller a semi-auto gets, the more leery I become. If the gun will run 200 rounds of the intended carry ammo without the slightest hiccup, I'd be inclined to trust it.

200 rounds through a Glock 19/17/22, SIG 225, Beretta 92, etc. and I'd never give it another thought. A gun that I wasn't familiar with, particularly a small pistol, I might want to test it a little more.

[StrawHat]

For those who think a revolver is the answer to reliability problems, just wait: Until you have a cartridge with a high primer, hang up; until you pocket carry and find a dime stuck between the frame and cylinder; have a bullet jump the crimp on your cartridge case and lock up the gun. Nothing is 100%.

Dan,

While I agree that "...Nothing is 100%... " The problems you describe are all operator error.

Kevin

[ole 5 hole group]

10 rounds, 50 rounds, 200 rounds or a 1,000 rounds - none of it certifies that firearm to be reliable - it should be classified as "peace of mind", as that's all it is.

If you're ever so unlucky to get yourself in a situation where you actually fire a shot in anger - you just need to know how to get your firearm back into the fight in the shortest length of time, if you experience a firearm failure - if the firearm appears to be un-repairable upon your hasty firefight inspection, you better have lady luck as a close side-kick when you attempt to get your butt outta Dodge.

If a round comes calling - you'll be going for sufficient cover if you're smart - if you're smart but there's no sufficient cover - you really need to send that 1st round down on target, so take your time and use your damn sights but be quick about it!!!!!

[wantoutofca]

I had a Kahr CW-45 and after about 500 rounds the slide stop sheared (with factory loads, all I'll shoot from a carry gun). After that I could never trust it and traded it off for something else. Loved the heck out of the gun prior to that though. Once the trust is lost I'm done when my life is in the balance.

[Mtnfolk75]

I almost exclusively a Roller guy now, because I hate chasing brass. Because of that I don't practice near enough with a Semi-Auto Pistol, I shoot my revolvers at least monthly & often times weekly. As far as High Primers & Recoil Induced Bullet Pull, I check each round of my carry ammo in the revolver to verify cylinder rotation & I have shot many, many rounds of my carry ammo and have never had bullet pull. BTW, I have been carrying daily since 1978 & have had a couple of dustups with no failures .... [smilie=s:

[quickdraw66]

Yes! with the ammo you intend to carry!

That's all good and well, but what do you do when your SD ammo is close to a buck a round? I settled for a couple boxes and a ton of reloaded bullets with a similar profile.

[shooting on a shoestring]

For me it depends on the firearm.
Any revolver I get for the purpose first gets a complete disassembly, meticulous cleaning, inspection, proper lubrication and reassembly. If it all looks right, feels right going together, timing and dry fire are all good, then a cylinder full of a standard load on target as expected and I'm ready to bet on it.

An auto loader gets the same but needs to show me it's not sensitive to firing upside down, one handed, all magazines work and the load works the pistol without any issue. That took a couple hundred each for my Hi Power and LCP. So far those are the only auto loaders that have made it into my defensive line up.

If it's a gun I don't understand, it's a range toy. If it's a gun and that has an issue its either a project piece or trade fodder.

I would rather fight using a K Frame I know inside and out than any gun I can't explain how it works no matter how many rounds are in its history.

Thats my take. It makes me a happy and well armed camper.

[imashooter2]

That's all good and well, but what do you do when your SD ammo is close to a buck a round? I settled for a couple boxes and a ton of reloaded bullets with a similar profile.

You spend the buck a round and shoot it.

[quickdraw66]

You spend the buck a round and shoot it.
Some people can't afford to shoot $200 worth of ammo.

[country gent]

You can prove basic reliability and function with good handloads or lower cost ammo then a couple 1-2 boxes of your carry ammo to prove it. I normally replace carry ammo once a year with fresh. I then shoot up last years ammo over several range practice sessions. In this way ammo is kept fresh and some practice is obtained with it. With a little work a handload that duplicates you carry ammo can be assembled for practice use. For my little 380 i use a 100 grn cast bullet ANd have a load that duplicates the rem 102 grn golden saber I carry. This handload duplicates point of impact point of aim ejection and function. Recoil feels very close also. These smaller carry guns ( either semi auto or revolver) are much harder to shoot well and to maintain. Practice is a must.

[imashooter2]

Some people can't afford to shoot $200 worth of ammo.

Then those people only know that a similar round is reliable.

[quickdraw66]

Then those people only know that a similar round is reliable.
Its not their fault they can't afford to waste $200. If a round with a similar profile to the SD ammo works in the gun, the SD ammo should too, and the box or two of SD ammo you put through the gun will verify that.

[imashooter2]

Its not their fault they can't afford to waste $200. If a round with a similar profile to the SD ammo works in the gun, the SD ammo should too, and the box or two of SD ammo you put through the gun will verify that.

Everyone makes choices.

You seem to have convinced yourself, and you aren't going to convince me. Let's agree to disagree.

[quickdraw66]

Everyone makes choices.

You seem to have convinced yourself, and you aren't going to convince me. Let's agree to disagree.
For some people, that's not really a choice.

[FergusonTO35]

My personal standard is that any gun and ammo combination should have no more than 1 failure that is not my fault in every 300 rounds fired. I think that is pretty reasonable and all my guns and ammo for carry and hunting meet that standard. I have actually had more jams out of revolvers than autos. Most of them have been due to ammo that was too fat to chamber properly, carbon buildup in chambers, or dirt built up under the extractor; all of which prevented the cylinder from rotating. My trusty S&W 10-5 used to have a mysterious condition where the cylinder stud would not push the latch back all the way, locking up the mechanism. I found some fine burrs of metal inside the frame hole that were not letting the cylinder stud enter the hole. Cleaned them up with a small needle file and its has been flawless since.

[Firebricker]

ole 5 hole group makes a good point it really does come down to "peace of mind" Lots of good thoughts on the subject here. It does reinforce that you should practice and make sure your carry gun stays reliable. I think one thing about the smaller carry guns is they typically do not get shot as much or as often. I shoot the smaller carry gun for function I do not dislike it but certainly do not enjoy shooting like a full size revolver or auto.

Ferguson, I had a mod29 that did the exact same thing once. Luckily an easy fix and the only hicup I have ever had from a S&W. FB

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

in the past I would have told you 250 trouble free rounds with the last 50-100 as the carry ammo

now I think it would be a good idea to run the ammo and gun in competition , becuase being on the clock seems to find more malfunctions than just shooting at your pace.

i have seen nearly every major brand of gun hang up sometimes ammo but also other things

[Petrol & Powder]

Failures can involve ammunition, the firearm or both the ammunition & firearm; it's a system.
Testing with the intended type of carry ammunition is done to verify that particular system (ammunition & firearm). Increasing the number of rounds fired during that test is done to increase the sample size and reduce the odds of an anomaly skewing the test results. No amount of testing will eliminate all doubt in the future functioning of that system but a large enough test sample can increase confidence in the system to a point that the risk of failure becomes an acceptable risk.
If a particular type of parachute works one time the system is at least known to be capable of functioning. If we perform 10,000 test jumps with that type of parachute and it works every time we can be reasonably confident that the system is reliable. The parachute system might fail on the 10,001st test but the risk of that happening is acceptably low enough.

[warboar_21]

For those who think a revolver is the answer to reliability problems, just wait: Until you have a cartridge with a high primer, hang up; until you pocket carry and find a dime stuck between the frame and cylinder; have a bullet jump the crimp on your cartridge case and lock up the gun. Nothing is 100%.

If one is is pocket carrying any handgun there should be nothing in that pocket but the gun and the holster it is in. That is a recipe for disaster. Something gets in the trigger guard and you pull it out or shift the gun and the gun goes bang, you or someone around you gets hurt.

If one is hand loading for their CCW then they should inspect each and every round more so than their regular range ammo. Doesn't hurt to also check factory ammo for the same thing.

[MT Gianni]

I had a Kahr CW-45 and after about 500 rounds the slide stop sheared (with factory loads, all I'll shoot from a carry gun). After that I could never trust it and traded it off for something else. Loved the heck out of the gun prior to that though. Once the trust is lost I'm done when my life is in the balance.
Just curious, do you sell your car once you have had a brake job? I shoot enough to be able to regain trust, at minimum 200 rds. I also want to verify reliability with different loads in an auto loader, not as much in a revolver.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I just felt compelled to reiterate major points from my earlier point about training.

Ya know I just did a Front Sight 2 day Pistol Sill Builder course. I fired a little over 300 rounds total.

I had about 3 malfunctions all FTF's with 3 brands of Factory 230 gr Ball type ammo which my Glock 21SF feeds perfectly. All of these malfunctions were weak primers as they all had good primer strikes. All of these rounds fired the second time they were hit.

However I fixed the gun in less than two seconds on all three occasions... If I was using this ammo for personal defense I probably would look at each round individually however there is no way you could see if a primer is weak.

I don't believe for one second that just because you spend $50 on 20 rounds of super-duper ammo that it is any more likely to go bang or not. Any ammo that is mass produced, and virtually all PD ammo is mass produced, is going to have failures. This simply because there is no such thing as 100%.

There is 99.99 % but not 100%. There are no Absolutes! Period!

So if you are relying on your ammo to protect you from malfunctions you might want to have a look at that fact. Your gun and ammo are a system, and that "system" is not 100% foolproof,,, no matter what you think.

I had a thread recently on the Castboolits Forum entitled the "Importance of Training." This was all about you getting enough training to be able to use that "system" to it's best advantage. It was broken down into several major points.

Safety, Normal Operation of the Firearm, Accuracy with the Firearm, Speed, and finally, Clearing Malfunctions.

How reliable is your gun? It is just about as reliable as you are!

If you are skipping training of Malfunction Clearing because you think you won't ever need them, you are very foolish. Thinking that proving a gun out over X number of rounds somehow guarantees it's performance under stress conditions is also foolish. It might make you feel better but it is no guarantee. Knowing how to run the gun and fix it if it falters is the only guarantee.

Full size Glocks 17,22,21 are arguably the most reliable pistols ever designed. They are not particularly finicky about ammunition or grip on the gun. They are ubiquitous!

They are also the easiest Auto Pistol to learn with, and the easiest to clear when stoppage occurs. The only thing more reliable is a Revolver!

Point being,,, you still need to learn how to run the thing.

This is best done in a Professionally Delivered Class lasting several days where you fire 200-800 rounds, and are coached thru any issues you might have with any of the facets of operating your weapons system.

By the time you are done, you probably will feel confident with just about any ammo you can buy, and you damn sure will know if your choice of gun was correct or not.

With my .45 Glock I see no reason to use PD ammo. The normal .45 ACP 230 gr Ball Ammo has killed more opponents than all the PD ammo ever made, or for that matter, that ever will be made! 4 Major Wars, and uncountable numbers of conflicts over the last 100 years will back me up on this.

So go to a class! Learn how to use your gun, and find out if works or not.

You will probably have fun doing it too!

Randy

[Petrol & Powder]

Having the knowledge and skill to quickly clear a malfunction is important and I agree that training is the key to that skill.
Building on what Randy said:
There is no such thing as 100% reliable but we can get awfully close. Factors such as a bad primer are very difficult to predict but they are also very rare.
Most deadly force encounters involving firearms are over very quickly with just a few rounds fired. While it is important to have the skill to clear a malfunction it is far better to avoid that potential malfunction in the first place.
If you cannot get 200 rounds of a particular ammunition to function without failure in a particular firearm - something is terribly wrong.

[Schrag4]

I think some of you guys worry too much. I'm in the camp that won't spend $200 on carry ammo just to test. I'll run a mag or two of the expensive stuff through the gun, and I'll shoot the snot out of it with other ammo. I believe bullet design is really all that matters BECAUSE most personal defense ammo is loaded hotter than range ammo. It all comes down to whether the bullet will feed into the chamber, or if it will get hung up. If you're that worried, I know that in many cases you can buy the same projectiles that are used in defense ammo, either as pull-downs or sometimes even new. Why not load up 200 rounds that you know are lighter-recoiling with the same bullet? If those work then the heavier recoiling ones should too, right? You'd probably save at least $100, probably a lot more. In fact, whether or not you can buy the projectiles may be what should push you toward or away from a particular brand of carry ammo.

To get back to what the OP was asking, I would say it depends on why the gun was sent to the manufacturer. If it was for feeding problems then this discussion about round count with expensive ammo is relevant. If it's for a part of the gun that has nothing to do with feeding, why does anything except perhaps the amount of recoil matter? I think my level of trust would probably be formulated by what info I could find about other owners of the same gun having my particular problem. If I break an extractor, and I find that others have had theirs break, even the replacements that the factory provides, then I won't ever trust it. If my problem is incredibly rare, I won't have any reason to believe it will happen again once the offending part is replaced. No matter what, I'll be shooting it a lot, because I really enjoy shooting.

[imashooter2]

I think some of you guys worry too much. I'm in the camp that won't spend $200 on carry ammo just to test.

Interestingly, I don't think some of you guys worry enough. :)

[mold maker]

If I have to worry 24/7 about what might happen, I'll just carry a rock and learn to throw accurately.
Just because a gun fires flawlessly for 2 or 2000 rounds, the next time is never guaranteed. The OP's gun broke, like anything made as cheaply as possible, and that IS how it's done.
If you want guarantees, buy insurance, so your next of kin will benefit.

[Firebricker]

Scrag4, Good question yes my original question was based on any type of breakage that required parts and repair. Not a malfunction that could be cleared or a faulty ammo problem. With mine it was a firing pin issue you could clear it as fast as you wanted and pull the trigger on the same round it was not going off. Since I was asking a lot as a conversation starter guys have made several good point on malfuctions not just breakage. There are a lot of good points of view on reliability in general. FB

[goofyoldfart]

Ok, I just have to answer in on this one. as far as ammo, I reloaded 2000 rounds of 38 spl. about 34 years ago. due to work and a bunch of other reasons(one of which is how in h3ll do you misplace that much ammo? I did.:oops:) 20 years later I found it. it had been stored in a 40mm ammo can in dry dark hiding. Soooo, I decided to shoot it up. It was loaded to slightly "warm" level but not really HOT. spent the weekend shooting all 2000 rds and saved the brass. I had exactly 1, say again, 1 round FTF. It fired on the 3rd strike. bad or weak primer. a little while later, about a month, I was shooting some 38spl. defense ammo. A box of federal, don't remember the exact make and model, and had 7 fail to fire out of the box. New stuff. made a phone call to Federal and had a serious complaint and talked to them. they said to send it all back through my gun dealer. did so and they made it good with 5 boxes of the same ammo. At the time I was working as a Uniformed Armed Security Officer. I shot the fed stuff for qualification but used my own reloads for carry. the weapon that this was all used in (including the 2000rds.) was a S&W Mod 64-1 stainless 38spl. that had the hammer firing pin.
As for faith in weapon---that 64-1 earned it. Still have it. ammo issues are a **** shoot at best. Don't know if this is pertinent to the op thread or not , just my 2 pennies. God Bless to all and theirs.

Goofy aka Godfrey;-)

[wantoutofca]

Just curious, do you sell your car once you have had a brake job?

Yes. I also replace my dishwasher when I pull out a dirty spoon after it has run. Same thing with the washing machine, but then again they don't clean spoons very well in the first place.

[Shooter6br]

In Smith J frame we trust

[Petrol & Powder]

In Smith J frame we trust

Five for Sure.