45/70 using 4895 powder.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

I follow a number of forums, many times as the posts pertain to cast bullet and recently I saw some posts about 45/70 loads using 4895.

Hmmmmmmmmm! I am very satisfied with the results I'm currently getting with a 465gr Wide Flat Nose pushed to 1650fps by 47.5gr of H335. GREAT on deer and elk!

However, I'd always like to see better groups so I began to explore information using "H" and "IMR" 4895 with bullets of over 400gr.

Hmmmmmm again! Little information at that level, and almost NONE with the IMR version.

The Hornady loading manual lists a max load of 53.2gr behind their 500gr "J" bullet and a velocity of 1700fps. RUGER #1 data. This was the only IMR info I could find that addressed heavier bullets.

I have two e-mails in to Hodgdon to ask about load data and what are the facts about the current "H" and "IMR" 4895 being the same powder. NO ANSWERS!

So, shooting a RUGER #1, but having no need or desire to shoot loads at the #1 levels, I decided to do a test series with IMR starting at 42gr.

I have felt the velocity figures I've previously seen with the 45/70 seem to indicate that many times they vary little between the high and low velocity in a test series. However, I have never seen results this close.

The powder used, IMR 4895, CCI BR2 primer, Starline brass, 465gr Wide Flat Nose cast of 50/50 Wheel Weights/lead - water quenched and sized .460, 5 shot groups..

42gr - 1462fps - 2 3/4"group

43gr - 1528fps - 1 3/4" group - 5 into 3/4"

44gr - 1572fps - 3 3/4"group

45gr - 1591fps - 2 3/8"

46gr - 1626fps - 3 3/8" - 6fps between high and low velocity

47gr - 1659fps - 3 5/16"group - 4 into 1 3/8" - 8fps between high and low velocity

48gr - 1693fps - 1 7/8"group - 4 into 1 3/16"

Glad to see powder supplies coming back, so yesterday I was able to pick up 3lbs of the IMR powder and will now get ready to shoot a second series of test loads.

Think I'll start at 46.5gr and proceed to 50gr in 1/2gr steps. This should verify the result already seen and also look for sweet spots missed with the full grain steps taken in the first series.

With the positive results I've seen at this point, I'm surprised I have not seen more 4895 posts on the forums.

Anyway, will be a couple of weeks before I can again get out to test loads, but I will be loaded and ready.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Idaho Mule]

Crusty, good to see yer still alive over there on the other side of the hill. That is some VERY good info you just posted, thank you. I do not shoot 45-70 at this time (don't hold it against me) but I do shot a lower pressure creature at times-- you have seen it. IMR 4895 has always been a favorite of mine for 303 Brit. I know that does not pertain to this thread but I am still interested and will keep an eye on your updates. August 1 is not very far away. JW

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Hey there Mule. Long time no hearing from your direction!

Yes, Aug. 1st is closing in!

I have loaded up a second series, and hope to do those tests next Wed.

Did start at 46.5 and went to 50gr in 1/2gr steps.

Will be interesting to see the results.

If I should see a better group this what I'm getting with the H335 and it comes with a touch more velocity, I may need to get a new Leupold CDS dial for my scope.

That could happen, but I am not seeking higher velocity, just always like to see tiny groups.

Good chatt'in with ya again!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[45coltnut]

I too like IMR 4895 for the 45-70. Like you, I shoot the single shots in a Winny 1885 Hi-Wall. And, I don't plan on pushing my 405 grain at crazy velocities. At first I did want too, but after a few sessions to the range my shoulder decided it was better to lower the charges some :) I'm still working on my load developments as IMR 3031 wasn't what my gun liked. But, it looks very promising with the 4895. I have loads from 34 to 42 grains loaded now and will hopefully make it out to the range this coming weekend.

I'll keep you informed as I too am anxious to hear back on your results as well.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Coltnut,

I hope to be able to do the second series of IMR 4895 tests this Wed.

As per high velocity, I hunted one season with a 355gr Wide Flat Nose cast at a 2300fps muzzle velocity and it was utterly devastating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Never want to see that big of a hole ever again. The WFN cast are HIGNLY EFFECtIVE!!!!!!!!!!!! As an old expanding "J" bullet shooter, it really caught me by surprise.

The 465gr is still highly effective, but with out the devastation.

Now, that factor will go up if my tests should show a REALLY Great group at say 1800fps, so being very happy with the 1650fps level I hope the velocity doesn't get much higher.

Should know on Wed.

I wish the "edit" feature on the forum would allow me to change the heading of this thread as I'd like to include "4895" in the title line. I think this thread is getting less readers then it might because of that fact.

If I get some positive results of some note in this next series, maybe I'll start a new thread and give a reference to this information. If I do that, I'll also refer, here, to the new thread so people can get the total picture.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[runfiverun]

I changed the title for ya hopefully it's more like what you wanted

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Well thank you VERY KINDLY Runfiverun!!!!!!!!!!!!

While that may not be what I'd used, that will certainly get er done!

Hope to have some good data by later Wed.

Again thanks for making the change!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Well the promise that seemed to be there in the first series of IMR 4895 didn't prove out in the second series of tests.

This was with a different and MUCH newer lot number of powder, and could be a factor in the results.

I was not as stated earlier, looking for higher velocity beyond my 47.5gr of H335 load, but would have welcomed groups a bit tighter.

Remember that the first series of test went from 42gr of IMR 4895 to 48gr. in one grain steps, while this series went from 46.5gr to 50gr in 1/2gr steps.

46.5gr - 1602fps - 1 7/8" group

47gr - 1631fps - 2" group

47.5gr - 1654fps - 4 3/4"group - strongly Horizontal

48gr - 1665fps - 4 3/16" group - strongly Horizontal

48.5gr - 1681fps - 4 1/16" group - 4 into 2 3/4" - strongly vertical

49gr - bad velocity readings, changed battery - 3 5/8" group

49.5gr - 1739fps - 4 5/16" group - 4 into 2"

50gr - ? 2061fps ? - 3 1/2"group - 3 into 7/8"

I question the last set of velocity readings, however the shot to shot variation was reasonable.?.?......

There you have it, glad I have a reliable load already established.

Will I test "H" 4895? Will need to think about that. It would help a lot if Hodgdon would ever reply to my questions. It is a sore spot with me when companies have contact information and they don't reply. Poor business!!!!!!!!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[MBTcustom]

This is just some fantastic testing CDOC!
Thanks for taking the time to post your findings in addition to burning the powder in the first place. You're a tougher man than I for launching 465gr bullets to 2000ish FPS out of a Ruger #1, and actually keeping it together in a group.
Thanks again!

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Tim,

Just as well that "the group" didn't show up at or close too 2000fps as I am will satisfied with the 1650fps and the results with the 465gr and H335.

Sure glad that one is waiting in the wings, as the early cow season is only about 6 weeks away,

CDOC

[runfiverun]

if your question was about the two powders being the same I know the older stuff isn't.
in many cases the H type burned just enough faster to throw many of my higher speed cast boolit loads out of balance.
in other cases it appeared to burn slower.


your results are just a bit confusing to me but they show this is not a good combination you have going on there.
usually if you have vertical stringing it is a velocity variation issue generally caused by inconsistent ignition.
a tuft of Dacron or increasing the load will pull things back together usually.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Runfiverun,

Perhaps I can clear up any confusion you may have if you ask.

As far as velocity variation being the cause of the vertical stringing, I'd doubt it in this case.

Other then with the 50gr load where the variation was a bit larger, Many of these loads had the lowest variations I ever recall seeing, 6 & 8fps between the highest and lowest velocity on a couple of loads as listed in the first series.

Because the upper loads were slightly compressed, there would be no need for any filler, and there were never any problems with firing, ignition being instant.

As said, this was a search for possibly better groups and not higher velocity, so my current load is very successful and I can happily live with it if I never find that tiny group.

CDOC

[smokeywolf]

Thanks for the testing and report CDOC. IMR 4895 has always been known to like heavier boolits. Because of it's versatility in the larger rifle cases, I've used it to good benefit in 30-30, 30-40, 30-06, 348 and yes even a little 45-70.
Seems like it might be worthwhile to revisit that 43 grain load again.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Yes Smokywolf, I have thought of that, but I really don't want to drop below my current velocity of 1650fps.

I would have lived with it if great groups had showed up at a SLIGHTLY higher level, but would prefer to stay with the H335 load rather then dropping to the lower level.

No question that the 43gr/1528fps would still get er done, but my scope is set up for the 1650 so at present I think I stick with it.

CDOC

[runfiverun]

the 335 seems about right then.
I have seen 3031 tested and it didn't quite measure up either.
the step next would be the 335 then 322 which seems to be the powder of choice for high performance 45-70 loads which is not quite what you are looking for.
you'd have to search around some to find something similar[ish] to the 335 [maybe a slow lot of milsurp 335 would work]

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Runfiverun,

Have already tested a bunch of powders in my 45/70 and always kept coming back to the H335.

When I first started down this path, I ended up using RL7 behind a 355gr. Much happier with the 465gr.

So, the IMR test was just in the hopes of finding that magical group combination.

Guess I should call Hodgdon since they can't seem to be bothered to answer the 2 "E" mails I sent their way. Grrrrrr!

Maybe "H" 4895 would be worth a try, but sure would like to know just how close the current production of "H" and "IMR" are together in burn rates etc.

Come on Hodgdon, talk to me. Please!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Wayne Smith]

All of my information is that the H- and the IMR- are not the same powder and data cannot be interchanged. When they are the same they are in the process of changing lables (I think) to the H- version only.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Thanks Wayne!

CDOC

[runfiverun]

I really hope not.
the H-type is faster in most of the smaller bore cartridges.

[45coltnut]

CDOC,

I need to correct myself, as I discovered today my memory isn't what it used to be. I'm actually using IMR 4198 and not 4895. I went to the range this morning for more load development. 35 grains from my hi wall is giving me 1" groups at 50 yds with a peep. So far, this is my best cast load. I think it's around 1500-1550 fps. My new chrome is on the way now, so I'll know for sure next week.

Give 4198 a try if you haven't. It burns nicely.

[Larry Gibson]

Been using IMR, milsurp and H 4895s in the 45-70 since the mid '70s. With 400 - 500 gr bullet it does very well even down at TD velocities of 1350 and 1250 fps. Actually in TDs you can up the velocities to 1450 - 1500+ fps while maintaining safe TD level pressures. In lever actions, single shots and bolt actions it is very good powder to use for top end loads with 350 - 500 gr jacketed and cast bullets. Depending on the seating depth of the bullet used I find H4895 to be the best choice with 100% load density. In my Siamese Mauser 450-400-70 (45-70) with H4895 under the Lee 457-500-FN seated to magazine length I get just over 2100 fps and all the fun and recoil I want. That's right up there with the 458 Win Mag. However, I mostly use the Lyman 457483 cast of COWWs + 2% tin and AC'd over 47 gr 4895 for a tudge over 1700 fps. That my lion and lessor game (rocks) load (please allow me my hallucinations as I've read Capstick, Rourke and all the other African hunting writers too much......)and is pleasant to shoot.

I believe the IMR4895 is North American made (Canada) and the H4895 is Australian made.

Larry Gibson

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Thanks 45coltnut and Larry.

I sat down last night and went through my growing stack of 45/70/465gr cast bullet test targets and again came to the conclusion that H335 is giving me the most consistently good results.

My IMR4198 test info IS only a small portion of the total as it just didn't show results that drew me on to more such tests.

The RL7 tests are a good portion of the total as there were some very fine groups at times, something however, that simply did not verify out in additional tests.

While there were other very good groups from other powders, again during follow up tests things fell apart group wise.

I was hopping for better, but that same thing happened with the most recent IMR4895 tests, even though I gave that powder/bullet combination way more then a fair chance to shine.

Where during the first test series, I started at 42gr and went to 48 in one grain steps, the second series as posted went from 46.5gr to 50gr in 1/2gr steps.

The second series covered the most likely positive results of the first test series over the velocity range I wish to use. Using the half grain steps gave the powder plenty of opportunity to show good results that may have been hiding during the first go around.

Sorry to say, It simply didn't prove out.

Now, that first test series may have been completely valid, and it could simply be the change to the much newer powder lot that was the cause of the poor results.

However, were it not for the fact that I have already made numerous attempts to get repeatable results from RL7, that is probably the direction I'd head.

Mean while, This close to the early elk season, I'll continue on with the 47.5gr charge of H335 and expect the same results as in past seasons even though the groups may not be quite as small as I'd really like.

Considering I'll not be taking any 400yds shots at game with this rifle, I'll get er done.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[TXGunNut]

Nice thread, CDOC, food for thought but with your help I already found a 45-70 hunting load my GG really likes. I had hoped to answer your question about the IMR and H 4895 powders being different but after checking my notes I realized I have never tested them head to head, don't even own a can of H4895. :veryconfu Turns out I was comparing IMR and H 4350 in the 35 Whelen and between those two there is indeed a difference.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Thanks GunNut!

CDOC

[Idaho Mule]

Lay her down close to the road, and have the cooler fired up. It's gonna be hot. Just out of curiosity, have you tried Varget? Too late for an extensive test before Aug. 1 for sure, but maybe (??) something to look at. JW

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Hey Mule,

I think I have, but will need to check the files.

Wife ended up a Gritman this afternoon, so will be a day or two before I GET BACK TO IT!

We were up country a bit from Kendrick for a family get together and I think the heat got to her.

One test looked a bit funny, so they want to do some additional tests in the morning.

Just got home, so see ya later!

Have I told you I really hate hot weather?

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Idaho Mule]

Crusty, I hope wife is ok. I agree on hating hot weather. I was able to work early am. yesterday and today but ended up working past noon today. I am helping a neighbor and good friend finish up his hay. Varget is an interesting powder to me, it does real well for me in 303 Brit. I tried it in my 11.7 x 56 Rolling Block but I can't remember results except it wasn't what I as after in that situation. You are looking at something higher pressure/vel. and I can't help but wonder if it do you any good or not. Take care and stay cool. JW

[tomon]

Anyone have any testing with a 378gr GC 45-70 bullet using IMR 4895? I have a bunch of it to burn up. I've been using 21 grains of 2400. First loading was good, but second loading slightly less accurate. Of course, It could be me, and not the rifle/load combination! I am shooting a Pedersoli Rolling Block rifle.