The 1911 Is DEAD?? HUH????

[DougGuy]

Who was it recently quoted an authority on gun trends and they said the 1911 is dead and done and overdone, yada yada..

I was at the store today killing a few minutes while GF shopped, and I browsed by the magazine racks. They had all the gun rags, and would you believe that no fewer than 6 of them featured 1911s or variants thereof on their cover! 3 or 4 of those featured a GI 1911A1 with no bells and whistles, no extended this or serrated that. One had a very nice chronology of the 1911, complete with a 1913 photo of U.S. Marines training with M1912 holsters and 1911 pistols. I thought it was pretty neat.

The reality of the current state of affairs sunk in when I thumbed through the yellow/orangeish magazine that is ONLY 1911s, and did not see hardly ANY that I liked. Yes they were nice, extremely cool machining and extremely cool refinements of custom parts and grips, mostly made for customers with extremely deep pockets. They were works of art in metal, and whoever thought for a nanosecond that the 1911 was dead obviously hasn't kept up with the format as it to this day is still at the forefront of defensive combat sidearms and it gave me a little smile to know that for my own choosing, a bone stock GI .45 is what walks the beat in this household.

John Moses Browning got it right the first time. You just gotta love a GI .45!

[dougader]

He got it right the 2nd time, too. Browning Hi-Power and a 1911 and I'm good to go!

[kens]

What kills me is that the 1911 patent ran out decades ago, and, it has been cloned, copied, and remade so many millions of times that it SHOULD be a cheap gun.
But, it aint cheap, it is still holding a higher price than the Glory guns like the Glock.
Just look at SigSaur, they are a world renowned gun maker in their own right, and even THEY are cloning the 1911.
Why does Sig have to clone a 1911 when they got their own good stuff??????

Is the 1911 just so good that it still justifies the price?
Is it flattery that it is still cloned so much?

[376Steyr]

I didn't see the statement in question, but I bet it went on to sing the praises of a Turkish copy of an Italian pistol based on a Czech design, printed directly across from a full page ad for said pistol.:roll:

[white eagle]

"They were works of art in metal, and whoever thought for a nanosecond that the 1911 was dead obviously hasn't kept up with the format as it to this day is still at the forefront of defensive combat sidearms and it gave me a little smile to know that for my own choosing, a bone stock GI .45 is what walks the beat in this household."

Whomever uttered that statement probably is of the same thought process as the guy who said that black rifles are for terrorists and have no business in the game fields

[Char-Gar]

What kills me is that the 1911 patent ran out decades ago, and, it has been cloned, copied, and remade so many millions of times that it SHOULD be a cheap gun.
But, it aint cheap, it is still holding a higher price than the Glory guns like the Glock.
Just look at SigSaur, they are a world renowned gun maker in their own right, and even THEY are cloning the 1911.
Why does Sig have to clone a 1911 when they got their own good stuff??????

Is the 1911 just so good that it still justifies the price?
Is it flattery that it is still cloned so much?

Oh, I dunno. Here is my Norinco 1911A1. I changed out the sights, barrel and trigger and still have less than $350 in all total. Darn good pistol to boot.

[HiVelocity]

DougGuy-

I don't think 1911's are a dead issue; in fact, over the past 6 months I've acquired 3. I love them all. And, NO, they're not all tricked out customs. In fact they're all steel plain Jane's that had "enhancements" added by both the previous owners, and me (on one). If anything, I think 1911's are making a come back over polymer handguns. I have a great time shooting 2 in particular with the after-market .22LR conversion I picked up along the way.

For me; its the best of both worlds. I cast for, and handload, for the 45 ACP and several other calibers. My thoughts are, if the 1911 survived, successfully, over 100+ years, then its good for me too. I can't think of a better weapon in a desert, or jungle, shoot-out.

HV

[kens]

DougGuy- If anything, I think 1911's are making a come back over polymer handguns. My thoughts are, if the 1911 survived, successfully, over 100+ years, then its good for me too. I can't think of a better weapon in a desert, or jungle, shoot-out.

HV

How can it be then, if the 1911 is so darned good, then how did the polymer wonder nines get such a firm grip on sales in the last 20 years?
Remember when the Glock was introduced,? it was superior to anything else, right?? (anything includes 1911)
Well, now some 40 years later, the largest display in a glass case at gunstore is all the flavors of 1911's.
How can this be????
How can the 1911's be so good when the plastic 9's are superior?

[waksupi]

How can it be then, if the 1911 is so darned good, then how did the polymer wonder nines get such a firm grip on sales in the last 20 years?
Remember when the Glock was introduced,? it was superior to anything else, right?? (anything includes 1911)
Well, now some 40 years later, the largest display in a glass case at gunstore is all the flavors of 1911's.
How can this be????
How can the 1911's be so good when the plastic 9's are superior?


They are not superior. They were marketed to people unfamiliar with firearms, with little or no shooting skills, ie; urban police and military.

[wonderwolf]

Plastic 40's seem more prevelant than the 9's at least in my neck of the woods. Whoever "authority" said the 1911 is dead is not an authority then, Sounds like they are actually setting themselves up about like that one guy who was a writer for a gun magazine about 10 years ago that said something like "Americans do not need high capacity magazines" and he pretty much toasted his career in that one sentence.

1911's are a staple in American handgun culture, its the workhorse of the realm. It appeals to everybody like a 1947 Ford club coupe, to the old crowd...its what they drove, to baby boomers its what they drove in high school (and were probably concieved in) to the new kids its just a cool old world car with character. The 1911 is classic, its simple, its cartridge is well known and its everywhere in pop culture from the day it was conceived to today. But like a classic car if you want one in all its show glory you're going to pay Barrett-Jackson auction type prices, but if you're gonna shoot the dang thing go norinco or my personal favorite Rock Island and shoot the snot out of it, I've sure put mine through its paces enough I've warn the finish off around the grip and thats just from PPC matches. Mine was the 2nd handgun I ever bought when I was only 18 (10 years ago)....my best friend (same age) also purchased a Desert Eagle .44 mag at that same show.....great times :)

[kens]

quote:
It appeals to everybody like a 1947 Ford club coupe, to the old crowd...its what they drove, to baby boomers its what they drove in high school (and were probably concieved in) to the new kids its just a cool old world car with character."

OK, I resemble that remark. So how exactly are the new kids viewing the 1911. Are the new kids buying that old school thing, or buying the new plastic frame stuff.??
My basic question is, what will be in the gun safes of the new kids growing up right now, will they have the 1911, or the plastics?

In a similar way look at all the guns exchanged at gun shows lately. Seems everything exchanged at gun shows now, is a black plastic stocked AR platform of some sort.
Where has all the exotic Walnut stocked guns gone? This is something you don't see anymore, do you?
Just like all the walnut stocked rifles are seemingly gone, where will the 1911 be in 15 years from now?

[Southron]

I have said for a long time now: "If the Good Lord had intended for man to shoot plastic pistols, John M. Browning would have designed one!"

Amen.

[Jupiter7]

Ummm.... The military model m1911 was not JMB's first vision of the gun. It was a revision after input from the military. No thumb safety and in 38ACP was how it started. But the man was a genius and got the "improvements" made and implemented well. I like lots of different 1911's. Got a poly 40 STI and it's a laser beam.

[kens]

Why has the Browning Hi-Power not survived such as the 1911 has???

[wonderwolf]

quote:
It appeals to everybody like a 1947 Ford club coupe, to the old crowd...its what they drove, to baby boomers its what they drove in high school (and were probably concieved in) to the new kids its just a cool old world car with character."

OK, I resemble that remark. So how exactly are the new kids viewing the 1911. Are the new kids buying that old school thing, or buying the new plastic frame stuff.??
My basic question is, what will be in the gun safes of the new kids growing up right now, will they have the 1911, or the plastics?

In a similar way look at all the guns exchanged at gun shows lately. Seems everything exchanged at gun shows now, is a black plastic stocked AR platform of some sort.
Where has all the exotic Walnut stocked guns gone? This is something you don't see anymore, do you?
Just like all the walnut stocked rifles are seemingly gone, where will the 1911 be in 15 years from now?

AR's sell..you can swap parts out all day long on them and make the same rifle fit many uses. That appeals to the new kids who get bored with long range matches and want to try 3 gun matches. Walnut stocked rifles are still at shows and trust me when I say they still sell and are bought pretty regularly by both young and old a lot of African class chambered rifles especially in the last 2 years at least at the shows I've set up at. 1911's will still have a following in 15 years, though I see 9mm 1911's and maybe .38 super being far more popular then as .45ACP factory ammo prices are scary to say the least. I know I would like a .22TCM Rock island single stack with a 9mm conversion (and a .38 super if they offered all 3 in one?) someday.

The other issue with the 1911 is that most guys don't carry a full frame 1911 as their CCW peice. I simply CAN'T at least in the summer, I'm 155lbs of muscle and bone and its hard enough to conceal my LCR or Bulldog, so most 1 gun guys don't go with a 1911 because of that...even if they wanted to. Also you carry a gun for X number of hours in a day and you feel its weight pretty quick. Polymer is lighter...no its not steel and walnut but to each his own, When I open carry its either my 1911 full frame in a shark skin (no joke) holster custom made by a LEO friend of mine, or a wheel gun in something with far more umph. Don't worry the 1911 wont go anywhere......and if it does that Match master will be offered to be traded for a kel-tec .380 acp to some old guy with a gleam in their eye....seems fair :)

[wonderwolf]

Why has the Browning Hi-Power not survived such as the 1911 has???
Not as much to tinker with on them and 9mm hasn't always been as popular/available as it is now if the stories I hear from retired LEO's and older class 3 guys are true.

I know my dad had a heck of a time finding 9mm brass when he loaded practice ammo for our local police department WAAAAAAY back when.

[Bigslug]

John Moses Browning got it right the first time.

Actually, as far as the locked breeches go, there was the Colt 1900, 1902, 1905, 1907, 1909, and 1910, so John actually got it right the SEVENTH time.

That pretty much no one else has gotten it right SINCE is the real puzzlement.

[Mtnfolk75]

I looked at a Rock Island 1911 in .38 Super yesterday. Whats not to like for CCW, 9+1 in a flat & thin pistol. Now I just need to convince SWMBO ...... :grin:

[GoodOlBoy]

The same guy that will tell you 1911s are dead will tell you a 30-30 won't kill deer anymore. At that point your best bet is to just smile, and move on before whatever brain cell killing malfunction he has spreads...

GoodOlBoy

[Lonegun1894]

Anyone that tells me that my 1911 is dead better have paperwork that proves they passed a drug test within the last 5 minutes, otherwise I will just assume that they're either high on something or just plain old stupid. Now there's a lot of other designs out there that work great, but the 1911 got passed down from God to the Prophet JMB as the 11th Commandment. The first Ten Commandments work and all, but the list the first Moses brought down from the mountain just wasn't complete til JMB completed it.

[knifemaker]

141449141450Here is the reason they are not dead. Colt National Match 1911 that was my duty gun. S&W 1911 with full accuracy work. Both targets at 25 yards. Colt NM is 8 rounds hand held over sand bags with 200 gr. HP high velocity load. S&W 1911 target is also 8 rounds Federal Gold Match ammo at 25 yards, but fired from a Ransom rest . That small 8 round group can be covered with a nickel. It was my match gun for IDPA matches. Both guns super reliable with over 800-1000 rounds each with no failures to feed or extract.

[Driver man]

Oh, I dunno. Here is my Norinco 1911A1. I changed out the sights, barrel and trigger and still have less than $350 in all total. Darn good pistol to boot.
I like mine too. Really enjoy shooting it.

[kens]

I like mine too. Really enjoy shooting it.
I also have a Norinco, I wish we could get more of them.

[Petrol & Powder]

Why has the Browning Hi-Power not survived such as the 1911 has???

The Browning Hi-Power started as John Browning's idea but he died long before the design was finished. Dieudonne Saive, a student of John Browning, completed the design. Many of the pistol's features, like the double stack magazine, were the result of Saive's work and not Browning's. Notwithstanding the design's lineage, it is an excellent pistol.
In general, 9mm pistols were slow to gain acceptance in the U.S.A. but the Hi-Power was widely distributed throughout the rest of the world. The Browning Hi-Power was deeply entrenched outside of the U.S. and was a very popular pistol.
As the 9mm cartridge gained acceptance in the U.S. the Hi-Power enjoyed a resurgence in popularity but it was already long established as a fine pistol at that time. The Hi-Power was adopted by a large number of NATO counties as their primary military pistol and it was seen in use in just about every non-communist country outside of the U.S.

I would say that it survived Very well.

[375supermag]

Well, 191s aren't dead around here. I have two, a full-size Springfield Armory and a Colt Combat Commander and they are my primary carry guns. Both in .45ACP.

My 21-year old son is looking to buy a new handgun. He is looking for a Rock Island 1911 in 10mm. He really likes the 1911-platform, he just wants to try a different caliber...I have never owned a 10mm. He seems pretty serious about it...he nearly bought a set of 10mm reloading dies yesterday. I convinced him to wait until he bought the gun.

[DougGuy]

The 10mm in the 1911 is -the- magic feeding boolit. No other caliber feeds as smoothly as the 10.

Now... Had they made the .45 ACP another .100" longer, they could say the same thing about it.

[FergusonTO35]

1911's are more alive than ever, people can't get enough of them. In a similar vein, I would say that the .45-70 cartridge is more popular now than it ever has been, even more than in the days of buffalo hunting and the indian wars. What is interesting is how neither 1911's nor anything chambered in .45-70 are cheap to shoot or considered the cutting edge of technology. Some things they just get right the first time around!

[lefty o]

The Browning Hi-Power started as John Browning's idea but he died long before the design was finished. Dieudonne Saive, a student of John Browning, completed the design. Many of the pistol's features, like the double stack magazine, were the result of Saive's work and not Browning's. Notwithstanding the design's lineage, it is an excellent pistol.
In general, 9mm pistols were slow to gain acceptance in the U.S.A. but the Hi-Power was widely distributed throughout the rest of the world. The Browning Hi-Power was deeply entrenched outside of the U.S. and was a very popular pistol.
As the 9mm cartridge gained acceptance in the U.S. the Hi-Power enjoyed a resurgence in popularity but it was already long established as a fine pistol at that time. The Hi-Power was adopted by a large number of NATO counties as their primary military pistol and it was seen in use in just about every non-communist country outside of the U.S.

I would say that it survived Very well.

actually the patents for the gun were filed before browning died, and under his name. there's no doubt saive had some influence on the cosmetic side of the pistol, but everything else is pure browning.

[Petrol & Powder]

actually the patents for the gun were filed before browning died, and under his name. there's no doubt saive had some influence on the cosmetic side of the pistol, but everything else is pure browning.

I'll differ with that a bit. The P-35, or Browning Hi-Power as we know it was almost entirely designed by Saive. The idea of the Hi-Power came from John Browning around 1922 but most of the development was the work of Saive. I know that comes across as blasphemous to some but it is the truth.
John M. Browning died on November 26, 1926. The early patents for the Hi-Power showed a striker fired pistol and that patent was issued on 2/22/27, several months after John Browning's death. Saive continued to improve upon the work started by Browning and a prototype from November 1928 was very close to the final P-35 pistol. John Browning had been dead for two years at that point.

I believe John M. Browning was one of the greatest firearms designers of all time. In no way do I wish to take away from his incredible achievements nor do I wish to shift credit for his work to others. The Browning Hi-Power is a great design and Browning deserves credit for the birth of that idea but the fact remains that Saive is largely responsible for what ultimately became the Hi-Power as we know it.
It does appear that for marketing purposes, FN attempted to capitalize on John Browning's name after his death. They may have chosen to quote patent dates prior to his death in an attempt to tie his good name to one of their most lucrative products.

I cite as my source, "Handguns of the World" by Edward C. Ezzell, copyright 1981 ISBN 0-88029-618-6
Most of the information concerning the development of the Hi-Power can be found in Chapter 5

[Piedmont]

Browning died in 1926 if memory serves and the pistol is called the P35. The prototype looks a lot different than the finished product.

I asked a large dealer at a gun show about 10 years ago why he didn't have any Hi Powers since I was and am a fan. "To heavy. They don't sell." And now they are expensive, too.

[Petrol & Powder]

One of the early patents connected to the Hi-Power:

US Patent 1618510 : was applied for on June 28, 1923 : and granted on February 22, 1927

It was clearly applied for prior to JMB's death but it wasn't issued until after he died and before the Hi-power design had matured.

[Petrol & Powder]

Browning died in 1926 if memory serves and the pistol is called the P35. The prototype looks a lot different than the finished product.................


True, JMB died on 11/26/26. FN was almost ready to begin production of the Hi-Power in 1929 but there was that little problem of the great depression. FN started production in 1934 and the pistol was adopted by the Belgian Army in 1935, hence the designation P-35.

[Bigslug]

Ibut the fact remains that Saive is largely responsible for what ultimately became the Hi-Power as we know it.
It does appear that for marketing purposes, FN attempted to capitalize on John Browning's name after his death. They may have chosen to quote patent dates prior to his death in an attempt to tie his good name to one of their most lucrative products.


Pretty much this.

Saive was no dummy to be sure, having an impressive array of quality hardware to his name, but the Hi Power itself as a mechanism. . .not really even a pimple on the 1911's rump. Certainly, any arms designer has to bow to the whims of his customer to varying degrees, but there's a lot going on in the fire control of the P-35 that makes me go "whaaaaat?" You want options for pimped-out 1911's? Take your pick from thousands of choices. Same options for a Hi Power? You may not be surrounded by chirping crickets, but you can certainly hear them from there. The guts are just not as friendly to wrenching on.

But back to the whims of the customer, I think a lot of the credit for the 1911's brilliance has to go to John T. Thompson and his Ordnance minions that were providing guidance to Browning and Colt with regards to who a Weapon of War is going to be used by, and what traits said Weapon of War needs to encapsulate. You don't have to be into guns to read the accounts of the 1900's U.S. pistol trials and walk away thinking "Why can't government work like that all the time?" Uncle Sam said; "This is what we want", invited a bunch of players to bring their pistols, evaluated and beat the stuffing out of them for a couple months, scratched their heads and said; "We like this, this, and this, and we don't like that, that, and that. Make some more guns and we'll meet back here in six months". The end result is a product that for the last hundred years has only been "improved" upon by making the basic mechanism cheaper rather than better. As Jeff Cooper said, it remains the handgun of choice among those who understand the problem.

[Went2kck]

I own a sig 1911. Love shooting it. Hate picking up and not finding all the brass.
So I made a brass catcher that hooks on forearm works pretty good to.

[garym1a2]

The 1911 is not dead, it's only obsolete! Many better and more reliable 45's than the 1911, one being a Glock 21SF.

[gray wolf]

I think I will keep mine a while longer Eh.

[Skipper]

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/a/a6/SpringfieldArmoryM1911.jpg/235px-SpringfieldArmoryM1911.jpg

The 1911.....it's like a Glock for men.

[shoot-n-lead]

The 1911 is not dead, it's only obsolete! Many better and more reliable 45's than the 1911, one being a Glock 21SF.

I know, it being unreliable and obsolete explains why you can hardly give one away.

Give us a break...if they didn't work, people would not buy them. Do you honestly not understand that?

[fatnhappy]

Many better and more reliable 45's than the 1911

Having been thoroughly vetted in every nook and cranny on Earth, during the worst murderous wars in the history of man: you may have set a new bar for internet hyperbole.

I like my commander. It goes bang every time. I think I'll keep it.

[Lonegun1894]

The 1911 is not dead, it's only obsolete! Many better and more reliable 45's than the 1911, one being a Glock 21SF.

Hold on everyone, he may have a point. I can think of two advantages a Glock has over a 1911. It has higher capacity, which is necessary due to the Glocks lower standard for accuracy, and the Glock is also so dang ugly it is almost theft-proof. And I own both Glocks and 1911s, so no one can say that this is coming from someone who hasn't used both. Ok, who else can think of an advantage the Glock has, cause my short list is above.

[M-Tecs]

One more advantage to a Glock. You don't feel bad when you sell it!!!!!!!

[Lonegun1894]

I bought mine so I would have a tough gun that was reliable and shot fairly well, but I didn't feel bad using as a kayaking/fishing gun where it may get wet and stay wet all day long--and I don't like it enough to worry.

[Petrol & Powder]

Wow, less than 50 posts and it reverted to a Glock vs. 1911 thread. Didn't see that that coming.:wink:

[JSnover]

I was into dinosaurs as a kid. I guess I still am...

[wonderwolf]

I have a friend who has a double stack 1911, and when you're used to 8+1 and you shoot something that holds like 14+1 rounds iirc its kind of like WOW. He went with the double stack because he has large hands, his reloads are not the greatest but that gun eats them up like candy. Something also I think the thin 1911 sights are great, small poppers at 50 yards is doable, try that with any of these guns that have the big block sights and you may find the sometimes heavy trigger pull paired with a light polymer frame and the 45ACP might be too much for consistency. I know yesterday at a 3 gun match our pistol director was cussing his glock and considering sending it down the road because of small plates at longer ranges, the glock shoots well but when the sights cover the whole plate and then some. I've seen him clean plates up fast with a 1911 no problem.

[kens]

Wow, less than 50 posts and it reverted to a Glock vs. 1911 thread. Didn't see that that coming.:wink:
Why compare the Glock to a .45???
Why not compare Glock to a Hi-Power.???
If you compare apples to apples then both of them should be 9mm, correct?

[GhostHawk]

I will admit that for 50 some years I really did not understand the allure of the 1911 and the .45acp.

Then my Father in law expressed a desire to hold one again. (Korean war Veteran, saw action at Chosen)

Well I went looking for an affordable 1911 and found one that looks GI stock in a Springfield Armory 1911a1 in .45acp.

He has spent more than a few happy hours just sitting there holding that pistol. He has Parkinson's pretty bad and it takes a real effort of will for him to raise it at arm's length.

Well I was not going to have a gun in the house I didn't know how to shoot so I bought some ammo, some brass, a mold, dies, sizer and started loading and shooting for it.

Of the 4 pistols I have or have access to, it is by far my favorite, hands down.

I did back the powder charge down a bit over time, I'm shooting an even 4 grains of Red Dot under a Lee .452 228 grain bullet. And at 20 feet I can put 8 in a coffee cup sized group. On a good day down to pop can sized.

It was/is a little intimidating. First time shooters, I suggest that you be sitting down. Take a deep breath, then reach way down inside, and take a GOOD holt of your intestinal fortitude, then FIRMLY grasp the 1911, aim and fire it.

It won't break your arm, as soon as it goes off get your finger OFF the trigger. Trigger on mine is as near to perfect as I think they make them. But it is easy if you don't know the gun to put a second shot into the ceiling.

I'll never sell that gun.
Someday I hope to be able to put it into my grandson's hands. Explain who his great grandfather is and was. How he got drafted right out of high school. Because he was a farm boy he ended up driving a Cat supporting a rock crusher which I can only assume was part of the process of building the runway up in that God forsaken country. He had one wild night of combat, he started out with 3 guys humping ammo to him. Burned out 2 barrels of his .30 cal machine gun till it would not fire any more. Then taking up his M1 Garand he shot it until it got so hot that he couldn't hold it. He says he went through 8 Garand's that night, and I belive him. The next day he was airlifted out when they finished the runway enough for planes to land and take off again.

I hope to be lucky enough to teach my grandson to shoot it, if not well at least competently. I think I could go peacefully if I knew he was prepared and had the tools to take care of himself and his family.

[Geraldo]

Why is the 1911 still around? Try carrying a big plastic .45 IWB and you'll come to appreciate the 1911.

[sghart3578]

When you consider the popularity of Glocks/polymer guns and wonder how it happened you can't discount the simple act of rebellion.

When plastic guns appeared they were new, that alone appealed to young guys. But the fact that they WERE NOT their father's gun was really all it took. A son wants to be different from his father to demonstrate that he can be his own man.

Funny, and a simplistic explanation, but valid I think.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

At the range yesterday a pard said had been at the Texas Ranger museum and the Rangers like Colt SAA's and 1911's.. richly engraved. He said these engraved guns didn't look like bbq gun either, they were work guns.

[youngmman]

The only ones who say the 1911 is dead are the gun writers who need something to say and want to stimulate conversation. Evidence the length of this thread.

I cast for, load for, and shoot several 1911's. It doesn't look to me like they are going anywhere and certainly not being replaced by any "plastic" guns no matter what the hype is surrounding them although most have some nitch to fill no matter how small. Gun makers encourage this sort of thing so they can sell more guns even when there is not a "Genuine" need.

Ok, let the rocks fly.

[John Allen]

I guess I am going to have to sell all my 1911's now that they are dead (sarcasm intended)

[Lonegun1894]

You could just send em to me for their burial, um, uh, I mean disposal, uh, retirement? :)

[lefty o]

I have a friend who has a double stack 1911, and when you're used to 8+1 and you shoot something that holds like 14+1 rounds iirc its kind of like WOW. He went with the double stack because he has large hands, his reloads are not the greatest but that gun eats them up like candy. Something also I think the thin 1911 sights are great, small poppers at 50 yards is doable, try that with any of these guns that have the big block sights and you may find the sometimes heavy trigger pull paired with a light polymer frame and the 45ACP might be too much for consistency. I know yesterday at a 3 gun match our pistol director was cussing his glock and considering sending it down the road because of small plates at longer ranges, the glock shoots well but when the sights cover the whole plate and then some. I've seen him clean plates up fast with a 1911 no problem.

sights are pretty easy to change! lol

[ole 5 hole group]

141659

This is what you want for your 1911 sights. Just takes a milled slide and your favorite red dot. And NO the 1911 isn't dead or even on it's last days - its alive & well and will be so, to the bitter end.

[garym1a2]

For serious use (Military and Police) the 1911 is dead. 60 to 70 percent of Police use went Glock. Military decided years ago the 92 was better than the 1911.


I know, it being unreliable and obsolete explains why you can hardly give one away.

Give us a break...if they didn't work, people would not buy them. Do you honestly not understand that?

[Tazman1602]

.45 ACP -- Because shooting twice is just silly. I have four and wish I had five...........still haven't managed to come up with the stainless Kimber I really lust after....

141666

[Lonegun1894]

For serious use (Military and Police) the 1911 is dead. 60 to 70 percent of Police use went Glock. Military decided years ago the 92 was better than the 1911.

So what if I told you that I use either a 1911 (in .45, of course) or a Ruger Security Six .357 as my duty weapon in an area where my backup is somewhere between 20 minutes and 1.5 HOURS away, depending on which neighboring agency has someone they can send to help, and IF they have anyone on duty at all? And 1/2 to 2/3 of my patrol area doesn't get either radio or cellphone reception. Most agencies that issue Glocks either do so because they don't trust their people to practice and stay proficient, or do so because the Glock is cheaper than the 1911 and holds more rounds. How many officers who practice, have the option of what to carry, and have to pay for their own gun and ammo, choose to carry a Glock over a 1911? In my area, given the option, and being told to pay for it themselves, at least 50% carry 1911s. Now most big agencies issue Glocks, you're right there, but that is a matter of cost for most of them.

[John Allen]

.45 ACP -- Because shooting twice is just silly. I have four and wish I had five...........still haven't managed to come up with the stainless Kimber I really lust after....

141666


Same here I can not get enough of them. I have them in 9mm, 40sw and of course 45acp. I would love to have a 10mm but so far have not found one that is reasonable.

[pmer]

141708

Here is a 1911 making it happen at 45 paces. Pretty small target when it is just their head and shoulders sticking up over the mound. Got a rattler and a couple dogs with it on a recent trip. Glocks are fun too but these dogs are gone before I can get enough shots out to hit one with a G30.

[daniel lawecki]

The 1911 will live on and on. I shoot .45acp 1911 one Colt and a Springfield 1911A1. I'm not into the Technical Tupperware Guns being old school at 59 plastic belongs on squirt guns. this was not said to stir the pot just my thoughts.:kidding:

[Thumbcocker]

Sounds like a rehash of the 1980's gun rag articles " Who Needs the .30-06", ".308 vs .3006" ".30-30 is obsolete" "9mm vs. .45 acp" .44 mag is obsolete ant the latest tactical sniper, milspec, Spetznatz, Waffen SS like (insert name or type of gun) is the pinnacle of firearms achievement and all your current guns are no good anymore.


Don't subscribe to them things anymore.

[quickdraw66]

What kills me is that the 1911 patent ran out decades ago, and, it has been cloned, copied, and remade so many millions of times that it SHOULD be a cheap gun.
But, it aint cheap, it is still holding a higher price than the Glory guns like the Glock.

No they are not. Some of the fancier models can be, but there are a few very good 1911s that can be had for around $400-$500 brand new.


Just look at SigSaur, they are a world renowned gun maker in their own right, and even THEY are cloning the 1911.
Why does Sig have to clone a 1911 when they got their own good stuff??????

Because they sell like hot cakes. S&W, Ruger, Remington, and Springfield Armory all make them too because they are popular and they sell.


Is the 1911 just so good that it still justifies the price?
Is it flattery that it is still cloned so much?

Are they worth the price? ABSOLUTELY. Flattery? No. It's one of the best designs in history, and is one of the most popular guns as well. People want them, so they will continue to sell like crazy.

[M-Tecs]

For serious use (Military and Police) the 1911 is dead. 60 to 70 percent of Police use went Glock. Military decided years ago the 92 was better than the 1911.

This would come as a surprise to various special force teams and the FBI Hostage Rescue unit that still use the 1911.

MEU SOC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEU(SOC)_pistol

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/meusoc.htm

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/08/09/why-the-marines-adopted-the-m45-colt-1911/

http://defensetech.org/2005/11/16/small-arms-in-iraq-what-worked-what-sucked-what-a-hoax/

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=3563

For "serious" use by the true professionals the 1911 is still very popular choice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1911_pistol

Current users in the United States[edit]

Many military and law enforcement organizations in the United States and other countries continue to use (often modified) M1911A1 pistols including Marine Corps Special Operations Command, Los Angeles Police Department SWAT. and L.A.P.D. S.I.S., the FBI Hostage Rescue Team, F.B.I. regional S.W.A.T. teams, and 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment—Delta (Delta Force).


A basic version of Smith & Wesson's SW1911 with user-installed Pachmayr grips.

M1911 by Springfield Armory, Inc. (contemporary remake of the World War II G.I. Model, parkerized).
The M1911A1 is popular among the general public in the United States for practical and recreational purposes. The pistol is commonly used for concealed carry thanks in part to a single-stack magazine (which makes for a thinner pistol that is therefore easier to conceal), personal defense, target shooting, and competition. Numerous aftermarket accessories allow users to customize the pistol to their liking. There are a growing number of manufacturers of M1911-type pistols and the model continues to be quite popular for its reliability, simplicity, and patriotic appeal. Various tactical, target, and compact models are available. Price ranges from a low end of around $400 for basic pistols imported from the Philippines or Turkey (Armscor, Tisas, Rock Island Armory, Girsan, STI Spartan, Seraphim Armoury) to more than $4,000 for the best competition or tactical versions (Wilson Combat, Ed Brown, Les Baer, Nighthawk Custom, and STI International).[22]

Due to an increased demand for M1911 pistols among Army Special Operations units, who are known to field a variety of M1911 pistols, the Army Marksmanship Unit began looking to develop a new generation of M1911s and launched the M1911-A2 project in late 2004.[2] The goal was to produce a minimum of seven variants with various sights, internal and external extractors, flat and arched mainspring housings, integral and add-on magazine wells, a variety of finishes and other options, with the idea of providing the end-user a selection from which to select the features that best fit their missions.[2] The AMU performed a well received demonstration of the first group of pistols to the Marine Corps at Quantico and various Special Operations units at Ft. Bragg and other locations.[2] The project provided a feasibility study with insight into future projects.[2] Models were loaned to various Special Operations units, the results of which are classified. An RFP was issued for a Joint Combat Pistol but it was ultimately canceled.[2] Currently units are experimenting with an M1911 platform in .40 which will incorporate lessons learned from the A2 project. Ultimately, the M1911A2 project provided a test bed for improving existing M1911s. An improved M1911 variant becoming available in the future is a possibility.[2]

The Springfield Custom Professional Model 1911A1 pistol is produced under contract by Springfield Armory for the FBI regional SWAT teams and the Hostage Rescue Team.[23] This pistol is made in batches on a regular basis by the Springfield Custom Shop, and a few examples from most runs are made available for sale to the general public at a selling price of approximately US$2,700 each.

MEU(SOC) pistol[edit]

Main article: MEU(SOC) pistol

Marine Expeditionary Units formerly issued M1911s to Force Recon units.[24] Hand-selected Colt M1911A1 frames were gutted, deburred, and prepared for additional use by the USMC Precision Weapon Section (PWS) at Marine Corps Base Quantico.[24] They were then assembled with after-market grip safeties, ambidextrous thumb safeties, triggers, improved high-visibility sights, accurized barrels, grips, and improved Wilson magazines.[25] These hand-made pistols were tuned to specifications and preferences of end users.[26]

In the late 1980s, the Marines laid out a series of specifications and improvements to make Browning's design ready for 21st century combat, many of which have been included in MEU (SOC) pistol designs, but design and supply time was limited.[26] Discovering that the Los Angeles Police Department was pleased with their special Kimber M1911 pistols, a single source request was issued to Kimber for just such a pistol despite the imminent release of their TLE/RLII models.[27] Kimber shortly began producing a limited number of what would be later termed the Interim Close Quarters Battle pistol (ICQB). Maintaining the simple recoil assembly, 5-inch barrel (though using a stainless steel match grade barrel), and internal extractor, the ICQB is not much different from Browning's original design.[27]

In late July 2012, the U.S. Marines placed a $22.5 million order for 12,000 M1911 pistols for MEU(SOC) forces.[4] The new 1911 was designated M45A1 or "Close Quarters Battle Pistol" CQBP. The M45A1 features a dual recoil spring assembly, Picatinny rails and is cerakoted tan in color.

http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/m45a1-a-new-colt-45-for-the-21st-century/

http://www.colt.com/Catalog/LawEnforcement/Products/ColtM1070CQBPM45A1.aspx

http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/the-return-of-the-m1911-45-acp/

Yep --- no serious use for the 1911 anymore!!!!!!!!

[quickdraw66]

The 1911 is not dead, it's only obsolete! Many better and more reliable 45's than the 1911, one being a Glock 21SF.

Can I buy some crack from you?

The reliability claim is complete and total BS. I've seen plenty of Glocks fail big time. The only time my 1911 has failed is from either bad ammo, or a bad magazine, neither of which were the gun's fault. Obsolete? Here's a little something I'm sure you'll hate. Here's a link that lays out which guns sell best on gunbroker. Guess what? The Glock hasn't been #1 in sales in quite some time. The 1911 almost always outsells it on the worlds largest online gun market place. If it's so obsolete, then why it is outselling Glock?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Content/Top5/2015-04-GunBroker-Top-5-Guns.html

2013

December
1911 - #2 (Colt)
Glock - Not in top 5

2014

January
1911 - #5 (Colt)
Glock - #4 (42)

February
1911 - #2 (Sig), #3 (Colt)
Glock - Not in top 5

(change in format)

March
1911 - #1 new (Sig), #1 used (Colt)
Glock - Not in top 5 new, #3 used (22)

April
1911 - #1 new (Sig), #1 used (Colt)
Glock - Not in top 5 new, #4 used (22)

May
1911 - #1 new (Sig), #1 used (Colt)
Glock - Not in top 5 new, #3 used (22)

June
1911 - #1 new (Sig), #1 used (Colt)
Glock - Not in top 5 new, #3 used (17)

July
1911 - #1 new (Sig), #1 used (Colt)
Glock - #5 new (19), #2 used (22)

August
1911 - #3 new (Sig), #1 used (Colt)
Glock - #4 new (19), #5 used (22)

September
1911 - #2 new (Sig), #1 used (Colt)
Glock - Not in top 5 new, #5 used (22)

October
1911 - #2 new (Sig), #1 used (Colt)
Glock - Not in top 5 new, #3 used (22)

November
1911 - #2 new (Sig), #5 new (Colt), #1 used (Colt)
Glock - Not in top 5 new, #4 used (22)

December
1911 - #2 new (Sig), #3 new (Para), #2 used (Colt)
Glock - #4 new (19), #4 used (22)

2015

January
1911 - #2 new (Sig), #2 used (Colt)
Glock - #4 new (19), #4 used (22)

February
1911 - #3 new (Sig), #2 used (Colt)
Glock - #5 new (19), #5 used (22)

March
1911 - #4 new (Colt), #1 used (Colt)
Glock - Not in top 5 new, #3 used (22)

April
1911 - #5 new (Colt), #2 used (Colt)
Glock - Not in top 5 new, #3 used (22)

[Brett Ross]

I went shooting the other day with a young coworker. He went to set up the target and ask how far out I wanted it, I replied 25 yards. He said I was crazy and there was no way I could be any king of accurate from there. Well I pulled out the Ruger 1911 and proceded to lay 7 in about a 5 inch group standing. He could not believe it as his glock could put only a few on paper. I handed him the 1911 and his 7 were not as tight as mine but all were on the paper. He is now looking for one of those "old obosolete" 1911s.

[Bigslug]

Some insights as to the "WHY" the 1911 continues to be popular:

1. "IT'S A WEAPON, STUPID!!!" Virtually every handgun designed since WWI incorporates one or several mechanisms intended to keep the ignorant, inattentive, careless, or complacent individual from putting a hole in someone or something he doesn't intend to. Even the 1911 gives a nod to this class of folks in the form of the grip safety. The difference is that while the first and foremost design criteria of the 1911 was to produce a durable and reliable tool with which to blow the enemy out of his socks, the stuff that came later placed a greater concern on coddling the non-warrior, rear-echelon types. By itself, this would not be a bad thing, but the approaches commonly taken - most notably double-action or "safe-action" triggers that perform functions over and above firing the weapon - result in a gun that, while perhaps harder to accidentally fire, is harder to hit what you're aiming for. It may be urban legend, but there's a story of a Russian soldier who came to America after the USSR breakup and became a firearm instructor. On explaining the operational doctrine of the Tokarev to a class, one student said "that sounds pretty dangerous" at which point the instructor said "Is GUN!!! SUPPOSED to be dangerous!!" Can't say it much better than that. The 1911 pre-dates a world ruled by lawyers, and as such, hasn't had it's edge blunted.

2. What you are likely to break, you can probably fix. Consider the world into which the 1911 was born. No faxing orders so you can get spare parts on the next C17. First off, it was designed for that reality and is a tank because of it, unlike the current milquetoast of the planned-obsolescence age where it just has to hang around for ten years. In that day, if you had spare parts on hand from Colt, great. If not, your unit's got horses, right? Those horses need a blacksmith, right? It may not have been very likely that you'd have a guy pounding out a replacement extractor over a coal furnace and spring-tempering it, but the fact is the talent pool was there, and the design would allow for it.

3. Service life. So many of the modern guns generally inspired by the tilting barrel Browning system tout the removal of the barrel bushing and link as "improvements". Guess what relatively cheap parts you can replace to improve the 1911's lockup, or keep it acceptable as the pistol wears? Yep. . . they "improved" it all right; it costs them (the manufacturers) less to make a gun that you (the customer) will have to replace more often. Great improvement for their bottom line. For you and me, not so much.

[waksupi]

The Glock is for those who do not have the capacity or will to learn how to operate a real pistol.

But, I repeat myself.

I've had a Glock. I'd rather have a Hi Point.

[DougGuy]

I went shooting the other day with a young coworker. He went to set up the target and ask how far out I wanted it, I replied 25 yards. He said I was crazy and there was no way I could be any king of accurate from there. Well I pulled out the Ruger 1911 and proceded to lay 7 in about a 5 inch group standing. He could not believe it as his glock could put only a few on paper. I handed him the 1911 and his 7 were not as tight as mine but all were on the paper. He is now looking for one of those "old obosolete" 1911s.

First group out of a newly assembled WWII era GI .45 from $400 worth of assorted parts:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/1911A1/HS-LongThroat_zps8rbolkau.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/1911A1/HS-LongThroat_zps8rbolkau.jpg.html)

This is only a 10yd group fired two hands standing but hey not bad for a WWII era gun. 6" paper saucer. Stiff, gritty, unmodified trigger.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/1911A1/20150609_135931crop640_zps8jlaettg.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/1911A1/20150609_135931crop640_zps8jlaettg.jpg.html)

[garym1a2]

Its a good gun if you can afford the $2700 they quote for a decent one and have an Armory to keep them running. Plus can handle only having 8 rounds on tap.
This would come as a surprise to various special force teams and the FBI Hostage Rescue unit that still use the 1911.

MEU SOC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEU(SOC)_pistol

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/meusoc.htm

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/08/09/why-the-marines-adopted-the-m45-colt-1911/

http://defensetech.org/2005/11/16/small-arms-in-iraq-what-worked-what-sucked-what-a-hoax/

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=3563

For "serious" use by the true professionals the 1911 is still very popular choice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1911_pistol

Current users in the United States[edit]

Many military and law enforcement organizations in the United States and other countries continue to use (often modified) M1911A1 pistols including Marine Corps Special Operations Command, Los Angeles Police Department SWAT. and L.A.P.D. S.I.S., the FBI Hostage Rescue Team, F.B.I. regional S.W.A.T. teams, and 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment—Delta (Delta Force).


A basic version of Smith & Wesson's SW1911 with user-installed Pachmayr grips.

M1911 by Springfield Armory, Inc. (contemporary remake of the World War II G.I. Model, parkerized).
The M1911A1 is popular among the general public in the United States for practical and recreational purposes. The pistol is commonly used for concealed carry thanks in part to a single-stack magazine (which makes for a thinner pistol that is therefore easier to conceal), personal defense, target shooting, and competition. Numerous aftermarket accessories allow users to customize the pistol to their liking. There are a growing number of manufacturers of M1911-type pistols and the model continues to be quite popular for its reliability, simplicity, and patriotic appeal. Various tactical, target, and compact models are available. Price ranges from a low end of around $400 for basic pistols imported from the Philippines or Turkey (Armscor, Tisas, Rock Island Armory, Girsan, STI Spartan, Seraphim Armoury) to more than $4,000 for the best competition or tactical versions (Wilson Combat, Ed Brown, Les Baer, Nighthawk Custom, and STI International).[22]

Due to an increased demand for M1911 pistols among Army Special Operations units, who are known to field a variety of M1911 pistols, the Army Marksmanship Unit began looking to develop a new generation of M1911s and launched the M1911-A2 project in late 2004.[2] The goal was to produce a minimum of seven variants with various sights, internal and external extractors, flat and arched mainspring housings, integral and add-on magazine wells, a variety of finishes and other options, with the idea of providing the end-user a selection from which to select the features that best fit their missions.[2] The AMU performed a well received demonstration of the first group of pistols to the Marine Corps at Quantico and various Special Operations units at Ft. Bragg and other locations.[2] The project provided a feasibility study with insight into future projects.[2] Models were loaned to various Special Operations units, the results of which are classified. An RFP was issued for a Joint Combat Pistol but it was ultimately canceled.[2] Currently units are experimenting with an M1911 platform in .40 which will incorporate lessons learned from the A2 project. Ultimately, the M1911A2 project provided a test bed for improving existing M1911s. An improved M1911 variant becoming available in the future is a possibility.[2]

The Springfield Custom Professional Model 1911A1 pistol is produced under contract by Springfield Armory for the FBI regional SWAT teams and the Hostage Rescue Team.[23] This pistol is made in batches on a regular basis by the Springfield Custom Shop, and a few examples from most runs are made available for sale to the general public at a selling price of approximately US$2,700 each.

MEU(SOC) pistol[edit]

Main article: MEU(SOC) pistol

Marine Expeditionary Units formerly issued M1911s to Force Recon units.[24] Hand-selected Colt M1911A1 frames were gutted, deburred, and prepared for additional use by the USMC Precision Weapon Section (PWS) at Marine Corps Base Quantico.[24] They were then assembled with after-market grip safeties, ambidextrous thumb safeties, triggers, improved high-visibility sights, accurized barrels, grips, and improved Wilson magazines.[25] These hand-made pistols were tuned to specifications and preferences of end users.[26]

In the late 1980s, the Marines laid out a series of specifications and improvements to make Browning's design ready for 21st century combat, many of which have been included in MEU (SOC) pistol designs, but design and supply time was limited.[26] Discovering that the Los Angeles Police Department was pleased with their special Kimber M1911 pistols, a single source request was issued to Kimber for just such a pistol despite the imminent release of their TLE/RLII models.[27] Kimber shortly began producing a limited number of what would be later termed the Interim Close Quarters Battle pistol (ICQB). Maintaining the simple recoil assembly, 5-inch barrel (though using a stainless steel match grade barrel), and internal extractor, the ICQB is not much different from Browning's original design.[27]

In late July 2012, the U.S. Marines placed a $22.5 million order for 12,000 M1911 pistols for MEU(SOC) forces.[4] The new 1911 was designated M45A1 or "Close Quarters Battle Pistol" CQBP. The M45A1 features a dual recoil spring assembly, Picatinny rails and is cerakoted tan in color.

http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/m45a1-a-new-colt-45-for-the-21st-century/

http://www.colt.com/Catalog/LawEnforcement/Products/ColtM1070CQBPM45A1.aspx

http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/the-return-of-the-m1911-45-acp/

Yep --- no serious use for the 1911 anymore!!!!!!!!

[Lonegun1894]

When I was in, it was when they were realizing that the old ones were getting worn out and needed replacing, but before the big contracts they have now, so we were "sourcing" them from outside our armories, and allowed to choose our own based on individual preferences. I went through two issued 1911s before getting approval to buy my own. They were a Remington Rand and a Singer Sewing Machine, bpth made during WW2, and both were worn out. What I loved was our command gave us the option of paying for our own up front and then keeping it when we got out, which is what some of us did. It had multiple benefits. We got to choose and then keep our weapons, and the command got to see a variety of 1911s in different brands and configurations and see what worked and what didn't, since the only hard rule we were given was that they had to be in either 9mm or .45 to make ammo resupply easier. In a Bn of 300 troops, just shy of 100 of us chose to buy our own, and less than 10 chose the 9mm--and by the time my enlistment was over, everyone had switched to a .45. I still have my Springfield 1911A1 Loaded, and it kept me alive everywhere I got sent, and now it goes on duty with me on patrol, and off duty when out and about. It has a bit over 100K rounds through it, and I have never needed an armorer to work on it or keep it running. It is stock with the exception of replacing the necessary springs as required for general maintenance and a trigger job I did myself to bring the trigger down to 1.5#. It may have cost me a months pay when I bought it, but considering what it has gone through and gotten me through, I would call that a cheap price, and I definitely got my money's worth out of it.

Now for what it's worth, going through the police academy with my 1911, I had classmates who refused to get on the firing line next to me because of their belief that my "antique *** would blow up and kill us" and just wasn't safe like their Glocks. I'd just smile and say I'll take my chances and the instructors would just tell them that mine will be running long after theirs quit. So it was amusing when their brand new Glocks failed and needed the department armorer to fix them, and in one case replace the gun, while my beat up 1911 that had been through several deployments never jammed or had any other issues, unless you count me being a bit busier reloading than the Glock shooter were, but keeping up with their rate of fire and beating them in accuracy. Now to be fair, on the final qualification before graduation, I got a 99% score with my 1911, which put me in second place behind a Marine using a M9 who got a 100%, with 3rd place going to a Glock shooter with an 89% score. I met up with him recently, and we were both still carrying the same exact guns that we used in the old days, so if it ain't broke, why fix it?

[Lonegun1894]

Its a good gun if you can afford the $2700 they quote for a decent one and have an Armory to keep them running. Plus can handle only having 8 rounds on tap.

The one I carried on deployments cost me about $900, and is still running just fine to this day, without the need for an armorer, unless you consider me an armorer, which is a title I have never held.

[M-Tecs]

Army Rejects M9A3 Proposal, Opts for New Pistol http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/01/09/army-rejects-m9a3-proposal-opts-for-new-pistol.html

http://bearingarms.com/army-wants-new-handgun-way-can-now/2/

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/07/03/army-wants-a-harder-hitting-pistol.html

[coxa2]

I would gladly give those "obsolete" 1911's a home in my safe! Not a big polymer gun fan either.

[matrixcs]

I would gladly give those "obsolete" 1911's a home in my safe! Not a big polymer gun fan either.

I would be happy to provide a retirement home for them also....
I am sure the retirement would include an adequate exercise program..

[coxa2]

I would be happy to provide a retirement home for them also....
I am sure the retirement would include an adequate exercise program..

Yes along with baths by hand and nice oil rub downs! :lol:

[kens]

Yes along with baths by hand and nice oil rub downs! :lol:


Classic!!!!

[1911KY]

Welp, I am realatively young compared to many who post here (34) and 1911's are all I buy. I have bought 6 in the past year and half. So, if you ask me they are more than alive, they are kickin harder than ever.

Love my railed Specialist, with a 10 rd mag and rail light you have the perfect home defense pistol.

Anybody who who says the 1911 is dead, has never shot a Les Baer! Real workhorse pistol.

Many, many gunsmiths are scratchin out a livin based solely on the 1911.

[quickdraw66]

Its a good gun if you can afford the $2700 they quote for a decent one and have an Armory to keep them running. Plus can handle only having 8 rounds on tap.
Whoever told you that you need to spend even remotely that much for a good 1911 is either a liar, or ignorant about 1911s.

[str8wal]

Its a good gun if you can afford the $2700 they quote for a decent one and have an Armory to keep them running. Plus can handle only having 8 rounds on tap.

That is just plain BS. And what is the big deal about "only" having 8 rounds on tap when you can put all 8 inside 3" @ 25 yards. Spray and pray is the mantra for tupperware guns.

[str8wal]

I just watched the IPSC internationals and there were an awful lot of those "dead" 1911's being employed by the world's best handgunners.

[Love Life]

Spray and pray is the mantra for tupperware guns.

That statement is as ignorant as saying the 1911 is dead.

[garym1a2]

At USPSA matches they go down more often than most tupperware guns.

I just watched the IPSC internationals and there were an awful lot of those "dead" 1911's being employed by the world's best handgunners.

[garym1a2]

Uncle Sam thinks so for the Marines.

Whoever told you that you need to spend even remotely that much for a good 1911 is either a liar, or ignorant about 1911s.

[Lonegun1894]

Uncle Sam thinks so for the Marines.

How much does Uncle Sam spend on hammers and toilet seats though? Consider the source and how the gov spends money like they think it grows on trees.

[19Echo]

They are trying to fix something that isn't broken. What they need to fix is their brains logic receptors...LOL:D I've built thirteen 1911s for friends and shooters who want the gun to fire every time. If the trigger actuator is working correctly, the gun should go BOOM.
The same guy that will tell you 1911s are dead will tell you a 30-30 won't kill deer anymore. At that point your best bet is to just smile, and move on before whatever brain cell killing malfunction he has spreads...

GoodOlBoy

[quickdraw66]

Uncle Sam thinks so for the Marines.

Uncle Sam spends money like there is no tomorrow. The 1911s they bought were highly specialized, custom guns. Those are not necessary for the average person. A $400 1911 will function just as well without all the bells and whistles. Quit drinking the Glock koolaid, they are not the end all be all of guns, and they are quickly being overshadowed by newer polymer guns. The 1911 wasn't the only gun that's outselling them.

[Ola]

Here we used to have quite relaxed gun law. People were buying all kinds of pistols: 1911, Glock, Walther, CZ, Tanfoglio, H&K, Beretta, Sig Sauer.. you name it.

The law changed and it became difficult and expensive to get a permit to buy a pistol. Now people are buying only high-end 1911 or high-end CZ. That is it.

[str8wal]

That statement is as ignorant as saying the 1911 is dead.

Ignorant? Naw, just poking fun ;-)

[40-82 hiker]

I just found this thread. My Colt .45 NM is one of my prized possessions, and my most fired gun. I load it with 200 gr. SWCs and 3.5 grs. Bullseye. I just love shooting that gun! In fact, I have a Rx from my physical therapist to shoot it as much as I can, as picking up the brass is good for me, or so he says (on many days I could argue that fact, however [smilie=l:).

Many different people, many different guns. However, for many years my 1911 has been a hoot for me to shoot. I've really tried to wear it out, but all I do is replace the shock buffer now and then and it shoots as good now as it did back when.

[goofyoldfart]

I have had both, a 1991-a1 in .45cal. and a Glock 21 in .45 cal. I gave my colt to a friend that was in dire need to protect and feed his family. I still cry at night sometimes. BUT my Glock does yoman service on my belt. Just have to say it is a VERY accurate pistol!! Just have to budget for a new 1911, though. Oh well. God Bless to all and theirs.:grin:

Goofy aka Godfrey:-)

[FergusonTO35]

I have always been an admirer of the other U.S. Military handgun that served alongside the 1911 in every conflict: the S&W Military & Police .38 Special revolver. I have a 1967 10-5 that is a sweet shooter and a 10-10 on layaway. I'm also planning to find a 3" barrel/round butt model 10 or 64 to add to my carry rotation alongside my plastic bottom feeders. I have a Ruger Service Six and Taurus 82 as well. My .38's all wear standard wood grips, eat 158 grain lead flat points at 850 fps, and are carried in a leather holster and belt with cartridge loops. Some things are just perfect the way they are, six shot .38 Special wheelguns are one of them.

[goofyoldfart]

Fergie, I have to agree with you on the S&W38's. I have a 64-1 that I won't get rid of and have never felt "underguned". It is Soooo accurate that it is unbelievable. It and 3 speed loaders and who wants to worry? I have fired over 8000 rds. with it and it just keeps on spittin' them out. God Bless to all and theirs.

Goofy aka Godfrey[smilie=s:

[Good Cheer]

Never have figgered out whether the 1911 is any better than the 1909.
But hey, they needed to spend the money and came up with a cracker jack pistol.

[quickdraw66]

Never have figgered out whether the 1911 is any better than the 1909.
But hey, they needed to spend the money and came up with a cracker jack pistol.
The 1909 had a near vertical grip (85 degrees), and lacked a thumb safety. I'd say that the 1911 is definitely an improvement as far as ergonomics and safety goes. There's not too many people carrying single action semi autos cocked and unlocked.

[TXGunNut]

Nope, not dead by a long shot. You sure know how to start a whizzing contest, DougGuy!
I have one that's retired after over twenty years of duty carry and a fair bit of match use as well. She's a custom series 70 built in the tradition of 70's IPSC guns. For a retirement gift I installed new springs and pretty wood grips but it's ready to go whenever I'm feeling nostalgic. I replaced it with....drum roll please......another 1911! It's a little Defender and is a bit more comfortable and easier to hide than my old warhorse.
Nothing against the polymer guns, had a few. Carried a Glock 27 for an off-duty gun for years. Carried a Sig 229 when I was doing the bike cop thing because I didn't want to scuff up my pretty 1911 in a spill. Damn fine guns, both of them. But they're both gone now and I don't miss them a bit.
I wonder if fans of the new-fangled 1911 had similar discussions with 1873 fans a hundred or so years ago. I realize that was long before Al Gore invented the internet ;-) but I can only imagine the discussions.

[pworley1]

I would bet that almost every gun owner with more than 5 guns has at least one 1911.

[Petrol & Powder]

Here's a poll for Wilco; "How many pages will a thread achieve if 1911 is in the title"?

[Boogieman]

I got my daily carry a Colt O.M. 25+ years ago. Friends said I should have got on of those Wondernines. the 1911 was old fashioned , I told them I moved up 100 years from the Colt 45 SAA I was carrying .

[double bogey]

Everyone I know who has a striker fired gun is amazed how good the trigger is on a run of the mill 1911. Everyone who has shot one of mine has found one of their own. I keep a glock 23 in my truck. Won't leave one of my 1911's unattended.

[quickdraw66]

I don't care for the trigger on most striker fire guns. I greatly prefer the trigger of a DA/SA or just a SA.

[Lead Fred]

In my entire life Ive owned one revolver (S&W 29a) and 1911s.

Now I own one revolver (Blackhawk 357) and Sig Sauer P220

I have NO reason to ever shoot or own a 1911 again.

The P220 is a superior machine

[NoAngel]

The 1911 to me is about like a single action revolver. Great if that's what you want, go for it, but the millions and millions of dollars spent trying to keep it viable as a modern combat weapon is a joke. May as well try to make a Garand or a 98 Mauser suitable for modern combat as well.

Newer designs are far more reliable, lighter, cheaper to manufacture and not limited in capacity.
I will bet money that if Browning was alive today, he wouldn't be polishing an old boat anchor. He was an innovator far ahead of his time and if here alive today designing guns, he would be on the cutting edge using modern materials and manufacturing processes.

[jmorris]

Dead...everyone makes a 1911 these days. S&W, Ruger, Sig and a bazillion others. The reason they do is because they can make money selling them vs firearms of their own design.



That should be enough stirring for at least a few more pages;)

[DougGuy]

Dead.. Oh the ASHES are all around us! I put together a new to me GI 1911A1 last month, and just this week already things fell right into place and another one is making it's way here in pieces to be assembled into a Commander. I have missed my old Commander. I have the parts to duplicate it's exact appointments. It's like the pieces found ME. Almost eerily coincidental how it came together. They want resurrected.

[robertbank]

The 1911 to me is about like a single action revolver. Great if that's what you want, go for it, but the millions and millions of dollars spent trying to keep it viable as a modern combat weapon is a joke. May as well try to make a Garand or a 98 Mauser suitable for modern combat as well.

Newer designs are far more reliable, lighter, cheaper to manufacture and not limited in capacity.
I will bet money that if Browning was alive today, he wouldn't be polishing an old boat anchor. He was an innovator far ahead of his time and if here alive today designing guns, he would be on the cutting edge using modern materials and manufacturing processes.

Of course you are right and everything you say is logical but when ut comes to nostalgia and memories there is no place for logic. The 1911 will live on in competitions such as IPSC/USPSA and IDPA and in the minds of vets until the last from Vietnam join their comrades then maybe you will see the decline in interest. Until then the old mystical war horse will live on. Not in the hands of the young but in the wrinkled weathered hands of the wise...at least for another two decades.

Take Care

Bob

[youngmman]

I have a book published in 1963 entitled "Colt's Automatic Pistols". In it is the minutest detail about the development of the GI 45 from the original conception to testing along with competitors for the contract that includes letters & notes between parties involved in the testing both Military & Civilian. There was not even a close competitor in terms of reliability in the testing. It is a totally fascinating book.

It's no surprise the GI 45, with all the tweaks over the years, has endured. Frankly, I think the Military has screwed up royally by not keeping it as the primary side arm. They should let the other NATO countries change to it instead of the other way around.

[M-Tecs]

1911's come in all forms from the worn out GI surplus and *** parts guns to state of the art defense and competition guns. Some of the new stuff may equal the current state of the art 1911's but so far none have been able to displace the 1911 in term of use or popularity in the various handgun competitions.

I find it interesting that the under 30 crowd tend to be the biggest bad mouthers of the 1911's until they shoot a QUALITY 1911 then they become the 1911's biggest fan boys.

A lot of companies have made or are making this "dead" pistol.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=280059

https://www.1911addicts.com/threads/buyers-guide-for-all-you-1911-addicts.511/

http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2015/02/26-new-1911-style-pistols-for-2015/#26-new-1911-style-pistols-for-2015-4

[robertbank]

1911's come in all forms from the worn out GI surplus and *** parts guns to state of the art defense and competition guns. Some of the new stuff may equal the current state of the art 1911's but so far none have been able to displace the 1911 in term of use or popularity in the various handgun competitions.

I find it interesting that the under 30 crowd tend to be the biggest bad mouthers of the 1911's until they shoot a QUALITY 1911 then they become the 1911's biggest fan boys.

A lot of companies have made or are making this "dead" pistol.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=280059

https://www.1911addicts.com/threads/buyers-guide-for-all-you-1911-addicts.511/

http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2015/02/26-new-1911-style-pistols-for-2015/#26-new-1911-style-pistols-for-2015-4

Actually that is not all quite true. IDPA ESP and CDP Divisions are now being won at the National Level by Glock and M&P's. Even CDP, a Division designed for the 45acp and 1911 has been lost to the M&P in the same caliber. The Polymer guns are far more reliable in competition, faster to drive and accurate enough. The only guns you frequently see fail at large matches are the 1911's. While still popular, the 1911 as a model represented 48% of the guns at the US Indoor IDPA Nationals. Striker fired guns represented 50% of the field. This trend has been going on for several years now. At the US Nationals the Glock 34 and the M&P Pro 9MM are now the dominant players in ESP/SSP while both 45acp models made by Glock and S&W are winning CDP - not all the time but most often.

I know it is the archer not the arrow but there is a reason why the polymer guns dominate the sport now and the trend will only get stronger.

Take Care

Bob

[M-Tecs]

So 48% 1911's and 50% all other manufactures. Even with the missing 2% what single pistol is close to 48% usage?

[rintinglen]

Of course the 1911 is dead. The only reason you see them every where you look is the Zombie Apocalypse. Darn zombie pistols wandering the Earth, shooting up the boolits of the living.

[robertbank]

So 48% 1911's and 50% all other manufactures. Even with the missing 2% what single pistol is close to 48% usage?

Well let's not get to excited. 50% are striker fired pistols. 48% are 1911 designs from various manufacturers. Then numbers are interesting but the fact is the 1911's are not winning at IDPA at the National Level like they once were. Even in a Division they used to dominate (CDP) they are now almost an "also ran".

Three issues are in play. First the younger generation have embraced the polymer striker fired pistols and secondly their design appears to have some advantages over the 1911 in that sport. Reliability, weight and cost being three of the most prominent reasons that come to mind. Of the three the fact the young are shooting and winning with their polymer guns is telling and they are not likely going to change platforms over the course of their competitive lifetime. We haven't in many cases so it is not unreasonable to expect they will either. Why pay upwards of $2K for a gun to compete against a $750 Glock 34/M&P Pro, only to lose?

Take Care

Bob

[Blackwater]

A big "Amen" to quickdraw's post about the modern striker fired triggers! REAL shooters NEED a good trigger to do their best shooting, and the 1911 CAN and often does come out of the box with a very shootable trigger, plus it can be tweaked to be an EXCELLENT one. This ain't no small thing, guys! Yes, there's something to be said for volume of fire, but there's ALSO the fact that 7 or 8 (9 with 8-rd. mags + 1 in chamber) of .45 will do 99.999% of all that really needs to be, or CAN be done, anywhere at any time with a handgun, in self defense scenarios. The "one shot stopper" .45 slugs, more typically DO take only 1 rd. to stop a fight, whereas most users of the wonder 9's are typically trained to fire multiple shots instinctively, thus cutting effective static "magazine capacity" in half - not an inconsiderable factor in these type decisions.

Its reliiability, given a good and properly maintained and fed gun, is legendary. Its adaptability to the individual shooter is unmatched in any other gun I know of. It can be customized to suit, or left plain Jane, and it'll STILL serve admirably and reliably. If yours isn't performing well, there's a reason, and there are 'smiths and users everywhere that can identify your problem. Give it good ammo, and it'll likely be shooting long after many of the new wonder 9's have quit, as long as you don't abuse it with too hot loads and batter it.

It's flat, easy to carry, compact for its abilities, concealable, quick to access and fire, safe, dependable, reliable ..... what's NOT to like? And yet, many "moderns" like to poo poo ANYTHING that's not equally "modern" as themselves. Us ol' pharts will cling to our 1911's 'till the last dance. We KNOW what works, and have spent out time out DOING stuff, rather than talking it to death. There'll never be a substitute for that.

The only thing I'm not pleased with about it is it flips the empties in the water when I take it to the river. Nothing's perfect, then, but the 1911 comes as close as anything ever devised by the hands of man. But that's just my view, of course. It IS based on MUCH experience with it, though. Is yours????

[waksupi]

Actually that is not all quite true. IDPA ESP and CDP Divisions are now being won at the National Level by Glock and M&P's. Even CDP, a Division designed for the 45acp and 1911 has been lost to the M&P in the same caliber. The Polymer guns are far more reliable in competition, faster to drive and accurate enough. The only guns you frequently see fail at large matches are the 1911's. While still popular, the 1911 as a model represented 48% of the guns at the US Indoor IDPA Nationals. Striker fired guns represented 50% of the field. This trend has been going on for several years now. At the US Nationals the Glock 34 and the M&P Pro 9MM are now the dominant players in ESP/SSP while both 45acp models made by Glock and S&W are winning CDP - not all the time but most often.

I know it is the archer not the arrow but there is a reason why the polymer guns dominate the sport now and the trend will only get stronger.

Take Care

Bob

Lots of the younger shooters have never owned a 1911, or handled one. They shoot what the slick magazines tell them to buy.

[robertbank]

Lots of the younger shooters have never owned a 1911, or handled one. They shoot what the slick magazines tell them to buy.

Yes but that doesn't give the 1911 legs just explains part of the issue. In today's world of CNC equipment most modern designs are reliable and some much better than others. The 1911 design is legendary and there is the rub it is legendary. In real world competitive shooting not so much. As far as one shot performance the .357MAG, IIRC owns the title according to the FBI and the 45acp was not near the top.

For those who love the gun, and I am one of them, the 1911 is always be a favourite but for those who look for real life testing of reliability take the time to examine the Czech Police requirements for the 75D Compact/P-01.

The issues with the 1911 are well known. Cost of manufacture is the major one alone with weight as a secondary issue. Both pull hard on the strings of military requirements and budgets. The latter has an affect on US military spending just like it does on any of her allies. Spending scarce dollars on a low level weapon is not popular and spending it on a platform where the equivalent can be bought for a fraction of the cost is not an argument any General is going to win even if he wanted to try.

Lastly the 1911 has an unmatched trigger which is a major bonus for bulls eye shooting but a Canard in virtually any other use the gun competes in. Most, if not all modern pistols have an adequate trigger and that really is all that is necessary. Hitting a man size target at 25 yards somewhere does not demand a crisp 4# trigger if the shooter has any kind of basic training.


Sorry but in my view and others I suspect, the 1911 will soldier on probably for a very long time on legendary sentimental values if nothing else.

Take Care

Bob
ps I love the three I own. I just wish I had more reasons to shoot them more.

[DougGuy]

Y'all want to hear a goodun?

Yesterday, I made a deal on GB for a 1911 complete lower frame. I spoke to the seller about it a couple of times, clicked on the BUY NOW price on the auction page, spoke to my local FFL and got them two together to do the legalities, GF comes home with some cash in her hand so I can go get a money order. I went to USPS at 4:30 and bought a money order and put it in priority mail.

This morning I get an email saying the frame I bought yesterday had been shipped. I am like whaaaaaaaaaaa??? Sent the money order at almost closing time for the usps, in NC, and it arrives at the dealer's shop in MN before noon the next day? Less than 18hrs?

YAY USPS! LOUD clapping!

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/1911%20Commander/pix294725737_zpshbndrghf.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/1911%20Commander/pix294725737_zpshbndrghf.jpg.html)

And the ebay slide.. (It is very nicely factory blued, the digital camera thinks it is stainless):

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/1911%20Commander/Untitled%201_zpszlynndpc.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/1911%20Commander/Untitled%201_zpszlynndpc.jpg.html)

[M-Tecs]

I quess someone needs to e-mail Doug Koenig that his 16th NRA Bianchi Cup Action Pistol win using a S&W 1911 open class pistol was a poor choice. Koenig has used a 1911 for all 16 wins.

https://www.nrablog.com/articles/2015/5/24/doug-koenig-wins-2015-midwayusa-nra-bianchi-cup/

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/05/doug-koenig-wins-16th-career-bianchi-cup-title/

https://americanhandgunner.com/bianchi-cup-2014/

http://www.juliegolob.com/15-questions-with-15-time-bianchi-cup-champion

S&W: Let’s talk equipment for a few seconds. Your Open gun for Bianchi is a Smith & Wesson 1911 in .38 Super. Obviously for this competition you’ve made some upgrades to the base model. Why did you select this particular model and what benefit do you feel the .38 Super cartridge provides?
DK: I think in a lot of ways, it all comes down to familiarity. I’ve been using .38 Super and the 1911 platform for almost my entire career. The versatility of the .38 Super makes it a great setup for USPSA, Steel Challenge, Bianchi or any of the other matches I shoot. The beauty of the cartridge is that you can download it to a .380 equivalent with a 90gr bullet going 1,000 feet per second or you can bring it up to a .357 level with a 125-grain bullet going 1,400 feet per second. As for the 1911 style, I’ve been shooting this type of pistol for over 26 years. When I first started in the sport, it was the platform everyone was using and it stuck with me. With the SW1911DK, I like the all-steel setup, grip angle and high performance features. While it’s true that I’ve made some alterations for Bianchi, in other events like the Metallic, I’m basically running the stock gun. It’s certainly race-ready right out of the box.

Same for Kevin Angstadt who used a Les Baer 9 x 23 caliber 1911 to win the 2014 Bianchi Cup.

http://www.swvatoday.com/sports/bland_county/article_510b1450-fe3d-11e3-98ed-0017a43b2370.html

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/05/kevin-angstadt-wins-2014-bianchi-cup-with-perfect-1920-score/

[M-Tecs]

As far as one shot performance the .357MAG, IIRC owns the title according to the FBI and the 45acp was not near the top.



Current data is hard to come but but according to Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's book: Stopping Power: A Practical Analysis of the Latest Handgun Ammunition (http://www.stoppingpower.net/) the Federal 45 ACP 230 grain load is the same 96% as the 357.

http://www.handloads.org/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=0

http://www.plinking.net/stop/index.htm

[Jonesy]

The AF2011 A1 will change anyone's mind about the 1911 being dead. If you haven't seen it, check it out. Not practical, just awesome.

[quickdraw66]

The tacticool crowd will tell you its dead until they're blue in the face. They will tell you that its not reliable, that its outdated, and that you need more than 8-9 rounds of 45 acp. That doesn't make it true though. The 1911 is still being used to win competitions, its still being used as both a home defense weapon, and a CCW, and it is just as reliable as any polymer gun.

BTW, I am a member of the younger generation. All of my young friends that are into guns both owns and loves the 1911. They don't think its outdated at all.

Back to the trigger. I used to own a striker fire gun with a very glock like trigger. At 15 yards it would group like a shotgun. I can put every round from my 1911 or my DA/SA guns into about 2-3" with ease at that same distance. Guess which guns I trust with my life.

[Lonegun1894]

Of course you are right and everything you say is logical but when ut comes to nostalgia and memories there is no place for logic. The 1911 will live on in competitions such as IPSC/USPSA and IDPA and in the minds of vets until the last from Vietnam join their comrades then maybe you will see the decline in interest. Until then the old mystical war horse will live on. Not in the hands of the young but in the wrinkled weathered hands of the wise...at least for another two decades.

Take Care

Bob

I carried my 1911 through Iraq during OIF, along with every other place they sent me, so it's not just Vietnam vets who think of if fondly. And it is still issued to some units, so it won't be dying anytime during our lifetimes, regardless how much the plastic fans wish it would. Like I said before, I have, use, and trust the Glocks I have also, but have a strong preference for the 1911.

[gwpercle]

Yeah.....Right !
Don't believe everything you read. I also read the 40 S&W was going to make the 9 mm Luger and 45 ACP obsolete....not believing that one either.
Gary

[NoAngel]

It's worth pointing out to those who vehemently defend the honor of the 1911, there's a lot of different hands out there. What fits one won't fit all. Glock proved that. Their stuff fits little euro girly hands. I had to spend a good bit of time with a Dremel tool and a wood burning kit to get mine to fit.
Ive had several 1911's and shot several I could never afford. (Nighthawk Ed brown and Wilson) I can't hit squat with one. They feel very clumsy in my hands. I can hit with a modified Glock.
The XD was the best fit I've ever felt but they're pretty top heavy.

Everyone is different. I would opine that any 1911 is a worthless boat anchor. The guy in the shooting lane next to me says the same about plastic fantastic. I can't stand anything with an exposed hammer. The next guy despises striker fired weapons. Ain't it great to be free to make the choice for yourself?

[robertbank]

In terms of numbers sold the 1911 isn't dead but certainly not feeding as many families as it once did. It will be around as long as I am alive and like the SAA will always be apart of American folk lore. In terms of number of units sold I would think the various models of 1911's made pale in comparison to the sales of the Glock models and M&P's to name just two. Anyway all of this is interesting but as someone mentioned above if JMB was around today he would have taken the striker fired concept beyond anything Glock or S&W have managed. Isn't the big pistol seller now some pocket pee shooter firing that devastating round the .380. I would refer those guns as boutique guns for the fashion crowd or the gun industry's latest cash cow for their executive's bonus.

Take Care

Bob

[str8wal]

Isn't the big pistol seller now some pocket pee shooter

Ya, or some hybrid jack of all trades wheelgun that I just don't get.....

It's all in the marketing.

[quickdraw66]

In terms of number of units sold I would think the various models of 1911's made pale in comparison to the sales of the Glock models and M&P's to name just two.

Take Care

Bob

Don't be too sure about that. A few pages back, I posted a some data that showed that the 1911 consistently outsold Glock in both new and used sales on gunbroker (probably the largest gun marketplace in the world). The M&P didn't fare much better.

The 1911 is still selling like crazy, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

[kysunfish]

Why has the Browning Hi-Power not survived such as the 1911 has???

Thrived might be a better word. I'm not sure that JMB was the sole designer of the Hi Power and several improvements have been made over the years. The magazine was way ahead of its time. Hi Powers have always been pricey and limited in #'s. The market for Hi Cap 9mm is very competitive and labor costs have nearly priced them out of business.

[youngmman]

It's worth pointing out to those who vehemently defend the honor of the 1911, there's a lot of different hands out there. What fits one won't fit all. Glock proved that. Their stuff fits little euro girly hands. I had to spend a good bit of time with a Dremel tool and a wood burning kit to get mine to fit.
Ive had several 1911's and shot several I could never afford. (Nighthawk Ed brown and Wilson) I can't hit squat with one. They feel very clumsy in my hands. I can hit with a modified Glock.
The XD was the best fit I've ever felt but they're pretty top heavy.

Everyone is different. I would opine that any 1911 is a worthless boat anchor. The guy in the shooting lane next to me says the same about plastic fantastic. I can't stand anything with an exposed hammer. The next guy despises striker fired weapons. Ain't it great to be free to make the choice for yourself?
I am very much a 1911 fan and own several and like the older models of S&W revolvers also, but not much of a fan of the glock.
Regardless of all that, NONE of them are worth a GOOD G*D D**N if you can't hit the target under difficult circumstances and I don't mean target plunking. The few times I was in that sort of position I had either and M14 :-) or an M16.

Just my 2C

[robertbank]

Don't be too sure about that. A few pages back, I posted a some data that showed that the 1911 consistently outsold Glock in both new and used sales on gunbroker (probably the largest gun marketplace in the world). The M&P didn't fare much better.

The 1911 is still selling like crazy, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Sales on Gunbroker mean nothing. It is new manufactured gun sales you have to track. Too, Glock is but one of the models now chasing the LEO and Military market around the world. The 1911 is certainly a popular platform nobody would suggest otherwise but in shear volumes Glock alone I suspect would sell more new guns in a year than all the new 1911 sales combined. I have no idea what the fascination is for the Glock other than the Glock 17 sells to LEO Departments for under $500US. The only 1911 that sells in that price point that I am aware of are the Norincos we get up here for $349Cdn or approx. $290 US. Allow th importation of that gun into the US and I suspect the old 1911 would get youthful legs in a hurry.:bigsmyl2:

Youngmman has the answer to why the 1911 is not going to return as a main pistol for anyone's Army soon. Given a choice, as an infantry soldier do you want a 43 oz. pistol in a chest holster or 43oz. more rifle ammunition?

Take Care

Bob

[jmorris]

while both 45acp models made by Glock and S&W are winning CDP

Doesn't look like they have at nationals in a few years.


TULSA, Okla. – For the third year in a row, Wilson Combat’s Glenn Shelby took the Custom Defensive Pistol division national title at the International Defensive Pistol Association’s (IDPA (http://www.facebook.com/ShootIDPA)) U.S. National Championship.

http://www.idpa.com/blog/?tag=/Glenn+Shelby

[quickdraw66]

Sales on Gunbroker mean nothing. It is new manufactured gun sales you have to track. Too, Glock is but one of the models now chasing the LEO and Military market around the world. The 1911 is certainly a popular platform nobody would suggest otherwise but in shear volumes Glock alone I suspect would sell more new guns in a year than all the new 1911 sales combined. I have no idea what the fascination is for the Glock other than the Glock 17 sells to LEO Departments for under $500US. The only 1911 that sells in that price point that I am aware of are the Norincos we get up here for $349Cdn or approx. $290 US. Allow th importation of that gun into the US and I suspect the old 1911 would get youthful legs in a hurry.:bigsmyl2:

Youngmman has the answer to why the 1911 is not going to return as a main pistol for anyone's Army soon. Given a choice, as an infantry soldier do you want a 43 oz. pistol in a chest holster or 43oz. more rifle ammunition?

Take Care

Bob
There are several good 1911s for under $500.

Gunbroker makes a ton of sales, and is the worlds largest gun marketplace so to say that data means nothing is completely false.

What were last years glock sales numbers, or are you just assuming they sell more?

The American civilian market far outnumbers the LEO market, and the US military does not use Glock or the M&P.

[robertbank]

Are Gunbrokers sales new manufactured guns or used guns? New sales count...used guns sales have been counted. Glocks are not the only pistols being made nor are M&P's for that matter. The 1911 is a great design and certainly will be around for a long time but it's day as a mainstream LEO or Military pistol are long gone.

How many new 1911's made in the US sell for under $500? Answer is NONE. What pistol caliber is the most popular these days....9MM by a lot. I love my 1911's but they are relatively expensive and despite all the comments are nor more reliable than many other designs the model competes with eg SIG 226, CZ 75B, Glock, M&P, Beretta 92's etc. In 20 years most of ther 60's generation will have completed their journey and I suspect the polymer fan club will be still shooting their beloved Glocks and M&P's and wondering what all the fuss was about with a hammer fired 43 oz steel pistol with the need for two to three safeties depending on the model. Maybe somebody will invent a sport similar to Cowboy Action thus securing a market for the 1911.

Bob

[quickdraw66]

Are Gunbrokers sales new manufactured guns or used guns? New sales count...used guns sales have been counted. Glocks are not the only pistols being made nor are M&P's for that matter. The 1911 is a great design and certainly will be around for a long time but it's day as a mainstream LEO or Military pistol are long gone.

How many new 1911's made in the US sell for under $500? Answer is NONE. What pistol caliber is the most popular these days....9MM by a lot. I love my 1911's but they are relatively expensive and despite all the comments are nor more reliable than many other designs the model competes with eg SIG 226, CZ 75B, Glock, M&P, Beretta 92's etc. In 20 years most of ther 60's generation will have completed their journey and I suspect the polymer fan club will be still shooting their beloved Glocks and M&P's and wondering what all the fuss was about with a hammer fired 43 oz steel pistol with the need for two to three safeties depending on the model. Maybe somebody will invent a sport similar to Cowboy Action thus securing a market for the 1911.

Bob

Gunbroker sells both new and used guns, and the 1911 was outselling the glock and the M&P in BOTH categories.

So you don't have the numbers to back up your claims then? That makes yours claims nothing more than assumptions, and once again you are wrong. The Remington 1911R1 sells for around $500 and had been known to go on sale for around $450-$480. You have no idea what you are talking about. Now either back up your claims with ACTUAL evidence (sales numbers), or stop making them.

And yes, I will put my 1911 up against any Glock any day of the week. It is reliable and extremely accurate.

[M-Tecs]

Maybe somebody will invent a sport similar to Cowboy Action thus securing a market for the 1911.



It's called Wild Bunch. Sarcasm noted.

Anyone that discounts the dominance of the 1911 in the high end pistol competitions, currently usage by the various special forces/high risk units, the twenty to thirty companies currently producing 1911’s, the plethora of aftermarket parts and it new and used sale figures is delusional.

[NoAngel]

I am very much a 1911 fan and own several and like the older models of S&W revolvers also, but not much of a fan of the glock.
Regardless of all that, NONE of them are worth a GOOD G*D D**N if you can't hit the target under difficult circumstances and I don't mean target plunking. The few times I was in that sort of position I had either and M14 :-) or an M16.

Just my 2C

Exactly. A .25 acp that hits beats a .500 S&W that misses.

[DougGuy]

Maybe somebody will invent a sport similar to Cowboy Action thus securing a market for the 1911.
Bob


It's called Wild Bunch.

Those matches look like a lot of fun too! Wish we had one around here!

[M-Tecs]

How many new 1911's made in the US sell for under $500? Answer is NONE. What pistol caliber is the most popular these days....9MM by a lot.
Bob

From GrabAGun for 1911’s under $500.00 you can pick from various High Standard’s, Armcor Rock Island’s, Taurus’s, Auto Ordnance’s, American Classic’s, Taylor’s, Cimarron’s, Chiappa’s and Import Sports 1911’s

For under $600.00 you can have Citadel Firearms 1911’s, Umerax’s,Howa Citadel’s, American Tactical, Sprinfield’s, Bersa’s, Iver Johnson’s, IO INC Venom’s, Para USA’s, Remington’s and Ruger’s

Not too bad for a dying gun and this DOES NOT include the numerous 22 cal 1911’s nor the scaled down 380 1911’s.

[M-Tecs]

. What pistol caliber is the most popular these days....9MM by a lot.
Bob

You can get 1911's in:

.50 GI
.45ACP
.45GAP
.45 Super
.45 Win Mag.
.451 Detonics
.455 Webley Auto
460 Rowland
.41 Avenger
.41 Action Express
.41 Magnum
10mm Mag
10mm Auto
.40 S&W
.400 Corbon
.40 Super
.40 G&A
380 ACP
.38 ACP
.38 Super
.38 AMU
.38 Special
.38 SA
.357/45 Bain & Davis
357 Mag.
.356 TSW
9x23mm Winchester
9mm Parabellum (http://www.overstock.com/3764362/product.html?TRACK=affcjfeed&CID=207442&fp=F) (9x19mm)
9mm Steyr
9x21
9x25 Dillon
7.92x24mm
7.65mm .30 Luger
.22 LR
and I am sure there are others but it's still not bad for a dying gun.

[M-Tecs]

Youngmman has the answer to why the 1911 is not going to return as a main pistol for anyone's Army soon. Bob

No one on this forum HAS to answer to anything.

As to if a 1911 style pistol is ever coming back check this out. http://bearingarms.com/top-three-contenders-u-s-militarys-xm17-modular-handgun-system-contract/


STI-Detonics STX


An early Detonics Defense STX prototype.

Who?

Neither Detonics Defense nor STI are household names, nor are they even particularly well-known among other gun companies. Detonics Defense is primarily a research and development “skunkworks” focused creating designs and patents around combat human factors research, while STI is primarily known as the maker of high-end competition handguns and elite military and law enforcement units. Together, they form a singular Davids in a roomful of handgun industry Goliaths.

The two companies formed a strategic partnership just two weeks ago to build a number of different modular handguns using patents held by Detonics, incorporating STI’s vaunted engineering and production prowess. Looking roughly like a 1911, the STX uses a drop-in striker box system that can be easily swapped out with other trigger packs, is caliber agnostic, uses a truly modular frame and grip that enables either a long or a short grip to be installed, has felt recoil up to 40% less than comparable designs, and is perhaps the only contender that exceeds the MHS spec for fitting various hand sizes.

Interestingly enough, the STX is also the only metal-framed handgun thought to be in contention for the contract, which may be a dual blessing for the upstart team. The U.S. military has never fielded a polymer-frame firearm to the masses, and there have been persistent rumors that the military has found problems with polymer handgun frames holding up in certain operational environments.

While STI-Detonics may not have the production capability of the other contending companies, that could be rendered an irrelevant point if the MHS contract is awarded based on an intellectual property package (IPP) basis, and is produced in-house by the Army.

Given a choice, as an infantry soldier do you want a 43 oz. pistol in a chest holster or 43oz. more rifle ammunition?



I never had to fire a shot in combat but I did carry an M9. Given a choice I would have carried a double stack 1911 in 45 acp. No firearm is perfect of all uses. The 1911 does some things really well but it requires more training than the Glock style striker fired pistols. It is not the best choice for the untrained masses but it excels in the hands of experts.

For what I was doing a rifle not practical and 43oz of rifle ammunition would have been useless.

http://bearingarms.com/modular-handgun-system-competitor-fires-fast-full-auto-ak-video/

The Detonics design offers the military the .45 ACP cartridge that they’d like to return to with a double-stack magazines, the modularity to mix-and-match among officer, commander, and full-size frames and top-ends, and the ability to use either a traditional 1911 single-action top-end (MTX), or a new striker-fired upper (STX). The upper sits on top of an advanced, low bore axis recoil-eating grip that holds a double-stack .45 magazine that is still as thin as a single stack 1911, all on a metal-frame (which the military prefers over polymer for durability reasons), that has very little muzzle flip and felt recoil.

[Petrol & Powder]

8 pages about a hypothetical 1911 argument.........amazing !!!

If I stated a thread titled "1911" and included zero substance I wonder if it would reach 142 posts ?

[montana_charlie]

The AF2011 A1 will change anyone's mind about the 1911 being dead. If you haven't seen it, check it out. Not practical, just awesome.
The contributors to this thread, and those of us who are just reading along, probably consider it to be a serious discussion of a real world subject.

Obviously, you do not ...

[Victor N TN]

I must like 1911s. I have 6 of them.

[MUSTANG]

1911 dead? Not for me as long as I am breathing; one on the hip (Springfield) and two in the safe (Kimbers) just in case I need them. Single stack 1911 is my preference except when i need a lightweight/compact for concealed carry (summer shorts/swim suit etc..)

My Glock .45 always sits hiding deep in the safe until the Youngest Son comes by to shoot with us. (He gave it to me as a Christmas present and he carries a Glock on duty as a policeman).

[M-Tecs]

One more company (CZ) jumping into the "dead" 1911 market. CZ builds the Dan Wesson 1911 but the CZ 1911 A1 is US made.


http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-1911-a1/Product Description

2015 brings the launch of the first pistol made in the USA that bears the CZ name. The CZ 1911 A1 is an homage to the past, a 5” government sized model built as a modern incarnation of the original 1911 A1. That original was adopted into US service in 1924, ‘improving’ on John Moses Browning’s original design. Our version makes several small ‘improvements’ as well, swapping the checkered plastic grips for checkered walnut, adding serrated slide stop, magazine catch and mainspring housing and using a stainless steel barrel. For the sake of the shooter, we elected to forgo the lanyard loop, and added a taller set of sights that are easier to use, with the front dovetailed in so that it can be swapped more easily. Though there are a number of changes, we feel the CZ 1911 is still true enough to the original service pistol to wear the A1 name.

Built with much tighter slide-to-barrel and slide-to-frame tolerances than vintage models, the result is much improved accuracy without compromising reliability. Built without a trigger safety, the trigger itself is aluminum, with pull specified at 5 lbs., give or take a pound. Its forged carbon steel frame and slide are finished in a black oxide and it ships with two 7-round magazines.


http://www.guns.com/2015/07/17/the-cz-1911-a1-is-now-in-stores/

The CZ 1911 A1 is now in stores!7/17/15 (http://www.guns.com/2015/07/17/the-cz-1911-a1-is-now-in-stores/) | by Max Slowik (http://www.guns.com/author/max_slowik/)
(http://castboolits.gunloads.com/#)[/URL]

http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/cz-1911-a1.jpg
The hotly-anticipated CZ 1911 A1 is now available in stores and at an eye-popping price. Announced at the 2015 SHOT Show this 1911 has all the look and feel of the classic G.I. design with improved modern materials, built to CZ’s demanding standards.
The idea behind the CZ 1911 A1 was to take the sort of changes made to the original 1911 when it received the A1 upgrades, and apply the same degree of tinkering to the A1 design while keeping it true to Browning’s vision, still worthy of the A1 name.
The improvements are subtle and some are completely invisible. Others will stick out to the trained eye. The CZ 1911 A1 is a much tighter [URL="http://www.brownells.com/reloading/primers/pistol-primers/pistol-primers-prod55055.aspx"]pistol (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/#) with a snug fit between the forged carbon steel (http://www.amazon.com/Columbia-River-Knife-Tool-2730/dp/B00I04Q7LO) frame and slide and stainless steel match-grade .45 ACP barrel for the type of lock-up and accuracy you’d expect from a semi-custom 1911.
http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/cz-1911-a1-2-300x182.jpgThe markings on the left and right of the pistol (http://www.brownells.com/reloading/primers/pistol-primers/pistol-primers-prod55055.aspx) don’t compromise the classic looks but leave no mistaking that this is a brand-new 1911, with the build quality and features people expect from CZ. (Photo: CZ/Facebook)

Some of the more visible changes include raised dovetailed sights that are taller and easier to acquire. The shrinking plastic grips have been replaced with checkered walnut grips that match them in texture and hue. And the ejection port has been slightly lowered for improved reliability.
Out is the lanyard loop and in goes a serrated slide stop. The solid, short trigger (http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/triggers-parts/triggers/trigger-prod17552.aspx) is aluminum and set at a creep-free but service-weight 5 pounds. The frame and slide have a satin black oxide finish and the aluminum trigger (http://www.sinclairintl.com/gun-parts-tools-accessories/rifle-parts/triggers-parts/triggers/10-22-trigger-black-sku713000091-32478-53656.aspx) is anodized and dyed to match. Each pistol (http://www.brownells.com/reloading/primers/pistol-primers/pistol-primers-prod55055.aspx) ships with two flush seven-round magazines.
Other than that they should be very familiar to friends of Browning (http://www.brownells.com/magazines/handgun-magazines/magazines/browning-hi-power-9mm-magazines-prod69720.aspx). The CZ 1911 A1 has a spur hammer (http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/general-gunsmith-tools/hammers/delrin-tipped-brass-hammer-prod73391.aspx) and short beavertail grip safety, 5-inch long barrel, and an unloaded weight of 39 ounces. Detailed specifications are on the CZ website (http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-1911-a1/).
CZ 1911 A1 pistols are made right here in the USA and are the first U.S.-made guns to bear the CZ brand. They carry an MSRP of $849 and are already showing up in stores in the mid-$700 range (http://www.jgsales.com/cz-1911a1-semi-auto-pistol,-45acp,-deep-black-finish,-gi-style,-new.-p-85230.html). CZ Custom made the announcement that they have the guns in stock (https://www.facebook.com/czcustom/timeline/story?ut=43&wstart=0&wend=1438412399&hash=4017618039715332812&pagefilter=3) and we expect to see them listed in their online store soon.
The CZ 1911 A1 is a quality handgun but it’s not designed to be a collector’s piece. It’s at a price shooters everywhere can appreciate and it’s intended to be a workhorse, not a show piece. With this new handgun CZ is saying don’t put extra wear and tear on your historical firearms. Shoot this instead, and shoot the hell out of it.

[DougGuy]

One more company (CZ) jumping into the "dead" 1911 market. CZ builds the Dan Wesson 1911 but the CZ 1911 A1 is US made.


http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-1911-a1/Product Description


The hotly-anticipated CZ 1911 A1 is now available in stores and at an eye-popping price. Announced at the 2015 SHOT Show this 1911 has all the look and feel of the classic G.I. design with improved modern materials, built to CZ’s demanding standards.
The idea behind the CZ 1911 A1 was to take the sort of changes made to the original 1911 when it received the A1 upgrades, and apply the same degree of tinkering to the A1 design while keeping it true to Browning’s vision, still worthy of the A1 name.
The improvements are subtle and some are completely invisible. Others will stick out to the trained eye. The CZ 1911 A1 is a much tighter pistol (http://www.brownells.com/reloading/primers/pistol-primers/pistol-primers-prod55055.aspx) with a snug fit between the forged carbon steel (http://www.amazon.com/Columbia-River-Knife-Tool-2730/dp/B00I04Q7LO) frame and slide and stainless steel match-grade .45 ACP barrel for the type of lock-up and accuracy you’d expect from a semi-custom 1911.
http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/cz-1911-a1-2-300x182.jpg

The markings on the left and right of the pistol (http://www.brownells.com/reloading/primers/pistol-primers/pistol-primers-prod55055.aspx) don’t compromise the classic looks but leave no mistaking that this is a brand-new 1911, with the build quality and features people expect from CZ. (Photo: CZ/Facebook)

Some of the more visible changes include raised dovetailed sights that are taller and easier to acquire. The shrinking plastic grips have been replaced with checkered walnut grips that match them in texture and hue. And the ejection port has been slightly lowered for improved reliability.
Out is the lanyard loop and in goes a serrated slide stop. The solid, short trigger (http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/triggers-parts/triggers/trigger-prod17552.aspx) is aluminum and set at a creep-free but service-weight 5 pounds. The frame and slide have a satin black oxide finish and the aluminum trigger (http://www.sinclairintl.com/gun-parts-tools-accessories/rifle-parts/triggers-parts/triggers/10-22-trigger-black-sku713000091-32478-53656.aspx) is anodized and dyed to match. Each pistol (http://www.brownells.com/reloading/primers/pistol-primers/pistol-primers-prod55055.aspx) ships with two flush seven-round magazines.


^^^^ LOVE IT! I hope they do well. Any photos of the barrel throat or technical info on the barrel? Is it hardened, etc? Most of the modern CZ stuff has hardened barrels and cannot be throated with conventional reamers. If this barrel is typical, it wouldn't be a good cast boolit gun UNTIL it is throated to take .452" boolits. If they truly want a workhorse, they should really consider customers that handload instead of only test it with factory produced j-word ammo.

Edit: The CZ 1911A1 uses a Stainless Steel Match Grade barrel. This is good news in that it can be throated with conventional tooling, but bad news in that the chamber/throat/leade in to the rifling may be bit on the tight side, which seems to be quite common in modern 1911 production, regardless of the manufacturer. Can we say factory ammo only until the barrel is throated and dimensionally corrected for shooting cast boolits? Maybe...

______________________________________

In other work, today's progress in replacing a sentimentally treasured Colt Commander I built on a Caspian frame, I started on a new Colt Commander on an Auto Ordnance frame.

Slide fitted and lapped to frame, check.
Dust cover cut to Commander length, check.
Barrel cut from 5" to 4.285" in the lathe and crowned 20°, check.
Briley spherical bushing fitted to slide, check.
Robar rear sight hand fitted to slide, check.

Waiting on a handful of small parts to arrive..

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/1911%20Commander/DSC04311crop640_zpstmugbz0h.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/1911%20Commander/DSC04311crop640_zpstmugbz0h.jpg.html)

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/1911%20Commander/DSC04313crop640_zpss38c57zp.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/1911%20Commander/DSC04313crop640_zpss38c57zp.jpg.html)

[40-82 hiker]

I will never be able to purchase a CZ 1911, but would love to have one. I do however have a Model 80 NM that Sandy Garrett did a wonder of a trigger job on, and I am trying my best to wear it out given my situation. I really stretched the budget to get this one a number of years ago, and Sandy Garret's trigger is equal to any M70s I have fired. He even told me so himself, and I value his opinion greatly.

I don't think I will ever wear it out with 200gr. SWCs and 3.5grs. of Bullseye, but I have been trying for a long time. I said previously in this thread it is my favorite pistol, and always will be. After the above description of the CZ I would get one in a second if I could, but the one I own is a 100% shooter. Now all I have to do is find the Bullseye!!!!

I do have one mod I would like to have done to it, and that would be to have the throat worked on, but for now that gun is still more accurate than I am, though I'm not too bad with it. Long live the 1911, and those of us shooting them!