.45 Jiggled Logs - .357 Didn't

[Low Budget Shooter]

Here's something I found interesting. Maybe you will, too.

Yesterday a generous friend had several of us over to shoot. At the 50 yard line were three big logs, about 2 feet long, from a large tree that had been cut up. These were stood up on end, and fun targets like water-filled cartons were placed there.

One man was shooting some Hornady factory .45 ACP, so about 900 fps or so muzzle velocity. Another was shooting 125-grain .357 handloads at about 1200 fps muzzle velocity. When someone would miss the target just low, hitting the log, we noticed it would jiggle when hit with the .45, but not when hit with the .357, unless just a little bit. We then did it several times on purpose and confirmed this was happening.

How do you explain that?

Thanks!

LBS

[scattershot]

Momentum. Big bullets rule.

[Treeman]

Yes, momentum....and frontal area......and even low velocity. Play with stuff enough and you will find bullets of vastly greater energy sometimes impart less jiggle.(for instance FMJ 150 gr. .308s at 2700 fps can make impressive splashes or sometimes just shoot through a log without a jiggle.

[bouncer50]

I have notice that too. A larger bullet with more weight has more shocking value. Army did test in the 1900s on which caliber had more shocking power that how the {1905 45 acp ] = 1911 45ACP came about. Funny we went to the 9mm for the military but they found out the 9mm lacking in shock value so some troop were given the old 1911. My dad told me during WW11 he had a grease gun in 45 cal and it had good knock down power compare to the 30 cal carbine the other guys had. Faster does not alway mean better

[NavyVet1959]

One man was shooting some Hornady factory .45 ACP, so about 900 fps or so muzzle velocity. Another was shooting 125-grain .357 handloads at about 1200 fps muzzle velocity. When someone would miss the target just low, hitting the log, we noticed it would jiggle when hit with the .45, but not when hit with the .357. We then did it several times on purpose and confirmed this was happening.

How do you explain that?


Momentum = mass * velocity.

Since the conversion from mass to weight is a constant ratio, let's just ignore mass and call it "weight * velocity" for comparison purposes.

Hornady makes a couple different .45 ACP loads, but assuming you are talking about the 230 gr one, you're looking at a "momentum" of 207,000 and with the .357, a "momentum" of 150,000. So, the .45 load has 38% greater "momentum" than the .357 load in this particular case.

If you want to get picky about "proper" units, you would convert the weight in grains to pounds and then to slugs to get mass.

[bouncer50]

Momentum = mass * velocity.

Since the conversion from mass to weight is a constant ratio, let's just ignore mass and call it "weight * velocity" for comparison purposes.

Hornady makes a couple different .45 ACP loads, but assuming you are talking about the 230 gr one, you're looking at a "momentum" of 207,000 and with the .357, a "momentum" of 150,000. So, the .45 load has 38% greater "momentum" than the .357 load in this particular case.

If you want to get picky about "proper" units, you would convert the weight in grains to pounds and then to slugs to get mass. So if you where shooting 230 gr ones out of the 357 at the same speed as the 230gr ones 45 ACP then they would be the same then

[country gent]

Bullet wieght, and frontal area equals energy transfer to target. Small caliber bullets even at higher velocity dont always do a good job transfering energy to a given target, why bull dog clips work so well for hanging targets the paper target dosnt get an energy transfered to it form the bullet. And a piece of sheet metal or plywood from it and its thrown out with the bullets impact. Early ballaticians had a tool for measuring performance called a ballistic pendulum it was a weight hanging swinging and pulled a tape or string with it. This know wieght was shot into and the amount of tape pulled thru was measured giving a comparrison of energy and with some math a rough idea of velocity. This gave a solid comparrison of diffrent rounds. In your event the rounds were showing which had the better transfer and higher energy.

[tradbear55]

Momentum. Big bullets rule.

Exactly!

[NavyVet1959]

So if you where shooting 230 gr ones out of the 357 at the same speed as the 230gr ones 45 ACP then they would be the same then

There's an issue with elastic collisions and such complicating the matter, but for the most part, that is correct. With a higher sectional density though, you're going to get greater penetration and if it goes through the target, that is momentum that is not being imparted into the target.

[str8wal]

So if you where shooting 230 gr ones out of the 357 at the same speed as the 230gr ones 45 ACP then they would be the same then

I think diameter would have an effect on that.

[bouncer50]

I think diameter would have an effect on that. I was thinking the same thing. When the British went from the 455 Webley to the 38 S&W 200 grain bullet they said it had the same knock down power. I never believe that was true. In close range combat i would take the 455 webley every time. A 45 ACP over a 9mm every time.

[NavyVet1959]

I was thinking the same thing. When the British went from the 455 Webley to the 38 S&W 200 grain bullet they said it had the same knock down power. I never believe that was true. In close range combat i would take the 455 webley every time. A 45 ACP over a 9mm every time.

But you are talking about the action it has on a human and with that, wound channel makes a difference with respect to whether it does enough damage to actually stop the person. From a pure physics standpoint though, it doesn't matter. Besides, it's not like any handgun is going to be producing enough momentum to physically move you very far like you see in the movies. Momentum is conserved and the momentum that you receive firing the weapon is going to be basically the same as the target receives upon being hit by the bullet. Basic physics here... That's why the ballistic pendulum could be used to determine the velocity of the rounds that hit it.

[GhostHawk]

With higher velocity, and a smaller bullet you have the "Potential" for increased expansion and a bigger wound channel. IF and only IF everything works right.

But big bullets always work.

[DougGuy]

If you/he had been shooting a 255gr Keith boolit in the .45 it might have knocked the logs over!

This was my boolit of choice for bowling pins. They will feed handily in a 1911 once the barrel is throated and the feed ramp is attended to.

[country gent]

Frontal area is a big factor in energy trasfer also. a larger dia bullet transfers more energy faster than a small dia bullet of the same wieght. Shooting bowling pin matches was a good display of this transfer. A 200 grn SWC 45 acp load at 900 fps removed pins very reliably. a 200 grn wc in 45 colt at 900 fps literally threw pins to the floor with solid hits. A 200 grn 38 caliber at 900 fps would get them off the table most of the time. Only diffrence is the 45 swc barely exited the bowling pin leaving most of the energy in the pin. The 38 would exit quickly leaving much less of the energy in the pins the 45 colt wadcutter left a knot in the plastic coating on the back side leaving 100% of its energy in the pin. Leaving complete energy dump in the target can be interesting to see on targets. Shoot steel shilouettes and watch where the bullets fragments end up at the base of the steel targets or only slightly behind it. The moving steel absorbs most of the energy. Another display of this effect is to shoot a pellet gun into a bed sheet drapped over a clothes line in the lower half as see the sheet billow out absorbing the energy

[NavyVet1959]

With higher velocity, and a smaller bullet you have the "Potential" for increased expansion and a bigger wound channel. IF and only IF everything works right.


But there is a balancing point between diameter and penetration. It's possible to have so much diameter that you have virtually no penetration. A projectile has to have enough penetration to get to the vital organs. The human body needs a certain amounts of pressure per area to penetrate the skin. For example, a hypodermic needs will easily penetrate the skin with minimal pressure, but a 3/4" bolt take quite a bit more pressure.

[str8wal]

For example, a hypodermic needs will easily penetrate the skin with minimal pressure, but a 3/4" bolt take quite a bit more pressure.

But by that same token, I bet that bolt will physically move the subject considerably more than the needle when contacted ;-)

[JSnover]

One man was shooting some Hornady factory .45 ACP, so about 900 fps or so muzzle velocity. Another was shooting 125-grain .357 handloads at about 1200 fps muzzle velocity. When someone would miss the target just low, hitting the log, we noticed it would jiggle when hit with the .45, but not when hit with the .357, unless just a little bit. We then did it several times on purpose and confirmed this was happening.

LBS
Since neither gun/load produced a one-shot-stop, you all need to trade those pip-squeak .357s and .45s in for some serious log-stopper guns.

I don't remember who or when, but someone told me "always use the heaviest bullet for the caliber on live targets." A 180 grain .357 @900-1000 fps might have scored higher on Hatcheck's Log Jiggle Scale.