You all can call me n Deputy Al the Victory Model kids!

[Buckshot]

.............One of the ole pistol shooters (Bill) mentioned a couple weeks ago that he had a friend who was interested in disbursing some firesticks. In this case 4 pistolas in 38 S&W flavor.

So Al and I bellied up to the bar for a couple Victory model Smiths.

http://www.fototime.com/AE5351FB9EEBF8C/standard.jpg

I was trying to get the S&W emblem to show up but no go. On the bottom front of the frame are British broad arrow acceptance markings. Both pistols are also marked as FTR (Factory Thorough Repair). Mine is dated 1954 and Al's is 1955.

http://www.fototime.com/8EB1F9344794021/standard.jpg

Both pistols look exactly the same, ie: New. Well the grips show some use but both barrels sparkle. Left side of the top strap is marked "United States Property".

Neato pistols. Have to get me some shirts with epualets and a lanyard so I can use that lanyard ring :D He also had to British pistols. A Webley and an Enfield. Al said the Webley was a civilian model I think.

............Buckshot

[Ed Barrett]

Sweet looking pistol, you will have to let us know how they shoot.

[9.3X62AL]

Dunno what it is about this caliber......it just appeals to me. Something about a caliber whose boolit is longer than the case that carries it is unique and special.

I got a truckload of ammo for this critter just a-waiting a range test. Gonna clean it up--needs a little lubrication of moving parts--check the dimensions, and sally forth in the next day or two.

I'll have to look closely when I take it out of the safe--I have its look-alike brother in 32-20, same 5" barrel length too.

[lar45]

Now that is definately nice to look at. I bet it's even nicer to hold. How is the trigger on it? Nice and sweet as a S&W can be?

I ran into an old feller in a Gun shop in SLC a couple of years ago, trying to get some money for his Colt M&P 38 special. The punk behind the counter was tryin to bend this guy over. I could tell the guy needed the money, but new what he had and what it was worth. I spoke up and voiced my disaproval on the low price, then stepped outside. In abit, the old guy came out and we stepped over to his truck. He was a real pleasant guy and he new I wasn't about to go hold up a 7-11. The gun was in great shape and well cared for. I paid him cash above book value, shook his hand and wished him well. It shoots perfectly to point of aim with factory 148 RN's and the action is very smooth, no glitchs, rough spots or anything. Looking at your new wards, I hope they turn out the same way.

Just went and took pics, it's the Official Police model.
http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/misc/38colt.jpg

[Four Fingers of Death]

if there are two broad arows pointing at each other it would have been an australian issue pistol. We had these in the tank regiment when I was in it. We were upposed to have Browning Hi Powers, but things were short and most of the hi powers went to Vietnam.

[BruceB]

The very first handgun I owned in my life was a fairly-decent DWM Luger P'08, which got sold for textbook money in a dry spell.

The SECOND handgun of my "career" was a Victory Model .38 S&W just like the subjects of the current thread. At the time, I was doing mineral exploration in remote parts of the Northwest Territories (read: BEAR COUNTRY, in spades) and I knew very little indeed about handguns. I was quite conversant with rifles, but not handguns.

Soooo....one day in camp I decided to unleash the fearsome power of the .38 S&W against an inoffensive birch sapling, less than three inches in diameter. I walked right up to it, pointed-and-pulled, and took a look at the far side to view the carnage from the "exit wound". Heh....not a TRACE of any disturbance on the back side! Virginal, unmarked.....it didn't even come CLOSE to penetrating three inches of wood! Let's just say that my plans for defending myself against bears with this S&W underwent a hasty re-evaluation.

I was already a dyed-in-the-wool nut, at 21....the guns in that two-man tent camp included, among others, a .32-40 Winchester 94 with octagon 26" barrel, and a 9mm Sten submachinegun. The Sten would have been interesting to try against a bear, but the opportunity (or necessity) never arose. Even with FMJ ammo, a 32-round full-auto burst would have gotten its attention, I'd bet. An Aussie-issue Mk III .303, altered to a carbine configuration, actually did the heavy lifting for camp defense. I do have great respect for the .303 British, having used it in a number of tight spots over the years with perfect success. I do NOT think much of the cartridges the Brits selected for their revolvers!

[9.3X62AL]

The 38 S&W isn't a thundergun, by any means. Buckshot said something the other day that rang true--something like, the 38 S&W isn't pretentious and doesn't pretend to be something other than what it is. Kind of refreshing, in these days of over-hyped whizzbang cartridges in both rifles and handguns.

The 38 S&W is for punching paper and small game/varmints. Period. For social projects, the 38 Special and 9mm are "floor" calibers to me. Add in the 32 ACP and 9mm Makarov for more discreet carry. This old caliber is for fun, just like the 32 S&W Long/Magnum or the 30 Mauser/30 Luger. That said, the 195 Lyman #358430 does pretty convincing work when it connects on jackrabbits, despite its unpromising blunt RN shape. Same goes for the Makarov, BTW.

My gun is kind of "dry" internally, as if cleaned with Gun Scrubber and not re-lubed. The trigger is pretty crisp, and I'm hoping the D/A stroke smoothes up some when it gets a little lubrication. It's not BAD, but needs a little oil.

[jethrow strait]

Dang, you shur done growed up fast, Victory Model-wise! Last I heard from you on the subject, you were talking about rebarrelin to 38 Special and callin it a Model 10. Must be the mature influence of Deputy Al, Ret.

Shur like mine from the summer of '43, rough as a cob outside with loads of Brit gobbledy-gook markings including "NOT BRITISH MADE" all over it(bureacracy rules, regardless of Yankee Lend-Lease charity or the Nazi gauntlet), but far finer than any later S&W I own, once you take the sideplates off. Even though it seems to be regulated for the lighter 170 some grain boolit, it shoots the long 200 plus grain Lyman 358315(not the 195 gr, 358430, oddly enough)best of all, as long as it drops at least at .361". The 38 S&W case and that boolit make one odd-looking coupling---but it works!---------jethrow

[BCB]

I was interested in this topic of Victory series Smith’s. I acquired one from my grandfather’s estate auction. The handgun (38 Special-SN: V10XXXX) was actually his sister’s or my great aunt’s. She worked for the Railroad or maybe the Federal Government as she was a mail handler at the rail station. This station later became the local post office. Regardless, it was told to me that she was issued this handgun. I really don’t know if this could be true or not. And I don’t know whether it was the RR or the Government that might have given her this handgun. I don’t know the timeframe she worked at the rail station but I suspect it was in the early to late 1940’s. Is it possible she was issued this handgun and was allowed to keep it—or maybe she just kept it whether she was allowed to or not. I understand she was a very flamboyant, social, party-type—well you get the picture!
It sure is a good shooter with 358429’s and 38-148-WC’s. It ain’t worth much, but it sort of reminds me of an Eliot Ness (G-man) handgun…BCB

[44man]

If the bad guy has on a heavy coat, he is most likely safe from the 38 S&W. I repaired one years and years ago and test fired it at a 2X4. I was in the city so I just piled 2X4's on the rear floor of my dads old junker and hung my arm over the front seat to see if the gun functioned. All the bullets were sticking up out of the wood half their length. MAN, is that power or what?

[Buckshot]

............Jethrow, well I get all tangled up in that peestol nomenclature ya know? Just don't come natural like for me. I mean I can pretty much pick out a revolter 8 of 10 tries from a pile of handguns. Mostly. Yet I don't overly concern myself, because these days it IS a M10, K frame. Back then it was a M&P, and then a Victory model. It should be fun to shoot, regardless.

............4fingermick, nope broad arrows pointing up. On the lower right front of the frame it has: D/i\D (that /i\ thing is supposed to be a broad arrow :D. Then below that it's stamped: FTR M 54

Below that in a column is:
M /i\ (stylized M? Ie rounded humps, or maybe a crown?)
10
L

On the bottom of the pistol grip is I suspect the inspectors stamp: GHD

The barrel, frame and cylinder all carry the serial number V 278737 (the cylinder doesn't have a V.

My other one, below:

http://www.fototime.com/20E262CE102F9D8/standard.jpg
Is blued and has had it's barrel bobbed to 4". A very fine job as in only a couple small places can you see the silver solder under the front sight. It no longer wears those funky plastic grips :D.

It's serial number is V 534259 and there is no inspector's stamp. Nor is it marked 'United States Property', and exhibits no further markings beyond the S&W markings on the sideplate and barrel. The machinework is commercial grade with no broach or other machine marks.

The trigger on the blued one is almost as good as that on my M14-4. The trigger on this new Victory model breaks with no apparent takeup, but it's harder to pull.

.............LAR45, that's a very fine looking pistol. That's the one I saw in a local gunshop pistol case and told Deputy Al I'd seen a Colt Officer's Model.

.............BCB, I read an article (don't recall where) about the government arming certain postal emplyee's and bank personnel. It's been quite awile ago but I seem to recall it was to do with the gangster problems, prohibition, etc. That would have placed it in the 30's I suspect. The government did buy some Thompson's for the postal service.

It could very well have been that your great aunt's boss merely gave her the pistol thinking she might need it? Interesting anyway, but if it was a Victory model that would have placed it in the 40's.

..............44Man, yeah it's not a real awe inspiring cartridge! It's not too far behind the 38 Special in some loadings. One nice thing about these Victory models is that they can be loaded to 38 Special pressures, since that's what they really are after all. You just can't use 38 Special data because of case capacity differences.

There is an exception to that as the Lyman manual shows a 38 Special target load with a wadcutter seated flush. In the Victory model you can seat that wadcutter out to the same OAL for the same case volumn, and use that exact data. Seating the slugs way out is my normal practice, and the Lyman 358430 makes it all look a tad odd as there is almost as much boolit exposed as there is case. It places the nose not too distant from the cylinder mouth.

I do this mainly to try and take up some of the windage in that long 38 Special length cylinder. As I was typing this I recalled that at the range we tried to fit 38 Specials into the cylinder and they wouldn't go. Yet my blued one WILL accept them. I just looked down both cylinders from the rear. The blued one does have a definate step in the chamber, but it is nowhere near as pronounced as in the other one.

Looking again at the blued one, you can for sure see a leade or ramp toward the end of each chamber. The new pistol is a straight cylinder beyond the step. I'll bet someone has run a 38 Special reamer into the chambers of the blued one! This would account for the step being smaller in height and that ramped throat in the chambers. Aha! BTW, I HAVE fired 38 Specials in the blued one before.

................Buckshot

[Urny]

I worked for the Post Office in the late 60's to early 70's and became friends with the crusty, one eyed old union Democrat who ran the postage due/registered mail cage. One day while working to help out in his department, probably during the Christmas rush, he unlocked the safe and showed me the old, old, Colt New Service, and the six rounds of old, old .38 Special ammo he was given for it. Don't remember anything else about it, but have always wondered why the Post Office bought those instead of just getting some M1917s' from the Army or Navy. The government moves in strange ways. I'll bet if the information was available, we would find all kinds of strange armaments purchased through the years by many different agencies.

[9.3X62AL]

I cleaned up the Victory Model yesterday, and the bore is FLAWLESS. Same story with the chambers and throats, and slugging the throats showed .363"-.364" dimensions. You could almost paper-patch a 358" boolit to fit. :-)

Serial #'s on frame, barrel, and cylinder all match. Once some Break-Free was dropped into the lockwork, the D/A sequence smoothed up noticeably. In this dry climate, you can get away with using Gun Scrubber and maybe not suffer corrosion--but I loathe dessicated gun metal. The S/A stroke is crisp, but heavier than the commercial M&P I have in 32-20.

The chambers and throats show a rotary-polished aspect like that seen in the Old Days during inspections......deputies would chuck a bore brush into a hand power drill and "clean" the chambers in that way. I hope this "polishing" wasn't why the throats are "widened" a little outside specs.

I'm going to size some Makarov boolits I have laying around to .365" and see how 38 S&W casings loaded with throat diameter boolits fit in the cylinders. While a lot of shooters correctly regard the 38 S&W as a step in the direction of the 38 Special that began in 1877, 38 S&W ammunition is dimensionally a lot closer to the 9mm Makarov. The Mak dies get used in at least one step of the reloading process with the 38 S&W, varying with case make and finish.

[BCB]

.............BCB, I read an article (don't recall where) about the government arming certain postal emplyee's and bank personnel. It's been quite awile ago but I seem to recall it was to do with the gangster problems, prohibition, etc. That would have placed it in the 30's I suspect. The government did buy some Thompson's for the postal service.

It could very well have been that your great aunt's boss merely gave her the pistol thinking she might need it? Interesting anyway, but if it was a Victory model that would have placed it in the 40's.


................Buckshot[/QUOTE]

Buckshot,

I knew there were discrepancies with the stories that have been passed along in the family. I also know that since this S&W is a Victory model, it had to have been in the 40’s and not during the “G-Man” days. Yet, there still is a mystery to this woman even after nearly 50 years. She certainly caused some of the ladies at our family reunions to whisper secretly to each other! She caused some of the men folk as I remember to do a bit of staring! And she always had to hug and kiss us snot-nosed kids! We all hated that, but I distinctly remember her perfume, long red fingernails and those tight-waisted dresses—I was only 5 but I was an early starter! And the more I think about it, I’ll bet she was packin’ that Smith in her purse—now I own it—if only it could talk…BCB

[Buckshot]

............BCB, "She certainly caused some of the ladies at our family reunions to whisper secretly to each other! She caused some of the men folk as I remember to do a bit of staring! And she always had to hug and kiss us snot-nosed kids! We all hated that, but I distinctly remember her perfume, long red fingernails and those tight-waisted dresses—I was only 5 but I was an early starter! And the more I think about it, I’ll bet she was packin’ that Smith in her purse—now I own it—if only it could talk…BCB"

She may have been a wild one! All that whispering was just jealousy coverup! It WOULD be neat to learn of it's history and how she came to have it.

.........I oiled the pistol up, after Deputy Al's post, but didn't bother to pull the sideplate. I'll do that later. Set up the Dillon. I wonder how many shellplates they sell for the 38 S&W :D? Well I have one, anyway. I have a whole raft of WC's cast up in pure lead from the 4 banger Lyman BruceB sold me. They drop at .363" and a bit.

Loaded up 10 over 2.7grs of Bullseye to start. The boolit's crimped in the bottom lube groove so it sticks out there pretty well. Tried one in the Victory and that boolit just so smoooooothly snugs in that long throat. Defiantely NOT speedloader type 'fall in there' ammo. I have some 148gr Lee WC's cast up in pure lead (.3588') and LA lubed to experiment with too.

Guess I oughta try some 35430's too, but they're cast kinda hard (WW) and are lubesized .358" so I don't hold much hope, but who knows?

http://www.fototime.com/F6696E3245BE49B/standard.jpg
I'd made up a swage die sometime back to form hollowbase, hollownosed or a combination of both in a WC type boolit for the 38 S&W at .362" and they sure made my blued version do everything except sit up and give buttermilk. I only have about 20 of those on hand but I'll load them up too.

A) is the 148gr Lee with a HB. B) is the Lee 358-158RF swaged into a WC and HB'd and C is the 195 gr Ly358430 RN again made into a WC and hollowbased. I suppose I'll have to cast some of the heavyweights up in pure lead. I should be able to go to the range with about 150 rounds loaded up for the new peestol Tuesday. I sure hope it shoots halfway decent!

...............Buckshot

[Bret4207]

Re the 38S+W and it's awsome power- True, factory loads are less than inspiring. However lets recall that there are 386,000 gazillion old H+R, IJ, H+A and other lesser quality 38 S+W "night stand/suicide specials" out there. Even my S+W Perfected model is a bit on the light side for turning the 38S+W into a "social" round. I have a PB 150 gr SWC Lyman, might be 360271S or something like that. Loaded to safe levels of 700 fps or so I'd not want to be standing in front of it. I got the 358430 to play with, but my Perfected ( the top break with the thumb latch too) is a bit light for it. By all accounts I can find the Perfected is OK to use the 38-200/38 S+W Super Police load in, but it torques some fierce with standard stuff to say nothing of a 200 grain boolit. Wish I'd bought the Enfield I saw last year. Fun little cartridge at any rate. Henry Stebbins "Handguns" book from the early 60's lists anecdotal eveidence that the 38 S+W Super Police load did very fine work for a bunch of cops in the 30's and 40's. Of course the "Glock and rock" crowd would never look at it because the 38 S+W with a 146 gr round at 700 fps would be no match for a 9mm round with a 147 at 800 fps. ( Thats the actual velocity I got fom the famed "FBI load" out of a Glock 17. Truth be told later boxes of that load went closer to 900) Besides, there's only 5 rounds to spray and pray with in a little 38 S+W, 6 in an economy model. Ain't a man in the world who can hit anything with less than 19 rounds!

[9.3X62AL]

Buckshot gave me a copy of a rather dated "Handloader" article by Ken Waters some time ago that covered "high performance" loads in this caliber in selected handguns--meaning, the Webley/Enfield, S&W M&P, and an interesting Ruger variant made up for the Royal Hong Kong Police Department, the Speed-Six x 4". Using the extra cylinder length available in those models, Mr. Waters extended the overall length of Lyman #358430 to almost 38 Special/200 grain OAL, and loaded the boolit to 38 Special velocities--750 FPS plus. Adding 25% more metal to the projectile and maintaining the velocity level upgrades the striking energy and recoil impulse noticeably, and got the sights and barrel of my Enfield more or less on the same page of the book. As indicated above, the Lyman #358430 in the 38 Special does some decent work on smaller critters--anything like a center-mass hit, and they are ANCHORED. There's some indication that boolits are unstable in animated targets, too. This is more than can be said for the 9mm FBI Load mentioned by Bret--any pistol round requiring a double tap on a jackrabbit isn't my idea of a decent service round.

Would I carry the Victory M&P for CCW use? I doubt it, I have other sidearms in better calibers for social work. I just like to breathe life into old calibers, to see what about them made them viable at the time of their introduction and what made them fade from the scene. I've had some pleasant surprises from a couple such calibers over the years.

[Jumptrap]

My first wife's mother had a nickeled Victory model that her late husband had acquired when one of his drunken friends left it in his car. Both drunks had died amd the MIL had the gun. One day she decides to sell it. She demands $125 and so, I ponied up the money.

Now, who or when some idiot had it nickel plated, I'll never know. They had also added some of those ****ty looking plastic grips from herters. But, the innards looked good and it was tight...like a good lady ought to be. Before you ask....when the ex left, she took 'daddy's pistol' with her. HAR!

No, the 38 S&W will win no awards for causing the ground to shake when you light it off. But be damned if I want anybody shooting at me with one! I understand a few of you have been shot and have shot desperados with various tools of the trade. I had a man pull a gun on me once and I told him to he better kill me with the first shot. Obviously, he didn't shoot me, but looking down the barrel of any gun ain't pretty. And so, I am convinced that a 38 S&W is capable of inducing lead poisoning, if not instantaneous death like say a .454 Casull. I carreid that old Victory model in my glove box for a long time and never felt a bit underarmed.

[9.3X62AL]

[QUOTE=No, the 38 S&W will win no awards for causing the ground to shake when you light it off. But be damned if I want anybody shooting at me with one! I understand a few of you have been shot and have shot desperados with various tools of the trade. I had a man pull a gun on me once and I told him to he better kill me with the first shot. Obviously, he didn't shoot me, but looking down the barrel of any gun ain't pretty. And so, I am convinced that a 38 S&W is capable of inducing lead poisoning, if not instantaneous death like say a .454 Casull. I carreid that old Victory model in my glove box for a long time and never felt a bit underarmed.[/QUOTE]

Jump, your account reminded me of an incident early in my career involving a robbery of a convenience store. The clerk was asked what the robber looked like--and responded, "Look like? LOOK LIKE?!! HE LOOKED LIKE A MOTHER----ING HOWITZER IN REEBOKS IS WHAT HE LOOKED LIKE!!"

The clerk was a pretty nice kid, student athlete at College of the Desert, and was a mite invigorated by the experience. It seems the bad guy pointed a revolver at his face, and the impression left was graphically presented by the victim.

[9.3X62AL]

The Victory Model got its test drive yesterday after I received my weekly ass-kicking at the Burrito Match. Come to think of it, I didn't throw in my entry fee yesterday.....I better run by Buckshot's house and pay up later today. Maybe he can be prompted to get out his pin gauges to confirm the throat diameters in these critters. I tried the barrel wall measurement routine at land and groove compared to barrel outside diameter to arrive at groove diameter--what a PITA 5-groove barrels are!

Maybe that whole regimen is a waste of time, though. I tried the Lyman #358430 in WW metal Beagled up to .361", and got no leading in either throats or bore--zero/zip/nada. I didn't try rested work on paper--no, hell no--long distance plinking at rocks tells more about what a load and pistol will do for me at first. So, I let drive at various and sundry small rocks in the backstop berm at ~105-110 yards, and damned if I didn't connect with unexpected regularity! The bogeyman was the revolver's small (for my hands) grips--I did my usual stunt with small-gripped revolvers, casting shots to the left. This tendency is MUCH worse with J-frames, whose old stock grips were well-nigh unusable by yours truly. I was pretty happy with the 38 S&W's performance, overall--what a cool old warhorse. Buckshot had some pretty good results with his revolver on paper, and formed some opinions as to softer boolit alloys in this application that I will let him expand upon. I think he is on to something.

[Buckshot]

...............I did shoot my new Victory model last Tuesday. Shooting a new gun is always a sobering proposition. You don't know what to expect and are cringing in mortal fear that it will be a turkey. Well it wasn't a turkey, but on the other hand it wasn't as good as I had hoped it would be. Naturally we want all our handguns to shoot like a good smooth well set up K38 Smith or a similar Colt Python.

The pistol has chamber mouths that are .362". Sorry to say but I have yet to check the barrel to see what it is. The forcing cone isn't real exciting so I have a friend who is going to lend me his forcing cone reamer setup tomorrow.

In all actuality it shot overall about like you might expect such a wartime production revolver to shoot. So there was no disapointment there. As a further consolation to myself (since it wasn't laying them all throught he same hole at 25 yards) was the fact that these loads were just loaded quick while trying to cover the broadest range possible in 150 rounds. for a quick idea.

The boolits I had on hand were minimal in selection for a 38 S&W, consisting of only 2 wadcutters (Ly 35863 & Lee 358-148) and one roundnose design (Ly 358430).

Taking the 2 wadcutters first, the Lyman 35863's were cast of pure lead and dropped at a tad over .363". I had 10 left of some I had swaged a hollowbase into, so I had that variation but only enough for 1 load. These hollowbased ones come out of the swage die at .362". The Lee's had also been cast in pure lead and tumble lubed. As cast diameter on them (from a 6 cavity mould) all run .3583" to .359".

The Lyman 358430, which is a 195gr RNPB had been cast some time back of WW alloy and miked .3594" to .3601" on the 4-5 I checked. Some had been TL and lube (Javalina) sized to .359" and some had merely been lube (Javalina)-sized to the same OD.

All the brass used was a couple times fired Starline 38 S&W and all had Win SPP. They'd all been sized (partial F/L), mouths flared, etc with crimping being done in the seater die in a Dillon press. All groups were 10 rounds, fired off sanbags at 25 yards.

Rather then rundown every load which would tend to blure together, I'll hit the high (or low) spots as the case may be. First of all I was disappointed that the load of the Lyman 35863 over 2.7grs of Bullseye did as poorly as they did. I had high hopes for the 10 slugs I'd swaged hollowbases on, over the same charge. They were even worse. The solid slugs produced groups, counting all shots of about 3-4".

Naturally there was some clumping of shots, but the slugs all looked good so the flyers were a pisser. The hollowbased ones actually produced a smaller group of about 2" is you could look over 4 flyers. Of these 4, 2 had to have been 6" apart on opposite sides of each other.

For the better results what was shot was not what I was expecting. The Tumble Lubed 148gr Lee WC's over 3.4grs of Red Dot did surprisingly well. Not as well as hoped but considering everything together, the pretty consistant 2" groups were unexpected. The most surprising were the hard and way undersized 195gr Lyman 358430's.

I had loaded these over Blue Dot. I'd loaded 10/ea 5.0, 5.2, 5.4, 5.6, & 5.8grs. The first load right out of the gate was exciting for at least the first 5 rounds. As the charges increased the groups size became smaller and it seemed those I'd call flyers were clanning up. The last group spanned about 1.5" for 7 rounds and all 10 went just a tad over 3". There toward the last, the pistol was bucking pretty good.

Although the big RN Lymans weighed 25% more then the WC's, it's engraving area wasn't any larger so that should be discounted as a reason for their better showing. It's hard to understand how being undersized and cast hard would be a positive? I'm basing some of this on my blued Victory model, and how it responded so positively to the pure lead and swaged HB boolits.

I'm going to wait until I hit the forcing cone with the reamer before doing any more work with the pistol. I DO plan on casting some of the Ly 358430's in much softer alloy and will try them with fast powders, but Blue Dot WILL be tried again, and maybe Unique with the heavies also. I'll test more Red Dot and also use some W231.

............Buckshot