New Model Vaquero's Strength?

[Babbott213]

Just wanted to find out if anyone could tell me just how strong is the New Model Vaquero's in 45LC? I'm loading lite loads right now for plinking. 250gr flat nose cast boolit with 4.5-5.0gr of trail boss. I have loaded some other rounds with Unique at 8.0-8.5gr with the same boolit. I've seen some load data listed for Ruger guns, but I'm suspecting that these loads are for SBH and maybe RH. I'm sticking to published loads, but I was just wanting to know how well the New Model handled the max published loads. If I ever wanted to use them. I try to leave the max loads for my .44Mag in SBH and Desert Eagle anyway.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I can't answer your question exactly-, because how strong is any gun? I believe that any particular gun of any make or model may be individually stronger or weaker than another. But, I have a NM Vaquero in .45 L.C. and have shot the very same load you have listed, and it worked just fine but did not give very good accuracy. So if it does in yours, then there's another proof/indication of what I'm talking about. Now my particular specimen shoots about 6 inches low and 4 inches left with that load. I was kind of dissatisfied and contacted Ruger which said that they use only Winchester factory 250 gr. ammo to zero their revolvers and don't recommend or address the situation of handloads at all. So, before sending it back to them to have it regulated, I broke out a half-box of Win. factory ammo that was about 30 years old and tried it out. The situation improved to about 2 inches left and 2 inches low. I'm still not really happy, but decided to settle for that now and get back to it later. Overall, Rugers have the reputation of being very strong guns, but I would never recommend exceeding the "safe" loads listed in reloading manuals. After all, isn't the load you listed pretty suitable for most uses? If you need more, then it's time to step up to the .454 Casull.

[DougGuy]

Those "Ruger Only" loads are for the large framed models, the SBH, original Vaquero (made 1993 - 2005), BH, Bisley, etc... These large frame guns are good up to 30,000psi loads.

The medium frame New Vaquero and New Model Flattop revolvers are safe to 23,000psi, same as .45 ACP +P pressure. They are NOT SAFE with loads over 23,000psi.

Medium framed Rugers have a THREE digit prefix in their serial numbers, Large framed Rugers have a TWO digit prefix in their serial numbers.

Here is another way to distinguish large frame models from medium frame models, look at the back of the cylinder, the large frame guns have a round boss protruding from the rear of the cylinder where the ratchet star is machined from. The medium frame guns have a "scalloped" boss which the ratchet star is machined from.

Large frame cylinder on LEFT medium frame cylinder on RIGHT:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/Cylinders-Lg-Med_zpsoaou4f6e.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/Cylinders-Lg-Med_zpsoaou4f6e.jpg.html)

[Babbott213]

Thanks, that's just the information that I was looking for. I was just looking at some different loads tonight and it just got me to wondering about the New Model. I'm going to stick with the light loads anyway, but now I've got to find one that will run good in both my New Model V and my 1895 Winchester 45LC Lever gun. That way I can run the same loads in both for plinking and later on SASS shooting.

[jmort]

10 years later, this is still the best article on the subject

https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL_234_preview.pdf

[dubber123]

Ruger just stuck the new Vaquero with the 23,000 Psi limit as that is what .45 ACP +P ammo is loaded to, and it's the "hottest" factory loading the new Vaquero comes with. I don't necessarily think it's too far off of reality, but I don't consider it a hard and fast rule. Yes, I have one, and yes it's still getting tested out.

When cases fall free from a cylinder after firing, I don't get too worried. I would not bat an eye at 8.5 grains of Unique and a 250. I'm shooting a good bit warmer than that right now. Be safe, but don't be too scared of it, they are stronger than most .45 Colt chambered revolvers.

[Harry O]

Just curious. I have two of the new model .45 Colt Vaqueros. I tried the 5.5gr Trail Boss with Starline cases and a 255gr 452424 bullet. The pressure did not seal the cases against the chamber. The front of the cases came out black. It took me about 7gr to get them to seal. BTW, the accuracy abruptly increased when it went from not sealing to sealing.

I have taken Trail Boss (in 0.1gr increments) up to where it filled the case to the bottom of the bullet without compression. From memory, it was about 8.5gr. There were not problems doing that, but there are better powders for higher powered loads.

[Babbott213]

Yeah, when I load for higher power loads I generally load with Unique or Tite Group. I've only loaded with Tite Group once though and have shot some of them through my lever gun. I'm still playing around with this new model V and hope to get a second one here very soon. The loads that I've loaded with Unique at 8.0-8.5gn seemed to shoot well and I had no problems with the case removal from the cylinder as well. I haven't really shot it though for accuracy yet and plan on doing that this week. Gotta get my table set up at my range after I cut the grass.

[dubber123]

Being the older BH .45's were chambered for the same cartridges, I am willing to bet if you called Ruger and asked what they were safe for, they would give you the same rating as the new guns. Not that the new, smaller guns are stronger, but because that is all their legal team will allow. So then, how did the 30,000 Psi ceiling get set on the older, larger frame guns? Simple, enough people loaded successfully for them over a long enough period of time that it was finally accepted procedure.

Eventually the real safety limit of the new guns will come out, and Ruger , (rightfully so), will stick to the SAAMI specs out of liability. In the case of this new Vaquero, I suspect the safe ceiling is a bit north of 23,000 Psi., but not a lot.

I take each gun as an individual. I have had rifles stick cases 1/2 grain over the start load, and I have had others go well beyond, yet still not make specified velocity. Handloading is a learned skill. Do it safe, and the rules are more "guidelines" to keep EVERYONE safe.

If you have a load you are concerned about trying, PM it to me, and if I deem it safe, I will try it for you. There is a thread titled: {New Vaquero, first range report}, in this section if you care to peruse some of the loads I have actually tested. Have fun:)

[pietro]

.


For a direct correlation to loading manuals, New Model Vaquero loads should be no stronger than loads for the Colt SAA.



.

[robertbank]

.


For a direct correlation to loading manuals, New Model Vaquero loads should be no stronger than loads for the Colt SAA.



.

This for the win.

Take Care

Bob

[dubber123]

This for the win.

Take Care

Bob

Colt SAA is 14,000 Psi. Ruger, Yes Ruger says 23,000 Psi is fine. Maybe Ruger doesn't know what they are doing? Sure :)

[M-Tecs]

This info http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm is for the large frame Rugers not New Model Vaquero but the safety factor still applies. How much you can exceed it is unkown until it blows.

[jmort]

The article linked in post #5 has load data for 23k psi.

[robertbank]

Colt SAA is 14,000 Psi. Ruger, Yes Ruger says 23,000 Psi is fine. Maybe Ruger doesn't know what they are doing? Sure :)

From Gunblast.com

"The New Vaquero has cylinder walls that are thinner than those on the .45 Blackhawks and original Vaqueros, and while stronger than the Colt SAA, the New Vaquero should not be used with the heavy loads that are listed as "Ruger Only" in some hand loading manuals. As far as using other heavy commercial loads that exceed industry pressure limits for a .45 Colt, do not use them in the New Vaquero until you have checked with the maker of the ammunition regarding its suitability for this revolver."

If 8.5 gr of Unique under my 255 gr LSWC won't kill what is in front of me I have the wrong gun in my hand. It is posted in manuals as the max. for 45Colt.

There is a reason why warnings are out there. I doubt Ruger recommends their New Model and New Vaqueros be loaded with "Ruger Only" loads meant for the larger frame Blackhawks. I certainly have nevre read anything indicating the smaller frame guns are meant for the "Ruger Only" loadings. Well that is not true you wrote it and I read it.

Take Care

Bob

[dubber123]

From Gunblast.com

"The New Vaquero has cylinder walls that are thinner than those on the .45 Blackhawks and original Vaqueros, and while stronger than the Colt SAA, the New Vaquero should not be used with the heavy loads that are listed as "Ruger Only" in some hand loading manuals. As far as using other heavy commercial loads that exceed industry pressure limits for a .45 Colt, do not use them in the New Vaquero until you have checked with the maker of the ammunition regarding its suitability for this revolver."

If 8.5 gr of Unique under my 255 gr LSWC won't kill what is in front of me I have the wrong gun in my hand. It is posted in manuals as the max. for 45Colt.

There is a reason why warnings are out there. I doubt Ruger recommends their New Model and New Vaqueros be loaded with "Ruger Only" loads meant for the larger frame Blackhawks. I certainly have nevre read anything idicating the smaller frame guns are meant for the "Ruger Only" loadings. Well that is not true you wrote it and I read it.

Take Care

Bob
Take care

Bob


Never once suggested the Ruger only loads, in fact cautioned against them. Ruger, (The people who made the gun), say 23,000 Psi. is fine. That is a long way from SAAMI spec for 45 Colt, which is 14,000 Psi. I PERSONALLY suspect the real max working pressure is a bit higher, but what do I know.. I do know if the Mfg. says 23,000 Psi is safe, you can bet they tested it plenty to be sure of that.

Not all of us are content with leisurely lobbing boolits out there, and some of us have found better accuracy at speed. I don't much care what others load their guns to, I just don't want people afraid to exceed antique Colt specs in a gun capable of much more.

[Whiterabbit]

And this is why I bought the large frame vaquero and not the new one. There's just no question.

[dubber123]

The article linked in post #5 has load data for 23k psi.

Pearce actually say 24,000 Psi is safe, but who's counting? Thanks for the link, I didn't have that one.

[dubber123]

And this is why I bought the large frame vaquero and not the new one. There's just no question.


You certainly have the stronger gun. The accepted max for your gun was arrived at by the same method it will be for this one, by shooters and gun writers testing it, and reporting their results. I can assure you Ruger never publicly announced that Blackhawks in .45 Colt were perfectly safe with 30,000 Psi loads. Common sense and testing proved that they were.

[DougGuy]

Some years back Ruger hired a 3rd party to "test" some of their guns and find out exactly how far they would go. I -think- they tested the .44 Magnum and maybe the .45 Colt in the Blackhawk format, and they reported that it took an average of 60,000psi to grenade one. This would be the full size large framed models, not the medium framed guns.

The .44 Special New Model Flattop is a neat one, since the cylinder walls are a bit thicker than they would be on the .45 Colt cylinders, they should be good to 25,000 or thereabouts?

I personally am collecting stuff to do a Schofield conversion on a medium frame Vaquero or Flattop. A shortened .45 Colt, the Schofield brass should raise the load density, make for better more consistent ignition and powder burn, I think a 260gr boolit at 1180 ~ 1200fps is doable and still remain in the 23,000psi pressure ceiling.

[dubber123]

I would have no qualms at all about running one of the medium frame .44 Spls at 25,000 Psi. It seems like a small increase in thickness over the .45's, but It looks more substantial in person. I am sure many of my 45 Colt loads are right in the realm of 25,000 Psi, and cases literally shake free from the cylinder, even with a decent amount of fouling in the chambers.

I would assume you must be looking at a longer barrel to achieve your 1,200 fps goal with your Schofield conversion? I will chrono my 260 gr. loads and report back. That will help you judge whether your goal is attainable at that pressure level.

[Piedmont]

I personally am collecting stuff to do a Schofield conversion on a medium frame Vaquero or Flattop. A shortened .45 Colt, the Schofield brass should raise the load density, make for better more consistent ignition and powder burn, I think a 260gr boolit at 1180 ~ 1200fps is doable and still remain in the 23,000psi pressure ceiling.

I hope you will write that up for the board when you complete the revolver. A buddy and I were contemplating that conversion also. It would be easiest on a convertible .45 Blackhawk (large or medium frame) since one could just use the ACP cylinder for the conversion.

[DougGuy]

So far, I have a box of once fired Schofield brass, Lee .45 Schofield dies, numerous boolits I could use, I'm thinking the 453423 might find it's way into some of them, and I have a Clymer .45 Colt finishing reamer headed this way. The only thing I need now, is a suitable donor pistol with a .45 ACP cylinder.

Personally I think Ruger should offer an optional 3rd cylinder for their convertibles chambered in .45 Schofield. They want to sell cowboy guns, here's another perfect chance for them to offer one.

[Outpost75]

Back in the 1980s when I worked for the company, the standard admonition from William B. Ruger, Sr., whenever he visited the Newport, NH facility where I was employed, was:

"Young man, your job is to sell what is in the CATALOG!.....NOT to think up new models!"

The reality for established distributors, was to take an up-front, pre-paid 500 piece order, IF it could be assembled from existing parts without any re-engineering.

[dubber123]

Back in the 1980s when I worked for the company, the standard admonition from William B. Ruger, Sr., whenever he visited the Newport, NH facility where I was employed, was:

"Young man, your job is to sell what is in the CATALOG!.....NOT to think up new models!"

The reality for established distributors, was to take an up-front, pre-paid 500 piece order, IF it could be assembled from existing parts without any re-engineering.

Luckily for us, Ruger has come up with some very cool guns using existing parts. Once I learned how to cure their as delivered triggers, they have become much more interesting to me. Just as the prices went way up of course. :)

[DougGuy]

Back in the 1980s when I worked for the company, the standard admonition from William B. Ruger, Sr., whenever he visited the Newport, NH facility where I was employed, was:

"Young man, your job is to sell what is in the CATALOG!.....NOT to think up new models!"

The reality for established distributors, was to take an up-front, pre-paid 500 piece order, IF it could be assembled from existing parts without any re-engineering.

So you use a .45 Colt reamer and you short stroke it to make .45 Schofield. It uses IN STOCK items that they produce every day. No additional tooling, assembled from existing parts.

[bigted]

man I do believe that more folks should load a few loads of the original loads of 40 grains 3F real blackpowder and compress it enough to seat a 255 grain flat point molded from a #2 alloy and shove 5 in the revolver and have at it. this IS the load that was considered THE MAGNUM from 1873 till the evolution in 1935 of the 357 MAGNUM round. even then the 357 was loaded with a puny 158 grain jacketed bullet [I believe] at a very fast rate of speed which gave the slight edge to the new 357 mag cartridge over the venerable old Colt 45 round.

if you load these rounds like above and decide you need further horsepower ... then it should be in the form of a 44 Mag or the newer still 454 rounds.

give the old bugger its rein and try some of the soft old original 45 Colt loadings and get back with us. no worries with too much pressure as these original 40 grain loads were easy on the revolver and hard on the wrist/hand as well as whom ever is the recipient of that 255 grain fairly soft lead chunk hummin at them thru that big billow of lovely smellin smoke.

[bob208]

the ruger only loads started with the old three screw frames. which are the same size as the new vaquero.

why the special cylinder for the schofield round just shoot it in the colt cylinder. the army did it back in the old days.
yes if you need anything hotter then the bp load then you need a magnum.

[DougGuy]

the ruger only loads started with the old three screw frames. which are the same size as the new vaquero.

why the special cylinder for the schofield round just shoot it in the colt cylinder. the army did it back in the old days.
yes if you need anything hotter then the bp load then you need a magnum.

There were some Blackhawks made up to 1959 with smaller frames and thinner cylinders but the ruger only loads hadn't come into being until way after the SBH was in production. Bill Ruger himself blew up one of the thin ones with a magnum load and a 250gr boolit which brought about the redesign and the birth of the SBH. These were 3 screw models also with rebated cylinders that are the same size as modern BH and SBH.

Having a cylinder reamed for the schofield just insures it is accurate instead of bouncing out of the case mouth and then slamming into the back side of the cylinder throat.

[robertbank]

Doug Guy accuracy is not an issue shooting 38spl in 357mag cylinders so why would it be any different in the 45 Colt, shooting the shorter cases in the longer cylinder. Not sure the bouncing around you speak of has much real affect on accuracy for most shooters. The only reason I can see for making a Schofield is because you can which is reason enough most of the time.:D

Take Care

Bob

[bob208]

the old model Blackhawk was made from 1970 to 1973. they used the same frame as the .41 mag and .357. the gun bill ruger blew up was a old model .44 mag made on the small frame. the new model guns were not that easy to get until the end of 74. I had seen and even fired ruger only loads in 73. by the end of 74 they even had contender only loads.

[Outpost75]

So you use a .45 Colt reamer and you short stroke it to make .45 Schofield. It uses IN STOCK items that they produce every day. No additional tooling, assembled from existing parts.

YES, "could", but the lawyer's wrinkle is that there are no current SAAMI standards or Proof ammunition available in this caliber in the US. CIP does list it, because Uberti and Filli Pietta must proof them to export. So if they had a large enough order to justify it, they could buy proof and function ammo from Fiocchi. When the Mini Thirty was being developed I obtained the CIP drawings gages and tooling from FN, and bought proof loads in Finland.

A thousand gun order would probably fly. Now all you need to do is convince a distributor to do it.

[Piedmont]

the old model Blackhawk was made from 1970 to 1973. they used the same frame as the .41 mag and .357. the gun bill ruger blew up was a old model .44 mag made on the small frame. the new model guns were not that easy to get until the end of 74. I had seen and even fired ruger only loads in 73. by the end of 74 they even had contender only loads.

The Old Model was made a lot longer than that and the .41 and .357 were on different frame sizes until the New Model came out in 73. After that both were on the large frame until recently (2005) when Ruger started offering a small frame again.

[Piedmont]

No one is going to buy a factory Schofield, Doug. Why do you think Uberti offered a longer cylinder when they did their Schofield copy and went .45 Colt? No, a Schofield is only for a revolver nut like Doug Guy, and it will be a custom job.

[M-Tecs]

Some info on the old model Blackhawk .45 Colt.

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=148208

[bob208]

the .45 colt was from 1970-1973.

strange my old model .41 and old model .357 both look like the same frame size to me. the grips and grip frames both interchange.

[DougGuy]

No one is going to buy a factory Schofield, Doug. Why do you think Uberti offered a longer cylinder when they did their Schofield copy and went .45 Colt? No, a Schofield is only for a revolver nut like Doug Guy, and it will be a custom job.

Nobody makes factory .45 Schofield ammo either that I know of unless a boutique supplier makes it. I don't mind custom (cussed em) jobs I do a lot of stuff that leaves a picture of the guy who did it behind so this will fit right in there. Old school Schofield ballistics do not entice me in the least to do this. Bringing a fine revolver to the edge of it's 23,000psi ceiling and having consistent, accurate, fun to shoot loads that can also hunt deer does entice me. I just am thinking that a tad less case volume for these less than magnum loads is a good thing.

[robertbank]

Doug 8.5 gr of Unique under a 250/260 grain LSWC will bring down anything in N.A. @ 16K pressure. Beyond that it is just a sore wrist.

Take Care

Bob

[44man]

I had the original flat top in 56 and shot the 429421 with 22 gr of 2400 for years.
When I bought my .45 Vaquero I got the large frame and you would not believe the loads it can take all day. My friend bought one and he was told by cast Precision to load the 335 gr until he seen pressure signs, well he never got any and was at 30 gr of 296 when he turned me white, PLEASE DON'T DO THAT. Brass still fell out. That boolit works with 21.5 gr.
To see the strength of a Ruger or BFR is something and even though another gun is touted to be the strongest, I don't think so.
I was told I overloaded the other gun in .357 when I used common IHMSA loads of 16 gr of 296 with the 158 gr Speer. Dang, a S&W can digest that load!

[dubber123]

I had the original flat top in 56 and shot the 429421 with 22 gr of 2400 for years.
When I bought my .45 Vaquero I got the large frame and you would not believe the loads it can take all day. My friend bought one and he was told by cast Precision to load the 335 gr until he seen pressure signs, well he never got any and was at 30 gr of 296 when he turned me white, PLEASE DON'T DO THAT. Brass still fell out. That boolit works with 21.5 gr.
To see the strength of a Ruger or BFR is something and even though another gun is touted to be the strongest, I don't think so.
I was told I overloaded the other gun in .357 when I used common IHMSA loads of 16 gr of 296 with the 158 gr Speer. Dang, a S&W can digest that load!

Jim, you and Mr. Baker really don't see eye to eye.. ;) I have that "other" gun, and it loves 15 grs. of H-110 with a 220 gr. boolit. Cases last forever, and just fall out of the gun. Your 158 load is a cap gun load for one of those "other" guns :)

[james nicholson]

My Vaquero has the 3 digit prefix, but it has the round boss cylinder.??

[dubber123]

My Vaquero has the 3 digit prefix, but it has the round boss cylinder.??

One of those cases of never say "never" or "always" when it comes to gun companies.. :)

[44man]

Jim, you and Mr. Baker really don't see eye to eye.. ;) I have that "other" gun, and it loves 15 grs. of H-110 with a 220 gr. boolit. Cases last forever, and just fall out of the gun. Your 158 load is a cap gun load for one of those "other" guns :)
That is true but I was admonished about it.
Darn I seen an old guy at every shoot with a S&W .357 where he had to bang the ejector rod on a post to eject shells. He did that for years. I have no idea what he loaded.
How can you HURT the other gun?
I think the BFR's are the strongest ever made, stronger then a Ruger and use Carpenter steels but thicker. Ruger casts the parts for them and might be a reason Ruger does not come out with larger calibers and frames. There is an association between Ruger and MR. All to the good.
The BFR is an overbuilt Ruger. But they use hand lapped Badger barrels with faster twist rates.
Remember the Lone Eagle? They tested to try and blow it up, never did even when the brass case was melted to the chamber. Yep, brass melted and fused to the steel.

[dubber123]

There were numerous loads printed for the "other" .357 back in the day that ran past 65,000 Psi. The primer pockets would get VERY loose in 1 firing, but no damage to the gun whatsoever. It is designed for 45 and .475 cals at close to 60,000 Psi, uses the same frame and cylinder diameter, but has piddling little .35 cal holes in it. It is pretty much indestructible.

[44man]

There were numerous loads printed for the "other" .357 back in the day that ran past 65,000 Psi. The primer pockets would get VERY loose in 1 firing, but no damage to the gun whatsoever. It is designed for 45 and .475 cals at close to 60,000 Psi, uses the same frame and cylinder diameter, but has piddling little .35 cal holes in it. It is pretty much indestructible.
Agree with you. The problems we had were oversize and out of round bores and grooves. Took 3 barrel changes to get it right. A perfect throat size of .357" and a groove of .359" to .3599" did not work. The groove should have been .3565". I don't know who makes their barrels.
With the precision the guns are built to and the cost, barrels should be air gauged before installation.
They are darn strong in any case.
It was personal with us because I was accused of shooting lead before jacketed and expanding the bore, not true so I was told slugging the bore left lead behind to ruin the bore.
The man would not pay shipping unless you got nasty with him. Not me, but the owner. never heard so much cussing both ways when he called.
He did so wrong he went bankrupt.

[dubber123]

Mine had a large, oval bore too. It would have been easier for you to send it to Doug, and have the throats reamed.. :) Thats what I did. Fantastic cast shooter now. You are right, for the money, there should be 0 issues, and fantastic service. Sadly, not the case.

[DougGuy]

My Vaquero has the 3 digit prefix, but it has the round boss cylinder.??

Pics please? What caliber is your Vaquero? The .45 caliber has the scalloped ratchet boss. Smaller calibers with three digit prefix may have the round boss, I don't own anything smaller than a .44 so I don't have one here to look at.

[44man]

Mine has two digits 55-XXXXX and has the same ratchet as a SBH.
I do not understand a round boss. The outer edge of the cylinder is rounded. Not really round, more flat.

[nickeda85]

At LGS last weekend and noticed two Blackhawks, both listed as New Models but with $100 difference in price.
Looked closer and figured one must have been the older, larger framed model but until turned around to see thickness of cylinder walls could not discern a noticeable difference between the two. Remembered this thread and looked to find BOTH had a two digit prefix, 55-XXXXX.
Guy working the shop said it was because they were ordered at times when prices were different. Really?
Been wondering since if the older is worth the extra money or not since doubt would ever need the extra oomph, at least if I stay in this area. Or...could order one with convertible cylinder in 45ACP for similar money. Maybe since it's an 'old' model could talk them down some in price. :wink:
What is everyone's thoughts, worth it or not?

D. Nickel

[44man]

Any old Ruger is worth it. Shop people are in a spot with what they paid and still make a profit.
Ruger made a ton of guns that went away fast so they are worth more money. Then they bring them back and stop production again.
My first Flat Top was $96 can you imagine what it would be worth today? My mark I was $37.50. My first S&W 29 was $140.

[DougGuy]

Mine has two digits 55-XXXXX and has the same ratchet as a SBH.
I do not understand a round boss. The outer edge of the cylinder is rounded. Not really round, more flat.


Here is another way to distinguish large frame models from medium frame models, look at the back of the cylinder, the large frame guns have a round boss protruding from the rear of the cylinder where the ratchet star is machined from. The medium frame guns have a "scalloped" boss which the ratchet star is machined from.

Large frame cylinder on LEFT medium frame cylinder on RIGHT:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/Cylinders-Lg-Med_zpsoaou4f6e.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/Cylinders-Lg-Med_zpsoaou4f6e.jpg.html)

The .44 and .45 caliber medium frame (3 digit prefix) revolvers are scalloped because that's the only way they could fit 6 chambers into the smaller dimensions of the cylinder.

The New Model Flattop in .357 caliber is NOT SCALLOPED because the cartridges are smaller in diameter. Although these revolvers have a 3 digit prefix in their serial numbers, there was no need to machine extra clearance in to the ratchet star for the cartridge rims.

New Model Flattop .357 cylinder:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/NMF357cylinder_zps3q7i7q06.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/NMF357cylinder_zps3q7i7q06.jpg.html)

[lightload]

Hot loads in polished and not over size chambers may not produce hard to extract brass. I'm thinking that fired brass extraction ease is not always a true test of excessive pressure.

Doug, what say you here?

[robertbank]

Thanks DougGuy, the pictures no doubt will help and the explanation dispels myths.

Take Care

Bob

[44man]

Very good explanation, thanks much.

[DougGuy]

Hot loads in polished and not over size chambers may not produce hard to extract brass. I'm thinking that fired brass extraction ease is not always a true test of excessive pressure.

Doug, what say you here?

You cannot go by brass alone. There are no GUARANTEED visual pressure signs. Period!

There are some that most of us EQUATE to a certain level of pressure and many of them do work. As you said with really polished charge holes brass would come out pretty easy once it has moved a fraction of an inch. On average, SBH cylinders have a lot of ridges in them and when pressure forms brass to these ridges it can be daunting to remove sometimes. Depending on how rough the ridges are, this could be an accurate enough pressure sign that would give an indication to stop firing and disassemble those loads.

OTOH, factory ammo may be difficult to extract, and one would think this would be a sign of overpressure when in fact it is just a rough charge hole grabbing the brass. There was a thread on this forum within the last year where the shooter was experiencing stiff extraction, and 4 or 5 pages of replies later, it was found to be rough charge holes that were remedied by polishing.

Normally, stiff extraction, coupled with flattened primers, would be a dead giveaway that something is not right, something is too hot and should be at least looked at to see if there is a problem or see if the load is near or slightly overcharged. If the cylinder won't turn, this is another dead giveaway that something isn't right! Any two of these three signs should be taken as a sign of excessive pressure, but not stiff extraction of brass by itself.

Edit: It would be just a GUESS, but to lock up a cylinder in a SBH would probably take near 50,000 psi to accomplish this task, and it is a documented fact that some Ruger cylinders can and will come apart at 60,000 psi.. Ruger hired an outside firm to destructively test some of their guns and they were regularly grenading at 60,000 psi. I do not remember which caliber(s) they were testing but I think it was .44 Magnum in a SBH. I could be mistaken on that one so don't quote me on it.

These were NOT medium framed guns they were testing, they were the large framed single action revolvers. I would dare to say that if you locked up a cylinder in a medium frame Vaquero or NM Flattop, in .44 or .45 caliber you would likely scatter pieces of this firearm all over the range. I seriously doubt the medium frame big bores will stand up to 50,000 psi and stay together for even one firing.

[dubber123]

Hot loads in polished and not over size chambers may not produce hard to extract brass. I'm thinking that fired brass extraction ease is not always a true test of excessive pressure.

Doug, what say you here?

"Polished and not oversize chambers" This eliminates every Ruger I have ever had.. :) They are not known for tight chambers or polishing anything that doesn't need it. Doesn't mean they are bad, just not tight or polished.

Primers are not a good indication of pressure. I have found pierced primers in handguns before seeing flattened primers. Extraction difficulty has always been the first indicator that the gun wasn't happy, and I have very seldom ever run into that, as I work all loads up slowly.

I am no expert, but do tend to push guns during load workup to see what they like, and their limits. In the thin cylindered New Vaqueros, I would expect a bulge in the thin locking bolt cutouts, which certainly make for hard extraction, followed by a "jugged" cylinder, followed by a split or kaboom, as pressures increased. I've never even bulged a locking bolt notch, much less anything worse.

They are advertised as safe to 23,000 Psi., by the people who make them for a living. They of course will warranty them for as low a pressure as possible, as that gives them the biggest margin of error to not get sued. I personally think the safe working pressure is slightly higher, but not much. If I ever manage to run into trouble, rest assured I will report my findings. Don't hold your breath though, these are rugged little revolvers.:)

[44man]

I agree, there is no pat indication of pressure in a revolver. Primers mean nothing. What you can shoot all day from a Ruger would destroy a Colt. I don't know about after market guns made in other countries.

[robertbank]

For those who quote pressure limits and how far they think they can go some might ask, "How do you know what pressure you are at or where you are going to be?". I agree Rugers are strong and modern day Colt's and Beretta/Uberti repos are much stronger guns than the originals made 70+ years ago one can feel safe at SAMMI limits but when you go beyond those limits..... why not just buy a different gun/cartridge combo? God only knows we now have cartridges that would make Arnold S. wince.

Take Care

Bob

[dubber123]

I let the gun tell me. Printed, pressure tested loads abound for even these new Vaqueros. Sticking to weak kneed early Colt ballistics is fine, if thats all you want. If the Mfg. calls a certain psi safe, and loads are listed in that range, why not? Safe is safe.
A single action .45 Colt is a large/heavy gun. I am personally not content with carrying one if it doesn't produce a certain amount of horsepower. If it's going to be on the weak side, I will carry a cap and ball revolver. I don't advocate abuse or reckless use of any gun, but idling a .45 Colt seems silly to me. They needn't be all barnstormers, but .45 ACP ballistics from a case over twice it's size isn't for me.

[robertbank]

dubber123 do you really think 8.5 gr of Unique under a 255 gr LSWC is weak kneed. The load will kill anything walking in North America. More "horsepower" is not going to kill anything quicker or more deader. As you wish though.

Take Care

Bob

[dubber123]

[QUOTE=robertbank;3280842]dubber123 do you really think 8.5 gr of Unique under a 255 gr LSWC is weak kneed. The load will kill anything walking in North America. More "horsepower" is not going to kill anything quicker or more deader. As you wish though.

Take Care

Bob

I figured that would attract your attention Bob. :) Yes, and no. Sure, it will kill anything in the states. The same has been proven of the .22 LR many times over. The LC is a big case, it can make much more power than the old BP loads at safe pressures. It seems silly to me to not exploit that fact. It's a big cartridge, which makes for big guns. If I am going to haul one around, it will be performing to it's size and weight.

I don't really care what others load their LC's to, I'm just happy people are shooting. I just don't like it when people limit guns for unreasonable reasons. If I had an original Colt SAA, I would be delighted to shoot it with factory spec ammo. Because that is the best it can do.

[44man]

I limit nothing. My revolvers get loads that work. Accuracy first, then to kill deer. I don't want no Unique stuff.

[frank505]

Wonder what Bob would think after seeing piles of bear **** this morning that are the diameter of a soup can. I don't carry an anemic load in my 45 colt, 45acp or 44 special because I need power.

[robertbank]

frank |I guarantee you the bears the roam the woods around here are bigger than anything you have in Wyoming so you need not wonder to long.

The local Grizzlies/Brown Bears are the largest of the species due to their diets.

I usually carry a 1911 loaded with 45-08 cartridges or a Uberti SAA in 45LC with a Mossberg Defender as a primary. I have more concerns about Black Bears than I do Browns. Either of the pistols at short range will do as much damage on a bear as anything larger. Otherwise you are going to have a very bad day. I don't regard anything less than the 12 gauge to be much more than hope when it comes to the big bears at close range. We are talking ranges inside of 25 yards or less from when you see one until you meet one. Good luck hauling out your latest hand cannon in time to do you much good. You would be better off carrying a revolver with a a 2" - 3" barrel. Smith makes one for a reason. Bear spray is another option. Making lots of noise when moving around in the bush up here is probably the best defense of all.

Take Care

Bob
ps A friend killed a large Grizzly over in the Yukon with his 5" 460 Smith last summer. It had been wounded and was dying when he shot the nuisance bear in the head. Died instantly.