Get A Large Enough Lathe, Mill, Etc.

[Linstrum]

I moved this over from the swaging forum since the topic changed and this is more appropriate over here. The parent thread was "20-ton hydraulic press"

One bit of advice given here many, many times, by just as many of us who do machinist work is:

BUY AS LARGE OF A LATHE AS IS PRACTICAL!

Same goes for a milling machine and drill press. Precision of a large lathe/milling machine is just as good as a small one, or it should be, and rigidity of a large machine is better than a small one. As Buckshot phrases it, all machine shop tools are made of rubber. Hard to believe until you get to machining something and chattering starts up, that tool bit point will move a quarter inch from where it is supposed to be! Besides that, all machinists end up immediately using their new equipment right at the point where the proposed job is TOO BIG for the machine! I do it all the time, put in something like a brake drum and find out that it is too big to clear the carriage saddle and then have to Mickey Mouse the tool bit to make the cut, and that chatters because the bit is too far from the tool holder to be rigid enough, and on and on, with the lament of “Why in blue blazes didn’t I just go ahead and spend another $150 and get that 16” lathe? I had the money!” The reason why I didn’t get the 16” lathe, though, is because I would immediately need an 18” lathe. Besides, it gives me something to buy later on. Oh, my! That Rhinoceros Brand 24” lathe from India I was looking at in the ENCO online catalog sure looks nice, and I can afford it, too, if I sell my 13”. But where am I going to put it? I’ll have to build a new lathe house! You know what, though, I was looking at that Elephant Brand 40" lathe with a catwalk for the operator so he can see the tool bit without having to get a ladder, I can afford it, too, and because I never know when I'll need to chuck up a 55-gallon barrel and since I’m building a new house for the lathe anyway I’ll just build it a bit bigger and - - - .

No, I’ll just stick to my 13”. The largest work I intend to do is on real long barreled muzzle loaders up around 8-guage shotgun size and the 13x60 will work quite nicely for the operations I will be doing. Before you spend money, spend several days, weeks, or whatever, carefully thinking about what the largest work will be that you will do. BE PRACTICAL, AND THEN GET THE NEXT SIZE BIGGER SWING AND BED LENGTH LATHE, AS BIG AS YOU CAN MANAGE!

I recently bought a replacement lathe for one I wore out after around 40 years of owning it, I had a 1940 Sears Atlas 13-inch swing with 24-inches of usable bed and replaced it with a Taiwanese Jet 13x60 belt drive with 40” of usable bed length. The difference in massiveness of the two lathes is as different as night and day, the new one weighs 750 pounds and the old one weighs 250!

One recommendation I make is to buy a belt drive lathe instead of a gear drive. Sure, belts wear out and they are a bitch to replace because you have to take the headstock apart to get the chuck shaft out unless you buy a segmented or link belt, which works great. Belts give more latitude in speed control, they can slip very forgivingly at low speed when doing cuts on very fragile items that would twist in two or otherwise break if the tool bit hangs up. I do plenty of work like that so it justifies the belt drive. A gear drive would be nice if all you do are heavy production cuts where belt slippage would become a problem. So, because they make linkable V-belts that make replacing the belt a simple quick deal, I recommend belt drive lathes because of the greatly increased latitude of speed and torque control you otherwise wouldn’t have with a gear drive machine. The main thing I use controlled belt slippage for is tapping threads with small taps that snap off very easily.

A final modification I made is that I put an extra motor on my lathe. It came with a 2-HP 240-volt single phase motor, which is perfect for peeling off iron in 0.50” deep cuts to remove metal quickly. But most of what I do is thread cutting and other small fine work where the big motor is not suitable since it doesn’t allow precise starting and stopping points for feathering of thread groove ends. I left the big motor where it is and installed a small shunt-wound ¾ HP 90-volt DC motor up on top so that it can use the same belt as the big motor by cutting a slot for the belt to fit through in the pulley box lid. I use a variable voltage reversible motor speed control unit that gives a precise dialed-in speed within the limits of the motor. The motor has as much torque at 1 RPM as it does at 3600 RPM, making thread cutting very precise since at such a low speed the end of the cut can be controlled quite closely. I use the same model motor and speed control on my milling machine as well, making things SO much easier to operate. On my milling machine, the first time I used it I drove it with a ½” electric drill motor without speed control to cut a keyway into a shaft for the electric motor I was installing on it, man, what a difference between having no control and full control of speed! Same with the lathe.

[PatMarlin]

Great tips... :drinks:

[MtGun44]

I'm getting my "new" Sheldon soon and the concept of a small aux DC motor
with a variable speed control sounds fantastic. My old 11" short bed South
Bend has taught me a lot, but it is time to move on.

Bill

[Bret4207]

Good advice. I've been abusing an ancient Atlas 6" lathe I inherited from my Dad. I'm currently trying to be patient waiting on an very old man to decide if he wants to sell me a lathe and mill at a price I can swing. These long term barganing deals are nuts!

[PatMarlin]

Good advice. I've been abusing an ancient Atlas 6" lathe I inherited from my Dad. I'm currently trying to be patient waiting on an very old man to decide if he wants to sell me a lathe and mill at a price I can swing. These long term barganing deals are nuts!

Good luck on that one Bret. I've been involved with a few of those old guy deals, and have found if they don't want to sell now, chances are they never will. They just can't let go.. but can you blame them?

[454PB]

While I agree with everything Linstrum said, I have to say that ANY lathe is better than no lathe. I have a Grizzly 3-in-1 and it definately has it's limitations. After years of having access to large well equiped machine shop, I'm happy to be able to do the most basic jobs with it. It's surprising what can be done with a little "have to" and imagination.

[PatMarlin]

Ditto on that one,

I've got a cheapo Harbor Freight 3 in 1 I bought on sale for $350 and it's done a lot of tasks I would have had a harder time at.

It's teaching me how to use a lathe, slowly.. :mrgreen:

I'm a firm believer in "if you buy it, yee shall learn". That's how I learned to fabricate and weld anyway.

[quasi]

one good thing about a belt drive lathe is they are usually quieter than a gear head. If you have room, 2 lathes are better than one lathe, just as any lathe is better than no lathe.

[jlchucker]

I recommend a Jones & Lamson 1336 TNC D Chucker with an updated NC control. That should be big enough for anything short of a naval gun, and being a CNC machine, it would provide anyone with the ability to do NC programming with 21st century capability. These can be found here and there on the internet. Too bad the company went out of business--like many other American machine tool producers. :(:Fire::roll:

[Southern Son]

I have really got to get a lathe. But first I have to get a shed. Getting cheap accomodation as part of my job is great, but it is cheap, with little storage, no real garage (just a car port) and NO BLOODY SHED. I am looking into a shipping container. I can have one put into the back yard and when I leave, I can sell it or take it with me. The only problem with the shipping container is the size. I have a good bench to work on, but fitting a lathe into the container with the bench and other stuff will be a hassel.

[Lumpie]

I have really got to get a lathe. But first I have to get a shed. Getting cheap accomodation as part of my job is great, but it is cheap, with little storage, no real garage (just a car port) and NO BLOODY SHED. I am looking into a shipping container. I can have one put into the back yard and when I leave, I can sell it or take it with me. The only problem with the shipping container is the size. I have a good bench to work on, but fitting a lathe into the container with the bench and other stuff will be a hassel.On this subject, I am not a guru. But I have been a machinist most of my life. I have worked on most of the brands of lathes. The very first thing I would say is stay away from CNC. Its like having a neighbor that works a Wal-Mart cast, and load for you.Learn the craft the oldtime method. No Carbide! Use carbaloy, high speed tool steel. Learn to cut threads on junk first. In todays world, there are a lot of shops going belly up. These places will sell good machines at a fraction of what they cost. I have worked in a large Power plant for 37 years, of which I have been the foreman of the Turbin crew, as well as the Machine shop, for 25 years.
I have worked on lathes that you could turn a 96" od. Part. Just any lathe will allow you to cut your teeth. When you get to the point that you realize you need something else,then you will know what it is.Carl

[Lumpie]

On this subject, I am not a guru. But I have been a machinist most of my life. I have worked on most of the brands of lathes. The very first thing I would say is stay away from CNC. Its like having a neighbor that works a Wal-Mart cast, and load for you.Learn the craft the oldtime method. No Carbide! Use carbaloy, high speed tool steel. Learn to cut threads on junk first. In todays world, there are a lot of shops going belly up. These places will sell good machines at a fraction of what they cost. I have worked in a large Power plant for 37 years, of which I have been the foreman of the Turbin crew, as well as the Machine shop, for 25 years.
I have worked on lathes that you could turn a 96" od. Part. Just any lathe will allow you to cut your teeth. When you get to the point that you realize you need something else,then you will know what it is.CarlI just thought I would add something. Food for thought. I have a friend that I shoot BPCR with. He has about $800.00 worth of dies to load 45/70,45/90,45/100 2.6, and 45/120, and did not know that he could load them all with one set of dies! However he can play the hell out of video games. Carl

[PatMarlin]

I have really got to get a lathe. But first I have to get a shed. Getting cheap accomodation as part of my job is great, but it is cheap, with little storage, no real garage (just a car port) and NO BLOODY SHED. I am looking into a shipping container. I can have one put into the back yard and when I leave, I can sell it or take it with me. The only problem with the shipping container is the size. I have a good bench to work on, but fitting a lathe into the container with the bench and other stuff will be a hassel.

You can make it work!

Below are pics of my shop trailer. It's a Ryder van body, 8'x24' that I made into a triple axle gooseneck. The 3in1 is on the end of the bench at the right. There's room in the back for a decent lathe up against the wall to the right. I have a 4' metal brake there.

I've got a 8x18' double axle box gooseneck also.

The one I'm working on now is a 12' trailer that I'm turning into a light mobile shop. Please excuse the mess. I'm cleaning up and organizing.

I left a 35x40' shop in the big city, so I had to build these for this property cause there was no shop here. It works great.

[Southern Son]

Lumpie,
I have no intentions of ever buying anything that is CNC. I would have no idea of how to use it, and most CNC stuff here in Oz is so expensive, I would never be able to afford it. As to shops sellong off their gear, I am in a mine town in western Queensland, the mines have the only lathes in the area, and I don't think that BHP/Mitsubishi Heavy Industries will be going out of buisness any time soon. I do agree with the idea of getting a lathe and practicing. I have been grabbing any steel/brass/bronze or whatever so that when I get one, I will be able to practice making cuts, etc. without wasting good steel. And I know what you mean about video game types, I have them claiming that playing computer games makes them better car drivers?????????????????

PatMarlin,
Mate, that is the most flash trailer set up I have ever seen. Looking at the pictures has given me some ideas on space saving. And what mess are you talking about? I have just moved into this house I am in and I am typing this whilst sitting on a chair in my new reloading room. There are so many boxes, I can't even lean back on the chair without knoking something over. I wish that this room was as messy as your trailer.

[HTRN]

BUY AS LARGE OF A LATHE AS IS PRACTICAL!
Uhm.. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/HTRN/Machine%20Shop/biglathe.jpg) :mrgreen:
(4 foot x 30 foot Leblond - asking price at the time was $8000)


I would have no idea of how to use it, and most CNC stuff here in Oz is so expensive, I would never be able to afford it.

I can tell you that after fooling around with Gcode for a couple hours, you'll never want to touch another manual machine again. For one thing, you can do so much more with much simpler fixturing. Take it from somebody who does it for a living.

And oh, CNC is about to get cheaper at the entry level.. (http://www.siegind.com/cnc_machine.pdf)


HTRN

[PatMarlin]

How bout' this one for a good entry level lathe?:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/11-x-26-Bench-Lathe-w-Gearbox/G9972Z

[johnly]

A friend of mine has a "standard" size ENCO lathe and compared to the Hardinge and Leblond lathes I use, the ENCO is a ***. Life is too short to endure the frustration of using inferior tools.

Speaking of large lathes, I recently purchased a LeBlond 24" x 84" with a variable speed drive, 10 HP motor, 3 chucks, steady rest, and an Aloris tool post with 6 tool carriers. Need to upgrade my RPC in the shop, to handle this big boy.

John

[kirb]

I have a 14" Enco lathe and old atlas 12" lathe and an Enco mill and a Smithy 3in1, none of them high dollar but I have learned a lot using them taken a couple of classes at the Univ. and have made some tooling and projects I am proud of. I have to go slow keep my tools sharp and have fun. I was in bullberry custom TC and encore barrels, shop and there was and Enco Lathe about like mine only a little older. The machines at the Univ. were big heavy top quality easy to use and helpful to learn made quality parts. I bought what I could afford might upgrade at some point in time but I love what I have and it is better for me than building a new shop for bigger equipment or still saving money for top of the line.

Kirb

[David2011]

I bought a 13" lathe and a full sized Taiwanese copy of a Bridgeport mill from a friend almost 2 years ago. They're still in his garage due to his health and my displacement after Katrina but that will change at the end of April when I move into the house I'm buying which has a 25x30 workshop. The hitch is that I have to get the milling machine out of his garage and onto a trailer to move it 200 miles. I don't see how I can get a fork lift into the garage but it only has to be moved about 10 feet to be out of the garage. I expect that I can move the lathe with a 2000 lb capacity engine hoist but the mill is a problem. Suggestions, anyone?

David

[TCLouis]

Urban Assault Course and they are something else.

They are certainly big enough to have a lathe in them, and several other tools.

Cheap delivered to ones site too, at least that is true here in middle Tennessee. Amazing that china is willing to dump them here rather than shipping them back empty.

They do require specialized equipment to Haul them Self contained and roomy, with many possibilities for uses. Torch, welder and ideas and one could build most anything and they are designed to be stacked 12 high, FULLY loaded.

[floodgate]

To those wih the ENCO, Atlas, Smithy, etc. lathes and mills - once you have mastered those, you'll be REALLY prepared to get the benefit of a quality tool once you get your hands on one; the time you spend now is NOT wasted, nor are the $$$. Pat has the right approach to a shop, too!

David: A friend had the same problem getting a massive Cincinnati mill out of my dirt-floor garage and onto his trailer. We laid a "plank road" of 2" x 8" fir out the door into the open, jacked up the base one side at a time and inserted three or four 4' lengths of 1-1/2" pipe under it, with a couple of extras to lay under as the piece moved, and with RR bars and a come-along, got it moved out and up a doubled-plank ramp onto the trailer. The last stage would be even easier with a fork lift, once out in the open. The whole job, including planning and preparation (we already had the pipe from a prior move), took maybe an hour and a half - DON'T RUSH IT!

Floodgate

[kirb]

David 2011,

I got my mill tipped enough to get some 1" pipe under it 5 pieces had my son help I pushed on the mill he would move the pipe back to the front when it came out the back moved it about 40 feet never broke a sweat. I was also on level cement.

Kirb

[PatMarlin]

I bought a 13" lathe and a full sized Taiwanese copy of a Bridgeport mill from a friend almost 2 years ago. They're still in his garage due to his health and my displacement after Katrina but that will change at the end of April when I move into the house I'm buying which has a 25x30 workshop. The hitch is that I have to get the milling machine out of his garage and onto a trailer to move it 200 miles. I don't see how I can get a fork lift into the garage but it only has to be moved about 10 feet to be out of the garage. I expect that I can move the lathe with a 2000 lb capacity engine hoist but the mill is a problem. Suggestions, anyone?

David

I move a lot of heavy stuff like that by jacking or hoisting an end or one of 4 ends and setting it back down on a dolly. Sometimes one dolly for each corner, the roll it out.

I've rolled stuff on pipes too.

[cbrick]

PatMarlin, very nice shop trailer. That's very much like my trailer/shop. When I bought it about 10 years ago I thought a 22 foot trailer would be plenty . . . Oh well, live and learn I guess. It does teach a guy to be a master of using space. It works quite well for me but it is pretty much a one man shop, very crowded with two people in there, no lathe yet either.

Rick

[grumpy one]

I bought a 13" lathe and a full sized Taiwanese copy of a Bridgeport mill from a friend almost 2 years ago. They're still in his garage due to his health and my displacement after Katrina but that will change at the end of April when I move into the house I'm buying which has a 25x30 workshop. The hitch is that I have to get the milling machine out of his garage and onto a trailer to move it 200 miles. I don't see how I can get a fork lift into the garage but it only has to be moved about 10 feet to be out of the garage. I expect that I can move the lathe with a 2000 lb capacity engine hoist but the mill is a problem. Suggestions, anyone?

David

I bought a very-used BeaverPal mill a few years ago - a sort of oversized English version of the Bridgeport. Getting it home was expensive because it was in a guy's yard and had to be lifted over a six foot trellis on a twenty-five foot boom, then delivered down my driveway which has a 30% slope. At that point the delivery guys went away and left me on my own with more than a ton of mill in the garage doorway, both too high and too wide to go into the workshop, and without much headroom either. It wasn't very difficult to move it from there really. I took the table off and lowered the head so it would go through the doorway, put some bars under it for rollers, and levered it along, re-laying rollers all the time to get it to move in the right direction. It would have been quite a bit quicker with two people of course: lifting the machine base with a six foot bar and piling weights on it to hold it up while I slipped a roller into position is kind of tricky on your own, and the corridor down the workshop past the lathe was a pretty tight fit even with the table off. Then putting it into a corner of the shop with minimum clearance turned out to be tough as well, because there was no crowbar room around it.

My point here is, all you need is a couple of crowbars, some packing to put under them, and a bunch of nearly-30"long, inch and a quarter bars to use as rollers. Make sure all your rollers are exactly the same diameter (don't ask me how I know that). I also found a serious machine-moving crowbar, with S-bend on the end, was pretty much essential for getting the machine up onto the rollers, and then down off them.

[PatMarlin]

PatMarlin, very nice shop trailer. That's very much like my trailer/shop. When I bought it about 10 years ago I thought a 22 foot trailer would be plenty . . . Oh well, live and learn I guess. It does teach a guy to be a master of using space. It works quite well for me but it is pretty much a one man shop, very crowded with two people in there, no lathe yet either.

Rick

Thanks Rick.

It is handy, but not big enough for 2 people- well depending on what you're doing.
Even when I finish my shop building I think I'm still going to keep all the tools on it. I did move out my metal breaks cause I needed to bend stuff to big for in there.

The other good thing is if there was a forest fire, I can hook up and pull out...
:drinks:

[PatMarlin]

One thing that is really slick...

I noticed a large chain supermarket had several pallets of metal store shelving out back that they had replaced with a different style.

I asked if I could have some, and they said sure so I took to large pallets full. They are about 4' x 2'. What I've done is used them for shelves by screwing 2x4's on the ends between each row as legs. Go's real fast and makes nice strong shelving.

[Linstrum]

David2011, the way Floodgate and others mentioned using rollers made out of pipes and multiple dollies is how I've moved my U.S. Burk Millrite copy of a Bridgeport milling machine around, works fine. I have skidded heavy machinery around outside without rollers by pulling them with a come-along or using my little Honda station wagon with automatic transmission. For skidding stuff it can't have a bottom that will dig in, otherwise it will plow into the ground and be a good anchor! For machines like that I put a piece of old plywood or some planks underneath by jacking it up and then sliding the wood under. You'll get it done if you put some thought into it first, after all, those of us who cast boolits can do anything! Good luck!

[Swagerman]

I bought a 13" lathe and a full sized Taiwanese copy of a Bridgeport mill from a friend almost 2 years ago. They're still in his garage due to his health and my displacement after Katrina but that will change at the end of April when I move into the house I'm buying which has a 25x30 workshop. The hitch is that I have to get the milling machine out of his garage and onto a trailer to move it 200 miles. I don't see how I can get a fork lift into the garage but it only has to be moved about 10 feet to be out of the garage. I expect that I can move the lathe with a 2000 lb capacity engine hoist but the mill is a problem. Suggestions, anyone?

David


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Couldn't you get one of those auto transporters that can load a car on their flat bed. They have a winch that can pull the lathe out of the garage.

Jim

[mstarling]

Many years ago my Dad bought a 6" Atlas from a bicycle shop closeout. It was given to me and I used it for a long, long time. Finally bought a 13x40 Jet gear head lathe and a Jet standard sized turret mill at the same time. I put a Bison 6 Jaw set true on the lathe.

These are not great tools, but they are good tools and are a joy to use.

In moving them I used a large engine hoist. I but the bed of the lathe as low as it would go and folded the head of the mill down to lower the center of gravity. I lifted the mill on its eye-bolt and put three foot sections of 1" pipe under it and rolled where I needed it to go. I picked up the lathe bed using the center fixture eye-bolt arrangement that was shipped with it. Is light in comparison to the mill. Was easy to position over the stand.

Albrecht chucks and Narex boring/facing heads are sometimes available on e-Bay. They are wonderful!

BTW: I still use the little Atlas for small things. Is still a good tool.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

There are "cities" of containers in the greater new York area, that go on for miles, and I suppose in every other port city in the US. It's scary, to see the results of the inbalance of trade our polititians and greedy corporate leaders have thrust upon us. Everything seems to be "hecho en China" (another one of my pet peeves) :x
Morgan

[EDG]

I bought a 13" lathe and a full sized Taiwanese copy of a Bridgeport mill from a friend almost 2 years ago. They're still in his garage due to his health and my displacement after Katrina but that will change at the end of April when I move into the house I'm buying which has a 25x30 workshop. The hitch is that I have to get the milling machine out of his garage and onto a trailer to move it 200 miles. I don't see how I can get a fork lift into the garage but it only has to be moved about 10 feet to be out of the garage. I expect that I can move the lathe with a 2000 lb capacity engine hoist but the mill is a problem. Suggestions, anyone?

David


Probably too late to help you but 4 or 5 guys can push a Bridgeport if you have it on anthing slick like a sheet of oily plywood.