Lee Breech Lock Challenger gave up

[daengmei]

141049
I bought this used a couple years ago and it seemed ok. I needed to use a small base die for .308 and after about 20 resized, I heard a crack. Turned out to be the main toggle lever that the handle mounts into. Resizing with a small base did seem to put a lot of pressure on the entire press, and yes I lubed every case. Now I get to try out a new RCBS explorer that I've had for almost a year. Never had room to put up two at a time.

[huntingsgr8]

Very interested, I'm looking into choices for my first press.

[13Echo]

The challenger is a decent press but is really light to medium duty. The heavy duty from Lee is the Classic Cast. RCBS, Redding, Hornaday and others also make presses suitable for heavy duty resizing. The RCBS Reloader Special press in the Explorer kit looks like it should do the job. Lee can provide a new set of links to get the press working again. If you want to preserve the Breech Lock the Classic Cast press can be had with that option.

Jerry Liles

[lightload]

Will you ask Lee for warranty support?

[Hannibal]

Had the same thing happen. Took photos, e-mailed Lee customer service with an explanation, had new parts in my hand 4 days later.
Probably should have not happened, but they did replace what was broken. Can't complain about the service I received, for sure.

[daengmei]

I'll see what they do. Meanwhile I have set the RCBS and like it so much better. The leverage is noticeably easier. I was resizing once fired military 7.62x51 that was I believe used in a SAW. The PPU cases I picked up at the range were not as hard to resize. I know I said .308 initially and there is a difference, just wasn't being so particular

[jmort]

Is that the newer steel linkage? The newer steel linkage is far stronger.

[troyboy]

Looks like the new linkage.

[ohland]

Looks like the new linkage.

http://leeprecision.com/bl-challenger-toggle.html
http://leeprecision.com/images/P/p-2553.jpg

What the OP showed up top appears to be two seperate toggle link halves. Looking at the picture, the snapped off chunks are discrete. The new link is $5 straight from Lee. The new toggle appears to be one piece, the old toggle seems to be two.

[Garyshome]

rcbs +1

I use my Lee for light duty stuff & the RCBS for grunt work....and all of that to keep my Dillon clean.

[EDG]

If Lee would life cycle test his presses he would find these issues before his customers find it.
If not life cycle testing then a good engineer can run finite element analysis (FEA) to determine the stress levels.
I suspect that Lee might be too cheap to buy a seat of FEA software.
Those 2 methods are how it is done in the real world. You can also ask Boeing how they designed the wing spars for the B-52.

[ohland]

If Lee would life cycle test his presses he would find these issues before his customers find it.


Congrats, you are all Beta testers for Lee products... In the old days of manufacturing, they were (at times) a little generous with metal because they weren't able to precisely calculate the strains. The 70s were IMHO, the learning pangs of a great ideal, but the wrong models... Even today FEA software hasn't fixed the human tendency to overlook things...

[r1kk1]

I worked with an anesthesiologist who bought some military 308 brass for a rifle he had built for matches. He broke the linkage sizing brass with his Challenger. He brought me brass, dies, rifle and the press over to me. At the time I only had three single stage presses and told him to choose which one to operate - a CH4D Champion, a Redding Ultramag or the Forster COAX. I pulled his full length sizer apart and cleaned it. I used Imperial sizing lube for some cases and Unique for others. I sized some with the expander left in and others I took it out. He bought a 1k pieces of brass that were fired in a very generous chamber. You could feel considerable resistance sizing the brass. It was an "elephant" of a problem.

How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

I sized that brass a little at a time, rotating the shell in the case holder and sizing again and repeat. When that was done, the sized case chambered in the rifle. This worked with all three presses. My recommendation to him since we had about 800 cases to go was:

1. Get Lee to replace the linkage with steel type.
2. Buy another press if he wants to use it for this task.
3. Decap and buy a swager. I would use a Lee decapper and a Dillon swaging tool.
4. Return the brass! Headache goes away!

take care

r1kk1

[Walter Laich]

I worked with an anesthesiologist who bought some military 308 brass for a rifle he had built for matches. He broke the linkage sizing brass with his Challenger. He brought me brass, dies, rifle and the press over to me. At the time I only had three single stage presses and told him to choose which one to operate - a CH4D Champion, a Redding Ultramag or the Forster COAX. I pulled his full length sizer apart and cleaned it. I used Imperial sizing lube for some cases and Unique for others. I sized some with the expander left in and others I took it out. He bought a 1k pieces of brass that were fired in a very generous chamber. You could feel considerable resistance sizing the brass. It was an "elephant" of a problem.

How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

I sized that brass a little at a time, rotating the shell in the case holder and sizing again and repeat. When that was done, the sized case chambered in the rifle. This worked with all three presses. My recommendation to him since we had about 800 cases to go was:

1. Get Lee to replace the linkage with steel type.
2. Buy another press if he wants to use it for this task.
3. Decap and buy a swager. I would use a Lee decapper and a Dillon swaging tool.
4. Return the brass! Headache goes away!

take care

r1kk1

don't leave us hanging, what did he do about your suggestions?

[Casting_40S&W]

Installing the press lever incorrectly may have caused this failure. The lever must pass through the lever clamp and engage on both sides of the semi-circular cut of the press toggles (gold color part). If it does not pass through both semi-circular cuts, and you load up the linkage, it may cause this to happen. After a short phone call, I had my contact at Lee explain this to me.

Drop Lee a email with the picture of the damaged part, and they will make right on it. They have a good warranty.

[jmorris]

I suspect that Lee might be too cheap to buy a seat of FEA software.
Those 2 methods are how it is done in the real world. You can also ask Boeing how they designed the wing spars for the B-52.

I suspect you can get a Lee press for less than the cost of a Boeing T shirt.

When you destroy said shirt, your out of luck.

If the op emails Lee a photo of his broken parts, new ones will be sent to him for free.

[Tackleberry41]

I had one of the older challenger presses, looks like the newer ones are built different. After I guess 20 yrs it broke the linkage. Already had the heavier cast press so replaced it with a turret press. I wouldn't try to use the small base dies in the turret press, there is more force required with those dies. I dont really use the turret for sizing anything but pistols, or neck sizing.

Pretty sure at the price difference that if 20yrs from now the turret press breaks, I would have gotten my moneys worth.

[EDG]

If you take that approach to design many companies would be sued out of business.
Hip stem implants used for replacing arthritic hip joints are required to be tested for the equivalent of 15 years of walking.
That is 10 million load cycles. As a result you do not have to take a photo of your broken hip stem and ask for a replacement.
There is really no excuse for waiting for the customer to break something so you can replace it. That is crummy business.


I suspect you can get a Lee press for less than the cost of a Boeing T shirt.

When you destroy said shirt, your out of luck.

If the op emails Lee a photo of his broken parts, new ones will be sent to him for free.

[Hannibal]

I have no particular love for Lee products. Nor do I harbor any particular distain for them. I have several Lee products, and I bought them because of the price. Because of that price, I did not expect it to be comparable to products at the other end of the price spectrum. However, I have found that, by and large, I can manage just fine with Lee products with just a dab of patience and perhaps a bit of tinkering, now and again.
No one is going to be maimed or killed as a result of a linkage arm cracking on a press, in and of itself. Misuse of any product can lead to any number of unintended and possibly devastating outcomes.
If Lee products were tested to the standards that have been suggested, I'm sure the quality could be improved. And the price as well.
It is the same as with most things. If you want high quality, you're going to have to pay for it, one way or another.

[MT Chambers]

The press is made that way on purpose, it will break before you shove the case too far into the die and it becomes stuck. (see also "ziptrim" and Zipsize where trimming and sizing is done with the pull of a string).

[lightload]

It's always a good idea to match a press with its job task. Few of us would trade our Rockchucker for a Lee press, but some of us would buy a Lee press to use in addition to our main choice.

[dudel]

It's always a good idea to match a press with its job task. Few of us would trade our Rockchucker for a Lee press, but some of us would buy a Lee press to use in addition to our main choice.

Took that approach as well. Got a little Lee C press and Lee universal deprimer solely for depriming and keeping the Rockchucker and Dillon cleaner. It struggles a bit on heavily crimped cases, the alignment isn't the best, there's a lot of play in the ram and the arm. It's a sacrificial press. If it breaks or wears out, I won't be heartbroken or surprised. I probably won't call Lee; but likely pick up another. Might even have enough grunt for push through sizing with Lee sizers.

It's low quality; but it's also low price. No surprises and it meets expectations. Everyone is happy.

[jmorris]

If you take that approach to design many companies would be sued out of business.
Hip stem implants used for replacing arthritic hip joints are required to be tested for the equivalent of 15 years of walking.
That is 10 million load cycles. As a result you do not have to take a photo of your broken hip stem and ask for a replacement.
There is really no excuse for waiting for the customer to break something so you can replace it. That is crummy business.


Again, we are talking about a manufacturer that provides the least expensive reloading equipment on the market. Not one that provides parts to NASA or surgeons.

Might as well complain that a gas station hot dog doesn't taste as good as a porter house at a 5 star restaurant.

[Tackleberry41]

Took that approach as well. Got a little Lee C press and Lee universal deprimer solely for depriming and keeping the Rockchucker and Dillon cleaner. It struggles a bit on heavily crimped cases, the alignment isn't the best, there's a lot of play in the ram and the arm. It's a sacrificial press. If it breaks or wears out, I won't be heartbroken or surprised. I probably won't call Lee; but likely pick up another. Might even have enough grunt for push through sizing with Lee sizers.

It's low quality; but it's also low price. No surprises and it meets expectations. Everyone is happy.

Those little c style presses do have their uses. I have one screwed to a chunk of wood, some vice grips clamps it to any table. I wouldn't even try to full length size a 223 in it, but it works very well for priming or seating/crimping bullets or size pistol cases. The open design is easier to work with. And at $25 not something your to upset about if it does break.

[HATCH]

you can order them from titan reloading for $3 each.
Cost with shipping for two of them is around $12

I know because I had to buy one so I bought a spare.

[daengmei]

The press is made that way on purpose, it will break before you shove the case too far into the die and it becomes stuck. (see also "ziptrim" and Zipsize where trimming and sizing is done with the pull of a string).

MT I was able to remove the casing by slightly tapping on what was left of the linkage. Sounds right to me.


Also, I did think along the process that there was just too much pressure required. I did partial resize and turn several times on some of them. I should have stopped, but now that's an afterthought.

[r1kk1]

don't leave us hanging, what did he do about your suggestions?

He returned the brass. I believe he bought a COAX. Last I heard he was ordering stuff to upgrade the linkage.

Funny thing is Richard in his book said the little Reloader C can size the largest magnum cases. I take his information with a grain of salt. I can tell you I have never seen a broke Challenger frame just the older linkage, this is the first I saw with the steel linkage.

Take care

r1kk1

[troyboy]

I have resized 300 Weatherby ,243,223 and 308 with my Lee C press. Obviously not the proper tool for the job,but proves it can be done.

[robg]

I use a wamadet press for most stuff all steel but a lee c frame for bullet sizing and fcd

[Legion489]

Well Lee presses are not high quality and you get what you pay for. I bought a new Lee LoadMaster (it's a load of SOMETHING alright!!) and set it up. After three days of tinkering, rebuilding, stripping and more tinkering i had a total of 50 rounds of .45 ACP ammo that didn't have upside down primers (extremely common for the LM I was told), sideways primers (ditto), crushed case, etc., etc., etc. Finally sent it back to Lee for a replacement/refund. Lee sent it back with a nice letter that it was warped from improper heat treating from the factory, but that did NOT mean they would repair or replace it! Sorry, the 2 year warranty and love it or send it back was intended as a joke, didn't I realize that? Soon after that they replace the "Love it or send it back" to if you buy it from the factory or one of their approved sellers, not Scheels/Midway/wholesaler or the like. The last time they returned it to me they included a nice letter saying I had sent it back to them 27 times in two years (24 months) and they refused to repair/replace it, but NOW, out of the goodness of their little hearts, they would repair/replace it if I paid ANOTHER 50% of retail (MSPR the same as a Dillon 550!!), or who knows, they might not, they'd see.

Long story short, after two years of sending it back with broken/jammed parts and getting it back in the exact same shape as sent (called repair dept., talked to dept head, told that was impossible as the guy PERSONALLY checked every press, send it to him personally and he would fix or replace, got it back in same shape, broken parts and jammed) I had spent enough to buy a Dillon, so I did. NEVER regretted THAT! That also ended any problems with primers, crushed cases, needing to rebuild/tinker/broken parts/etc.

Sure some of Lee's stuff is great, I have owned or used nearly all of it, except for the CAST CALSSIC presses, and they seem to run hot and cold on the Lee sites. The Lee LM sites ALL trash the LM, and many of those people admit they like it! Lee does seem to repair/replace the small stuff (I got some obviously trashed moulds straight from Lee that they finally replaced, but were not happy about replacing), but the bigger stuff seems to be "you bought low end junk, you are stupid (Thanks Dick! I knew/figured that after I bought your LM press, I didn't need you to tell me that!) and got what you deserved." I love Lee dies, shell holders, bullet lube (you can buy the same stuff off E-bay MUCH cheaper! Developed for Navy to be sprayed on equipment to keep salt water off, also same as Z-Bart rust proofing), etc., but will never buy another Lee press.

[daengmei]

I'm gonna show my skill/newby mentality at this reloading....A lot of you are saying you're resizing. Full length resizing I thought doesn't always completely resize the case on some cartridges, they may not chamber in a very tight headspace chamber. The small base die I am using does resize the entire length. Is the amount of force needed still the same?
I do know that using the small base die needed by far more force than anything else I've resized.

[jmorris]

I'm gonna show my skill/newby mentality at this reloading....A lot of you are saying you're resizing. Full length resizing I thought doesn't always completely resize the case on some cartridges, they may not chamber in a very tight headspace chamber. The small base die I am using does resize the entire length. Is the amount of force needed still the same? I do know that using the small base die needed by far more force than anything else I've resized.Sizing with any die does not do "full length", part of the case never enters the die at all.That said I do not own any underside dies, if the dies I have will not resize cases to the original dimensions, I return them.If I have a rifle that will not accept ammunition loaded to the correct dimensions I fix or return it. Who knows I (or someone else after I die) may want to fire factory ammunition out of one of them. If it takes special "undersize" ammunition to work that is going to be a problem.