Lee Enfield experts need some info

[richhodg66]

Wife and I were just out and stopped into the shop of a friend of mine who O haven't seen on a while who recently started staying open on Sundays. Left with an Indian Lee Enfield (converted to .308). This is configured like a Jungle Carbine with the short barrel and cone shaped flash hider, but this has the open rear sight, not the peep sight like other Jungle Carbines I have seen. The rifle looks good, has not been bubbaed and the bore is good. The sling isn't original I don't think, but for what I payed, I think I did ok.

What are strength limitations of these .308 converted ones? Seems like I read that .303 pressure leavels are lower and these .308 ones need to be treated carefully. Most of my shooting will be cast plinking loads, obviously, but it would be nice to know especially since I'll most likely hand it off to #1 son eventually.

[richhodg66]

Did some reading of earlier posts, seems this is a 2A or 2A1. I think it's gonna be a fun shooter and no concerns now about .308 ammo now. Hopefully it'll shoot well.

[leebuilder]

Sounds like a Gibbs convertion or a bubba. The no2 and 2a1 actions are quite safe with 7.62×51 or ammo loaded to those specs.

[richhodg66]

Think it's one of those Gibbs conversions, wasn't some ameteur job. Neat looking shooter.

[bouncer50]

Their safe with the 308 ammo as i recall they use a different grade of steel went they build them. On mine the bore slugs out at 306 a little tight, Went they first sold them as surplus the ones i seen the metal was painted black and the wood was oil soak. Ugly but a good deal for a 119.95 each. Yes Gibbs made a lot of carbines out of them because i believe of the bad oil soak stock and painted metal. Hard to sell a ugly rifle. My friend has a early one with a park finish and really nice wood that was the pick of the best. I try to buy it but he would not sell it. If i had it i would not sell it either.

[Artful]

it could be a Golden State, Santa Fe, or Gibbs all 3 did the Jungle Carbine conversions on 2A's in 308

[bouncer50]

it could be a Golden State, Santa Fe, or Gibbs all 3 did the Jungle Carbine conversions on 2A's in 308 Golden State, Santa Fe went out of business in the late 60"s and they were in 303 cal. The 2A"s were build in the later 60s So it most likely a Gibbs made rifle.

[Multigunner]

7.62X51 NATO 144-150gr M80 Ball generates chamber pressures very nearly the same as the maximum allowable pressure for .303 Mk8z long range MG ammunition. Thats in the neighborhood of 48,000 CUP or 50-51,000 PSI.
The 2A is built for that pressure range with a good margin of safety.

Most .308 hunting ammunition is loaded on the mild side but .308 long range match ammunition and 7.61 M118 Long Range Special Ball are loaded to much higher maximum pressures.
When used in NRA sanctioned matches at Bisley No.4 rifles converted to .308 are required to be re-proofed to the higher modern standards for the .308.

At the least I'd expect that use of the higher pressure M118 or Long Range Match ammunition would accellerate wear to the rifle.
Since the sights would be regulated for 150 gr bullets I'd stick with bullets in that range when using factory ammunition. Bullet weights for cast boolit loads can and probably should be in a heavier range.

[Mk42gunner]

I've got a 2A1 from R.F.I. that shoots decently, The only real complaint I have is the throat is very long on it. If I seat boolets to touch the land the OAL is roughly ¼" longer than the rounds I load for my Mauser with the Parker Hale take off barrel. Consequently, I load to fit the shorter chamber and just plink with the 2A1.

I don't remember the chamber being oversized other than the length of the ball seat.

It is a fun rifle to shoot, I wouldn't mind finding one like yours.

Robert

[richhodg66]

The rifle is in good shape, I ran a couple of patches of Ed's Red though it, the bore looks very good. I would expect this rifle to shoot as well as I can shoot open sights with such a short sight radius.

Until I get bored with t or give it to my son, this looks like a good companion for walking around our acreage.

[MtGun44]

AFAIK, the Indian rifles were not converted to .308, but originally built in .308,
and they are slightly different than the .303 rifles, although I forget the exact
details. Seems the mag and feed lips, and perhaps the bolt are slightly different.

However, I never have seen a #5 made from a .308 Indian.

Bill

[docone31]

There are a lot of changes on the Ishapores in 7.62. One is the geometry of the stock. The 7.62 performs flatter than the .303, so the angles and lines are different in that respect. Bedding the barrel is different to an extent.
That is one tough, smooth rifle. Well worth the bucks.

[richhodg66]

The rifle was priced for $259.95, the dealer let me have it for that out the door and threw in a nice two gun hard case to take it home in so I'm pretty happy. He's a good guy, runs a good business and is a concerned citizen who does a lot in the community. I don't ever try to lowball him and he usually gives me a pretty good deal. It helps that I tend to like stuff that doesn't just fly off the racks like ARs and modern auto pistols.

I'm using some Sweets on it now to remove any copper in the bore but the barrel was pretty darn clean and in great shape. Nice and shiny. I think it's gonna be a winner.

Anybody know what kind of stripper clips this would take? I have some standard .303 ones, obviously, I don't think they'll work.

It looks just like this one;

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=486498399

[MtGun44]

Yes, if it is an Ishapore, it was originally the .308 (well, actually 7.62 NATO). No
issues with strength. I looked at my Ishapore and the mag is noticeably different
from the normal .303 mag.

I assume someone is cutting these down and putting on the flash hiders to make
#5 replicas out of long rifles. Is it certain that there were no #5 pattern
rifles made originally in the 7.62 cartridge?

I have seen a Gibbs .45-70 conversion that looked a bit like #5, not sure exactly which
Enfield rifle it was based on. Clearly, that one was NOT a military original
rifle! I don't remember if it had the flash hider or not, but it was nickel
plated, too. :bigsmyl2:

Bill

[Artful]

Golden State, Santa Fe went out of business in the late 60"s and they were in 303 cal. The 2A"s were build in the later 60s So it most likely a Gibbs made rifle.

Technically correct but when Golden State Arms and it's Santa Fe Division went under several of their employees founded Federal Ordnance (Fed Ord), which did much of the same kind of work up thru the 1980's using some of Golden State/Santa Fe parts and was succeeded by Brinkle Trading Company.

http://www.angelfire.com/nh/milarm/fakes.html


No. 5 “Jungle Carbine”

Overall length 39-1/2 inches; 20-1/2 inch barrel with flash hider. Rubber buttplate; short fore-end. An honest No. 5 rifle (or “Jungle Carbine”) has lightening flutes cut in the barrel knox form and extensive milling done to the receiver to lighten it. (Take the handguard off and look for the barrel flutes.) Also, an honest No. 5 will be electro-engraved “No5MKI” on the left side of the receiver and will not have “No. 4” stamped or engraved anywhere on it. In addition, an honest No. 5 will bear the proper manufacturer’s code: “(ROF)F” for Fazakerley or “M47C” for BSA-Shirley. Finally, the barrel band will be only 8 inches in front of the receiver ring--rather than 10-3/4 inches as on a No. 4 rifle.

In the 1950s and 1960s, Golden State Arms Co. of Pasadena, California modified quite a few No. 4 rifles by shortening the barrels, adding flash hiders, and shortening the fore-ends. Some were equipped with Fajen or Bishop sporter stocks, as well. These were called various names, such as “No. 4 Jungle Carbine,” or “Santa Fe Mountain Carbine,” or “Mountain Rifle,” but all have “Golden State Arms” and “Santa Fe” roll-stamped on the barrel. Nice aftermarket conversions, but strictly that.

Currently, Navy Arms is doing the same thing with No. 4 rifles and selling them as “No. 5 Jungle Carbines.” At arm’s length they look genuine, but they have standard No. 4 rifle markings and DO NOT have the lightening flutes on the barrel or the lightening cuts on the receiver. These are strictly fakes--or thinly disguised “replicas.”


No. 6 “Jungle Carbine”

Overall length 39-1/2 inches, with 20-1/2 inch barrel and flash hider; brass buttplate. The Australian No. 6 rifle was officially adopted, but only a couple of hundred prototypes were ever built. These have grooved fore-ends and handguards, and most have receiver- mounted aperture rear sights. All have “XP” serial number prefixes, and the bayonet lug on the flash hider is squared to accept a P1907-type bayonet rather than rounded to accept a No. 4-type bayonet. The handguard is the same length as the fore-end and will be solid for its full length or have an unusual set of backsight protectors on it--sort of like the rear handguard on an SMLE Mk I rifle. Replicas and fakes abound.

Golden State Arms made replicas in the 1950s and 1960s, but these are all marked “Golden State Arms” and “Santa Fe” on the barrel. In the 1970s, Federal Ordnance Company (Fed Ord) made some No. 6 look-alikes built on WWI-vintage Lithgow actions, but these are stamped “Jungle Rifle” on the left side of the receiver.

Navy Arms is currently making look-alikes with no special marking and selling them as “No. 6 Jungle Carbines.” Don’t pay a premium for these! If you see a barrel-mounted tangent sight, the rifle is a fake. If you don’t see lightening flutes on the barrel knox form and lightening cuts in the receiver, the rifle is a fake. If it has a No. 5 flash hider, it’s a fake. If the barrel band is up within a few inches of the flash hider, it’s a fake. (Or a thinly-disguised “replica,” if you must.)
`
No. 7 “Jungle Carbine”

Shortened version of 2A/2A1 rifle, with flash hider installed. Like the 2A Tanker Carbine, this is strictly an aftermarket modification. There never was a carbine version of the Ishapore 2A/2A1 rifle, and there never was any such thing as a “No. 7 Jungle Carbine.”

The Lee-Enfield No. 7 rifle is a .22 caliber training rifle, similar in appearance to a full-size No. 4 rifle, which was made in both Canada and Great Britain in the late 1940s. They are clearly marked as such.

[Adam Helmer]

richhodg66,

What does the metal band say along the forward end of the butt stock? I suspect you have a Jungle Carbine "clone" purpose built in the 1960s in India. I have one that loves the Lyman #311467 175 grain semi-spitzer cast boolit sized .309" and 13.5 grains of Unique. My JC arm is in the vault, but I recall it was a L7A, or some such nomenclature. I also have an Indian built .308 Model 2A which looks like a British Enfield MkIII "clone." Both of these arms were built in India for the .308 cartridge, have 12-round box magazines and shoot cast boolits to the same point of aim and impact with cast or 150 grain jacketed bullets. at 100 yards at the same battle sight setting. My reading of gun information indicates both arms are of Indian manufacture.


I suspect your information on the stock metal will confirm you have an excellent, recent manufacture .308 carbine. I like my JC clone for woodchucks, target work and deer hunting in the big woods.

Adam

[Multigunner]

If you see a barrel-mounted tangent sight, the rifle is a fake
I have seen photos of a No.6 prototype with tangent rear sight. The sight bed was moved as far back as possible so the rear blade was just in front of the receiver ring. The sight bed may have also been shorter.
There were several variations of the basic design, I don't think any went past a field trial stage if they got that far.

A very similar Lithgow short rifle actually rebarreled to 7.62 was built in test quantities. While they passed proof these rifles failed to hold up after firing a few hundred rounds, headspace increasing quickly to dangerous proportions. The flash hider of these were more like that of the FN FAL rifle.
They also used a high capacity magazine resembling the FAL magazines.

[richhodg66]

richhodg66,

What does the metal band say along the forward end of the butt stock? I suspect you have a Jungle Carbine "clone" purpose built in the 1960s in India. I have one that loves the Lyman #311467 175 grain semi-spitzer cast boolit sized .309" and 13.5 grains of Unique. My JC arm is in the vault, but I recall it was a L7A, or some such nomenclature. I also have an Indian built .308 Model 2A which looks like a British Enfield MkIII "clone." Both of these arms were built in India for the .308 cartridge, have 12-round box magazines and shoot cast boolits to the same point of aim and impact with cast or 150 grain jacketed bullets. at 100 yards at the same battle sight setting. My reading of gun information indicates both arms are of Indian manufacture.


I suspect your information on the stock metal will confirm you have an excellent, recent manufacture .308 carbine. I like my JC clone for woodchucks, target work and deer hunting in the big woods.

Adam

I think I have a bunch of those bullets my dad cast up for me years ago, haven't shot many for a while, been more focused on hunting type bullets with flat noses. I think your Unique load and that bullet will be my start point. Thanks very much.

[lancem]

I had one of the Gibbs conversions years ago. The muzzle blast was like WOW, shooting ball ammo. Didn't keep it long, but it was neat.

[richhodg66]

The band on the stock says RIFLE 7.62mm2A1 1967The more I mess with and learn about this rifle, the more I like it.

[303Guy]

That looks like a fun rifle. It doesn't exactly have a long sight radius! That won't matter though.

The barrel on your rifle is nearly twice as long as my bush carbine/pig gun. How does does 14.6 inches sound? :shock: It has a full over-barrel semi-suppressor so it's pretty quite. It's an SMLE MkI that lost most of it's barrel to rust and ham handed bubba'ing. Great little rifle. Initially I set it up with No1 sights with the rear sight right up close to the Knox form and front sight right up to the muzzle. That was a rather nice set up. It will be interesting to hear how yours performs. If yours has a long throat you might consider paper patching. Near full power loads with cast.