Freecheck III GC on 22-55-SP for AR15 ---- suggestion / info please.

[Case Stuffer]

So i have a Colt M4 1:7 (fast ) twist . I have a Bushnell TRS-25 3 moa reddot on it and I am not expecting nail driver accuracy . I purchased a Mold RCB 505796 55gr. ,.224, Spire point mold(22-55-SP), Lee .225 sizer and Lee Universal Expander to flare case mouth .Casting alloy approx. Bhn 15 to 20 ( Saeco 8 to 9 scale when cast). I powder coat, seat Hornady gas checks ( $25 per K on sale) . Using 18 grains. of H 335 powder and CCI SRMP in misc. military brass., 2.110" AOL These function well and short range accuracy off hand are as good as the Hornady 55 grain FMJ or 55 gr. SP.


I have read a lot of threads / posts and it seems to me that a Freechex III and .014 or .0145 aluminium would be the most viable option to cut the cost of GCs to next to nothing and not take that much time.

Update: Now aware of .007 - .011 limits of .224

Edited shank area dim.

GC area of Boolit average .215 .

Thanks in advance





Edit <Added> 6-17-15 RCBS 22-55----------SP with .011 " Alu. gas checks / 18 gr. H 335 / CCI SRMP / 2.110" AOL /
2,128 Avg. FPS . 100% function reliability to date with over 100 rounds fired.

[dragon813gt]

Thickness for FCIII in 22 caliber is recommended to be .008-.011. The tool is set up to cut those thicknesses. If you want to use thicker aluminium let Charlie know when ordering.

[Daveb6332]

I've been using the Freechex III with .009 coiled Al from Yonky with good results. .014 is too thick and I think .010 would be perfect if you can find it.

[Sagebrush7]

Home Depot has Gilbralter .092 rolled aluminum sheet metal also. Works great and take your micrometer with you. Usually comes in the valley flashing rolls, enough to last a lifetime.

[Case Stuffer]

Thanks for the feed back. I have a Freechex III in 22 cal. (.223) ordered and two .400 X .008 X 100' coilf of aluminum on order as well as a Harbor Freight 1 ton. Arbor Press so by end of week should be making GCs.

Still finding some info some what conflicting . Formular for material thickness is finished dia. minus shank dia. divided by two so in theory for a .214 nonimal ...
sized to .225 ....


.225 -.214 = .011 / 2 = .0055 yet many seem to be using .007- .009 .

[Sagebrush7]

Hornady and Gator both use .010 copper. So that would be a good starting point. For some off my customers I use different thickness to compensate for different shank diameters. With some aluminum alloys you will get more spring back than others. You can move up a couple thousandth in thickness to take care of that spring back. For standard 22 checks I use .010 certified aluminum with great success. Trial and error, reloading is great!




Thanks for the feed back. I have a Freechex III in 22 cal. (.224) ordered and two .400 X .008 X 100' coilf of aluminum on order as well as a Harbor Freight 1 ton. Arbor Press so by end of week should be making GCs.

Still finding some info some what conflicting . Formular for material thickness is finished dia. minus shank dia. divided by two so in theory for a .214 nonimal ...
sized to .225 ....


.225 -.214 = .011 / 2 = .0055 yet many seem to be using .007- .009 .

[tjones]

Trial and error, witchcraft and black magic is why it works!

[Case Stuffer]

Or as I use to tell those working under me during my Lead Man, Shop Foreman , Plant Engineer days while working for the man....

If it was easy ,anyone could do it.

or

That's why they call it work and why you get paid for doing it.

I first started reloading in 1966 , had a Class 6 FFL for around a dozen years back 70's - 80's. during which I sold Boolits, reloads , did custom load development , managed a indoor range and managed to shot in around a dozen matches a month.

Time to learn yet another facet of this great hobby / craft.

[Case Stuffer]

Just checked and my Freechex III in 22 cal. plus a few rolls of .008 Alu. are due to be delivered today by USPS It will likely be several or more days before my arbor press is delivered but I will likely jury rig up something on my single stage O Frame pressss to punch out a few just to see how they look and fit. I have close to 3,000 cast ready to powder coat and apply gas checks.

Also have some samples coming in different thicknesses .

[Case Stuffer]

Trial and error phase in progress.

.008 Alum gas checks as well as .009 iones are on the loose side even on Boolits with two coats of power coating which increases shank to .217 Perhaps cast at lower temp. or chnage in alloy would get the dia. up a bit more.

Anyone doing a power coat layer after installing gas checks ? I do not want to size / install gas checks on un coated( unlubed) Boolits as lead and or Alu. will gall in the sizer. Perhaps a sinlgle power coat ,install .010 or .011 thick gas checks and then apply second powder coat. Bootlits may or may not need to be sized with gas checks applied between coats.
Powder coat, apply gas check size , apply second coat and size again?
or
Powder coat , apply gas check, apply second coat then size?

Note:

I only do shake and bake so coating Boolits with bases up is really not an option I wish to persue.
Some have been making and using these home made gas checks for two years or so and I am fairly sure most available options have been tried.

I tried some .011 and they were tighter but still not as tight as the Hornady ones I have been using. I have read that some use super glue to attach lose gas checks so I did this on 100 as a trial run .

FYI I used Freechex III in 49 year old (purchased in 1966) RCBS JR. O frame press and even the .011" tool very little effort. I can form 25 between emptying and if the FC III was designed for use in a reloading press it would be great IMO. I know there is a DIY design here on CS Forum which uses 7/8 " -14 stock( same as standard reloading dies) for the main body

[dragon813gt]

No glue is needed. They should crimp onto the shank during sizing.

[Case Stuffer]

You are correct they should not need glue and they are squeezed down hard against the Boolits during sizing however unlike Hornady and some other gas checks which have the burr on the inside which bites into the Boolits shank the Freechex III's burr is on the outside.

I was well aware of this prior to purchasing the Freechex III and I am not complaining , I am only tryting to get input from other Freechex III owners / users and hopefully from ones who also use these gas checks on Boolits cast in the RCBS 22-55-SP mold as this is the one I have and seems to be one of the most popular ones.


Perhaps some are very lucky and they have zero issues however I have read post of these gas checks coming off in the case (not on Boolite after being pulled) , coming off shortly after leaving the bore,hitting and or sticking to sky screen supports and in some case making extra holes in the target at short ranges.

Some are glueing them on, some are using Lee Rifle Factory Crimp Die to squeeze them to the Boolits, some are using collet type Bullet pullets to squeeze them to their Boolits. I am sure there are a great many who just install ,size and wish them well and have satisfactory results.

Care to share the combination which is working for you?

[dragon813gt]

I have a bunch of Freechex III tools. All of them, including 22 cal, produce checks that stay on after sizing. Most can't be pulled off before sizing. I have a NOE copy of that mold and the checks go on properly.

It doesn't matter what happens to them after the bullet exits the barrel. At that point their job is done. I understand not wanting to damage chronys. But checks aren't required to stay on all the way to target.

[tchepone]

I have several Freechex tools, II, III and had a IV for a while. I have never had problems with gas checks not crimping on. None of my tools produce "a burr on the outside". All it takes is the correct thickness of material for the gas check shank. I use a Star sizer so can't speak to the RCBS, Lyman, Lee or Saeco. I attach the check by finger and push it through the Star die, seating the check, sizing and lubing in one operation.
I have never found it necessary to "glue" on any GC. As dragon813gt said, it doesn't matter what happens to it after it leaves the barrel. (chronograph screens excepted)....G

[JeffinNZ]

Thanks for the feed back. I have a Freechex III in 22 cal. (.223) ordered and two .400 X .008 X 100' coilf of aluminum on order as well as a Harbor Freight 1 ton. Arbor Press so by end of week should be making GCs.

Still finding some info some what conflicting . Formular for material thickness is finished dia. minus shank dia. divided by two so in theory for a .214 nonimal ...
sized to .225 ....


.225 -.214 = .011 / 2 = .0055 yet many seem to be using .007- .009 .

In theory 5-6 thou material would work but as established already the commercial checks are 10 thou. The FC II and III are spec'ed for 8-9 thou material to duplicate commercial. I know this for a fact as Charlie uses my specifications for .22 FC devices.

[Case Stuffer]

The FC II and III are spec'ed for 8-9 thou material to duplicate commercial. I know this for a fact as Charlie uses my specifications for .22 FC devices.


Thank you for the input. I have used close to 1,200 Hornady GC on my Boolits cast with my RCBS 22-55-SP mold using the same alloy,temperature and such and even the Hornady gas checks are not identical at least they do not all fit the same feel wise. Some are very loose, some are a very light press fit and some take some real pressure to seat prior to sizing. I was a Tool & Die Maker for many years and my guess is that Hornady does many of these gas checks from a coiil at a time( per press stroke) as in a pattern similiar to the metal used on cheap air filters to retain the filter media used in heating and air conditioning. Those round holes in the filter metal are where bottle caps were punched out and the metal sheet is infact scrap which a use was found for..

I purchased two coils of .008 prior to receiving my FC III and while these can be made to work they fit a lot looser than I like as in will not stay on unless held in place even long enough to size them. Three coats of powder coating and they barely stay in place without being held before sizing.

Charlie sent me a .0011 sample strip with the FC III and with two powder coats on the Boolits these gas checks fit very similiar to the Hornady ones . Note: He even wrote likely best on the .011 strip.

I know about material differences such as hardness, draw quality , how different form of lubication effect the drawing , how punch / ram speed can have an effect and how very slight manufacturing tolerances of the blank OD shear point, dia. of male cup forming horn, ID of cup forming draw tube all play a role in the finished part.

I have two coils of .011 Alum. ordered and I will make this work even if I have to open up the GC area of the mold ,or make other modifications.

Thanks everyone for your input. Seems like this is a are where one size does not fit all or at least not very well.


Added:

Just found this chart

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?11997-Gas-Checks-vs-Shank-Size&p=148405&viewfull=1#post148405


Received samples from

http://www.coilandfoil.com/usa-postal-orders/

(great vendor to deal with)



and found that .010 thru .012" produce gas checks which fit the same or better that the Hornady ones do. ALso with the 5/8" width it is possible to get 60 plus per foot so each 75' coil should yeidl 4,500 gas checks. I only have 4,550 cast ,double powder coated and waiting on gas checks so I know what I will be doing.


FYI I am using Tri Flow for a lubicant on the Freechex IIIand it seems to be working very well. Just happen one of my favorite general purpose lubes along with CLP Break Free. thus I had it on hand.

Edit : Changed to white lithum grease and it works much better / longer.

[Case Stuffer]

I have now produced and installed just over 3,000 gas checks using my Freechex III and .011" X 5/8" X 75 ' coil material on my Boolits from a RCBS 22-55-Sp two cavity mold and powder coated with High Durability Gloss Clear from Smoke. I find that these are a very good fit on Boolits which have two powder coat on them and initial accuracy test was better than when using Hornady gas checks.

FYI

My load is 18 gr. of H 335 in LC brass ,OAl 2.110" , CCI SRMP .

Added 6-18-15 : 2,128 FPS Avg. / 100% function reiiable in Colt M4

Boolits sized to .225 with Lee push thru. I have only tested to 100 feet.

I really need to open up a longer shooting lane but that is more of a winter time project.

[Case Stuffer]

Now I know I should just let this go as in ignor it but sorry it just bugs me to much.
Snip from my post #12

they are squeezed down hard against the Boolits during sizing however unlike Hornady and some other gas checks which have the burr on the inside which bites into the Boolits shank the Freechex III's burr is on the outside.

I started my apprenticship as a Tool and Die Maker in 1963 at which time Ihad already worked three summers plus X mas and Spring school breaks as a production lath,milling machine, punch press operator. I retired after 40 years of mostly working between 50 and 70 hours per week except for two years spent serving our country.l There is not a single mechanical piece of reloading equipment which we use which I can not design,fabercate and produce including material choice,machining, heat treating. When I stated that there was a burr on the outside of the Freechex III it was not a WAG but a simple fact. Some check makers create cups with burr on inside of the cup same as the Hornady ones are and same as Gator checks based on what I have read.

Snip from post 14


I have several Freechex tools, II, III and had a IV for a while. I have never had problems with gas checks not crimping on. None of my tools produce "a burr on the outside".



Just because one does not notice the burr does not mean it is not there and no matter how minor the burr is it would be better for it to be on the inside rather than the outside. Burr on the inside of the cup means it gets formed into the side of the Boolite, burr on the outside means it just get ironed away during sizing. Yes Freechex III gas checks work very well and yes I was aware of this issue prior to purchase.

[1_Ogre]

I have numerous Freechex makers and I lube them with RCBS case lube. Every 1000 gas checks, I remove the stem, clean it then apply a light coat of the RCBS case lube. It is thick, adhears good, and last a long time. I've literally made hundreds of thousands of g/c's with my dies and they still function flawlessly

[Case Stuffer]

Go to know I am not all alone.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?277172-Learning-curve-GC-s-compared-to-PB-GC-s&p=3241888&viewfull=1#post3241888

Snip:




I bought and use one of Pat Marlins PB check makers .....

When the discs are punched, there is a small burr around the perimeter. When I run the disc to make the cup, I make sure that the burr is facing up, and that allows the check to grab around the perimeter of the boolit when run through the sizer.
Jack

[dragon813gt]

That is a different tool. I won't talk about it because I don't want to get banned.

[BulletFactory]

Why would that get someone banned?

[Case Stuffer]

That is a different tool.


I fully realize that is a different tool. Freechex is made by Charlie and the FC III produces a complete GC with a single stroke , Chechmaker is made by Pat and requires two operations (steps).

The point I have tried to make is that both tools do infact produce a disc with a burr on it . I have a lifetime of experience with ll type of metal ,piercing, blanking , forming dies and it is for all intent and purposes impossible to not have a burr when metal is sheared which is what happens when a disc is blanked (punched ) out. One of the companies I worked for about 50 years ago is a major metal stamping operation. They have numerious viberators with bowls that are approx. 10 feet in dia. which are used to deburr parts which they produce the Tooling for, run (stamp) the parts then deburr prior to delivering to the customers.

Due to the design of the Freechex III the burr ends up on the outside rim of the cup The Checkmaker being two steps lets one choose burr on the inside or on the outside however burr on the inside is logical the choice.


I suggest everyone carry on with the flavor(s) of gas check they prefer . I still have close to 4,000 addational 22 cal Boolits to make GCs for ,install them then seat / size them.


Why would that get someone banned?

Just a WAG on my part but I guess some feel that posting negatives about a product produced or sold by a supporting vendor could land one in hot water.

Just to be clear I have and use the Freechex III and have produced and installed over 4,000 GC with it on RCBS 2255SP Boolits . Now I would not have gone to such trouble if I did not like the results. I was just trying to make a point or two which seems to have been a little difficult to make.



Added: There seems to be a move underway which could put an end to all such firearms related WWW discussions anyway, but a discussin along those lines belongs in a different Forum, correct?

[GoodAlloy]

Case Stuffer is 100% correct. All frechex leave out side burr so thickness or I should say over thickness produces better results. With Pats tool while slower in production gives the option of putting burr on the inside similar to the Hornady/Gator checks. I have both tools and like both they are simply different designs depending on preference of user. Thicker material with burr to inside would be 100% check to shank retention. As long as production quantity was not an issue. Frechex using .011" will stay on most 22 cal shanks to target as well.

[Sagebrush7]

As stated the tools are not the problem. Using the .011 Amerimax aluminum and many others the problem is solved by going to a thicker material to compensate for the spring back on the .22 calibers. I now use a certified half hard .010 aluminum that does not spring back. Charlie increase the size of the FCIII 22 so I good use it. Early models would jamb up. I only use them with .007 Litho and certified .010 that gets as thin as .009. The .338 and .35 checks have the same problems in thickness selection. This is partly caused by the larger shanks on these bullets in relation to the sizing diameter. Ia'm confused and will shut up!




Case Stuffer is 100% correct. All frechex leave out side burr so thickness or I should say over thickness produces better results. With Pats tool while slower in production gives the option of putting burr on the inside similar to the Hornady/Gator checks. I have both tools and like both they are simply different designs depending on preference of user. Thicker material with burr to inside would be 100% check to shank retention. As long as production quantity was not an issue. Frechex using .011" will stay on most 22 cal shanks to target as well.

[Bad Water Bill]

Using a 1-7 twist will result in a disintegrating lead boolit if you push them very fast.

Yes centrifugal force enters into the picture as well and PLEASE do not ask me how I know.:evil: