blow out on 1911

[flyingmonkey35]

Need some advice on this one folks, i was shooting my friends Wilson combat 1911, with cast loads.

it appears that i had a blow out on the brass, this caused the gas to escape out thru the magazine well cracking both grips and destroying the magazine.

i load 1 at a time. and measure each case with lee dipper.

please take a look, as i don' see how this would be a over charge??

i am a bit shook up over this as i have loaded a lot for this hand gun and never had a issue.

I am f fine just cut my nose a little,


140789140790
The weapon appears to be in fine order, should i send this back to Wilson for inspection?

or do a deep cleaning? as i plan to do anyway.

i consider my skill level to be gun Mechanic (i can disable down to factory levels but don't have the tools to check for micro fractures on the frame)

if you guys think this is just a blow out on the case (say a glock bulge etc.) i would be good to just do a deep dive. but if its a something else.....

let me know thoughts and op.

Thank you all

[jakharath]

1911's are pretty tough. Chances are it's okay. How bad was the magazine hit?

[dubber123]

Pay attention when seating boolits. I have a particular brand of brass that seats WAY too easy with .452" boolits, when no others do. I can easily push them deeper in the case with hand pressure. If you assembled one, and it got stuffed to the bottom of the case during feeding, well.. You haven't had good luck with .45 cals ;)

[flounderman]

How many times had that case been loaded? If the powder hung up in the measure and dropped with the next load you could have overcharged it. I use a loading block with rifle cases, but not with a pistol. I have the cases ready to drop the powder into and charge one, inspect the depth and then seat a bullet. If you are using a progressive, you can have powder hang up in the measure and drop with the next charge. could have been a case separation from being bulged and sized too many times.

[flyingmonkey35]

no i have not had luck with .45 cals at all.

1 im going to switch to a large 230 grain round nose bullet. (i have had bad luck, with swc) espcialy in autos.

do you think the bullet was seated to deep?

i forgot to put load data in.

5 grns Tight Group (lee SWC cast ) 211 grains (powder coated)
CCI LP - primer

[flyingmonkey35]

no i have not had luck with .45 cals at all.

1 im going to switch to a large 230 grain round nose bullet. (i have had bad luck, with swc) espcialy in autos.

do you think the bullet was seated to deep?

i forgot to put load data in.

5 grns Tight Group (lee SWC cast ) 211 grains (powder coated)
CCI LP - primer


it appears that the (magazine follower) was bent in the magazine causing the magazine to bulge slightly i had to tap it out,

a different magazine slide in and locks with no issues.

[35remington]

I'm just waiting for those that don't have the faintest idea of how the pistol works claim it "fired out of battery."

The 1911 cannot do so, even if all the safeties and disconnectors somehow fail.

The cause is either a too deeply seated bullet or a double charge.

[flyingmonkey35]

35 Remington, oh the 1911 wont fire out of battery no matter what you do. and this is one tight gun.

since i blew up my uberti last year i have since switched to only loading one round at a time, for all my loads. i could see a overcharged load by a grain or so. but im not using max loads.

i could have over seated or over crimped the round however. or i think a possible weak / case.

but do you guys need close ups of anything.

[runfiverun]

titegroup get's super squirrelly when it is confined.
so a set back boolit could be the cause.

I can't see the case itself too well.
but from what I can see it looks like a case separation rather than a blow-out, [the line is super straight like it was cut part way then bent over to be broke off, on ejection maybe]
a blow-out will be bulged [and blown-out right at the bulge] and the primer pocket will be waay oversized [and usually oval shaped]
this is caused by pressure high enough that the case couldn't take it. [a case issue for sure, a pressure event maybe]

the next higher over pressure event is brass flowing [and the gun locks up usually]

[35remington]

A blow out will take a half moon out of the case but it will not separate it into two pieces.

And yes that is right.....a 1911 will not fire out of battery such to make a case blow.

Ever.

[flyingmonkey35]

well i got a great deal form wilson combat on a new set of wood grips, (just not the exotic wood :-( and a new mag for him.

YES im the type of guy who feels responsible for shooting my ammo out of someone else gun. if i was shooting factory ammo or his loads it be a different story.

as it was i got flash burn around my face and some small cuts on my nose. i wear shooting glasses all the time so i have that going for me.

odd thing is nothing on my hands, SO AWSOME gun I want one.

[dubber123]

Sorry, I thought your Uberti was a .45 cal. my bad.. :) I shot competition with the worst possible throw away .45 ACP brass. In fact most of it was rescued from a dumpster, as my friend deemed it too bad to use anymore. Ross Seyfried claimed to only throw away .45 ACP brass when the ejector peened the rim too much to fit in the shellholder. In other words, sure, I guess it's possible you got a piece of bad brass, but not too likely.

It's possible you dippered twice, but that is less likely than a double when using a measure. I'm still betting on a round getting the boolit seated deep during chambering. If you want to check, just push a loaded round against the edge of your loading bench. It's surprising sometimes. It's also pretty easy to get the feel for when one seats too easily. I bet the gun is just fine.

[flyingmonkey35]

i have to correct my self i checked my log book on this one i used a lee perfect powder measure, but still one case a time on the press.

[dubber123]

i have to correct my self i checked my log book on this one i used a lee perfect powder measure, but still one case a time on the press.

No offence, but LEEs powder measure always kinda scared me. If it is accurate and repeatable, no problem. If it even gave me the slightest hint of being sketchy like the one my friend had, it would go in the recycling bin.

[flyingmonkey35]

You know the only thing I did not mention was that round did jam first.

Pulled the slide back and it dropped in the chamber.

Then kB.

As I said swc and the automatics can catch. I think the bullet was smashed. I should have checked it.

[flyingmonkey35]

hey its just my pride hurt, and my face, and that may be a improvement.

[376Steyr]

Years ago I blew up my Colt Government with a double charge, with the same results as yours. I stripped it, checked for broken parts (none to be found), cleaned and lubed it, swapped in a fresh magazine for the destroyed one, and have been shooting it ever since. Unless you find an easily visible break or crack someplace, I think you'll be fine.

[CJR]

Years ago, the NRA did some pressure testing, on a 38 IIRC, with different seating depths. The pressures on deep seated bullets were around 65,000psi. 45ACP operates at around 21,000psi.

Care must be taken with 45ACP, in semi-autos, so that the bullet is not seated deeper into the case during the chambering process. Here's what I do with 45ACP:
1. I resize a 45ACP case and mike the inside diameter.
2. Then I turn down the case flaring stem until it freely enters the case and just flares the case mouth.
3. I then dump the powder and place the bullet in the case.
4. As the bullet is seated, the bullet will expand the case and have a tight fit.
5. I then taper crimp the loaded round as the final step. The taper crimp also bites into the bullet to help prevent deep seating on chambering.

I have been reloading 45ACP brass since 1956/7 ,where the headstamps on the cases are no longer visible , and I have never blown out a case. Also, some of this brass was used with Jeff Cooper's 45ACP load for a 215gr. CB at 1000fps.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

CJR

[MT Chambers]

2 guesses here: The Lee "perfect" equip. may not have been "perfect" or the bullet was pushed in on chambering and may have even expanded case in the process.

[NavyVet1959]

I had something similar happen with a 10mm M1911.

https://www.googledrive.com/host/0B8A9o0AImjXHfmlSQWdFVFRfSmd6d19mTG1jVXUzRWhrZk1KQ WFvdjJidlFtUERRcXh3M1k/ria-10mm-ruptured-brass.jpg

Although the grips were disassembled from the frame, they survived and the magazine could be reassembled, so it was no worse for the wear. I traced my problem down to thinking that my powder measure had Longshot in it and it had Alliant Promo instead.

[Char-Gar]

I'm just waiting for those that don't have the faintest idea of how the pistol works claim it "fired out of battery."

The 1911 cannot do so, even if all the safeties and disconnectors somehow fail.

The cause is either a too deeply seated bullet or a double charge.

Bingo! We have a winner!

It is possible to shove a bullet down with repeated hits on the feed ramp, or a single hit, if the case neck tension is to weak or there is not enough taper crimp. The bullet nose shape does make a difference in this regard.

This is why I don't loan guns to anyone.

[CPL Lou]

I had a friend, new to reloading, that decided to clean his brass using Hoppes #9.
His cases blew apart even though he was using 4.5grs of Bullseye with a 200 lswc.
It took him 3 tries before he took my advice to quit shooting those loads !
Ammonia is BAD for brass !!

CPL Lou

[NavyVet1959]

I had a friend, new to reloading, that decided to clean his brass using Hoppes #9.
His cases blew apart even though he was using 4.5grs of Bullseye with a 200 lswc.
It took him 3 tries before he took my advice to quit shooting those loads !
Ammonia is BAD for brass !!


The old Brasso that we used to polish brass in the Navy smelled like it was ammonia based.

[tomme boy]

So if the firing pin is broke or jammed forward and the round fires before the slide closes, what is that called if not and out of battery discharge????

I know it is a type of slam fire, but it could fire out of battery.

[Mk42gunner]

If the firing pin is protruding from the breech face, a round can't be fed and chambered in a 1911. As the round is stripped from the magazine, it slides up the breech face and under the extractor.

Try it some time with some dummy rounds.

Robert

[Dan Cash]

I'm just waiting for those that don't have the faintest idea of how the pistol works claim it "fired out of battery."

The 1911 cannot do so, even if all the safeties and disconnectors somehow fail.

The cause is either a too deeply seated bullet or a double charge.

A high primer or specifically, a large rifle primer darned sure can and will give an out of battery discharge as in slam fire. Your inexperience is showing.

[collyer]

I had the same thing happen on my 1911 Wesson. My problem was bullet not seated deep enough. Gun did not close all the way gave it bump to close not a good idea. Ruin only my clip. Brass look just like yours.

[35remington]

The OP indicated he hand chambered a round and the gun then burst the case. Since the 1911 will not fire out of battery with a pull of the trigger, this is not a slam fire or a stuck firing pin. He gave no indication the gun went off when the slide went shut.

[Char-Gar]

I find these kinds of threads to be sorta amazing. When a fellow posts a pic and thread of an event that is almost certainly an over pressure event, folks start to pile on with all sort of esoteric and unlikely causes.

[243winxb]

The cause is either a too deeply seated bullet or a double charge. This guy was 3/10 gr over Hodgdons maximum powder charge. Bullet set back on chambering. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_45acp-1.jpg (http://s338.photobucket.com/user/joe1944usa/media/45acp-1.jpg.html) http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/2015%20Reloading/th_45acp%20NeckTension%20A_zps2nhf4njc.jpg (http://s338.photobucket.com/user/joe1944usa/media/2015%20Reloading/45acp%20NeckTension%20A_zps2nhf4njc.jpg.html)

[mdi]

I'm also waiting, but perhaps most members here know it won't do dat! While not impossible, a double charge is much more difficult to achieve with a dipper...

[mdi]

I find these kinds of threads to be sorta amazing. When a fellow posts a pic and thread of an event that is almost certainly an over pressure event, folks start to pile on with all sort of esoteric and unlikely causes.

Does the term "Arm Chair Quarterback" fit? [smilie=l:I could never understand how someone could be so positively sure a certain condition was caused, by their specific reasoning, and all from a picture on a forum...

[Elkins45]

I had something similar happen with a 10mm M1911.

https://www.googledrive.com/host/0B8A9o0AImjXHfmlSQWdFVFRfSmd6d19mTG1jVXUzRWhrZk1KQ WFvdjJidlFtUERRcXh3M1k/ria-10mm-ruptured-brass.jpg

Although the grips were disassembled from the frame, they survived and the magazine could be reassembled, so it was no worse for the wear. I traced my problem down to thinking that my powder measure had Longshot in it and it had Alliant Promo instead.

I had a similar blowout (but with a different cause) in a Glock 20. The difference between a case failure in a steel gun and a polymer gun is that the polymer gun has to have the frame replaced. Glock was very reasonable on the replacement cost, but the FedEx overnight shipping to send them the blown up one was as much as the new frame.
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/elkins_pix/case.jpg (http://s292.photobucket.com/user/elkins_pix/media/case.jpg.html)
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/elkins_pix/Rcrack.jpg (http://s292.photobucket.com/user/elkins_pix/media/Rcrack.jpg.html)

[Char-Gar]

Does the term "Arm Chair Quarterback" fit? [smilie=l:I could never understand how someone could be so positively sure a certain condition was caused, by their specific reasoning, and all from a picture on a forum...

Please note the world "almost", I did leave some room, albeit small for other possibilities. The odd are vastly in favor of excessive pressure. With odds like that I could go to Las Vegas with a $5.00 bill and come home a very rich man.

This is not some fit of arrogance that can't be understood. It is just a man with many many years of experience stating the obvious.

[Char-Gar]

Some years back, a fellow blew up a good revolver with what he stated to be the classic 38 Special target load of 2.7 grains of Bullseye over a full wadcutter bullet. The arguments raged back and forward about the cause. It got to the point that the NRA commissioned H.P White labs to do some testing on that deep seating and/or multiple charges of powder, could do pressure wise. Here is the chart of what they came up with. As you can see, it doesn't take much deep seating to double the pressure.

It doesn't take much to shove the bullet down into the case, causing a deep seating pressure problem when a round is chambered. Factory ammo in autopistols do this on a regular basis. Some LEO agencies have a rule that once a round is chambered from the mag and ejected unfired, it is not put back into the magazine for another run into the chamber.

Handloads in autopistols are particularly susceptible to this. Much used or weak brass that loses it's spring back can be the cause. The lack of a proper crimp can also be the culprit. Over expanding the case or using a too small bullet also can be issues.

The long and short of it, is when a case head blows out on a autopistol where the head is properly supported by the chamber/barrel such blow out are symptomatic of over pressure. Care must be taken when throating a barrel at the breech end as to not leave the base of the round not shrouded in steel.

Sometimes, there can be a perfect storm of events coming together to put that one round over the top. Autopistols are safe enough, but there are some issues that need to be watched.

[flyingmonkey35]

The OP indicated he hand chambered a round and the gun then burst the case. Since the 1911 will not fire out of battery with a pull of the trigger, this is not a slam fire or a stuck firing pin. He gave no indication the gun went off when the slide went shut.
Correct it went off when I pulled the trigger.

[flyingmonkey35]

In this case I am have a feeling that the failure to chamber the first time caused the bullet to seat to far into the case. Thus causing the overpressure.

Short of going back in time and filming my reloading if this batch I can only go on what my notes say I did.

1 round at a time. I inspect each powder drop before I seat the bullet.


Keep in mind the reason we ask is there always someone who know more then you do. Or can look at it from a objective point of view.

[NavyVet1959]

With a fully supported chamber, you can go quite a bit over SAAMI pressure and not have a blowout like that. I've used regular .45 ACP brass at .460 Rowland pressure and not had any noticeable case deformation, much less an actual blowout. But in that case, the gun was already set up for .460 Rowland pressure. If I had tried it with a stock G21, I would have most likely had a different result.

Things that could cause it:


Using the wrong powder (i.e. using a fast powder while using the reloading data for a slower powder). This is what happened to me when I had a similar end result.
Double charge of right powder.
Bullet setback.
Too weak of a recoil spring might allow the case to start being ejected before the bullet has exited the barrel. From what I understand, this is why the .460 Rowland needs both a heavier recoil spring and a compensator on the barrel to keep it locked up long enough for the bullet to exit the barrel.
Unsupported chamber in combination with a hot load.
Defect in the brass.


It's possible that some of these by themselves might not cause it, but if they are combined with any of the others, it could be a problem.

Having a M1911 disassemble itself in your hand sure wakes you up though.

[35remington]

NavyVet, remember this is a locked breech arm. The gun could have no recoil spring at all and it would still safely fire with no blowout. Due to its design the barrel cannot unlock before the bullet leaves the barrel and the pressure holding the barrel in lockup with the slide is gone.

the heavy spring and compensator is to reduce slide velocity on the Rowland. It has zero effect on when the gun unlocks....again, that can't happen until the bullet is gone.

[dkf]

A high primer or specifically, a large rifle primer darned sure can and will give an out of battery discharge as in slam fire. Your inexperience is showing.

That is his favorite thing to ramble about. Notice he was the first to bring it up.

[35remington]

The OP said it was discharged with a pull of the trigger so out of battery has been clearly eliminated as a cause.

Sorry my being correct rankles to such a degree, but that's on you, not me.

[lightload]

OP, unless I overlooked it, I didn't see the boolit diameter stated. A .452 diameter would allow the case to have more boolit pull, and that combined with a firm taper crimp will likely prevent set-back. My best .45 acp ammo has always been loaded with military cases, which are thicker. Commercial cases vary in wall thickness, and some have been too thin to give best results with my dies. One solution for avoiding set back is having a custom made smaller diameter expander. Would the M die better serve the reloader here?

Not every reloader has sufficient humility to admit that he "blew up" a couple handguns. You do, sir.

[35remington]

We all make mistakes. It is a combination of things that may cause problems and no one is above error. From this one can learn and hopefully prevent a recurrence.

[Blackwater]

I was once where you are now, OP, and it's a VERY uncomfortable place to be. I'd just about guarantee you that it's either a mistake in the charge, or the type of powder used when you THOUGHT it was something different, or it was simply a case of a too thin case that didn't grip the bullet well enough to prevent its being pushed back into the case, thereby reducing case capacity (which increases pressures GREATLY sometimes. I'd just about bet the farm on it. It took me nearly a week to trace down what I'd done. It was so unthinkable, given my normal rather obsessive nature in loading, that it really hit me like a ton of bricks that I was actually fallible! But I was. And I did. And it taught me a lesson that I'll never forget.

Frankly, the 2nd possibility I listed isn't likely, since other loads performed as expected. This means it's almost surely either the first or third possibility, and frankly, it COULD be either. The problem is we never realize we're making a mistake WHEN we're making it, or we'd obviously correct them. If the powder you're using (can't remember which at this point) won't allow double charges or significantly overcharges and still let you seat a bullet on top of it, then by simple process of elimination, you're probably left with #3 as being the reason for your mishap - the bullet being pushed back in feeding. The jam that you had just before firing it lends additional credence to this, at least a bit.

Whatever it is that caused it, you've learned a great lesson and didn't have to pay heavily for it, and you also simply survived it, which is always a big factor. Just never forget it, and focus more on what you're doing AS YOU DO IT, and you won't have it happen again. Now, that's really all that you can do. You're just lucky it only cost you another mag and set of grips for your buddy. We DO at least tend to learn the hard lessons MUCH better AFTER these things happen. Not all are so lucky, so be thankful, and be humble enough to learn from it, and wise enough to benefit from it from now on, and it'll have made you a wiser and better man. Life can't really get much better than that, IF we survive our mistakes. I know that's the effect it had on ME

[Char-Gar]

In this case I am have a feeling that the failure to chamber the first time caused the bullet to seat to far into the case. Thus causing the overpressure.

Short of going back in time and filming my reloading if this batch I can only go on what my notes say I did.

1 round at a time. I inspect each powder drop before I seat the bullet.


Keep in mind the reason we ask is there always someone who know more then you do. Or can look at it from a objective point of view.

What type, if any, and how much crimp did you put on the round in question?

[jonp]

A blow out will take a half moon out of the case but it will not separate it into two pieces.

And yes that is right.....a 1911 will not fire out of battery such to make a case blow.

Ever.
Please explain your half moon comment

[jonp]

I find these kinds of threads to be sorta amazing. When a fellow posts a pic and thread of an event that is almost certainly an over pressure event, folks start to pile on with all sort of esoteric and unlikely causes.
I find them interesting. The drift often has much information in it as this one does if you take the time to dissect and research it

[knifemaker]

Your case failure with a 45ACP pistol is not as uncommon as you might think. I am a retired LEO firearms instructor and have seen similar blowouts with 1911 pistols. First off, the odds are greatly in your favor that there is no damage to the gun based on your description of what happen.
The two most common causes are a overload or the bullet being seated too deep in the case and causing a pressure spike that blew out the web of the case.
I am willing to bet the cause was due to a case not having enough neck tension on the bullet and when the slide slammed the loaded case forward into battery, the nose of the bullet hit the feed ramp with enough force that pushed the bullet deeper into the case and caused a big enough jump in pressure to blow out just in front of the case web. This area of the case is not supported by the barrel chamber due to the feed ramp cut in the barrel chamber and is the weak spot for the case to blow.
I have seen one where it blew the wood grips off the gun and blew the magazine out of the bottom of the magazine well. Upon examing the magazine, the unfired top round in the magazine had been inverted and was facing backwards in the mag. The gun was sent to Colt and they found it in factory specs and no damage to the gun except for the wood grips and magazine.
Having proper neck tension in your 45 auto cases is very important because since the caliber seats on the case mouth, you can not roll crimp the case to hold the bullet in place as you can with magnum revolver ammo. 45 ACP requires a slight taper crimp for good feeding and function making neck tension more important then ammo reloaded for revolver use.

[35remington]

The case usually blows out over the unsupported area of the feed ramp and is intact everywhere else it is supported. The blowout is crescent or half moon in shape. Not a profound observation, really.

[jonp]

The case usually blows out over the unsupported area of the feed ramp and is intact everywhere else it is supported. The blowout is crescent or half moon in shape. Not a profound observation, really.

No, but I didn't understand what it was referencing. I have a 45ACP but don't primarily shoot it.

[44man]

Judging by the position of the blow out, It looks like the base of the boolit was right there from being shoved deeper so I will go with that.
It is possible to slam fire one with a proud primer or the wrong primer but that is not the case here. Once the gun is in battery and the trigger is pulled rules that out.
I am just happy nobody was injured and the fix will be cheap enough.
Don't fool with an "M" expander, it can reduce tension.

[Shiloh]

I had something similar happen with a 10mm M1911.

https://www.googledrive.com/host/0B8A9o0AImjXHfmlSQWdFVFRfSmd6d19mTG1jVXUzRWhrZk1KQ WFvdjJidlFtUERRcXh3M1k/ria-10mm-ruptured-brass.jpg

Although the grips were disassembled from the frame, they survived and the magazine could be reassembled, so it was no worse for the wear. I traced my problem down to thinking that my powder measure had Longshot in it and it had Alliant Promo instead.

Pressure difference between 10mm and .45 ACP is about 15K. Nice pic.

Shiloh

[NavyVet1959]

Pressure difference between 10mm and .45 ACP is about 15K. Nice pic.


Someone ran Quickload on what I had mistakenly loaded and it was supposedly something like 167K psi, IIRC.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?256308-10mm-220gr-cast-load-check&p=3102678&viewfull=1#post3102678

Loading 8.6 gr of Alliant Promo (Red Dot equiv) instead of Longshot makes a *big* difference. :(

The photo was just something quickly taken with a jeweler's loupe held in front of a cell phone (or maybe iPad) camera, so it's not really that great. Just something quick-n-dirty...

[mdi]

Please note the world "almost", I did leave some room, albeit small for other possibilities. The odd are vastly in favor of excessive pressure. With odds like that I could go to Las Vegas with a $5.00 bill and come home a very rich man.

This is not some fit of arrogance that can't be understood. It is just a man with many many years of experience stating the obvious.

I didn't single yer post out Char-Gar, I was just reading all the answers as to why the Kaboom happened and it just hit me; diagnosing a condition without seeing the gun, just a small pic on a forum is, to me, like trying to diagnose a computer controlled load sensor/safety lock-out unit on a 27 ton hydraulic crane on the phone with a pissed-off operator...:veryconfu

[Char-Gar]

I didn't single yer post out Char-Gar, I was just reading all the answers as to why the Kaboom happened and it just hit me; diagnosing a condition without seeing the gun, just a small pic on a forum is, to me, like trying to diagnose a computer controlled load sensor/safety lock-out unit on a 27 ton hydraulic crane on the phone with a pissed-off operator...:veryconfu

Oh come on now, when you quote a fellow's post and respond to it, you can't say you didn't single that post out for a reply. I hope you don't expect me to believe otherwise. If you made a mistake in a post, admit to it. If you didn't make a mistaken then stand by it. But, don't expect me to believe some cock and bull story. I am not that stupid. Below is a cut and paste of that post.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Char-Gar http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=3266024#post3266024)
I find these kinds of threads to be sorta amazing. When a fellow posts a pic and thread of an event that is almost certainly an over pressure event, folks start to pile on with all sort of esoteric and unlikely causes.



Does the term "Arm Chair Quarterback" fit? [smilie=l:I could never understand how someone could be so positively sure a certain condition was caused, by their specific reasoning, and all from a picture on a forum...

[35remington]

There are some qualified commentators here and they have the years of experience to back it up. Let's acknowledge that something of value has been offered here and let it go at that. Very good information has been exchanged so far, and a continuation of that is what is helpful.

[MtGun44]

I have done this once, about 32 years ago, and observed about 4 or 5 others first
hand. This is normal for a double charge.

I have to agree with Char-Gar about the number of amazing theories that come out
of the woodworks on a very ordinary, oft-repeated human error.

The best news is no serious damage to shooter or gun.

Be safe.

Bill

[Cap'n Morgan]

This certainly looks like a case of over-pressure (pun intended) but I have seen some bulged 45 cases due to a "gunsmith" having removed way too much material from the ramp. If such a case is reloaded (and re-bulged) a couple of times all bets are off.

There you have it: Another theory just popped out of the woodworks :wink:

[mdi]

Actually, Char-Gar, my response was in agreement with yours (said in all seriousness). My post included a LOL smiley to indicate the post was in jest, because inflections and emotions cannot be clearly expressed in black and white forum replies, and many choose to insert their own meanings for some posts (thin shinned). I did not single you out, I just agreed with you, but I suppose I cannot be believed because I'm not a self appointed forum expert (now for those that can't understand sarcasm, that was sarcastic). If my replies/posts don't agree with you, sorry (sarcasm), and the best solution is to go to your CP and "unfriend" me (serious).

(I have tried to let the readers know how I meant my above response to be interpreted, as what my black and white words meant to convey, but I'm sure some won't understand that either. Normally I just want folks to read what the words say, not what some think they should say or the stuff between the lines). Done with this BS post, clear enough?

[Blackwater]

FWIW at this point, Lightload's comments about the varying thickness of brass at the case mouth really IS a consideration here, I think, or at least possibly is. Any time I find a case that wont' hold a bullet tightly, I scrap it in .45 ACP. Just not worth the risk for a single piece of brass. It CAN be used IF we use a smaller diameter expander spindle, but I've found few enough like that to really be worth turning/sanding one down just for those cases, so I've come to just chuck them. This really IS a consideration in loading the .45 or any other caliber for use in semi-autos. In feeding, the bullet is slammed so hard against the feed ramp that if we don't get a tight fit, and a good taper crimp that turns the case mouth slightly into the boolit's sides, forming a tiny little "shelf" for it to resist being pushed back into the case. If we neglect that little tidbit, or aren't focused enough to notice these things, we WILL at some point suffer the consequences.

Many today, mostly because of the heavy demands on our time, WANT to rush through things as quickly as we CAN. Nothing's wrong with that, but the key word there is "CAN." If we rush through TOO fast, and neglect things like this, it's going to bite us in the butt sooner or later.

Also, there seems to be at least a bit of attitude among some, particularly the younger ones, that they just want something that'll work and go bang and shoot decently for their present skill levels. I think this is the wrong way to approach reloading. FWIW, most reloaders, once they realize its potential, come to want BETTER ammo than they can buy across the shelf. There's a simple reason for this. It CAN be done! And it really doesn't take "extra" time so much as it takes a simple willingness to look for and test out different loads and proceedures, as we work our way gradually along the line to edification and finesse, and DEVELOP our skills, rather than simply doing a repetitive task without ever really getting much back from it. All we have to do is just change our attitude so it's more commensurate with a set goal, like accuracy in a given gun. Don't keep shooting the same old loads every time. Change the charge wt. slightly, or try another powder, another bullet or primer (yes, they DO in fact make occasional significant differences), or OAL to get ctgs. to feed just right instead of just "good enough" - there must be a million little things we can do to increase our knowledge and experience level, but we have to DO them, which means we have to FOCUS better and more specifically when we cast and load and shoot.

I know some will find this a bit off-putting, and not in line with their current approach, but I think experience will prove it out. FWIW???

[Char-Gar]

Actually, Char-Gar, my response was in agreement with yours (said in all seriousness). My post included a LOL smiley to indicate the post was in jest, because inflections and emotions cannot be clearly expressed in black and white forum replies, and many choose to insert their own meanings for some posts (thin shinned). I did not single you out, I just agreed with you, but I suppose I cannot be believed because I'm not a self appointed forum expert (now for those that can't understand sarcasm, that was sarcastic). If my replies/posts don't agree with you, sorry (sarcasm), and the best solution is to go to your CP and "unfriend" me (serious).

(I have tried to let the readers know how I meant my above response to be interpreted, as what my black and white words meant to convey, but I'm sure some won't understand that either. Normally I just want folks to read what the words say, not what some think they should say or the stuff between the lines). Done with this BS post, clear enough?

Just a couple of things;

People are not thin "shinned", they are thin "skinned"

You can't "unfriend" people on this board, but you can place them on your individual "ignore" list which doesn't make their posts visible for you to see.

Lastly, if all else fails in your life, consider becoming a politicians as you seem eminently qualified. You don't take responsibility for what you say, if called on it, and try and explain it as something it was not, with the profuse use of weasel word.

But in your defense, people who take responsibility for their words and actions these days are very few.

[Char-Gar]

I find them interesting. The drift often has much information in it as this one does if you take the time to dissect and research it

I am sure that many folks think like you do. However I am the type of person that tries to solve problems and unlikely theories from left field do not contribute the the solution and often confuse the person asking for help.

When there are issues to be discussed and no problem to solve, a free ranging discussion is often interesting and informative. However when s person asking for help, such wide discussion are not helpful and often confusing.

I do very much appreciate your comment, as it made me consider just why I find such unlikely theories such an irritant. I really think this speaks more to my quirkiness than any thing else.

[country gent]

One other thing that hasnt really been brought up yet is the age life of the brass involved. A new case or once fired is stronger and will do better withstanding pressures than an old tired case with many loading sizing on it. Chamber dimensions of the firearms brass has been fired in can also affect this, generous chambers seem to lower case life due to added expansion whe fired. I have also found this more true in semi autos as they seem to be harder on brass thru more violent ejections and handling of the rounds cases. One posted stated he was .3 grns over max in a manual. In new or once fired cases they will probably be fine Harder on gun and brass. The 10th or 12th loading on a case all is up for guess then. Brass flows under pressure repeated sizing and loadings also affect the brass. This could have been an upperend load in old tired brass.

[popper]

Had one like that when I first started loading for 40SW. FC stamped brass - bad stuff - known problem. Use a magnifier and look for micro fractures at the extractor cut - for that HS. It does wake you up when it happens. The round went down range, case stuck in the chamber and base hit me in the face. Looked just like your pic. No it didn't damage the XD but I did clean and look at it real well.

[MtGun44]

Brass gets harder (stronger) as it is shot more, until it cracks, essentially always
at the neck because it is worked the most there and working hardens brass.

[Char-Gar]

Brass gets harder (stronger) as it is shot more, until it cracks, essentially always
at the neck because it is worked the most there and working hardens brass.

Correct, brass hardens with working until it becomes brittle (looses it's elasticity) and splits. This work hardening of the case mouths/necks also has an effect on brass spring back after sizing and therefore neck tension. This is why cast bullet shooters that shoot matches, anneal the brass frequently to restore the elasticity and uniform neck tension. Some folks anneal after each firing, but I think that is excessive.

I am reasonable certain that the bullet was shoved back into the case upon striking the feed ramp in the case at hand. This may or may not have been influenced by work hardening of the brass, however I think the crimp or lack thereof is a more likely suspect.

This is why I asked the question about crimp up the thread, which has not been answered. I find in these frequent threads about troubles people have with reloading the 45 ACP round in the autopistol, many don't understand the importance of the use of a properly applied taper crimp to the finished round. My gut feeling is the crux of the problem will be found there.

The OP seems to have come to closure about the problem being a round that had the bullet shoved back into the case and jumped ship on this thread. I think there is an issues yet to be resolved and that is WHY did the bullet shove back? I know of factory ammo having the bullets shoved back in the feeding cycle from the magazine, but I have never had a round of my handloads do that, nor do I want the experience.

This is why I am so interested in the crimp issue. The OP also stated he was using powder coated bullets. I have no experience with these things and wonder what, if any, effect that might have on the issue at hand?

I wish somebody would do some testing on just how much force is required to shove the bullet down in rounds properly loaded with jacketed, lead alloy and powder coated bullets. Certainly there will be some difference, but how much and the significant of the difference is the question.

[mdi]

Just a couple of things;

People are not thin "shinned", they are thin "skinned"

You can't "unfriend" people on this board, but you can place them on your individual "ignore" list which doesn't make their posts visible for you to see.

Lastly, if all else fails in your life, consider becoming a politicians as you seem eminently qualified. You don't take responsibility for what you say, if called on it, and try and explain it as something it was not, with the profuse use of weasel word.

But in your defense, people who take responsibility for their words and actions these days are very few.

Wow, when I get old and senile I wanna be just like char-gar! Arrogant, opinionated, self appointed "expert" on everything, including mind reading from afar. Then I will amass over 11,000 posts and anoint myself as "Forum God" and read into every post what I think the poster should say, as I will have, as chur gur ascended to the height of "All Knowing, Sacred One" and my thoughts will become Gospel and i'll be revered as "The One"...

Now that's sarcasm!

[Char-Gar]

Wow, when I get old and senile I wanna be just like char-gar! Arrogant, opinionated, self appointed "expert" on everything, including mind reading from afar. Then I will amass over 11,00 posts and anoint myself as "Forum God" and read into every post what I think the poster should say, as I will have, as chur gur ascended to the height of "All Knowing, Sacred One" and my thoughts will become Gospel and i'll be revered as "The One"...

Now that's sarcasm!

I guess you really didn't mean it , when you said you "were done with the BS post, clear enough".

Forum god, sounds good to me. Do we have to put that to a vote or can I do that by Executive Action?

Now that is tongue in cheek!

[Aunegl]

This friendly banter makes my day.

[stubby1]

This friendly banter makes my day.


:kidding: ...reminds me of the blue hairs at the wife's hair salon...:wink:

[popper]

properly loaded with jacketed, lead alloy and powder coated bullets I can't tel the difference in 9,40 or several 30s, all autoloaders. I crimp to just remove the bell. I did get push back using the RD in the AR when it hit the mag well - wouldn't chamber - a jam.

[rsrocket1]

Interesting observations on the brass:

The firing pin mark is very heavily cratered, but the primer did not flow against the edge, it is still well rounded.

The brass that was in contact with the chamber sealed off the gases very well, it's still shiny while the blowout portion is heavily sooted.

The back of the blown out portion looks like it would follow the shape of the feed ramp cutout on a barrel.

To the OP,
Glad you came out in one piece and be very glad that this did not occur in a polymer frame gun. Replacement grips and magazine are much cheaper than a replacement for a cracked frame.

[35remington]

By actual testing, no amount of taper crimp holds a jacketed bullet in place against setback. Taper crimp works on lead bullets to prevent setback, but only when applied in excess of what is commonly recommended. The oft repeated "correct" .470-471" doesn't do much.

See the holding effect of the taper crimp alone and discover this for yourself. The most important factor in case grip is bullet/case fit. Taper crimp is very secondary or no factor at all in preventing setback. A vicious taper crimp is no substitute for proper case grip. In point of actual use a taper crimp ensures the flare is removed and the cartridge fully chambers, not that the bullet stays in place.

[Char-Gar]

By actual testing, no amount of taper crimp holds a jacketed bullet in place against setback. Taper crimp works on lead bullets to prevent setback, but only when applied in excess of what is commonly recommended. The oft repeated "correct" .470-471" doesn't do much.

See the holding effect of the taper crimp alone and discover this for yourself. The most important factor in case grip is bullet/case fit. Taper crimp is very secondary or no factor at all in preventing setback. A vicious taper crimp is no substitute for proper case grip. In point of actual use a taper crimp ensures the flare is removed and the cartridge fully chambers, not that the bullet stays in place.

OK...now please describe as "proper case grip". I really an interested in this subject.

[MtGun44]

"The oft repeated .470-.471. . . ."

I have oft-repeated that I recommend and use .465-466" TC. I do disagree
with the folks that insist that somehow that is "overcrimping", a concept which
I put in the same category as unicorns and Bigfoot.

Is there any REAL reason that the apparent 'consensus' is a pushed in boolit
rather than a double charge? IMO, with the .45 ACP, the pressures from a
pushin are far less likely to do this than a double charge. In a 9mm, with
the tiny case volume, seems far more credible to look at pushin issues.

[Blackwater]

Wow! FWIW, Char-Gar has been a very long standing, very knowledgeable, experienced and valued contributor here. Many here used to poke fun at each other and speak very frankly, but it was all dealt with in good humor and mutual respect, and anything that got out of hand (very rare) got settled quickly and well. Now that the place has grown, the influx of many who are relatively new to the craft, or at least new here, seem to have very "tender" egos that can't withstand much perceived abuse, whether the perception is valid or not. In today's PC world, to simply disagree with and challenge someone's statements seems to be largely and often regarded as an "attack." This seems really strange to me, since I know of no way of settling a puzzling issue of importance any other way than offering different and sometimes conflicting theories, and working it all out with all the input usually being appreciated all the way around. But today, it's NOT appreciated all the way around, and some get their tender feelings hurt WAY past what's due or seemly. That may be the way of the world now, but it'll never be quite "right" as a way of dealing with the real issues that sometimes DO come up here simply due to the technical nature of our craft. It's as though some wind up saying, "How DARE you disagree with me!" How anyone comes to feel they're beyond being able to be disagreed with is beyond me, but I guess there are a lot of other things I don't "get" about this "New Millenium" and its curious and "newfangled" ways?

Here, it is NOT all about anyone's "opinion" or "tender feelings." It's about what MATTERS, and that's the technical answers that solve the posters' problems and adds something to the craft. It'd be really nice of some if the folks here could "get" that about this site, but I guess I won't hold my breath until that happens, but it's never wrong to wish for things to be better or more appropriate, is it?

[stubby1]

Wow! FWIW, Char-Gar has been a very long standing, very knowledgeable, experienced and valued contributor here. Many here used to poke fun at each other and speak very frankly, but it was all dealt with in good humor and mutual respect, and anything that got out of hand (very rare) got settled quickly and well. Now that the place has grown, the influx of many who are relatively new to the craft, or at least new here, seem to have very "tender" egos that can't withstand much perceived abuse, whether the perception is valid or not. In today's PC world, to simply disagree with and challenge someone's statements seems to be largely and often regarded as an "attack." This seems really strange to me, since I know of no way of settling a puzzling issue of importance any other way than offering different and sometimes conflicting theories, and working it all out with all the input usually being appreciated all the way around. But today, it's NOT appreciated all the way around, and some get their tender feelings hurt WAY past what's due or seemly. That may be the way of the world now, but it'll never be quite "right" as a way of dealing with the real issues that sometimes DO come up here simply due to the technical nature of our craft. It's as though some wind up saying, "How DARE you disagree with me!" How anyone comes to feel they're beyond being able to be disagreed with is beyond me, but I guess there are a lot of other things I don't "get" about this "New Millenium" and its curious and "newfangled" ways?

Here, it is NOT all about anyone's "opinion" or "tender feelings." It's about what MATTERS, and that's the technical answers that solve the posters' problems and adds something to the craft. It'd be really nice of some if the folks here could "get" that about this site, but I guess I won't hold my breath until that happens, but it's never wrong to wish for things to be better or more appropriate, is it?

Great post, especially the observation about the "community of the ultra sensitive" (not my term) - simple differences of opinion are like sunlight on a vampire to these folks...
I will stop here as this is a hot button topic for me but this current trend of "political correctness" is one of the symptoms of the moral decay of our society in the USA.

[flyingmonkey35]

As I am the op, I really hope that the comments posted on this thread will NOT scare / shame some one from posting questions.

I knew I'd have to have a thick skin.

Any way

I use a Lee factory crimp die. Very light.

I've had extremely great performance with the load I was using.


Would a large rifle primer cause the over pressure??

Though I don't not see me doing it. As I load per 100 at a time. Just a thought?

[bruce381]

""wish somebody would do some testing on just how much force is required to shove the bullet down in rounds properly loaded with jacketed, lead alloy and powder coated bullets. Certainly there will be some difference, but how much and the significant of the difference is the question.""

There are lube industry tests that will show how a lube/additves can change the COF of the fluid. Tested on a rotating disk with a staionary stylus type "pin" pushing down on the disk. I bet you could use a dry boolit intead of the stylus and get a COF of the various boolit alloys, coatings dry lubes etc. I guess the lower COF (slipperyer?) and would may point to PC coated as needing more crimp?

Interesting idea.

[quickdraw66]

Looks like a case head failure. If the brass was bad, it could have caused that. Do you anneal your brass?

[smokeywolf]

Although the condition of the brass prior to loading is not mentioned, the obvious primer flow around the firing pin make 35remington and Char-Gar's explanations the most likely; Ockham's razor folks.
To put it simply, Ockham's razor says that the hypothesis that is based on the fewest assumptions and the simplest diagnostics is likely the correct one.

[Char-Gar]

As I am the op, I really hope that the comments posted on this thread will NOT scare / shame some one from posting questions.

I knew I'd have to have a thick skin.

Any way

I use a Lee factory crimp die. Very light.

I've had extremely great performance with the load I was using.


Would a large rifle primer cause the over pressure??

Though I don't not see me doing it. As I load per 100 at a time. Just a thought?



The rifle primer is taller than pistol primer and will sit proud above the case head when seated to the bottom of the pocket. That is not good!

I see no reason why this thread would deter others from asking questions. Such questions inevitability result in wide variety of theories being thrown out and no small amount of disagreement. This is pretty much standard and should not be a cause of concern.

Issues related to the reloading of the 45 ACP round are very common on this board due to the popularity of the round and the 1911 pistols.

The 1911/45 ACP combo has been around for 104 years now and reloaded for that long as well. There are my mysteries or secrets yet to be discovered about the reloading process. The problems seem to have their origins in the new tooling (like Lee FC dies), new powders and new coatings (Powder Coating) that are popular these days. I don't use this tooling, powders and coatings, so all I can do is ask questions and speculate.

When reloaded with traditional tooling, traditional powders and traditional cast bullets, the way forward is well beaten down, proven and problem free. I have reloaded and shot well over 1/4 million rounds of cast bullet 45 ACP ammo through a wide variety of 1911 pistols, from rattletrap USGI to highly tuned match pistols. I have had no serious issues in all that time (1962 to present).

These pistols and the round can be amazingly accurate, fun and useful handguns. They are among my favorite.

I can only hope this thread has been useful to you despite it digressions and conflicts. Good shooting.

[Char-Gar]

""wish somebody would do some testing on just how much force is required to shove the bullet down in rounds properly loaded with jacketed, lead alloy and powder coated bullets. Certainly there will be some difference, but how much and the significant of the difference is the question.""

There are lube industry tests that will show how a lube/additves can change the COF of the fluid. Tested on a rotating disk with a staionary stylus type "pin" pushing down on the disk. I bet you could use a dry boolit intead of the stylus and get a COF of the various boolit alloys, coatings dry lubes etc. I guess the lower COF (slipperyer?) and would may point to PC coated as needing more crimp?

Interesting idea.

The results of such testing of various bullets would indeed be interesting. I am betting that
PC coated bullets would be a bunch slicker. Lead alloy, depending on the hardness can grab the feed ramp of an autopistols, that is why I like to polish them mirror smooth. All of this would have an influence on the crimp needed on various bullets to prevent setback from striking the ramp at the wrong angle.

[Char-Gar]

By actual testing, no amount of taper crimp holds a jacketed bullet in place against setback. Taper crimp works on lead bullets to prevent setback, but only when applied in excess of what is commonly recommended. The oft repeated "correct" .470-471" doesn't do much.

See the holding effect of the taper crimp alone and discover this for yourself. The most important factor in case grip is bullet/case fit. Taper crimp is very secondary or no factor at all in preventing setback. A vicious taper crimp is no substitute for proper case grip. In point of actual use a taper crimp ensures the flare is removed and the cartridge fully chambers, not that the bullet stays in place.

I don't see the importance of a taper crimp primarily as preventing set back. I see the value the boost it gives to reliable feeding of the rounds from the magazine into the chamber and then into full battery with the slide forward.

I have no recollection of ever having loaded a jacketed bullet in the 45 ACP round and am certain I have never loaded an powder coated bullets as I have never laid my eyes on the gizmos.

I use a USGI or factory loaded 45 ACP round to set my taper crimp dies and have no idea what the case mouth measures.

[rsrocket1]

I have tried to use a Lee FCD with a PC boolit in 9 and 40 and the disturbing result I got was that yes the bullet gets swaged down and yes the bullet can get pulled out with your fingers or if you try to extract an unfired round already chambered in the gun. However, I did notice that the bullet would not set back even after getting swaged down by the FCD. I was not able to push the bullet in any further even when leaning on the bullet pressed against the table top. Both bullets are TC type with a vertical portion of the bullet sticking out above the rim and the bullets are sized to 0.356" and 0.401" which makes for snug chambering in my tight throated M&P barrels (that's probably why the unfired bullets pulled out of the case when unchambering).

If the taper crimp goes beyond vertical, it may begin to dig into a softer bullet to help prevent setback. That's why rifle bullets have cannelure's on them. Not for ignition purposes, but to prevent bullet movement in the case during months to decades of transportation and jarring. BTW I don't crimp my rifle rounds, even if the bullets have cannelure's on them.

[Blackwater]

One other aspect of this situation that might, at least theoretically, be at least part of the equation (many problems that arise have more than one problem at their root, and sometimes it can be the interaction of two or more factors that result in the final cause), is the actual curing of the PC on the bullets. I've done some powder and related coating, and I found out that these can be very demanding of getting just the right temps and just the right duration of that heat's application to function fully as intended and designed. Could it have been possible that the PC didn't harden fully, thereby acting as a soft lube that was thicker than the crimp's inward turning of the case mouth, and let the bullet slip down into the case, thereby causing the problem????

I'm just trying to do some "free thinking" here, because this is a particular set of conditions that I've personally never seen discussed before, and thus, want to find the "real answer" and not just something to blame it on. Similar things HAVE occurred with regular lubes and with Jbullets, but I just can't help but wonder if PC, or more properly, faulty PC due to an inaccurate thermostat (very common) or whatever, might be at least a contributor here? Like many mysteries, this one seems to get curioser and curiouser as we delve deeper into it. Or at least the possibilities do.

[mdi]

Yahoo! The "ignore" function works great. 4 posts by the resident "expert" blocked! Cool!

[popper]

You know the only thing I did not mention was that round did jam first Me thinks you found the problem. I've had 308W pushed all the way down on the powder when it hit the mag well.

[jonp]

"The oft repeated .470-.471. . . ."

I have oft-repeated that I recommend and use .465-466" TC. I do disagree
with the folks that insist that somehow that is "overcrimping", a concept which
I put in the same category as unicorns and Bigfoot.

Is there any REAL reason that the apparent 'consensus' is a pushed in boolit
rather than a double charge? IMO, with the .45 ACP, the pressures from a
pushin are far less likely to do this than a double charge. In a 9mm, with
the tiny case volume, seems far more credible to look at pushin issues.
Ive never heard .465 recommended. .468 is about as low as ive heard

[35remington]

If you want taper crimping to aid bullet retention on lead bullets, then .470-.471 is not for you.