Neck reamer to expand 43 Spanish chamber neck to 44-77 diameter?

[ohland]

After looking thru COTW, I see the 43 Spanish and 44-77 share many similarities (.004 difference in shoulder, IIRC). The bore is superb (groove .445+), but the neck is not going to take a boolit much over .439 (if that). Any recommendations on where to go for a reamer that will open the neck up?

[Don McDowell]

Most modern 44-77 bores are .436 to 438.

[montana_charlie]

Any recommendations on where to go for a reamer that will open the neck up?
Type chambering reamer into your favorite search engine.

[ohland]

Most modern 44-77 bores are .436 to 438.

More precisely the 44-77 Remington. While looking for rental reamers, I saw a "44-77 Sharps". Oh boy, that's all we need is more incompatible chambers drifting around... Make me go dig up COTW again...

[country gent]

Dave Manson at Manson reamers can grind you any reamer you want. All you have to do is draw it up. Look at his site and see what he offers before going thru the time to duplicate an existing. Dave does great work. I have several reamers ground buy him. Another is clymer reamers. Both a michigan based companies

[leadman]

Be careful about reaming some of these old Rolling blocks. Read an article in an older Rifle magazine that stated Remington sleeved many chambers to change the cartridge the rifle took when they had rifles on hand that were not deliverable to the original buyers .
Why not just load it for what the current chamber is? I am pretty sure Lyman still sells a proper mold.
Elk Ridge Reamers has a 44-77 reamer for rent. Might try 4D also.

[Don McDowell]

More precisely the 44-77 Remington. While looking for rental reamers, I saw a "44-77 Sharps". Oh boy, that's all we need is more incompatible chambers drifting around... Make me go dig up COTW again...
Both cartridges are one and the same. Remington loaded theirs with 75 grs of powder, at first, Sharps loaded 70 grs. When Remington quit the cartridge they loaded 77 grs, Sharps had moved to 75 grs.
But that is neither here nor there, unless you find some one that has an original spec'ld reamer, and lord only knows what the measurements for those would be, as the bores went anywhere from .438-450, modern reamers are spec'ld mostly at .438 bore.
I get along great shooting .429-435 diameter slicks before patching in both of my 44-77's and know a couple of folks that have shot bullets I've sent them in their originals with good results.

[ohland]

stated Remington sleeved many chambers to change the cartridge the rifle took
Why not just load it for what the current chamber is? I am pretty sure Lyman still sells a proper mold.
Elk Ridge Reamers has a 44-77 reamer for rent. Might try 4D also.

This bore is sparkling.... If anyone sleeved it the workmanship is awesome.
Well, when my .439 H&I arrives, the old retrobate will finish loading it with black. I bought 20 Captech (nee Jameson Brass) .43 Spanish cases from Buffalo Arms.

Another battle to fight. But... it does sit wrong that I have a .445 groove but the chamber and brass will only allow .439 and a skosh. All that needs to happen is about .003 wider on each side and those gorgeous RCBS 44-370-FN will chamber... A proper flat base boolit, none of this heretical "bevel base" blasphemy... Burn them all. We must strengthen the strain.

[fouronesix]

I wouldn't get too wrapped up in historical correctness with some of these old guns. The M1879 43 Spanish issue ammo was loaded with some of the earliest jacketed bullets.:shock:

[Buckshot]

I wouldn't get too wrapped up in historical correctness with some of these old guns. The M1879 43 Spanish issue ammo was loaded with some of the earliest jacketed bullets.:shock:

Never in the 43 Spanish Remington. You're thinking of the 43 Spanish Reformando.

http://www.fototime.com/C92CB92F72C55D2/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/B2ED114FF9356A7/standard.jpg

The 2 cartridges on the left are .43 Remington Spanish, 11mm Remington, or 11.15x 58R Remington Spanish. The necked cartridges are easily seen to be different then the 3 on the right. The 3 loaded cartridges on the right are the Spanish Reformando, and there is NO SHOULDER, as the case were not necked down to .439". The 43 Spanish Remington WAS a necked down case, just like the 44-77 Remington cartridge. If I'm not mistaken the Reformando took a .454" slug. Don't take my word for it, but it's NOT the 2 necked cartridges on the left.

Check this thread also:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?139603-HELP-43-spanish

The simplest thing to do is to take a freaking chamber cast. Provide a stop 1/2" in front of the chamber and pour in the Cerrosafe. All you really need is the front half of the chamber and an and inch of the bore. If the chamber is necked it's your 43 Spanish Remington. If not, then you have a rifle chambered for the Reformando (Spanish National cartridge). The bore and groove of the Reformando will reflect the need for a .454" slug.

By this time, if it isn't your rifle, whoever owns it probably owes you a $100 in ******* around with it.

Go to Lowes or Home depot and buy yourself a 3" piece of 3/8" steel rod. Wrap some making tape around it to keep it off the bore. Drive a 45 cal pistol slug half way through the barrel, turn it around and drive it back out, since the barrel may be longer then your 36" steel rod. If it mikes somewhere around .439 /.441" you have the 43 Spanish Remington.

A word to the wise, don't start a new thread every time you come up with something new for the same rifle you're working with as you'll have responses with information scattered all over.

....................Buckshot

[montana_charlie]

A word to the wise, don't start a new thread every time you come up with something new for the same rifle you're working with as you'll have responses with information scattered all over.

....................Buckshot
(... wink! ... )

[leadman]

Buckshot, The cartridges are supposed to be the same, but with the guns I have played with they never seem to be. I suppose age and repairs done around the world had a strong hand in this.
I just load for each gun as it likes it, drives my newly graduated gunsmith buddy crazy! He is stuck on SAAMI specs, which don't apply here.

I recently read someplace (can't remember where) that the 43 Mauser case shoulder was changed slightly when the 71/84 came into being. The groove size was reduced and boolit became a flat nose for the tube magazine. Could be why my Lee dies push the shoulder too far back for my 71.

Ohland, my 71 Mauser has a .457" to .458" groove but can't chamber over a .450" boolit in the chamber neck. Still shoots around 3" at 100 yards with minimal fuss. Have got some 2" groups at times. I use a soft 8 to 10 bhn boolit and 20 grains of 2400.

[Bent Ramrod]

I seem to recall that John Campbell wrote an article in the ASSRA Journal about reaming the neck only of a .43 Spanish chamber so that inside lubricated boolits of e proper size could be loaded into the cases.

You might check with the Archivist for the American Single Shot Rifle Association and see if the article can be found and copied for you. I've just moved and am still in a chaotic state; can't remember where the file of magazines is.

[ohland]

John Campbell ... ASSRA Journal about reaming the neck only of a .43 Spanish chamber so that inside lubricated boolits of e proper size could be loaded into the cases.

Ah, data. Assimilated, the search begins again.

Ooh,


http://www.assra.com/gleanings.htm
"The .43 Mauser; Shooting and Loading the 11mm Mauser" Ross Seyfried, 7 pp. Also two articles on the .405 WCF, in Handloader No. 217.

"Loading the .44-77 BN" Nick Naul, 4 pp. You can't get accuracy with grease-groove bullets in a barrel throated for paper patched bullets, in August Single Shot Exchange.

"The Remington Rolling Block .43 Spanish" R.W. Ballou, 9-pp. how to shoot it with .348 Winchester brass, in September, 2004 issue of The Accurate Rifle.

Haven't come up with John Campbell and 43 Spanish yet.

Logged into ASSRA forums right now. Search didn't get a hit, so I posted and we'll see...

"I remember that at that time Nurmrich made them with either a square cut thread for "all Remington #1 actions" or a Vee thread for the then modern, Italian made, replica actions as sold by Navy Arms. But when I got the barrel, it didn't screw up correctly and snugged up upside down in the action. Took a file to it to correct the problem and had the chamber reamed deeper by a gunsmith. Shot OK for my purposes. A year or so later I found one of Nurmrichs older ads for those barrels in an old American Rifleman magazine dating to the sixties. Seems that earlier they made three different barrel thread configurations, two as stated above and an additional square cut thread style especially made for Remington rollers in 43 Spanish caliber."

[country gent]

One thing to remeber when using a chambering reamer to lengthen or recut an existing chamber is the pilot may not be long enough to be supported in the bore as it normally is. Just something to keep in mind

[ohland]

One thing to remeber when using a chambering reamer to lengthen or recut an existing chamber is the pilot may not be long enough to be supported in the bore as it normally is. Just something to keep in mind

I was mindful of Dave Manson's throating (?) reamers where the rod goes down the bore, and the reamer is screwed on it. Then you draw the rod back up the bore, and the reamer then cuts the throat in concentricity with the bore.

Or... I could specify a longer pilot... just an option... would cost more... hey, wait... If I use a normal reamer that has a removeable pilot, could I attatch the bore rod to it? Might not be able to work the reamer via the bore rod, but the rod should orient the reamer... i hope...

[John in PA]

Have you considered neck turning or neck reaming the brass? Removing .004" all the way around would pretty much get you where you need to be. Just a thought. I'm actually doing that to get a Marlin-Ballard Union Hill #9 in .40-63 Ballard up and running.

[ohland]

Have you considered neck turning or neck reaming the brass? Removing .004" all the way around would pretty much get you where you need to be.

My Starrett Model 220 Multi-Mic is in the mail. When I get something to do accurate measurements, I'll check wall thickness. Question- using a lead boolit and black, how thick can the case wall be at the neck?

Boy, this makes me wonder what the correct collet is for the Forster case trimmer... What the correct plug size is.. wait. I think the correct pilot size for the outside neck turning of the neck would be .439-ish. Is that correct?

UPDATE: Checked on the Forster site: Case trimmer pilots: Available Diameter Range is .198" - .371".

[ohland]

Have you considered neck turning or neck reaming the brass?

Is there a maker of an outside turning tool that is saavy to the older cartidges? Lyman case trimmer collet does handle the 43 Spanish case. But I don't see a .439-ish pilot... The Forster case trimmer stuff does not even go above .370... But how do they do the .50BMG then? The truth is out there.... Tunes in the key of Pb....

UPDATE: Lyman ouside turner: "Cutter blade can be adjusted to any diameter from .195 to .405"

[country gent]

When neck turning I expand on the same mandrell I use to turn the necks. This allows a very nice snug fit of the mandrell. A little lube on the case mouth and it goes nicely. A sharp hand honed cutter helps alot with finish. Annealing before starting also is helpfull with expanding and finish. Neck reaming may be a better option depending on dies on hand run case into die sizing or seating can be used as long as it lightly compresses the case neck, then measure inside dia of case neck with a pin gage or ball gage. subjract amount you want to remove and purchase decimil hand reamer in that size. As to extending the pilot on an existing reamer most are held on with a very fine light e clip and the longer pilot will negate using this. Will be a very pression part to make as to sizes and concentricity. It might be better to forego the pilot set barrel up in lathe indicate dead zero on bore at both ends then a very accurate drill chuck indicate reamer straight and tru in tail stock first. Mount as solid as possible and ream with out pilot in a stable solid set up. Every thing will have to be dead true and right.

[ohland]

Well, looks like Track of the Wolf has a .439 pilot for the Lyman cutter. I know the shell fits into the shell holder.... Now to check on the existence (or not) of a neck turner... I have seen the Lyman outside cutter on fleabay, but I am usually a Forster guy.

[ohland]

Looking through some older posts, Forster will make a custom mandrel for .439 or .446.

http://www.forsterproducts.com/catalog.asp?prodid=700252
"Turns your case neck concentric to its true axis, unlike hand-held neck turners, which are centered only on the pilot. Use after the case neck has been resized and expanded."

So, could I switch out the 43 Spanish Expander out of my Lee 43 Spanish die, put in the EZ X EXP 43 MAUSER #SE2939 http://leeprecision.com/ez-x-exp-43-mauser.html, size the neck only, then turn the expanded case on a .446 (?) pilot?

After turning the neck down, then use .446 with the 43 Spanish die...

[flintlocke]

Ohland, In order to get a .43 Spanish Peabody to work with Bertram .43 and the required .449'' greased slug, I built a rear (chamber) pilot on the lathe with a 15/32 twist drill and opened the neck area of the chamber up to allow .003" expansion of the brass. Perfect job? No, but a little 400 emery cloth cleaned up the sins. I went from 20" groups at 100 yards with the .439 bullet to 3" groups with the .449 and once formed I can thumb seat the bullets without dies. But I am a cheapskate. Good luck, Paul

[ohland]

.43 Spanish Peabody to work with Bertram .43 and the required .449'' greased slug,

Well, my enthusiasm has been tempered a bit. I went through the Forster case trimmer stuff, and found the Original case trimmer collets top out at .605". The opening on the Original collet housing was opened up to .610" a few years ago. The Original uses a cutter shaft of .4902. The outside neck turner uses the .4902 cutter shaft.

The Classic was aimed at Black Powder shooters. It has a .552 cutter shaft, which the outside neck turner won't fit on. The #7 collet is a darn near spot on match for the 43 Spanish, max diameter of .640, compared to the 43 Spanish rim diameter of .633-ish.

Darned if I do, darned if I don't. Sent a message to Forster tech support asking if the Outside neck Turner could be made to fit on the .552" shaft of the Classic. The original has an opening of .610 around the collet, it MIGHT be possible to open it up to .640 but the #7 collet would need to fit into the Original collet housing...
:2 drunk buddies:

[flintlocke]

Ohland, I didn't explain myself well, Instead of buying or renting a reamer, I recut the neck portion of the rifle chamber as per your original query, with the 15/32 drill bit, with a rear pilot to fit the chamber to the rear of the shoulder portion. The groove dimension was so deep on my rifle that fiddling with neck thinning on the brass was out of the question.

[fouronesix]

Never in the 43 Spanish Remington. You're thinking of the 43 Spanish Reformando.

http://www.fototime.com/C92CB92F72C55D2/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/B2ED114FF9356A7/standard.jpg

The 2 cartridges on the left are .43 Remington Spanish, 11mm Remington, or 11.15x 58R Remington Spanish. The necked cartridges are easily seen to be different then the 3 on the right. The 3 loaded cartridges on the right are the Spanish Reformando, and there is NO SHOULDER, as the case were not necked down to .439". The 43 Spanish Remington WAS a necked down case, just like the 44-77 Remington cartridge. If I'm not mistaken the Reformando took a .454" slug. Don't take my word for it, but it's NOT the 2 necked cartridges on the left.

Check this thread also:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?139603-HELP-43-spanish

The simplest thing to do is to take a freaking chamber cast. Provide a stop 1/2" in front of the chamber and pour in the Cerrosafe. All you really need is the front half of the chamber and an and inch of the bore. If the chamber is necked it's your 43 Spanish Remington. If not, then you have a rifle chambered for the Reformando (Spanish National cartridge). The bore and groove of the Reformando will reflect the need for a .454" slug.

By this time, if it isn't your rifle, whoever owns it probably owes you a $100 in ******* around with it.

Go to Lowes or Home depot and buy yourself a 3" piece of 3/8" steel rod. Wrap some making tape around it to keep it off the bore. Drive a 45 cal pistol slug half way through the barrel, turn it around and drive it back out, since the barrel may be longer then your 36" steel rod. If it mikes somewhere around .439 /.441" you have the 43 Spanish Remington.

A word to the wise, don't start a new thread every time you come up with something new for the same rifle you're working with as you'll have responses with information scattered all over.

....................Buckshot

Dittos about the multiple threads with disorganized bits of same subject.

Yes, the original was the "Reformado" (about 1867) and it had the brass jacketed bullets that are listed at nominal .454" dia vs the later "Remington" version with bullets listed at nominal .439" dia.

Here's some more original, various 43 Span (Remington and Reformado cartridges). Interesting that the second from the right has such a pronounced shoulder but is certainly a "Reformado" round.

[ohland]

I recut the neck portion of the rifle chamber as per your original query, with the 15/32 drill bit, with a rear pilot to fit the chamber to the rear of the shoulder portion.

Darg... Well, could cut a "stub" (think of a low brass shotgun shell), with a short head diameter body, a .630-ish rim (the head diameter is the crucial dimension), drill this stub to pass the 15/32 drill. Jobber length, case is 2.25" long IIRC. Depth collar on the drill. Adjust drill depth to chamber.

Need to cast the chamber successfully...

[EDG]

I once opened the chamber of a .40-2.5 Sharps Straight (.40-70 SS) for a friend about 30 years ago.
He wanted to shoot grease groove bullets and his groove diameter was about .408.
He tried turning RWS 9.3X74R brass to .003 wall thickness on the neck. The necks were like foil and crushed with any sort of seating force.

His rifle was an original Remington Hepburn with a paper patch chamber. He removed the barrel.
We had a new LeBlond Regal in the shop and he had a tool maker grind a long skinny boring bar with about 2.75" reach.

The barrel was dialed in and I set the tool point to the end of the chamber then pulled it out and dialed in .005 and made the pass.
We measure the results. He wanted another .005. I made a .005 pass and it only cut .004.
I polished the front .750 of the chamber which is all that was touched by the boring bar.

This was an easy job but it is not very tolerant of a mistake. There is no way to replace an original barrel.

He reassembled the rifle and it shot great with grease groove bullets.

[marlinman93]

I haven't kept up on modern chamberings, so was surprised to see that the modern .44-77 SBN is now set up to ream the chamber for a .439 bullet size! Since the .44-77SBN and .43 Spanish rimmed (11.15x58R) are almost identical cartridges, except for the bullet diameter, it sounds like they've simply started reaming chambers to .43 Spanish, and calling them .44-77SBN?
I'm getting ready to ream a chamber in an original #1 Rolling Block Sporting Rifle, which is presently .44 Long CF, which also has a .439" bullet/bore. I want it to be a bit more cartridge, but retain the nice .439" bore it has now. I planned to have someone ream it to .43 Spanish, but if modern reamers for .44-77SBN are basically .43 Spanish, then I guess I'll have another .44-77SBN to go with my other Rolling Block in that caliber, except with a smaller bore!

[Don McDowell]

Actually marlinman most modern 44-77's take a 447/8 bullet, the bore diameters run right at 436/438, depending on who built the barrel. A lot of the 44/77 shooters indulging in paper patch , patch to a diameter at .436 or just under.

[skeettx]

OK, here is an OLD TIME trick.

Shorten the neck of the brass by 1/4 inch
Seat the .446 diameter bullet to normal length
See if the cartridge will chamber
Has worked in the past.

Do just one case at the start to insure the process works
in your particular rifle.

Mike

p.s. kinda like shooting a 38 Special in a 357 Mag chamber
Will not affect headspace

[ohland]

OK, here is an OLD TIME trick.

Shorten the neck of the brass by 1/4 inch
Seat the .446 diameter bullet to normal length
See if the cartridge will chamber
Has worked in the past


I dimly remember the old retrobate saying the loaded case would not go in the last 1/4 inch or so.

OR left for fishing today, back Tuesday... Time to man up, pull the scope off, drop the buttstock, drop the block and hammer, and try to do a Cerrosafe cast again... This time NOT waiting 30 minutes to tap the casting out...

[marlinman93]

Actually marlinman most modern 44-77's take a 447/8 bullet, the bore diameters run right at 436/438, depending on who built the barrel. A lot of the 44/77 shooters indulging in paper patch , patch to a diameter at .436 or just under.

My Rolling Block is an original Sporting Rifle from the 1870's Don, so it obviously is different than what's happening today. But since I've been scratching my head on what to do with the recent #1 Sporter, and it's useless .44 Long CF chambering; it might be a good way to go. I was planning on the .43 Spanish, but I guess it depends on what reamer the gunsmith has.

[marlinman93]

try to do a Cerrosafe cast again... This time NOT waiting 30 minutes to tap the casting out...

I've had better luck waiting on Cerrosafe to tap the casting out. It shrinks as it cools, so if it comes out tough while cold, it wont get easier if it's hot. Might be the chamber has a imperfection that's locking up the Cerrosafe?

[ohland]

It shrinks as it cools, so if it comes out tough while cold, it wont get easier if it's hot.

OK, I need to take a knee here. At 30 minutes, it is right at dimension. Above 30 minutes, it exceeds the dimensions by a slight percent.

This certainly confuses the bejeebers outta me cuz what I think I'm reading tells me that leaving it in overnight would have it drop out. A little extreme, but once the Cerrosafe frosts over (like the sprue puddle after a pour) it is fair game.

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?73208-CerroSafe-Oddities
Sure sounds like my experience. OP is of the opinion that 15 minutes is too long

http://www.texas-mac.com/Case_Lengths_Chamber_Casts_and_Impact_Impression.h tml

Here are the actual measured expansion factors from Texas-Mac.
http://www.texas-mac.com/images/Table_2_Correct_Expansion_Factors.jpg

" Wait approximately 10 minutes for the cast to solidify and shrink to push it
out of the chamber. The maximum shrinkage time is 20 to 30 minutes after which
it will start to enlarge. Waiting any longer and the chances increase that the cast
will not come out as it further enlarges."

Bolton 160/190 (formerly Cerrosafe) 160-190 F

[Don McDowell]

My Rolling Block is an original Sporting Rifle from the 1870's Don, so it obviously is different than what's happening today. But since I've been scratching my head on what to do with the recent #1 Sporter, and it's useless .44 Long CF chambering; it might be a good way to go. I was planning on the .43 Spanish, but I guess it depends on what reamer the gunsmith has.

I think those old bores were all over the place, with some actually running as much a 450 or so. I have a bullet pulled from an original sharps 44-77 creedmoor round, and without the paper it's diameter is 438. I also have a mould copied from an original sharps bullet that is dual diameter, with the base being .435 and it has worked ok in a couple of different 44-77's that I have sent to the owners.
If I as going to screw with that barrel, I would have a chamber reamer made for it's measurements, unless it's measurements are very close to someones stock reamer.

[Artpro]

Hi all. A little late, but I found Campbell's. article, "Life with the 43 Spanish" in the April 2002 issue of"The Accruate Rifle". Makes a good read and I'm following up on it.

[skeettx]

Did you ever get a cartridge to chamber and fire?
Wow your last post on this was 6 1/2 YEARS ago and
according to your profile, you have a recorded

Last Activity 09-24-2015 11:28 AM

Sorry
Mike

[John Taylor]

This bore is sparkling.... If anyone sleeved it the workmanship is awesome.
Well, when my .439 H&I arrives, the old retrobate will finish loading it with black. I bought 20 Captech (nee Jameson Brass) .43 Spanish cases from Buffalo Arms.

Another battle to fight. But... it does sit wrong that I have a .445 groove but the chamber and brass will only allow .439 and a skosh. All that needs to happen is about .003 wider on each side and those gorgeous RCBS 44-370-FN will chamber... A proper flat base boolit, none of this heretical "bevel base" blasphemy... Burn them all. We must strengthen the strain.

You can get a neck and throat reamer. I had one made when a customer wanted to shoot .381 diameter bullets in his old 38-55.