Miserable at work.

[jcren]

I don't intend to whine, but I suspect there are others here in simular circumstance that may have some valuable advice. I have worked for the same company for 9 years, and today received an ultimatum that I can not meet. I am a highly intelegent individual who was stupid enough to drop a full ride to OSU engineering to marry my first ex-wife. I excell at problem solving and prefer to make the solution with my own two hands than pass orders, but no one is interested in employing a college drop out. How do I handle being tremendously undervalued (I have been a manager and realize everyone thinks they are worth more than they are)? How do I get the attention of the right employer? Just needed to vent where "others" won't happen to see, and hope for some life wisdom.

[Driver man]

"I excell at problem solving and prefer to make the solution with my own two hands than pass orders, but no one is interested in employing a college drop out"
If you believe that to be true I suggest you finish college. Perhaps you could acquire , study for some qualifications that employers value.

[Artful]

Networking with the people who work where you want to transition to would be the first step.

[smokeywolf]

Due to NAFTA (thanks to Reagan, Bush and Clinton) and the fed government being bought off by big business to insure that Washington works for their best interests and not those of working class America, many, it not most, middle class American jobs have been exported to 3rd world countries. The result is our labor market is flooded to the point that even with a bachelor's degree, your lucky if Home Depot will consider you for part time work over the competing college kids.

There used to be some colleges that would consider work experience as credits toward your degree. I suggest you look into that. Assuming you're not over 50, the combination of work experience and a bachelors degree will give you a chance to realistically compete for the comparatively few jobs out there.

[jonp]

I don't intend to whine, but I suspect there are others here in simular circumstance that may have some valuable advice. I have worked for the same company for 9 years, and today received an ultimatum that I can not meet. I am a highly intelegent individual who was stupid enough to drop a full ride to OSU engineering to marry my first ex-wife. I excell at problem solving and prefer to make the solution with my own two hands than pass orders, but no one is interested in employing a college drop out. How do I handle being tremendously undervalued (I have been a manager and realize everyone thinks they are worth more than they are)? How do I get the attention of the right employer? Just needed to vent where "others" won't happen to see, and hope for some life wisdom.

Employers are getting to the point that they think a piece of paper instantly qualifies a person for any job regardless of experience. 9yrs is long enough to finish college nights and weekends. It might not have been convenient or financially feasible up to this point but it sounds to me like something that you need to get done. There are many good online universities and local colleges, community colleges that will work with you to get you where you want to go.

Of course, a college degree will not solve every problem or make you instantly upper management material and you may find yourself in my shoes with an office manager that has no experience in my field in charge because of a degree and the disaster we are putting up with but it will make it much easier to move to a different job.

[1johnlb]

1st PRAY

[Teddy (punchie)]

First look for a foundation, God? Next are you reaching for what you think will make you happy or will it? You sound dishearted is why I started off this way. I do what I can every day and see idiots every where making twice to three times more then me. Most are living a dream. I also feel they are part of the pyramid of cards we have for economics. I have learned many skills over my life and can be a know it all, but if it come down to it, best person to have on you side. Not too much I can not do or find an answer too. It hard and I understand and going to school is yes what they want, they are all taught to be that way, as was explained in other posts. Not looking for skilled, until there company or project is in trouble.

God Bless !! Teddy

[captaint]

Artful mentioned this earlier. Networking. It's ALL about the people you know and have worked with - hopefully people at other companies. People that know what your capabilities are. Start making the contacts. Get to work. It's your future.

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree with the others. You need to ask God for help and you need to sign back up for school. Doing that would show your bosses that you have real interest In moving up and not just for the extra pay.

[Houndog]

You didn't say what you do but maybe it's time to start your own business! Start a part time business on the side and grow it into full time.

[starnbar]

Something I learned if you want to work for someone else then find a job you really like to do. If you just want to make a ton of money then there are some contractors who do work in Iraq or Afghanistan.

[rondog]

I feel your frustration. I never went to college, but I have 26 years of experience working in a specialized area of Telecommunications. Got laid off 3 years ago, think I can get back in? Not much interest in hiring a 59 y.o. it seems. They can't SAY that of course, but they can sure DO it.

[Handloader109]

OK, being a college dropout isn't the problem. The problem is not knowing what you want to do and doing it. Now here is what I mean. From just what I hear, you are either making assumptions that you are really working hard, and,/or you work for a company that has managers that cannot look past the degree thing. I manage a location that is one of 70 odd locations scattered across the country. I have over 40 employees and I try to promote from within. We develop our staff and those individuals that perform above the average tend to move up. That includes attitude and what we see as desire coupled with ability. We always have things to do that can allow an individual to stand out from the other staff. But key is it takes work and just doing your job well is not enough.... That said, look around and find a career that you can become passionate about and do whatever it takes to get that job. It took me a long time to get to this company and determine that this fit me. And every day isn't perfect, there are always bumps and holes in the road.
I do promote without degree, my best employee is a 5 yr young woman that I just promoted last year to one of my assistant manager positions. She is working on a degree, will help her get to my position, but it isn't a hard requirement. The difference in her and the prior is a desire to do everything to such a high level of performance.... Oh and a true good manager, I Love rewarding hard work and determination.

[garym1a2]

If you are really good at engineerng go back and get the engineering degree. If you are so-so than don't. A good engineer is find a good job. A lousy engineer will have to work at it. But, you need to be very positive when looking and interviewing for a job. I have interviewed many people that look good on paper and talk themselves out of ever being hired.

I don't intend to whine, but I suspect there are others here in simular circumstance that may have some valuable advice. I have worked for the same company for 9 years, and today received an ultimatum that I can not meet. I am a highly intelegent individual who was stupid enough to drop a full ride to OSU engineering to marry my first ex-wife. I excell at problem solving and prefer to make the solution with my own two hands than pass orders, but no one is interested in employing a college drop out. How do I handle being tremendously undervalued (I have been a manager and realize everyone thinks they are worth more than they are)? How do I get the attention of the right employer? Just needed to vent where "others" won't happen to see, and hope for some life wisdom.

[Alexn20]

College is overrated. I see many over qualified people get turned away because they lack hands on experience OR the hiring manager is worried the employee will not stay long term or be happy with the job.

I see people relying on the college degree to fix all their employment problems which ends up bankrupting them instead.

[jakharath]

From a hiring manager perspective at my place of employment we us a matrix for hiring employees. If you don't have the right college degree for job X then you will not make it onto the matrix and will not be considered for the job. The degree gets your foot into the door. Experience will help you get the rest of the way in.

The other path to employment is knowing the right person/people. "It's not what you know, it's who you know."

Good luck and don't lose faith.

[WILCO]

Networking with the people who work where you want to transition to would be the first step.


PRAY


start your own business!


you need to be very positive when looking and interviewing for a job. I have interviewed many people that look good on paper and talk themselves out of ever being hired.



Top four answers in my book. http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/eating/hamburger-waving-hello-smiley-emoticon.gif

[youngmman]

Employers are getting to the point that they think a piece of paper instantly qualifies a person for any job regardless of experience. 9yrs is long enough to finish college nights and weekends. It might not have been convenient or financially feasible up to this point but it sounds to me like something that you need to get done. There are many good online universities and local colleges, community colleges that will work with you to get you where you want to go.

Of course, a college degree will not solve every problem or make you instantly upper management material and you may find yourself in my shoes with an office manager that has no experience in my field in charge because of a degree and the disaster we are putting up with but it will make it much easier to move to a different job.

By all means finish the degree. It doesn't matter how old you are, the experience with the degree adds qualities any employer will value and be sure to keep good relations with the people you work with now because these things get around and can inhibit your ability to get another job. No employer wants someone who can't "get along" with other employees.
Finishing the degree is a miserable journey if you have to work at the same time but it's worth it. I'm not blowing smoke. It took me seven years to finish my degree at USC business school while working full time but it has been worth it in spades. I also found my employer at the time cut me a lot of slack because I was diligently working on the degree. It took me seven years because I wouldn't borrow money to pay for it. I paid cash for every class.
Good luck to you whatever course you choose.

[country gent]

When interviewing be positive Know what you want and also know your strong points. Never say I dont know that. The proper answer is I can learn that. Last time I looked for work ( I was working and looking for a diffrent job) I interviewed at a shop that specilized in machine rebuilding. The man doing the interview had a real attitude and issues. After 5-10 mins of this I looked at him and told him I have a job now I donthave to have another the same and got up and walked out. He caught me at the truck getting in asking me to come back and we would start over. At the time I specialized in Hand fittting ( scraping flowering ect ect.) I found out they were looking for a skilled person who would work and also train high school kids. Seen what it was going to be. Get a couple kids at lower wages going then your gone. Know your skills and abilities push them and the fact you are willing to learn new skills. Most of all Pay attention to what goes on during interviews. Not only are they interviewing you but you are interviewing them. Its a two wau process. You need to get out and make contacts find what you want. Depending on what you want to do a colledge degree might be necessary, or experience may be the rule.

[ascast]

so. what was the ultimatum? maybe you should buy time and do your level best to comply. Having a job; revenue stream is paramount. Losing that will make a lot more issues pop up. Are you willing to relocate? Is there a vibrant economy and job market where you are? Net working is far more important than degrees. You may need a degree at some point, but you will be hired by people. good luck

[MUSTANG]

As background:

1. Completed high school 1 year early.
2. Completed 2 semesters of College then enlisted in USMC.
3. When I completed my Bachelor's Degree I had accumulated 360 credit hours (120 hours usually required - travel, different universities, and some changes in studies accounted for the large number of credit hours.) These were through correspondence courses and at night/weekend courses.
4. Later in life I completed a Masters Degree, similar template to #3.


Recommendation:

1. Get your degree. In today's world HR departments and "Management" are looking for a piece of paper, not performance. Performance comes into play when performance assessments for a similar block of personnel occurs. Performance is only one factor considered for compensation, job assignments, and promotion actions. Other factors include balancing gender, minority, and other "Governmental" requirements levied upon today's businesses. Also do not discount "The Like Ability Factor", nepotism, "Just Like Me Factor", and "Good ole Boy/Girl" factor based on Schools attended, Sports Played, etc....

2. Determine what it takes to succeed in your chosen profession to punch the right tickets (Degrees/continuing education/associations/etc..) and execute those requirements, otherwise your unlikely to be the unique/single square peg that gets driven into the round hole.

3. Find a "Home"; either in a portion of the company or another company. By this I mean a place where you can go to work and not be miserable for the next few years as you "Punch the Right Tickets".

4. Prepare yourself with education, knowledge, and skills. Be ready for opportunity:

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
Thomas A. Edison (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_a_edison.html)


Not as a means of boosting my ego, but as a means of showing a different way I'll use some personal vignette's.Both in the Corps and in my 2nd career as a Project Manager working for a prime contractor to a Federal Department, I was never a "popular person" selected for the supposed "Good Jobs" and "Leadership Development Jobs". I established a reputation for effective situational awareness, insightful assessment of conditions as they are - not as was desired, and the ability to "Get the Job Done" despite the difficulties. For this I was rewarded (both in the Corps and as a Project Manager) with challenges others avoided (career risky) or assignments others had been given that turned to ****. Through advance preparation, sound assessment, good planning and execution, and dogged determination I never failed in any challenge.

You must decide what type of environment you wish to work in and what defines success for you personally, not others definition of success. Then set a plan to prepare to be able to establish yourself in that environment. What makes you happy (contented is a better word) should be your goal, but contentment is driven from within - not from without. I have been far happier in the mud with fellow Marines in the past, than in the luxury I found myself on several occasions when assigned to duties working with senior US politicians and foreign dignitaries. Same applies to long days in the field and office recovering "Failed Projects", compared to being in Senior Management meetings and "Hob-Nob" events.

Change your perspective and prepare to change your environment to one you can enjoy is my recommendation. Happiness (contentment) is in your hands, not others.

[snowwolfe]

When I used to be a manager in the Air Force we looked for people who were constantly trying to improve themselves.
So please answer this question, in the last nine years how many college classes have you completed via night school or online?
No, a college degree is not the answer for everyone. But in a lot of professions it is required to get your foot in the door. I know a lot of people with out degrees who are smarter than people who have degrees but that doesn't matter. Employers are looking for people who are educated. Both my wife and I earned all our college at night and she went further than I and in the course of 20 years completed her Masters degree, all via night classes.

So, what have you done to prove to your employer you are trying to improve yourself? And don't say you don't have the time because there are thousands of people in your situation who do.

[lavenatti]

Get the degree. I waited until I was in my thirty's to finish my engineering degree.

- People instantly took me more seriously.
- I doubled my salary that year.
- There are lot's of engineering jobs out there, look on some job search engines. Check salary.com also.

That piece of paper is worth money. I've made almost a million dollars more (just in salary) since I've gotten it than I would have otherwise.

[Muskyhunter1]

Lots of really great advice here.

We all go thru tough times in our employment careers. When I have experience times like what you are going thru, I look at what is REALLY important in my life. For me it is family, friends, hobbies, camp, etc. If my employer doesn't seem to care about me, I do my job but pull back and really focus my energy elsewhere with what is truly important.

Maybe even looking elsewhere for another job. God helps those who help themselves. I wouldn't say anything to your employer just do it. I have seen where it has come back to them and may work to your benefit. If they have any value in you - they will act. If they don't value you, you were on the right track. Loyalty goes both ways.

The Lord works in mysterious ways. Over time things change for the better and they will for you too.

Good luck my friend.

[jcren]

Thanks guys for all the advice and support. I have stuck with this job as long as I have because it is 8-5 and they let me off for family stuff any time I need it (of course I don't abuse the privilege) but with an IQ in the mid 140's and a 32 act score, fixing and selling copiers is mind numbing, and with the family owned company I work for, I have no chance of advancement since I am not family. I just got reamed by the owner's 26 year old son who has been to rehab at least 4 times, and married 3 times since I have worked for them. Damn it man!

[bearcove]

All that's nice, BUT you have to have a skill someone needs, I weld pipe cause it pays about the same as my kids pediatrician makes. Not because its fun or I'm not smart enough to be an engineer. I'm in demand and well paid, work outside come and go as I please. Don't say yes sir to no one unless I want to. I'm a free man.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Don't be afraid to turn the ultimatum around on them.
Changing jobs (or threatening to) is the fastest way to make more money.
If you end up leaving...it's almost always a good thing.
Look for work with small companies as opposed to large ones.
yeah, when it's family owned, like you mention, the 2nd and 3rd generation are rarely good to work for.

Tons of jobs around here. Minnesota's current unemployment rate is now down to 3.7% which is basically full employment, when you figure the bottom 4% of employable adults aren't really employable.

The Company I work for (part time-my choice), recently hired a senior electrical engineer, a entry level electrical engineer, two mechanical engineers, a elec. tech. (like myself), several experienced welders and a couple general labor positions (basically entry level-work your way up). This is a smallish company with about 60 employees, family owned, they are going gangbusters.

Good Luck,
Jon

[Char-Gar]

I have read lots of resumes that stated the people had "excellent problem solving skill" and "excellent people skills". That is about the point I stop reading, as that tells me people don't have any serious educational background or marketable skills. Problems solvers and people persons are a dime a dozen.

The folks that don't value education and/or training are those that don't have either. These qualifications will open doors for you, but once inside, it is job performance that will keep you there and on your way up.

If you don't want to be stuck in a dead end job, where you are treated like a slave and undervalued there are only two options.

1. Get an education
2. Start your own business

It is a hard cruel world and these are the rules, like them or not. Suck it up cupcake and either go back to school or stop whining.

[Char-Gar]

Don't be afraid to turn the ultimatum around on them.
Changing jobs (or threatening to) is the fastest way to make more money.
If you end up leaving...it's almost always a good thing.
Look for work with small companies as opposed to large ones.
yeah, when it's family owned, like you mention, the 2nd and 3rd generation are rarely good to work for.

Tons of jobs around here. Minnesota's current unemployment rate is now down to 3.7% which is basically full employment, when you figure the bottom 4% of employable adults aren't really employable.

The Company I work for (part time-my choice), recently hired a senior electrical engineer, a entry level electrical engineer, two mechanical engineers, a elec. tech. (like myself), several experienced welders and a couple general labor positions (basically entry level-work your way up). This is a smallish company with about 60 employees, family owned, they are going gangbusters.

Good Luck,
Jon

A knowledgeable manager/employer/boss will never be bullied with an "if you don't, I will quit". The very second you allow somebody to get by with that, then you will work for them and not the other way around, as they are now in the drivers seat.

I have had several people try that and I have called their bluff every time. There is not anybody that can't be replaced or done without.

[captain-03]

Artful mentioned this earlier. Networking. It's ALL about the people you know and have worked with -\

The real life answer -- it is not who you know BUT who knows you!! Network ...... join organizations, chat groups, business clubs/chapters, etc.

[dtknowles]

\

The real life answer -- it is not who you know BUT who knows you!! Network ...... join organizations, chat groups, business clubs/chapters, etc.


It is who would put their reputation on the line to give you a recommendation.

Tim

[ol skool]

...fixing and selling copiers is mind numbing, and with the family owned company I work for, I have no chance of advancement since I am not family...

Sounds dead end. Make sure you have something GOOD lined up before you gracefully and thankfully let them know your moving on.

Education is important but relative, relative to what your end goals are. A skill that is worth it's weight in raises in any field is supervision. Doing it all yourself is great, shows your competent at your skill. That's default for everyone, but leading people is an art. But being able to get a half dozen or dozen others to become competent and insure their quality is a different tiger all together than doing it all your self.

Or start your own business in the same field and squash your old employer. 8-5, really...?

[Handloader109]

I'd NEVER say go in and give your manager an ultimatum, if you did that to me, I'd laugh in your face and tell you to head on our the door. My last assistant mgr pushed hard on money, sorry we have guidelines for raises, and he didn't qualify. Again find something that you like to do and go do it. You don't enjoy your current job, you need to change it.

[MaryB]

I landed the casino job repairing electronics because of my reputation as a problem solver. So do not discount it! My boss would toss a project in my lap and say fix it and make it better than when it left the factory. Then he left me alone to do just that!

[FISH4BUGS]

This is exactly why I worked for myself for 33 years. Got out of college and worked for the same place I worked part time for while in college, then quit over policy disagreements, (family business and I wasn't family) then got fired from the next job (I pissed off a long time original founding employee by asking them to do their job), then got laid off from the one after that.
Hung out my shingle in 1982 and never looked back.
No sir - go to work for yoursef.

[Char-Gar]

Thanks guys for all the advice and support. I have stuck with this job as long as I have because it is 8-5 and they let me off for family stuff any time I need it (of course I don't abuse the privilege) but with an IQ in the mid 140's and a 32 act score, fixing and selling copiers is mind numbing, and with the family owned company I work for, I have no chance of advancement since I am not family. I just got reamed by the owner's 26 year old son who has been to rehab at least 4 times, and married 3 times since I have worked for them. Damn it man!

I am not as hard and mean as I may sound as I spent many years trying to help people with their problems in life. One approach is to hold their hand and tell them.."now, now, poor thing, I feel your pain". Another approach is to look them in the eye and in as direct way as possible lay it out for them. I have found the later way will produce a positive change more often than the former way.

Your job issues, are a direct consequence of poor choices you have made. You are not a victim of anybody but yourself.

1. You chose to drop out of college and get married. That was an immature and foolish choice.

2. You chose to work in an 8-5 low skill job because you only wanted to work 8 - 5. Valued workers are those who don't watch the clock and are willing to put the time and energy into their work to make more money for their employee. Those kinds of folks are not undervalued. You on the other hand are just a replaceable cog in a wheel, doing the minimum and getting the minimum of respect back. What did you expect when you chose a job where you only did the basic stuff to get a check.

People who are successful in life are the ones who are committed to a goal, disciplined and hard working. Having a high IQ and a big SAT score doesn't mean squat if you are not using that intelligence. A 450 HP turbo Mercedes is not more valuable than a smart car if the driver is content to putt-putt down the road at 25 miles and hour.

If you want a better work life and more respect, then you need to make the choices that will produce those goals. Thus far you have not. Your employer accords you the value and respect that you have earned by choices you have made.

It is said the definition of insanity, is to keep doing the same thing, and expect different results. If you want a better life, then make other and better choices.

[white eagle]

Each man is in charge of their own destiny
make your choices and live with them or adjust them
you get what you give and that is a fact

[Love Life]

Join the suck and see the world.

[AggieEE]

A lot of good advice here. If the job really is intolerable, suck it up for a long as you can while looking for another job. Some advice my mom gave me "it's easier to find a job when you have a job." Because I can also work with my hands in addition to being a engineer I know about not fitting into a "box" and it confuses the people doing the interviewing. Don't burn any bridges unless you know for sure you are not going to be crossing that bridge or having to retreat across it.

[jmort]

"it's easier to find a job when you have a job."

That is a Universal Truth

[sundog]

Suck it up and get a degree, Mister. Plenty of us have done it while working and raising a family. I did it while I was still wearing the uniform. Three a.m. in a jump seat on a C-130 on a deployment to somewhere, and what am I doing? Face in a college text book! All depends on how badly you want it. Having a support structure (family, employer, church) certainly helps. Be willing to give up something while enroute, time will become a premium.

btw, time is one of the resources of business management. Become a good time manager (transferable skill) and you may very well be become a good manager of the other resources.

[exile]

I thought long and hard about replying to this thread, but here goes nothing:

Having worked as a vocational counselor in the past, I would say this:

1. Never quit the job you have until you have another one lined up;

2. Never give an employer an ultimatum; in this economy there are five hundred guys who want your job;

3. The number one thing an employer is looking for is someone who can get along with co-workers and supervisors on the job; I don't care who you are, what your education is, or what you know, you CAN be replaced.

4. The most talented guys I know HAVE engineering degrees, picked a fight with their employer, and are now, still, unemployed.

5. 99 percent of the businesses started in this country, fail, within the first year.

6. We now live in a service-driven (as opposed to manufacturing) economy. Most of those service jobs are jobs that are managed by women and appeal to women. In other words, being a man in today's workforce is very difficult.

7. I am not good at networking, etc.,. The only way I ever got a better job was to get more education. That worked for me because I was young, single, had lots of family support, took jobs no one else wanted, etc.,. That may not be the case for you.

8. Having been a Christian for over thirty years, I can say, yes, pray. Along with that is the idea that what you think is best for you (a better job) May not be what God thinks is best for you (e.g., character building through trouble at work, unemployment, illness, etc.,).

9. It is the rare individual who can find employment today through networking, starting a business, etc.,. Most of us just have to bite the bullet and work for someone else.

10. Whatever course you decide on, losing a job you have had for nine years will always come back to haunt you!

11' Most of the guys I know who have lost jobs and never made it back in the workforce are very highly educated, highly intelligent, long-term, good employees who got laid off for simple reasons, as long- term employees their pension/medical benefits were a drain on company profits. They were replaced by young, recent college graduates who did not receive the same benefits package they had. The fact is, your employer may be trying to force you out for the same reason.

12. All of the above advice is free, and may be worth exactly what you paid for it, nothing. I pray God's grace for your situation.

exile

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Don't be afraid to turn the ultimatum around on them.
...snip


A knowledgeable manager/employer/boss will never be bullied with an "if you don't, I will quit". The very second you allow somebody to get by with that, then you will work for them and not the other way around, as they are now in the drivers seat.

I have had several people try that and I have called their bluff every time. There is not anybody that can't be replaced or done without.
Char-Gar,
Ultimatum is probably the wrong word to use in my reply to the OP, but it is the gist of what I was recommending.

The OP mentioned he had trouble with the Owners kid, depending on exactly what that was, and if it were severe enough, If I were him, I would go right to the owner and give my 2 week notice.

The way the OP worded his first post, it made it seem like he is a valuable employee. Assuming business isn't slow, the Owner isn't going to want to replace a valuable employee, if he doesn't have to. Giving 2 weeks notice has always opened the door to conversation about what my problem was with my job, the 5 times I have done it (different employers each time). Each time, I learned I was a valuable employee and was asked what it would take for me to stay an employee. I won't go into a lot of details here, but two different times, I stayed with a raise of around $5 (per hour), and one time I stayed with only the promise of better working conditions, I didn't ask for more money that time, as I felt I was making more than I was worth.

Now, if the OP isn't considered a valuable employee by his employer .... no doubt, they'll be glad to see him leave. He is then freed up to find a better job with better pay.

======

To those who say you should have another job lined up, before you 'give notice', ...I say you should NEVER put yourself into a situation where you will suffer if you don't have employment, 'cuz it can happen anytime for any reason...many times it's out of your control.

======

To the OP, Good Luck
Jon

[Char-Gar]

Jon..When I read the OP, I came away with the feeling the poster thought he was a great employee, but undervalued by the bosses. In other words, the employer didn't share the employees assessment of his value.

Never quit a job in a snit. That is the best way I know of to get a bad recommendation when a potential new employer checks references.

There is still room in America for those folks who want to "go it alone" and start up their own business. You have to know what your are doing, have the right contacts and enough resources to see you through until you start to make a profit, which could be a couple of years. Good cases in point are my two children.

The daughter has a BS, MS and P.hd in Industrial and Organizational Psychology. Her specialty is management and leadership training. After ten years with a major American Corporation she has started up her own consulting business in the field and is doing well.

The son has a BS and MS in Petroleum Geology. After eight years with a major oil company he has started up his own oil company. He has located the oil, got the lease, raised the several million dollars needed from investors, contracted with a drilling company and in two weeks will be drilling his first well in Frio County Texas.

Most business go belly up because folks don't have the resources to pay the bills while the business gains traction. If you need to support yourself with profits from a start up from the get go, you probably won't make it. To many folks leap before they look and don't realize the challenges involved in a start up. But for those that do, have the education and experience in the field, and the resources to do it right without needing a profit up front. there is still opportunity aplenty in this country.

The bottom line is, if a fellow doesn't want to get stuck in a dead end job, don't make the choices that force you to take a dead end job in the first place. Stay in school, work hard and dream big!

[bearcove]

4. The most talented guys I know HAVE engineering degrees, picked a fight with their employer, and are now, still, unemployed.

This is why I have chosen to be SKILLED.

I come and go as I please and the boss can kiss my hind end and Ill tell him just that and he will be happy to have back when they need me again

I haven't done a resume in 15 yrs just show my certs. Just off job $3600 gross a wk. Take your degree and references and shove them! LOL! Been there don't do that!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

snip...
Never quit a job in a snit. That is the best way I know of to get a bad recommendation when a potential new employer checks references.
...snip
Thanks to the lawyers, there is no longer such a thing as a "bad recommendation", only a good recommendation or a non-recommendation.
...unless the former boss is your Ex-wife's Dad :holysheep

:bigsmyl2: :bigsmyl2: :bigsmyl2:

[pmer]

I can see the family businesses in two ways. In one way if you don't have the right last name it can be tough to advance. Hopefully you are aware of that going into the company or shortly after so you can put your hopes in the correct place. But on the other hand I see a multi generational income stream for the involved families which is pretty neat IMO. I can appreciate that even though I'm just a cogg. When the clock says go home I don't have to take any of it with me and I'm done till I'm supposed to report back. But on the other hand I'm not doing as much for my family in providing an opportunity for getting them into a lasting income stream if they choose to take it.

I think the OP is having a little trouble with envy by saying how smart he is and how dumb they are. Maybe has a couple road blocks that he put up himself that he needs to work through. He is right he needs to make a change and do something to better his situation. I would start by not trying to hold anything against his employer and looking on the inside.

[Char-Gar]

Thanks to the lawyers, there is no longer such a thing as a "bad recommendation", only a good recommendation or a non-recommendation.
...unless the former boss is your Ex-wife's Dad :holysheep



:bigsmyl2: :bigsmyl2: :bigsmyl2:

That is true up to a point. Nobody wants to put a bad recommendation in writing. However when you don't receive a recommendation, that sets red flags waving. You can call the person on the phone and ask the simple question, "would you hire this person again?". The answer to that, while it may reflect on the former employee, is asking about the possible future actions of the person on the phone. I have yet to have a person that refused to answer this question over the phone.

[wv109323]

I have not read all the posts but will throw in my .02 cents.
If you have worked for 9 years have you received promotions or honest salary increases?
If the project is undo able,who was the manager that gave it to you? Is he/she reasonable in expectations?
Remember the reward for jumping through hoops and accomplishing the impossible is more of the same. Or the reward for good work is more work.
If your job does not have a bright future I would plan accordingly.
If you excel and "make money for the company" a lot of management will keep you where you are. Why promote you,find a replacement, retrain a new employee if you will do more than your fair share? Besides top level management will get their bonuses while the good hard working employees earn the money for the company.
I encourage you to get your degree. Advancement is gained more rapidly by changing jobs than staying with one company. After all there will be more openings in your field of work with other companies than just your company. Don't be afraid to change jobs.

[cowboybart]

I don't know where the OP is in this but I see 2 ways out.
1) Start your own business - worked for me 12 yrs ago. Yes I had low debt, and yes I struggled and even stopped operating it for several years while I was somebody else's employee.

2)Learn a skill. Rather than college, a skill will keep you employed. If you can weld, machine or drive a truck, you will never be involuntarily unemployed.

[Kent Fowler]

I don't know where the OP is in this but I see 2 ways out.
1) Start your own business - worked for me 12 yrs ago. Yes I had low debt, and yes I struggled and even stopped operating it for several years while I was somebody else's employee.

2)Learn a skill. Rather than college, a skill will keep you employed. If you can weld, machine or drive a truck, you will never be involuntarily unemployed.

Been teaching my SIL , who has an engineering degree from West Point and a masters from University of Texas, how to weld. I keep telling him if the engineering gig doesn't pan out, he can always put beans on the table with a skill. :-) Joking aside, a case in point of what one can accomplish was my dad, who went from teaching high school to an engineering job(balancing the B-36 mockup) at Consolidated Aircraft during the war. He went to welding school afterwards and became a master welder, then decided welding pipe in the West Texas sun wasn't for him and decided to go to dental school at U.T. in Houston and became a dentist. The opportunities are there, you just have to take advantage of them.

[blixen01]

If you believe that to be true I suggest you finish college. Perhaps you could acquire , study for some qualifications that employers value.

I agree on the education part, though I don't think a degree is as crucial as it used to be. I have a friend who qualified for a grant to be trained in graphic design at age 60. He found out about it at the state employment office. See a job counselor in your state or city and be open minded.

I do sympathize. I got RIFed a couple years ago and had to take what I could find and consider myself lucky. Old dudes have it tough.

Until you work something out, the best revenge is living well. Every day above ground is a good one. (Sounds like balogna, but I take it to heart some of the time.)

Good luck.

[Handloader109]

Char-Gar,
Ultimatum is probably the wrong word to use in my reply to the OP, but it is the gist of what I was recommending.

The OP mentioned he had trouble with the Owners kid, depending on exactly what that was, and if it were severe enough, If I were him, I would go right to the owner and give my 2 week notice.

The way the OP worded his first post, it made it seem like he is a valuable employee. Assuming business isn't slow, the Owner isn't going to want to replace a valuable employee, if he doesn't have to. Giving 2 weeks notice has always opened the door to conversation about what my problem was with my job, the 5 times I have done it (different employers each time). Each time, I learned I was a valuable employee and was asked what it would take for me to stay an employee. I won't go into a lot of details here, but two different times, I stayed with a raise of around $5 (per hour), and one time I stayed with only the promise of better working conditions, I didn't ask for more money that time, as I felt I was making more than I was worth.

Now, if the OP isn't considered a valuable employee by his employer .... no doubt, they'll be glad to see him leave. He is then freed up to find a better job with better pay.

======

To those who say you should have another job lined up, before you 'give notice', ...I say you should NEVER put yourself into a situation where you will suffer if you don't have employment, 'cuz it can happen anytime for any reason...many times it's out of your control.

======

To the OP, Good Luck
Jon

The problem with ultimatums and that is really what you are promoting is that even if it works once, it doesn't help your situation. If I am a manager and I am given an ultimatum,I am going to tell that employee to hit the door..... Jon,you didn't stay at any of the 5 jobs where you have the ultimatum...may have been your choice, but as manager, I KNOW you are leaving. Maybe not today, but soon,and I'm prepared for it..... As I've said before no one monkey runs the train. Everyone is replaceable. I know I am.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

The problem with ultimatums and that is really what you are promoting is that even if it works once, it doesn't help your situation. If I am a manager and I am given an ultimatum,I am going to tell that employee to hit the door..... Jon,you didn't stay at any of the 5 jobs where you have the ultimatum...may have been your choice, but as manager, I KNOW you are leaving. Maybe not today, but soon,and I'm prepared for it..... As I've said before no one monkey runs the train. Everyone is replaceable. I know I am.
Not true, I am still an employee at one of them...and as I stated, working conditions are better. Also, at a previous job, I stayed quite a while after an ultimatum, where I got a good raise (I stayed about 3 years). But, I suppose I should state the obvious here, It only works once.

I'm glad you, as a manager are prepared for it, from my point of view, few are ...and most managers (Senior Engineers are the managers in my line of work) dislike the hiring process enough, that they will do what they can to keep valuable employees. I assume the biggest hassle is the lack of 'quality applicants'. Lastly, I do agree, everyone is replaceable, but I am saying it isn't easy in my region.