45 Colt Sizing Dies, dirty cases and body splits

[Ken in Iowa]

I'm a Cowboy action shooter that reloads for several 45 'Long' Colts. We have a pair of Ruger Vacquero pistols, a pair of Rossi '92s and a Pietta SAA clone.

In CAS, functionality is paramount and accuracy is secondary. Light loads are the norm- especially in pistols, although we can load the rifles a bit warmer.

I have been using a Lyman carbide sizer set with the M expander die. We're quite pleased with it other than the fact that the case body is sized down to .471. Fired cases from my pet Rossi expand to .477-.478 with moderately light loads.

Body splits are frequent and sooty cases are the norm from all of our guns. :x

We tumble all fired cases anyway, but cases that don't get cleaned for a month or so get pretty ugly. Oh, we don't shoot holy black, but have used a large variety of smokeless including Trailboss. Some are cleaner than others of course, but none are what I call 'clean.' :wink:

I have found many threads and other sources on this subject. Some answers may work for us, others may not.


Neck sizing. Since we load for 20 different chambers and reliable clambering is essential, this is not an option.
LEE 45/70 sizer. This did not even come close to touching my fired cases.
LEE carbide factory crimp die w/o the crimp to size the body in conjunction with neck sizing. An interesting idea, but my FCD did not even touch my fired case.
45 ACP dies. The ones that I have size even smaller than the Lyman 45 Colt.
Steel full length die. I happened to have an old Lachmiller die. Unfortunately it is straight wall and quite snug.


These are the ideas that I am pondering;



Redding Dual Ring carbide die. At $100 or so, this is an expensive option. It may be the best in the long run. Because of the 2 rings, some lube may be desirable.
Redding Steel. I understand that these are tapered in the body with a straight neck.
RCBS Steel. I understand that *some* of these are tapered as well.


I welcome any advice or comments on the subject.

[Vann]

I shoot cas and all of my main match guns are 45 colt. I also have a buddy that is just starting in cas so I load a most of his 45 colt ammo. I'm using a set of Ruger Vaqueros and a Marlin cowboy limited, my friend is using a set of Uberti Regulators and my Rossi rifle. I never really had a problem with split cases unless they're just plain shot out. The dies I use are Lee and RCBS carbide so I can't compare them with your Lyman dies. I will say that I'm not real fond of R.P. cases or nickel cases, it always seems that they're more brittle than most other cases. I also put Starline as the best, and longest lasting brass and will only buy it.

I guess I'm just asking are you sure it's your sizing die and not your brass?

[Litl Red 3991]

Ken, what you're seeing is the result of excessive work hardening of brass. When your chamber diameters are greatly different than the sizer's diameter, the brass is worked too much too soon. And becomes work hardened quicker and splits sooner.

It's not the materials in the dies, but the mismatch in diameters that matters.

Unfortunately, our shooting industry seldom provides really helpful information about their products. So we can't simply choose the brand of sizing die that comes closest to the diameter your brass assumes when fired in your chambers.

Any brass is going to fail when overworked. And discovering which sizing dies size closer to your needs is simply up to buying or borrowing different dies to find out. You might consider annealing btw.

[Ken in Iowa]

Good points Vann. Case neck annealing may help your RP cases.

My cases are a mixed lot. It's unknown the number of firings. Like you, I avoid nickel.

I suppose I loose only 2-3% due to splits. Others are having worse luck for sure.

The sooty cases are annoying. I can't help but think that I can help both problems by not sizing down the brass as much as I do now.

Could you measure the body diameter of your sized cases Vann?

Ken

[Litl Red 3991]

RCBS has a line of "Cowboy" dies. They are supposed to be for cast bullets, which suggests they are dimensioned for cast bullet diameters which are usually a couple of thousands larger than usual. (and usual for most is jacketed diameters)

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/441640/rcbs-cowboy-carbide-3-die-set-45-s-and-w-schofield-45-colt-long-colt

The assumption most would make is the sizing die would size about .002" less, the expander would size about .002" more, and the crimp die would expect the brass it was to crimp would be about .002" wider.

I'm not sure but there might also be another brand that offers dies that reload for cast bullets.

[Vann]

I just ran a couple of my 45 colt brass through my die sets. It looks like the RCBS dies size it back down to .470, when I measure the carbide portion of the die I get .468 so I guess they are tighter to account for the case springing back. I believe that these are the newer cowboy dies, but I can't swear to it. I bought them a few years ago. They are in a grey box with a part #19112 so at least you can use that for a reference.

I really like the lee dies better the case out of them measures right at .4705 the die body is .469. Now both of these case measurements were taken using several times fired starline brass. I also ran a couple of my R.P. brass which have been fired one time after annealing and they measure .4685 and .4675 out of the lee die.

I shoot bp which is why the R.P. cases were annealed. I just do it to help the case expand faster and keep a majority of the fouling out of the action. I was also hoping to get a few more firings out of my brass. At the first stage of this months shoot, on my second rifle shot I had a case split from the neck all the way down the side so bad that it wouldn't extract. Sometimes its just bad luck I guess.

Vann

[country gent]

You left out one option thats available to you. Pick up a steel sizing die and polish it to size to what you want need for the tightest chamber you have. Carbide dies can be polished out to a larger size but it is much harder to do and requires a diamond lapping compound. The steel die can be worked out with standard wet dry sand paper on a dowel working slowly from coarser grits 320 or so to finer 800 to 1000 then simichrome of flitz metal polish on a patch. Make sure to keep the radious into the die smooth and consistant. dont let it develop a sharp corner at the transition. Its easy enough to do and can make a diffrence but you need to know the tightest chamber and work to that so it may or not make a real diffrence overall.

[Char-Gar]

I use older RCBS steel dies for the 45 Colt and am well pleased with them. If you wish send me some cases and I will resize them and send them back. That way you can have something in your hands to help you make your decision.

[Walter Laich]

I built an annealer to deal with this situation. Anneal once and you can get a bunch more reloads.

[Ken in Iowa]

That RCBS part number is the standard carbide set Vann. At .470, it sizes a touch smaller than mine.

I revisited my old Lachmiller steel die. It is indeed a straight wall with cases coming out at .476" It was probably made with the fatter .454 boolits in mind. The lack of taper makes extraction from the die a bit difficult. Perhaps it is a good candidate to polish out with a taper. The carbide die could be used to neck size after the body sizing.

[1bluehorse]

Hornady Cowboy dies....sized to .473......two expanders, one for .452 and one for .454....nice dies.

[Ken in Iowa]

I use older RCBS steel dies for the 45 Colt and am well pleased with them. If you wish send me some cases and I will resize them and send them back. That way you can have something in your hands to help you make your decision.

Thanks for the offer Char. What are the dimensions of your sized brass?

[Geezer in NH]

Buy many new cases for that many different guns is my advise unless you start segregating by gun. Depends on your tolerance level and time needs. I do not see a solution. Commercial guys reject lots of brass before investing $$ in primer powder and bullet so there are no comebacks.

[Char-Gar]

Thanks for the offer Char. What are the dimensions of your sized brass?

Case mouth - .473
mid-case - .474
base ahead of rim - .476

[Ken in Iowa]

Thanks for the measurements Char-Gar. My Lachmiller die is in the same ballpark so I'll continue to work with that for now.

I shot some test loads yesterday using partial FL sized cases from the Lachmiller die with my current standard cowboy load sized in my Lyman carbide as a control. My test rifle was my pet Rossi 1892 with a generous chamber.

Summarizing the results, there was no magic answer to the sooty cases. I think that there was a small improvement moving toward fatter boolits and cases, but nothing to right home about.

The best results from the soot standpoint was a snappy load of 9.0 grains of Unique behind a .454 hard cast 255gr boolit. According to published data, this load would be in the 14,000 range. My standard Cowboy load is 5.5 of 700x behind an RCBS 45-230-CM. It is probably in the 12,000 range. Case expansion was greater with the Unique load at .483 mid body and .485 at the web.

I may revisit heavy loads and perhaps even fatter, heavier boolits later. It appears that with with moderate Cowboy action loads, some soot is unavoidable.

[Char-Gar]

Ken...There is just so much you can do with dies. In general (with exceptions) the charge holes in revolvers chambered in 45 Colt, tend run large. Those sixguns made by Colt (SAA and New Service) certainly due as well as most Rugers. Even with dies that don't size as much, brass life is shortened unless the cases are annealed every 5 or 6 reloading. I ran into this back in the early 60's with my pair of New Service Colts, and was before the squeeze em down carbide dies were on the market.

I have a new Lipsey's Flatop 45 and the charge holes are quite a bit smaller than the ordinary Blackhawk.

Soot is not the kiss of death on reloads, although in general there will be an uptick in accuracy when the case expands to seal. However in many types of shooting, like Cowboy Action, this extra accuracy is not needed. Cowboy Action is not my cup of tea, but I have done it enough to know that speed is the issue, as the targets are quite close and easy to hit.

Unique is often mentioned as the primo powder in the 45 Colt cartridge and indeed it is a good one. I have loaded many thousands with it. 9 grains with a standard weight bullets of 260 grains is a mite to much for my taste. I prefer to top out the load at 8.5 grains. With the lighter 240 - 245 grain bullets, 9 grains is just fine.

As good as Unique is, it is not better and at times not as good as Bullseye. 6.5/BE was the standard factory loading for many generations. BE is also a little more "meter friendly" than Unique.

[Litl Red 3991]

Case mouth - .473
mid-case - .474
base ahead of rim - .476

Have you measured those three places again after the cartridge is finished?

It's also worthwhile to measure after the sized case is expanded. You'll find out if your set of dies is working the brass excessively. My 32H&R brass was splitting way more than 357 did. They don't now.

[Geezer in NH]

I built an annealer to deal with this situation. Anneal once and you can get a bunch more reloads.Agree with that many chambers.

[EDG]

SAAMI says your chambers are allowed to be .4806 MIN to .4846 MAX.
Measure all of your chambers - every one. You can easily do that with a set of gauge pins. If you cannot afford a set of pins but just the critical sizes from about .478 to .484. If you can't get the pins get a telescoping gauge and a micrometer and learn to use them.

Polish a steel die to work with the largest chamber and load your ammo.

If you can find out what Redding makes their 2 ring die at on both diameters you may find that even it is too small. if it works you can buy one.

You can polish carbide die with diamond paste but it would be an epic exercise.

I would just use a steel die polished out and live with the lubing of the brass.

Any cracking of case bodies comes from too many reloading cycles, too much squeezing by a undersize die and not annealing your brass.


You need to have bullets that fit your cylinder throats.
If your throats are smaller than the groove diameter the throats may have to be honed out.
You need to size the brass to hold those bullets properly.
Your brass is a known thickness.
Make all those dimensions work with your groove diameter.
Then make the die work with your brass and your bullets.

Check with SAAMI before you blame the dies.

[lightload]

The steel die is the solution. You may be able to reduce brass loss by not sizing the case all the way down and by avoiding using a heavy crimp.

[cajun shooter]

The best and easy way to prepare 45 Colt cases are to "Anneal Them". The big straight walled case will not only seal the case in the chamber but your loads will be more accurate from the rifle. I anneal my 45-70 cases after each firing.
You may want to try the Redding Profile crimp die also. I've seen good results with it when used with my RCBS cowboy dies. Later David

[Walter Laich]

As mentioned before I anneal mine also
.
Here is a link to the page where pictures of mine are located. If you set it up with two touches you don't need the rotating cartridge option.
.
much cheaper to build than store-bought
.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?48611-finished-the-auto-annealer-today/page6

[Litl Red 3991]

Better way to cut down on splits?

Don't use a sizing die that over does it. Measure the OD of just fired cases. Sizer dies that reduce those cases too much combined with expander plugs that then have to work those cases back to fit the bullets you've carefully sized to fit your gun do little more than work the hell out of the brass. Work hardened brass splits easier.

Everybody sweats getting an expander plug that makes the case "fit" the bullet. Better for the brass if the sizer does that job right off, instead of doing a job that requires correction from the expander.

Some of the older die sets are better suited to "oversized" lead bullets. Their expander plugs often do nothing but flare case mouths, but not always. Almost always, their expanders don't have much expanding to do, and that's the mark of a die set designed better for lead sizes.

It's amazing how unsuitable some die sets are today. SAAMI says OD of 38spl/357 should be .379. I just sent back a "Cowboy" die set supposedly made to suit lead bullets. The sizer squeezed the OD down almost to .370. And the expander plug was almost as bad. Darned set looked antique. Style points aren't worth spit however. My fired cases are .378 and wind up around .377 with lead bullets sized to suit the chambers of the pistol I'm trying to get to shoot accurately.

[Harter66]

I was avoiding that problem until I had to load for a second 45. The FDC in a Lee 45 ACP die set is an answer nobody offered . In my case it sizes just enough to make the tighter chamber a drop in and sizes the big chambers enough to make the smaller 1. It does it without the coke bottle effect of the other carbide dies . You could also try a 450 Marlin or 458WM sizer /decapper . I think the post sizer might be the best easiest answer.