13x40 grizzly lathe?

[Messy bear]

hi guys,
they have a 13 x 40 gunsmith lathe w DRO listed. don't know much bout them. has some interesting features like a spider, locks on crosslide and carriage, bump switch, 1.57 id spindle, ect and of course DRO. I m sure they are Chinese made. what you guys think?

[Red River Rick]

Stay away from the Asian lathes...............

If you can, funds permitting, buy something made in USA, UK or Europe, you won't regret it later.

RRR

[bangerjim]

For a beginner, Asian lathes are a starting point. There are good and BAD ones! Do some research and read feedbacks on the brands you are looking for.

Problem is some of the old American and Euro ones are around, but can be worn out or non-functional and it is nice to start out with a 100% functional lathe.

If at all possible get one with full quick change gears. manual changing is a PITA and you will end up rarely changing them. I had 2 that were manual change and they stayed on the same config for months on end......too much work changing them. Now with my QCG South Bend tool room lathe, I use power feed, thread cutting, etc all the time with the simple move of a lever. And having a VFD drive on it makes turning a dream!

A DRO is not really a high point for me. Have them....rarely ever use them. Only on the milling machine do I use DRO's on a regular basis.

I do also have 2 Asian lathes and they serve their purpose.

Spend as much as you can possibly afford. You will not be sorry in the future. It is not really that easy to sell a 1,000 # of lathe!!!!!!

bangerjim

[oldred]

With all due respect there is not a darn thing wrong with the larger Asian lathes! There are THOUSANDS of them out there and some very happy owners, including me (Asian 14x40), and they are light years ahead of a worn industrial lathe. I am not saying they are as good as some of the old American or European iron IF the oldies/goodies are in good condition but these are becoming harder to find all the time, it's not like it was just a few years ago when they were more plentiful. These larger Asian lathes have developed a darn good reputation and a person would be hard pressed to find any of the old iron with no significant wear and with the capabilities of these Chinese/Taiwanese machines for anywhere near the money, remember with the Grizzly he would be getting a NEW lathe with a good warranty and a reputable company to stand behind it. My 14x40 Chinese lathe has run almost daily for over six years now without so much as a whimper and that's doing heavy work rebuilding mining/farming/logging machinery most of the time, this thing is accurate and has gobs of power! For the cost the imports can be a real bargain and that Griz Gunsmith lathe is a dandy that is outfitted right, especially with that extremely useful large spindle bore.

For anyone considering buying one of these imports I suggest doing a review search and get comments from people who actually own and use them, the fact is they are very well accepted and have become very popular -for a darn good reason!

[largom]

I have had my Grizzly 13X40 lathe for over 15 years. Had to replace the starter switch once and the drive motor once. Other than that it has and continues to operate perfectly. It has also been crated and moved across the country 3 times.

Larry

[oldred]

I have had my Grizzly 13X40 lathe for over 15 years. Had to replace the starter switch once and the drive motor once. Other than that it has and continues to operate perfectly. It has also been crated and moved across the country 3 times.
Larry

When searching reviews on these machines that's the kind of thing a person will see a great majority of the time but usually with fewer problems over a similar time period or no problems at all! Some folks told me to "Buy American" and that my Chinese lathe would be inaccurate, underpowered and would soon fall apart but for six years now I have used (and sometimes even abused!) this lathe for heavy equipment repair and so far it has done none of the things I was warned about, just the opposite in fact. Mine is a carbon copy of the Enco 14x40 that a buddy of mine uses daily in his mining equipment shop and his was the inspiration for my choice, a choice I have never regretted. My machine is 3 HP, 16 speeds with a quick change gear box, removable gap to increase swing to 20", 1 1/2" spindle bore and a D1-4 spindle nose for extremely quick-n-easy chuck changes to switch between 3 and 4 jaw plus It also has hardened ways. Trying to find those features in an industrial machine with little wear proved to be a daunting task, sure smaller machines could be found in the same price range as my new Chinese import but most lacked the quick change gearbox and no matter what the quality of the machine it simply won't be of much use if the work piece doesn't fit!

BTW, that Griz machine has all of the features I listed for mine plus a whole bunch more nifty functions tailored just for a Gunsmith but very useful to almost anyone, if I had to buy over again or if I just find myself needing another lathe I wouldn't hesitate to call up Grizzly and have them ship me one of those Gunsmith models!

[kfarm]

I've got the grizzly 7x12 lathe. Only reason I got this one way the price, almost a give away. While I don't think I'd have bought it, I couldn't pass it up. I've had it only a couple of months but so far I've made several seating dies (even cut the thread), bushings and just a bunch of stuff. Don't know about yours but the plastic gears are a down fall. I've had to order a couple replacements mostly because of my mistakes. The only things I can negatively say are its under powered, has plastic gears and is not as rigid as it should be. Good news is its cheap, and since I have one I think every handloader should have one. One day I too will get a larger lathe, hopefully I can find a used US made lathe but so far I have had great luck with grizzly. Also they stock parts and are very quick to ship. Mostly you have to know the limits of the machine and what you want to accomplish. Would I buy another grizzly, yes but only a larger one with more capability.

[cwheel]

I have a 14 X40 Bermingham gear head lathe that I bought to retire with. I'd be almost the first one to say buy American if you can. Trouble is, that good used American lathe is like finding the holy grail, real tough to come by that isn't worn out and needing some sort of a rebuild. Ask yourself this, do I want to buy a lathe and re-build it so I can use it, or do I want to buy a lathe with all the accessories I need and be able to use it out of the box ?? I like the American Pacemaker series of lathes, but few of us can power a 10 hp. 3 phase motor at home. I bought the Chinese lathe knowing in the years I have left on this earth, I'm never going to wear it out if I take care of it. When you buy Chinese gear head lathes, 13 X 40 or 14 X 40, most have a main motor around 2 hp. that run on 220 single phase. It sure won't cut like that 10 hp. American Pacemaker, but for gunsmithing, it doesn't need to. In fact it's more than good enough for this smaller class of work. To those that say buy nice old American iron, I say good luck finding it. Grizzly has a fairly good reputation for supporting their products, I wouldn't hesitate to buy one if I didn't already have one almost that size. DRO does help on some jobs, half of your work you won't use it, given a good enough price at time of purchase, I'd still get one to have it if needed.
Chris

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I agree, Asian lathes vary a lot but take as a whole, are a whole lot better than they used to be. Availability of parts and accessories is likely to be reliable. Only a small minority of gunsmithing work requires a large or powerful lathe. Mine is a 7in. swing 31in. BC Myford, previously owned by one careful musical instrument repairer. (The length was for bassoons.) But the 13x40 Grizzly is long enough for the outside of a barrel, and has what I miss, a spindle big enough to accommodate a barrel for working on the inside.

[Frank46]

Went searching for a used american lathe down here. you'd figure with me being in the oil patch one used one would be easy to find and at a price I could afford. I found exactly one. Had been sitting outside in the weather motor and all. Outside of the three jaw chuck it had on it no extras. Was rusted up and the wiring looked like they just ripped it out of whatever it was connected to. guy wanted 5k as is where is. Bought a jet 13x40 gearhead lathe and never looked back. Never had a problem with it and it just keeps on ticking. Spent a bunch of bucks over the years getting goodies for it. kinda nice when you get an itch to make chips and just walk into the garage and fire it up. Frank

[Jeff Michel]

I had a Grizzly 13.5 x 40 for years. I got it after I sold my Southbend because of the too small headstock spindle and a myriad number of other issues after all it was fifty years old at the time. For me there was no comparison, The Grizzly was way more user friendly, quick change gearbox, gearhead drive, splash lube to the headstock, a spindle hole you could actually use. And it was plenty accurate for gunsmithing, model making and a ton of miscellaneous one off jobs. I sold it to a buddy of mine after his shop burned down and he offered way too much money for it. I have since replaced it with a 12x37 Enco back gear lathe I found new it the crate in the back of a warehouse. It has a threaded spindle but other than that it's the equal of the Grizzly. I have a Clausing 8000 and a Myford Super Seven as well, but I usually use the Enco for most of my day to day stuff. The PRC built lathes are a good value for the money, parts are readily available and relatively inexpensive. If you don't think that matters, price some Clausing or Myford parts. Take care of it and your Grandkids will be using it.
Outside of the used market, a domestically manufactured lathe is rare and correspondingly expensive. When you buy a used lathe, you have just that. You could end up with a cream puff but it won't be cheap. I've been looking for a "good" Hardinge HLV for thirty years that didn't cost the same as a new pickup and I'm still looking. I guess my advice would be, Buy what you like, but understand all lathes have some shortcomings irrespective of where they were made. Good luck with your hunt.

[AJB]

I can't comment on the Grizzly but I will say that Non-Asian lathes are out there if you are patient in your search. It took me over 2 years to find my newest lathe, a Standard Modern 1334. It was an Army Surplus lathe bought at an auction and was very well equipped and $1,000 less than a similar sized Asian model. With that said, if I had been in a hurry I would have bought a Grizzly or Precision Matthews.

[Messy bear]

Thanks guys!
I have owned a Taiwan made Frejoth 12 x 36 since 1983 and it has served well for gun stuff and farm machinery repairs. Was running it tonight and still like it. Added a milling vise to it it and that has been handy.Just looking at a bigger one with gap as I couldn't fit something's. Would like to have collets and DRO as well if I update.

[Corvus]

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/

[B R Shooter]

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/

There are other machining sites to go to that are by far more friendly than Malicron's ***. He won't even consider letting someone post about an Asian machine. And some the people there can be down right nasty. People here are not like that.

[akajun]

For gunsmith work, My grizzly 0709 14x40 does just fine and is plenty accurate to produce barrels that will shoot high master scores at 600yds.
Is it a pacemaker or leblond that you can hog metal off? No, ON the odd occasion I have to turn something big, I just have to take it slow and make smaller cuts, but I'm not running a Job Shop, so thats few and far between.

[Tackleberry41]

I have one of the larger grizzly lathes. Bought it from a friend for $800. Not fun to move at all at 1100lbs. He used it until the bits that came with it wore out, and that was it, he had never bought anything for it. It does the job, no its not the southbend my dad had, but it also costs a whole lot less than a southbend. If I was doing production work, ok, but for hobby use nothing wrong with Asian made as long as its a decent brand.

[oldred]

For gunsmith work, My grizzly 0709 14x40 does just fine and is plenty accurate to produce barrels that will shoot high master scores at 600yds.
Is it a pacemaker or leblond that you can hog metal off? No, ON the odd occasion I have to turn something big, I just have to take it slow and make smaller cuts, but I'm not running a Job Shop, so thats few and far between.


You know we hear that a lot and I definitely agree that none of these Chinese lathes are the quality of something like a LaBlond or Logan but that doesn't mean they are lacking, the LeBlond was designed/built for hogging off metal in a production environment doing multiple shifts 5 and 6 days a week! I think our Chinese lathes might come up lacking in those work conditions but they still wouldn't wear out immediately and I seriously doubt anyone here is going to be subjecting their lathe to that kind of use, if they are then yes they do need to search for a real industrial American/European built machine.

BTW, I have taken some really heavy cuts with my 14x40 Chinese lathe when a job had a customer in distress waiting on the part, that's what I meant when I said earlier that I had even sometimes "abused" my lathe. So far it has held up well to that kind of occasional treatment but therein lies the main difference between the true industrial machines and these Chinese offerings, that kind of use will likely lead to early wear on the imports while the industrial types can take it day in and day out for years. Honestly how many of us will subject our imports to those kinds of conditions on a regular basis?

[John Taylor]

I have three lathes, all asian. The Grizzly 12X36 gets used mostly for reaming barrels and does it's job quite often. The oldest one is a Select 12X37 which is no longer on the market and is used mostly for polish work. The newest one is a Birmingham 14X40 gear head and it gets used every day except Sabbath. American machines can be good but the ones I can afford are not the ones that will do what I want. I have had more than one American lathe and worked with several others. I make a living with these machines and rely on them.

[KCSO]

I have both a South Bend and a Grizzly. The grizzly is ok and has lasted well with no repairs. The South Bend has quick change gears and is a smoother threading lath but has a smaller hole through the headstock and since I do general work for the local welding shop the larger hole is nice for some projects. The NEW South Bend are in name only and are chineese lathes too and at two to three times the price. For a starter late there is nothing wrong with a Grizzly you can always sell it later and move up if you need to. I have 20 years on my Grizzly and I just guess it's a keeper.

[oldred]

I think one factor, other than the idea that anything Chinese just has "junk" designed into it" (not always true!), is the smaller lathes designed truly for the hobbyist. Most anything under a 12" swing is going to be built for the hobby market and most have some serious cost cutting compromises that are normally taken more seriously on the larger machines. The point is that it's a mistake to lump them all into the same category and from the 12" models on up the quality and features are usually MUCH better than the little table top hobby lathes.


Also something else to consider, quite often the same import lathe will be sold under several brand names at wildly differing prices! A good example is the extremely popular 9x20 import that is sold by a number of different brands from Enco, Grizzly, Jet and even Harbor freight, the Jet sells for twice as much money as the HF version yet it's the same exact lathe! The newer Jet versions have some cosmetic changes to the headstock to give the appearance of being different but it's cosmetic only and the older ones were identical except for the color and price, I mean they were IDENTICAL and I know this for a fact because I had both (long story there but I won't bore you with that). Likewise even some outfits like the really well built Birmingham YCL1440 was sold by several different companies and it's identical to the Enco 14x40 and the now no longer available Harbor Freight 14x40, at one time the HF version even came crated with a Birmingham YCL1440 parts/owners manual! But of course the Birmingham is well supported by a very reputable company while HF couldn't care less. The point is that if the machines appear identical except for color and price then they almost always are so take that into consideration when buying, especially if buying used.

Just a note on the Birmingham, they have two different levels of imports, mainland Chinese and the better quality Taiwanese built machines and they make clear which is which. For the most part Taiwanese built machinery is a cut above the Mainland product and if considering and import then "Made in Taiwan" can be big plus.

[HollowPoint]

I've never seen any inquiry like this one posted by the OP that didn't immediately get the obligatory warnings to avoid asian lathes and go with American or European made lathes.

I've owned three metal lathes during the course of my life and they were all chinese made. I started out with a tiny harbor freight mini-lathe; then graduated to a Grizzly 9x19 and finally ended up with a Grizzly 4003G Gunsmithing lathe which I've owned and used going on five years now. And get this; I'm neither a gunsmith or a machinist.

Not everyone can afford American or European made hardware like that. It's real easy to be a detractor when you do have the money to by high end machines or the experience to pick out a good used one. It appears to be very hard to accept the fact that a great many of these cheaper chinese made metal lathes can stand toe to toe with those coveted American and European lathes if the operator does their part.

To the OP I would say, don't be persuaded to abandon your dreams and ambitions based on the opinion of a few individuals. It's always nice when we can afford to buy the best but, not all of us can. None of the lathes I've owned were dead-nuts accurate out of the box. It took a little bit of effort to get them that way. Once that effort was applied, they were all better machines than I was a machinist.

HollowPoint

[oldred]

None of the lathes I've owned were dead-nuts accurate out of the box. It took a little bit of effort to get them that way. HollowPoint

That's good point there, the Asian import lathes need to be "dialed in" after setting up/leveling and if a person just uncrates it, hooks up the power and then starts out on it then accuracy could be dismal indeed. This procedure is fairly easy and usually involves little more than first properly leveling the machine then chucking a piece of stock and taking cuts while measuring and making required adjustments, the machine itself is usually quite capable of very good accuracy and things like way tolerances and spindle run-out are normally very good and capable of outstanding accuracy, usually a lot better than a worn industrial machine. An example of a common wear area on old iron is the ways being worn, usually close to the spindle, die-hard proponents of buying old iron vs new Chinese are usually quick to point out this can be "worked around" and maybe so BUT do you really want to have to do that? Really? Certainly a good accurate old iron example with little or no wear and all the features a person normally finds in the imports is going to be a better choice IF the price is close and IF such a thing can even be found. Sure good examples can be found sometimes but in spite of what some folks will say these ideal old iron machines are indeed scarce and pointing to examples of good deals that some folks have run across is no help at all to an individual wanting a good lathe but can't find one except for a new import.

[bangerjim]

As said, Asian lathe quality varies all over the map....for the same machine! the same "design" is marketed under various names....and colors! Some take more care in the tuning, fit, and finishing than others.

Grizzly seems to provide a quality product.

Harbor Freight seems to produce garbage most of the time. The can be "fit and tuned" by the owner with a LOT of work!

And that is for the SAME lathe painted a different color!!!!

Make sure the ways are hardened steel and not cast/malleable iron like some cheap lathes. Far more important than a silly DRO.

Just do a LOT of research and read the comments and feedbacks from users, not just someone with their "American Hat' on bashing foreign products.

banger

[Red River Rick]

If someone wants to spend their hard earned dollars on a machine, and then spend "valuable" time "fitting and tuning" the NEW machine................then so be it.

There's been a lot of good info shared here regarding "Asian" made machines and some of their problems that members have encountered and had to rectify. It's a good thing these people have lots of time and patients on their hands so they can do these things.

I, on the other hand, would sooner spend my time running the machine, making a profit, rather than having to "Fit" and "Tune" it.

Nothing better than a well build machine.................Colchester, Standard Modern, LeBlond, PreciMax, Southbend, Atlas, Deckel, Pederson, Sajo, Bridgeport................ to name a few.

No "American Hat" here................just some good ol' common sense!

RRR

[oldred]

Actually it makes no difference WHO sells the machine, if it looks to be the exact same machines then it is except for the color and the price, after sale support can vary widely however. It's just a myth that there is an inspector walking around the factory picking out the junk to be sold at HF, there is no difference whether the machine comes from HF or Enco for example they are still the same! Steve Bedair (RIP) probably knew more about these Asian machines than anyone on the planet, his site was THE go-to place for info on the care and feeding of these things and here is what he had to say about them,

"Wheather you are looking at the Grizzly , Jett , Enco or Harbor Freight they are all basically the same lathe except for
color, accessories included , customer support and the price",

LMS says essentially the same thing, this is from the comparison page where they were comparing different brands including Grizzly and HF, (in this case about mills but it's the same for all these machines),


"are made in the same factory in China, except where they have different features, the parts are interchangeable. IN OUR EXPERIENCE THERE IS NOT A NOTICEABLE QUALITY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BRANDS",


There are several other sites with the same info but the point is don't spend more money for a brand name thinking it will get better quality, it won't! It may, or may not, buy better after sale service if a person were to need it but the machine itself is going to be pretty much the same so if buying used don't be swayed one way or the other by a brand name if the machines are otherwise identical.

I said I wouldn't bore anyone with the story BUT since this come up here is what happened to me! When I was in the market to buy a small hobby lathe I was looking at the popular 9x20 that it seems everyone and his uncle has for sale, I wanted top quality and was willing to spend the extra bucks to get it. Everyone said to buy a "Jet" since they were top-of-the-line for the imports and I still believe their Taiwanese models are but I now know their mainland China models are the same as everyone else has. Still back then I listened to the "advice" and payed the premium bucks to get that Jet "quality", what a joke on me that turned out to be! I went to the Northern Tool store in Knoxville Tn where I had seen a Jet 9x20 sitting in stock in the store, it was marked $1299 but the salesman told me he thought that was a mis-mark and if I wanted it I could have it for $1199 so I brought it home with me. About five miles away from that store is the Harbor Freight store and at that time they too had lathes on the floor for sale, they had a nice 12x36 but I didn't have a place to put it at the time and they also had the little 9x20 "on sale" (which it usually was) at exactly half as much as I paid for the Jet, $599 vs $1199 but the one at HF was junk right???? I mean if HF sells it then it must be junk right???? Fast forward a year later, I was not all that impressed with the Jet but I was still satisfied with it until I swapped some tractor parts for HF version of the same machine, I liked the idea of having two of them and by that time I had more room. What I quickly discovered was that there was ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE IN QUALITY! All the parts would interchange and there was zero quality difference between them, fit and finish was EXACTLY the same so what did I get for my extra money? Since I never needed service from Jet I got exactly nothing! Later after talking with several other owners, as opposed to HF bashers, and frequenting the 12x36 HF lathe group at Yahoo groups (that site is a real eye opener!) and doing a bit more internet searching I learned the truth about these things and that is that they are indeed the same thing. Different companies buy from the same factory and specify their color and markings and that's about it, for a long time there was a picture floating around on the net (probably still is but I couldn't find it) that showed a bunch of identical mills sitting in the shipping area of a Chinese factory painted different colors for shipping to different distributors.


A couple of year later I needed a much larger lathe and I was very impressed by my buddy's Enco 14x40 but this time I was determined not to get burned by the brand name game, that same lathe was sold by Enco, PM, HF and as the Birmingham YCL1440. HF was at that time discontinuing the program that allowed ordering large items such as that lathe to be delivered to the store for pickup and they also allowed use of the common 20% coupon meaning I could get the HF lathe for little more than half what it would have cost to buy and ship from Enco so off to HF I went with some of my friends both warning and laughing at me but I got the last laugh! Again, just as with the Jet, that HF 14x40 is EXACTLY like my buddy's Enco 14x40 and even he agrees there is not a speck of difference except for the color, fit and finish is no better or worse and it turns out that spindle runout on my HF version was even better than the Enco model since it was for all intents and purposes simply non-existant! Time has proven what the actual owners/users of these machines told me and that is if they appear exactly the same then they are no matter who imported them! Again that HF 14x40 lathe was one time shipped with a Birmingham YCL1440 parts/owners manual and the HF online parts lookup was to a PDF of the YCL1440, go figure!

Hf does not always sell junk, another good example is the high quality "US General" brand tool boxes and air compressors they have, the tool boxes are re-badged Waterloo made in the USA and the air compressors are re-badged Belaire also made in the USA except for the European quality pump imported from Italy. Sure they have both junk and good stuff, it's just a matter of knowing what's what and don't always just go by the price.

[oldred]

If someone wants to spend their hard earned dollars on a machine, and then spend "valuable" time "fitting and tuning" the NEW machine................then so be it.

There's been a lot of good info shared here regarding "Asian" made machines and some of their problems that members have encountered and had to rectify. It's a good thing these people have lots of time and patients on their hands so they can do these things.

I, on the other hand, would sooner spend my time running the machine, making a profit, rather than having to "Fit" and "Tune" it.

Nothing better than a well build machine.................Colchester, Standard Modern, LeBlond, PreciMax, Southbend, Atlas, Deckel, Pederson, Sajo, Bridgeport................ to name a few.

No "American Hat" here................just some good ol' common sense!

RRR

It can also be said that it's better to start out running a new import than having to rebuild a worn "old iron" machine and most of them are! What you are saying makes sense BUT it needs to be understood that assumes the "old iron" is not worn when it's purchased plus the comment about having to "spend valuable time tuning" these Asian machines is kind of meaningless since this is just a normal one time setup when the machine is new and it's not like it takes a great deal of time and effort anyway. I probably spent more time leveling my imported lathe than I did "tuning" it and the leveling would have been required regardless of where the lathe came from!

I will not disagree that the machines you mention are better but better for what? And finding one with the right features, price and most of all decent condition can often be a nearly impossible task, after all it's not like a person can simply decide on the size and features he wants and then just run out and buy one because a person is going to be limited to what happens to be for sale used. When buying new he will be starting out with no wear to deal with and will have a machine custom chosen with features he wanted rather than having to compromise by taking what was available. Then there is the fact that the difference in quality means little or nothing outside of a production environment, how many of these folks are buying a machine to run two or three shifts a day five or six days a week? The fact is, and it is a FACT, that these imported machines are perfectly adequate quality-wise for what most folks here want them for and most of them have features that can be hard to find or afford with these "old iron" lathes. Looking at reviews and talking with folks on the forums, people who ACTUALLY OWN AND USE these machines presents quite a different picture than the warnings to avoid them, with the exception of the little dedicated hobby type machines of 12" swing or less there seems to be a noticeable lack of complaints, rather it's far more like what has been seen here in this thread and that's by far most people who own and use these things like them quite well.

[bangerjim]

Rule of thumb I have always used on tools - power and hand:

"If you make you living with the tool, buy the best. And that DOES NOT necessarily mean American-made! If for hobby/home use only, buy HF".

I have some OLD HF power tools (milling machine, horiz metal band saws, etc) that have lasted for decades and are still in spec and going strong. New stuff today.......????????......not so sure.

Has always worked for my company (I own) and personal usage.

banger

[M-Tecs]

Some of the old South Bend lathes and others used bronze bushings for the spindles. This worked well as long as they were properly oiled. The early pacific rim machines did the same but they tended not to be done as well. These can be replaced cheaply

A lot of the pacific rim stuff had/has junk spindle bearings. This can not be fixed unless you replace them with quality bearings. Quality replacement bearings may cost more than the complete machine. The spindle old pump failed on one of my 15" Colchester's. The spindle bearing totaled $3,200.00 just for the bearing. I did the install myself.

Some of the Chinese stuff is OK and some is truly junk. Lots of research is required when purchasing the Chinese stuff. The currently Grizzly stuff has a good rep.

Doesn't matter how experienced or talented you are there is no work around for a bad spindle.

[big bore 99]

I've been a tool and die maker all my grown life (50 yrs). I had my own small shop for over 25 yrs. When working for bigger companies, seems they all had Hardinge or LeBlonde lathes. They were some of the best. When I started my own business I purchased a new Asian 13"X 36" and a 14"X"40. They both held up good for over 25 yrs.
The trick is to keep them maintained and adjusted properly. I sold out my business 2 yrs ago and still got more than half of what I paid after using them for 25 yrs.
Another thing about the newer Asian lathes is that they can chase standard and metric threads. I love old American made machinery and had an old 1940's Warner Swasey turret lathe that was still in good shape. It went for scrap price.

[M-Tecs]

Until you have ran a Hardinge Toolroom lathe is hard to understand what a truly precision lathe is capable of. Hardinge stopped producing these in 2008. They where get $62,000.00 for lathe that is considered to be two small for most rifle barrel work. If you needed precision they were worth every penny!!!!!!!!!

hardinge.com/usr/pdf/turning/1332A_HLV.pdf

[country gent]

Our hardringe lathes at work had 1 3/8 holes in the spindles and were very accurate machines. THey had power feed thread gear boxes and DROs. The draw back is spindle mmounts are specialized and not the standard D series pin and taper set up. Its a long tapered nose and pin lock. Repeats and is accurate but not as available as others. Monarchs are very good lathes also and offer alot in accuracy and rigidity. Ive ran old machines ( flat belt converted to motor drive to gear head and others. all were accurate and would do a good job all had their quirks. Buying a lathe sized to what you want to do is important. Buying one that can do what you need to do is also important. Our monarchs were 12X 60 and had 5 hp - 10 hp motors. The converted flat belts machines were more limited by belt slip ( belt dressing became a big help here) than motor size. V belts are a plus gear head or variable drive more so even. Interuped cuts or heavy roughing will show a machines solidness quickly. The one warner swasy turret lathe I was around would turn to deopth of carbide insert and drill a 4" hole ( spade drill) at the same time Machine had an 8"+ hole thru the spindle also.

[oldred]

Until you have ran a Hardinge Toolroom lathe is hard to understand what a truly precision lathe is capable of. Hardinge stop producing these in 2008. They where get $62,000.00 for lathe that is considered to be two small for most rifle barrel work. If you needed precision they were worth every penny!!!!!!!!!hardinge.com/usr/pdf/turning/1332A_HLV.pdf


There is no question about that! Comparing a lathe such as that to any of the Chinese offerings is sort of like comparing a subcompact car to a limousine and I don't think anyone would disagree with such a machine over an import, I know I certainly would like to own something like that and probably will if I ever find one that's affordable. That's the key to it right there, finding what you need in good condition and at a price you can afford but that can be a problem. If a person is willing to wait on just the right machine and maybe willing to travel cross country to get it or have it shipped but even then it's not like it was a few years ago. There has been somewhat of a home machining "explosion" the last few years and while a lot of good machines went for bargain prices back when there was little demand most have already been snapped up and those left are bringing a lot more money these days. Still if ultimate precision and reliability is the goal then maybe the wait and effort to find one would be worth it but for most folks that kind of performance is simply not needed. The bottom line is something like that Grizzly Gunsmithing lathe will do a fantastic job, it is easy to get, reliable and is quite user friendly for a bargain price and that's a combination that's hard to beat.

[Bent Ramrod]

I don't know why this red herring keeps coming up to ruin threads that otherwise might actually embody good recommendations and real life experiences.

American manufacturers of machine tools abandoned the hobbyist and the repair-shop machinist a long time ago. If you "Buy American," you are in the production widget business, period, unless you luck out and find a tool room machine with low use at distressed price. Searching for such a treasure can take a lot longer than tuning up a Chinese lathe, (let alone getting it pre-tuned by Grizzly or Jet) and in any case the purchase of a used American machine does not benefit our "infant industries" at all. Even parts for such machines are typically obsolete and must be found used.

The last American outfit that tried to offer a lathe to people who were not running shifts was Atlas Press. For their pains they got the reputation of skimping on quality (the "pot metal gears" canard, the "flat bed ways--no precision" smear, etc.) and even so, they couldn't compete with low Asian labor costs. American manufacturers also can't get away from the notion that people should pay big bucks for the basic lathe and then pour tons of extra money into chucks, tool posts, motors, switches and other necessary attachments. If the American manufacturers were interested in the hobbyist/gunsmith/small repair shop market, they would at least follow the Asian lead of offering a machine that's ready to use, and if they could price it lower than a second mortgage on a house, that would be nice, too. But the aren't going to do it. So why are people on Internet threads so insistent that people buy something that does not exist?

[bangerjim]

I have a 6" Hardinge 3C collet lathe and it is VERY precision! Excellent tool. It is nice to have smaller lathes that I can swap parts around during machining and have virtually ZERO run-out! I use both 4 jaw 6" and 3 jaw 8" (both are ZERO-SET) chucks with hardened reversible top jaws on my South Bend which give me collet accuracy....I have them "tweaked in" to <0.0003 run-out. Precision is nice!

[M-Tecs]

Hardinge/Bridgeport and Haas are the only US based machine tool manufacture left that I am aware of. They were never directed toward the hobbyist.


I don't know why this red herring keeps coming up to ruin threads that otherwise might actually embody good recommendations and real life experiences.


So an opinion or experience different than yours is "ruining" the thread?

Good thread here http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/gunsmithing/gunsmithing-lathes-246077/

I am currently looking for a nice used Mori-Seiki or Nardini 14 x 40 tool room lathe. Won't be cheap but it will have the quality I want.

[Red River Rick]

Hardinge/Bridgeport and Haas are the only US based machine tool manufacture left that I am aware of. They were never directed toward the hobbyist.



So an opinion or experience different than yours is "ruining" the thread?

Good thread here http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/gunsmithing/gunsmithing-lathes-246077/

I am currently looking for a nice used Mori-Seiki or Nardini 14 x 40 tool room lathe. Won't be cheap but it will have the quality I want.

Now there's someone who know's what quality is...............good for you M-Tecs. Keep us posted when you get your new machine.

RRR

[oldred]

Fellows there is certainly nothing wrong with holding out for an industrial lathe if a person is willing to look for it and pay for it but there is something wrong with telling someone that they should either hold out for that old iron or just do without, the Chinese machines are obviously more than adequate, as evidenced even by some of the above posts from owners/users, for most home shop needs in spite of what you seem to want to believe, seems the folks here who actually own and/or use them don't have a problem. What's so hard to understand here? There are not nearly enough of these old machines out there to fill the need, "looking for a nice used Mori-Seiki or Nardini 14 x 40 tool room lathe" -exactly my point a person can't just run out and select the one they want! Of course he will eventually find one and he's right it probably won't be cheap but if that's what he wants then fine, that's what he should do! HOWEVER the folks that buy from Grizzly are not going to have to get a second mortgage, they can select the machine they want with the features they want and in spite of what some would like to believe the machine will be as accurate and reliable as they will ever need. I agree that these industrial machines are top of the line but what is so hard about accepting the FACT that the imports have earned a good following also, if you want to hold out and pay for those industrial machines then by all means do so but don't take a condescending attitude toward those who don't need or want to wait on/pay for industrial quality they are likley to never need, that kind of attitude is simply uncalled for here!

[plus1hdcp]

This has been a great thread to follow as I am one who is in the market of adding a couple of machines to my amateur/novice garage shop. I am not a trained machinist and am looking for a machine upon which I can learn to add some tooling to my reloading room and perform some gunsmithing projects. Thanks to those who have contributed their insight.

[dg31872]

Do not want to get into a spitting contest about foreign made or American, but I bought a 13x36 South Bend at our school districts auction.
They had two lathes in the classroom, mine and a larger one. The boys always went to the big one, and mine sat pretty much unused. It was made in 1959 and was built solid.
If you have time to look, sometimes you get a decent deal on excellent older machines.

[oldred]

If you have time to look, sometimes you get a decent deal on excellent older machines.



Yes you certainly can, sometimes, however those of us who have searched in vain for the "right" machine know the frustration of trying to do so, after all there are only a limited number of those old beasts out there and no one is building older used machinery anymore! It all depends on a person's wants and needs but just because someone demands industrial quality for himself does not give him the right to talk down to those who don't need that level and would rather have a clean ready to run machine that is perfectly capable of doing everything they want it to. It's the "holier than thou, buy industrial quality or just do without" attitude that is the problem here. Why can't some people accept the fact there is more than one way to accomplish an end? It's a fact that these import machines, at least the 12" and up versions, are quite capable of doing anything that the vast majority of the people here want from them and they are readily available in about any size and configuration to fit any need. These machines are new, ready to run and don't break the bank buying one, this is opposed to obtaining an older industrial machine that may or may not have the wanted features and is usually dirty and at least somewhat worn and/or very expensive for a clean solid example. While it can certainly be argued that these old machines will clean up and often can be used as they are the fact is it just isn't worth it to some who would much rather have a new clean modern ready to run tool in their shop. There is a place for both of these choices and either might be the right one depending on a person's wants and needs and it's just out of line to INSIST either is wrong in their decision, BOTH choices are right depending on the person and what he wants!

[bangerjim]

If I needed (another) lathe today, I would definitely buy a top end Asian one. Waiting for the "clouds to part" to find that olde gem will just delay your pleasure of operating a lathe!!!!!! Life is short. Buy a new one if you cannot find an old one. Now.

I have gone the route of buying an old school lathe and spent many MANY hours degreasing, painting, and tweaking it. Bought it for a song and included TONS of extras including milling attachment, steady and follow rests, and 4 chucks. Box of carbide inset cutting tool holders. And Aloris post. But.........I was not actively looking for a lathe........just "tripped" over it at a local reseller one day.

OP........buy a new GOOD high-end Asian lathe today. Tomorrow may NEVER come!!!!!!!

[M-Tecs]

Some more good discussion here http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?52223-Gunsmith-Lathe

[oldred]

Thanks M-Tecs I just spent the last 20 minutes reading that thread and a good read it was! Lots of good points there and it pretty much covered the field as to how these discussions usually go and as usual there were the owner/user supporters and a couple of non-owner/user bashers of the imports, in this case almost all were about the lathe the OP was asking about. One comment in particular is something I have said several times about my lathe, while given the choice if money was no object then something like a SB heavy 10 would be a better choice than my import the fact is mine, as well as many others for other folks, has already paid for itself several times over and made a lot of farmers and loggers happy in the process! To quote one of the posters at that link,

"If my Grizzly G9730 completely self destructed tomorrow it has already paid for itself. I would not hesitate in buying another Grizzly Lathe. For the money it has been a great investment".


If my nearly seven year old lathe fell apart in a big heap tomorrow it wouldn't owe me a darn thing and all it has been so far is there for me for everything I have needed it for and it has done so reliably and without so much as a whimper! At seven years old it still is holding up just fine and is showing little to no noticeable wear but to be perfectly honest I doubt that would still be the case twenty years from now if it is continuously subjected to the type and amount of use I use it for today while that new SB would still be solid maybe even fifty years from now but at my age why would that matter in the least? What does matter is that I have had my lathe to use during that time and I wasn't out $25,000 or more for it. For the vast majority of the non-professional users here their lathes would probably never see the type of use nor the hours per week that mine does so that twenty year figure for a life expectancy is not at all unreasonable for them. There is a world of difference between doing Gunsmithing and rebuilding farm and mining equipment which can be hard on machinery, I think that what my lathe has been subjected to and the fact that it is holding up well is a testament to what these things are capable of.

[dg31872]

Everyone has to make his own choice.
In my case, I had more time than money, and could wait. I bought my lathe close to twenty years ago and it suits my needs perfectly.

[M-Tecs]

More opinions on the Grizzly lathes here http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f37/gunsmithing-lathe-31586/

NesikaChad is always a good read. He is now Long Rifles Inc. http://www.longriflesinc.com/barrelpolishing.html

Alan Warner http://www.warner-tool.com/ and Chad Dixon (NesikaChad) used to post frequently on Bench Rest Central. Both of them are considered to be some of the best long range smiths. Both of the have been the smith's for the US Palma teams.

I have been running carbide chamber reamers exclusively for 20 plus years. Chad is one of the few that share my love for carbide chamber reamers. I believe the throat is the most important aspect for accuracy. Carbide reamers excel at cutting smooth throats.

[Red River Rick]

Interesting:

https://www.grizzly.com/outlet/13-x-40-High-Precision-Tool-Room-Lathe-3-HP-220V-Single-Phase/G9730

"Please note that this item is discontinued and no longer available for sale."


RRR

[oldred]

They change models sometimes what's so odd about that? There are several models around that are no longer available and they have made various changes over the years.

Replaced by this one perhaps or maybe this was just a better seller?


http://www.grizzly.com/products/14-x-40-3-Phase-High-Precision-Toolroom-Metal-Lathe/G0740

[M-Tecs]

This is the one that the President of Grizzly, Shiraz Balolia set up has their "Gunsmith lathe" He is an avid F-Class shooter and is himself a hobby gunsmith.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/16-x-40-3-Phase-Gunsmith-s-Metal-Lathe/G0509G

[Big Rack]

It just happens I've been looking at lathes, I have a South Bend 10L aka Heavy Ten once redone I'll have a $3000 lathe which will still have worn ways and require $200 worth of gears to cut metric threads, of course this 70 year old lathe will be running until spares aren't available. For the same money I can get a 12 x 36 chinese lathe with a lot of accesories. Specifically a Grizzly G4003G which holes for a spider and uses NSK bearings 1 year parts only warranty.
A note here their may only be 1 place making castings but their at least 2 places building them, additionally you go to china tell them what you want and they'll build it.
Through this I ran across Precision-Matthews at first I was interested in a 1127 variable speed large bore but I didn't like the spindle then I saw the have a new 12 x 27 with a D1-4 spindle but once you tool it up your at the price of a G4003G. Matt the owner suggested I look at his 12 x 36 looks like the Grizzly style casting with the gap has a threaded outboard spindle so you can make your own spider, has class 3 spindle bearings 5 toolholders instead of 1 has a micrometer carriage stop, adjustable clutch on the feed rod, coolant pump and a foot brake and 3 year parts warranty cost is $4.00 more than the G4003G and cheaper to ship. I think that's the one I'm going with.
Another word about industrial lathes in the CNC world of most shops a manual lathe is a second op. or fix it lathe and they flat get abused.
My 2 cents anyway.

[smokeywolf]

I've spent thousands of hours running Hardinge toolroom lathes; both second op and HLVs. They're a joy to run. Here's the Hardinge HLVH-EM that I procured for my last employer.
140644 I checked and ran it while it was still at the machine shop that was being liquidated. This lathe had less than 10,000 hours on it and quite possibly less than 7,000.
$24,000 and that was with a fair collection of standard and metric collets, 3 jaw and 6 jaw chucks, delivered with a brand new Acu-Rite DRO installed.

The asian made Hardinge clones are good for maybe 20,000 hours, then need a rebuild.

Others that were wonderful machines were Hendey, Lodge & Shipley, LeBlond and the larger Southbend "Turnado". Never cared for the apron layout on the Southbend toolroom lathes, the Graziano or the Takisawa.

Monarch is still in business. I spoke with the owner on the phone last Summer. The 10EE X 30 is the alpha and omega of toolroom lathes. $77,000 for a factory refurb and $117,000 for a new one. NASA is still using a 1958 model that Monarch did a refurb on about 3 years ago and returned to NASA.

Unfortunately, unless the machine can pay for itself within 2 years, you can't justify such a capital expenditure.

smokeywolf

[Clark]

I have been through two American lathes, and now I have an Asian lathes.

I have two American mills.

I think US industry is selling enough mills to make them a bargain.

The market for used old American lathes is very different from the market for used old American mills.

There are not enough American lathes in good enough condition for the numbers of amateur gunsmiths.

[MtGun44]

Threading on my friend's Hardinge has just about ruined me for any
other lathe.

[BigEyeBob]

I just ordered one of these lathes for my workshop .
It has all the bells and whistles and only needs a taper turning attachment ($600.00AU)to be added to complete my set up.
This particular lathe is a package put together for the tech colleges for teaching students metal turning and lathe operation
http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/L682D ( 300MM x 900MM )
I believe this model is the same as the grizzly gunsmith lathe

This brand is made in Taiwan and marketed here by Hare and Forbes ( Machinery House /Metal master)
For the money I think it's a good machine ,nothing more really needs to be spent a apart for some tooling which I already have most of what I need. Hare and Forbes have their own inspectors based at the factory in Taiwan to make sure that the machines are kept to a high standard .H&F are the biggest industrial machinery suppliers in Australia and have contracts to supply machinery to the Australian Defence Force and other Govt agencies for their workshops.

I seen and heard bad reports about the earlier Taiwanese machines , like casting sand and metal swarf left in the gear boxes etc . But I think they are now up to the mark and are just as good if not better than some of the older so called "quality" machines of yesteryear.

[oldred]

There are not enough American lathes in good enough condition for the numbers of amateur gunsmiths.


Exactly! That's one of the most important points and the one that seems to elude those who insist that others "stay away" from import machinery, the stuff is simply not out there in sufficient numbers to even come close to satisfying the market. Twenty years ago, or even ten years ago, there was a better selection than now but even then it was a matter of luck for a person to find the "right" machine that had all the features, the size capability and price to make it a bargain. Mostly these machines were/are old usually with many thousands of hours on them in a production environment, otherwise they simply wouldn't be on the market at a hobbyist price in the first place! Now since the home shop hobby has grown at such a rapid pace the last few years even the supply of industrial machines that were available has about dried up and good solid examples are much harder to find and expensive when you do.

Still some folks will argue that the imports will be underpowered, crude and inaccurate and will simply fall apart in a short time and while I will be the first to admit that's true for the table-top "hobby" machines that is not the case at all for the larger (12"+) machines that seem to be built to an entirely different standard. At one of the sites that M-Tecs posted there was one poster who was a proponent of "old iron" who gave some realistic advice about buying these old machines, a short quote from his post about sums up most of them,


"Guys ask me all the time what lathe to put in their garage, and if they are just doing barrel work I tell them to either look around for the Monarch or a Southbend with flame hardened ways. If the lathe is used you might need to scrape the compound and cross slide back in, pretty much any lathe that's been used will develop wear here. Next thing to check out is the condition of the half nut and lead screws, especially the cross slide"

Scrape the compound and cross slide back in???? :shock:

Like that's a simple and easy job to do, people take classes to learn scraping! The fact is most of us, by FAR most of us, buy a lathe to work WITH and not to work ON! Buying and restoring an old lathe is like buying and restoring a classic car, if you love what you are doing and love the idea of driving a classic then that's for you but if decent transportation is the only goal then maybe a new mid-priced family type car is a better choice. The point being that restoring one of these old beasts is a hobby itself and an undertaking most of us would rather not bother with, pointing to the FEW "ready to run" low time machines at new import prices that folks sometimes stumble across is no help because they are so far and few between that for most of us they are simply non-existent!

The owner of Grizzly himself was posting on one of those sites and while attempting to explain why some of these machines had a waiting period for shipment he explained that,

"The demand for these lathes is much greater than the rate at which the factory can produce them, we have orders for hundreds of them and shipments are leaving every week from the factory"


And that was seven years ago back in 2008! That's just one dealer, although the largest dealer, of these machines and with that kind of demand going back that far and these things STILL back-ordered due to demand just where in the dickens are all those "old iron" machines supposed to come from to fill this need? How many "good deals" are there out there to find in a market such as that? If one of these industrial lathes is on the market for anywhere near the price of a comparable import there's usually a good reason for it!

[Clark]

140753
This is my brother. He hates anything Asian. But after 14 years, he still says his Jet lathe has never let him down. He still has an American mill, welder, car, truck, etc.

[Messy bear]

Thx for the responses guys!

[smokeywolf]

Clark, your machines are way too clean and pretty to use.

[ProfGAB101]

I was searching for a good lathe for 6 years and could not find a decent one I would want under $10K.

I finally ordered a new Grizzly G0602 to get some projects completed - but that lathe was a project in its self. I have fixed most of the design flaws but there is still more to be done before I can call it a good running lathe. This was just a temporary stop gap until I could find a "real" lathe.

2 years later I found a new - open box Grizzly G4003G that had never been taken off the shipping pallet within 100miles on Craigslist. The owner was just setting up his hobby shop when he found out he was going to have to move for medical treatment. This lathe also had initial quality problems.

Once I had it mounted on the stand and properly leveled I pulled the headstock top cover. Sure enough that gearbox was full of cast iron machining chips waiting to destroy those nice Japanese NSK bearings. I flushed the gear box with about 10 gal kerosene and used both rare earth magnets and vacuum to clean all foreign **** out of the gear box. Initial spindle break in had me kinda scared as it was really howling up a ruckus. By the time it had run the prescribed break in it had settled down to normal noise levels.

I replaced the Grizzly supplied piston type BXA tool post with a wedge type and its been good to go. It parts off like a dream come true. (don't try that on the G0602) It cuts to the numbers. The apron gear box does leak a few drops a week, I just use that oil to wipe down the ways to head off any rust.

Mori Seiki, Okuma and the other high end Japanese tool manufactures faced the fact that building manual machines in Japan did not generate enough revenue to justify the factory floor space required. Mori Seiki licensed its Engine lathe to Hwacheon Machine Tool LTD of Korea and it is still built there to the original specs. Early on these were imported under the WEBB brand name (and a few others).

If I can find one of these I would still love to buy it, would have to dump an existing machine or 2 as I can't run 5 lathes effectively by my self. The next machine which I have committed to buy is a full sized CNC lathe. Thankfully the CNC will just work, as it is a machine I used to run at a former employer which is down sizing.

[HotGuns]

I just retired from Machining. I made tools for the local nuclear plant, tools unlike anything most people had ever seen. I ran some good strong American Iron, heavy duty stuff. Never had an issue with anyone of them although I had two lathes rebuilt.

With that being said, I started gun smithing years ago. After a long search and looking at wore out trash, I ended up with the Griz 13x40 lathe and the 9x49 Mill.

Both have made me 10's of thousands of dollars and both had performed well. I ended up making a 15" taper attachment and a 5c Collet attachment for the lathe and I put a DRO on each machine.

The thing is, these machines are not even in the same league as the Lodge and Shipleys that I ran for 3 decades. Not even close.

On the other hand, gun smithing is relatively light duty machining. You can build every part of a gun on a fairly light lathe and do it well if you have the skills. There are a bunch of knuckle draggin machinists that will argue that any thing not American is worthless and incapable of doing anything, but they are stuck in their own little world. Sure, American steel is better, but to dismiss something that will do the job just because it wasnt made in America is pretty stupid if you think about it.

No different than shooting...its not the gun, its the man behind the gun that makes it happen. Machining is no different. If you have the skill, you can make an accurate product in spite of the limitations of a machine.

I say go for it and dont look back.

[smokeywolf]

HotGuns, your post brings to mind an experience I had while learning the trade. While doing my apprenticeship in the MGM shop, I was machining a die for the sheet metal shop's new power brake. The die was about 18 inches long and I was having trouble getting a even depth on the channel I was cutting; deeper at each end, shallower in the middle. The mill was a 1930ish Brown & Sharpe No 2 universal. When I expressed my difficulties to one of the old timers in the shop, he said, "Anybody can make a good part on a good, new machine. It takes a real machinist to make a good part on and old piece of junk.

[country gent]

While a lathe sees most of its wear up near the chuck on the bed and slowly increasing towards tailstock, The mills see it in the middle of the table more so. an old mill with gibs set for middle of travel usually wont turn at either end of travel. Everyone puts the mill vise on in the middle of the table and wears right there. Moving the vise occassionally from side to side will keep this wear much more even. On some mills X axis ways and gibs are a very short length compared to table length. When making long cuts the table rocks from one ends balance to the other giving the radious you experienced. ANother reason for the diffrence in availability of lathes to mills is most shops may have 1 or 2 lathes but 5-6 end mills Mills are much more common in Job shops and repair shops.

[smokeywolf]

How machinery wears is one of the lessons learned during an apprenticeship. That's generally not the kind of info included in books.

The MGM shop actually had 12 lathes, 12 mills, 6 drill presses (one a 4 head gang press), 3 surface grinders, 1 cylindrical grinder, multiple pedestal grinders, die filers, surface plates as big as 3 ft. x 5 ft. Tool crib could have been more complete, but I do have about 500 or so reamers in my home shop, most of which came out of the tool crib and I didn't take all that was there.

Had I had more room in my home shop, I'd have taken a surface grinder, one of the old Avey flat leather belt drive drill presses, a Van Norman universal mill, a lapping plate, Rockwell hardness tester another tool cabinet, 20 inch DoAll band saw and a whole bunch more raw stock.

As it is, I was lucky to come away with tapping heads, rotary tables, dividing heads, 2 Kurt vises for my mill, geometric die head, several hundred end mills, drills, reamers, taps, dies, springs, bearings; machine and cutting oils, height and surface gages, Jo blocks, gage pin sets, broach sets and on and on.
A few years ago I did a fairly big job for Technicolor and got a bonus of a nice Dumore tool post grinder, right angle head for my Bridgeport, about a hundred collets, more broaches, almost new Tesa surface gage and various other goodies.

[EDG]

Many of the American made lathes any of us might be able to afford will be worn out old carp.
The American machines might have cost $15K to $30K new and they still bring half the new cost when worn out.
They will usually not cut metric threads and will have 3 phase motors and ways worn down .010 to .015 near the headstock.

If you get something more affordable it will really be trash with ancient bronze spindle bearings and a spindle bore too small for a rifle barrel.
You will probably get a threaded spindle nose and a bunch of old Armstrong rocker type tool holders.

Yes you can still do good work on some of these old dogs if you know how to sneak up on the last cut. But many of them are not worth the trouble.

You can imply bad things when you say "Asian" lathes but I think you make a big mistake because this includes Japanese machine tools and many of them are world class in every way.

I would much rather have a decent import lathe than a worn out piece of junk from anywhere.

[BigEyeBob]

Many of the American made lathes any of us might be able to afford will be worn out old carp.
The American machines might have cost $15K to $30K new and they still bring half the new cost when worn out.
They will usually not cut metric threads and will have 3 phase motors and ways worn down .010 to .015 near the headstock.

If you get something more affordable it will really be trash with ancient bronze spindle bearings and a spindle bore too small for a rifle barrel.
You will probably get a threaded spindle nose and a bunch of old Armstrong rocker type tool holders.

Yes you can still do good work on some of these old dogs if you know how to sneak up on the last cut. But many of them are not worth the trouble.

You can imply bad things when you say "Asian" lathes but I think you make a big mistake because this includes Japanese machine tools and many of them are world class in every way.

I would much rather have a decent import lathe than a worn out piece of junk from anywhere.


Very true and well said ,I totally agree .

[John 242]

We have about 20 South Bend 13x40 lathes and one of the Grizzly 16x40 gunsmithing lathes.

The South Bend lathes have some advantages, such as their very low speeds in back gears. If I recall correctly, they'll get down as far as 40 rpm (I'm at home, not at work right now).

The smaller Chinese lathes, such as the 9x20 machines, will only get down as low as 120 rpm. The 12x36 lathes typically will get down to around 70 rpm. Our 16x40 will get down to 45 rpms, but that's a $8000 lathe and more machine than the typical gunsmith or hobbyist is going to need. You may find that threading at 120 rpms can be a little exciting. You may also find that you don't want to run a reamer that fast. I'm sure that many do, so to each his own. I don't know if low speeds mater to you, but it's something to think about. A VFD may solve this problem, but I have no experience with one.

The smaller Chinese machines, such as the 9x20s, only have 3/4-inch spindle bores. Not a problem if you plan turn to between centers. You may want to look at a 9x30, which are available from other importers, but not Grizzly. They do make a 11x26 with a 1-inch spindle bore for around $1500. Problem is that most rifle barrel cylinders are somewhere around 1 1/4-inch. The Grizzly 12x36 lathes have a 1 7/16-inch spindle bore and will allow you thread and chamber through the headstock. The South Bend 13x40 lathes have a large enough bore that threading and chambering through the headstock hasn't been a problem. They're probably 1 1/2, if I had to guess. The 16x40 has a gigantic 2-inch bore, which sometimes comes in handy.

Don't know if you plan on turning a barrel from a blank. I've found that the 13x40 South Bends tend to chatter. These are not the stoutest machines in the world. A friend of mine has a Jet 13x40 with extra wide bed ways, 10 1/2-inch as opposed to 7 3/8-inch and he reports that he has no chatter problems when contouring barrels. He really likes his Jet, although he owns a Colchester and several Grizzly lathes.

Of course the Chinese lathes will easily cut metric threads, while the South Bends require gear changes. This can be a headache if you plan on barreling metric actions such as the CZ, Howa, Zastava, etc.

Another friend of mine bought a used Grizzly 13x40. He had some problems with it, but he was kind of rough on his equipment. I've seen similar machines in many other shops and they perform well enough. However, these guys are gunsmiths, not machinists.