Looking for tips for better revolver shooting

[AllOutdoors.22]

I have had a S&W 386 XL Hunter in .357 Mag. now for almost a year and I love it. I shoot it well enough but would like to get better. Lately I have been trying to shoot longer ranges (out to 100 yds.) thinking it might make me a better shot in closer but I seem to have hit a wall. I would like to tighten my group at 50 yds. (my self imposed limit to shoot a deer) but 6" is about the best I can do. Anyone out there have any tips they could share or books to read with some good advice in them? TIA!

[Thumbcocker]

Dry fire.

[Southpaw 72]

Concentrate on having a consistent grip from shot to shot.

[22cf45]

Accept the fact that you have a certain area of wobble, concentrate on the front sight, and continue to bring the trigger back until the shot breaks. It is natural (and you must not let it happen) to want to look at the target rather than the front sight, to wait for the sight to get dead center, and make the shot break. That is a recipe for disaster.

Google Bullseye Encyclopedia and you will find all kinds of help there.
Phil

[dubber123]

Concentrate on having a consistent grip from shot to shot.


About the single biggest contributor to group size. Just thinking about changing grip will add a few inches to a 50 yd. group. A good gun and loads is important, but most any decent quality gun with a good load will shoot in the 3" range at 50 yds. It's not easy, but it is usually US, not the gun that is the biggest problem.

Doing the basics and starting with a gun without major issues should come first of course, making sure the throats are at least bigger than the bore, trigger isn't horrible, sights are clearly defined to your eyes, etc. Then find a good accurate load at closer ranges. I look for around an inch, to maybe 1.5" before attempting 50 yds. Sometimes a good 25 yarder doesn't work out at 50, but you have to start somewhere. Wadcutters in .38's are a good example. Not too hard to get under an inch at 25, but try 50 or farther.. Not so much.

Concentration and trigger time. I'm out of practice, and have been shooting a little more lately, and even though my groups reflect my rustiness, I can usually tell what I am doing wrong. Keep shooting, you will see groups shrink soon.

[ole 5 hole group]

If you are shooting consistent 6" groups off-hand at 50 yards you are shooting very well. Off-hand groups like that at 50 yards tells me you have your "basics" down pat and just need more practice. Everyone hits the wall and through practice you will get through that wall - You will hit another major wall at 5 inches and if you're able to punch through that 5" wall you're pretty well home and should consider shooting competitive bullseye.


There's not many people able to consistently shoot 5" or less groups at 50 yards off-hand and I don't care if they're using one hand or two hands. Now, shooting off a rest is a different story but still, just a slight grip change and that group can easily open up to 8 to 10 inches off a rest at 50 yards - when talking 100 yards, well - missing your target completely is fairly easy to do.


Just keep at it, as all it takes to shoot 4" groups off-hand at 50 yards is dedication, money for shooting supplies and time, like maybe 10 years or more of sending lead down range every day. You'll get there if you have that desire.

[Bigslug]

Accept the fact that you have a certain area of wobble, concentrate on the front sight, and continue to bring the trigger back until the shot breaks. It is natural (and you must not let it happen) to want to look at the target rather than the front sight, to wait for the sight to get dead center, and make the shot break. That is a recipe for disaster.

Google Bullseye Encyclopedia and you will find all kinds of help there.
Phil

Re-read this post several times, then start practicing with the double action trigger.

The corrective action I apply with my Glock-armed officers seemingly more than any other, is to shift their PRIMARY mental focus away from trying to fire the gun at the precise instant they see (or think they're ABOUT to see) a perfect sight picture (in short, slapping the trigger), and more toward pressing the trigger smoothly. The big hurdle here is ACCEPTING the fact that the sights are NEVER going to hold perfectly still, and that multiple rounds will inevitably disperse in a cone rather than follow a single line. The trick then, is to use your sights to gauge, minimize, and time the wobble (rather than make a futile effort to eliminate it) to the trigger press.

Think of it this way: Imagine (DON'T ACTUALLY DO THIS!) sweeping your gun rapidly across the entire range from right to left, and trying to hit the trigger so that you cut the intersection of the X printed in the center bullseye. Pretty much impossible, right? But that's exactly what a lot of shooters try to do within the seemingly more realistic scale of their normal wobble. . . and they have a lot of hits low and to their support side to show for it.

While I shoot primarily Glocks and 1911's, lately I have been spending a lot of time with DA revolvers, and have started keeping my .22LR S&W at work to help get this idea across. With a DA wheelgun, there is NO WAY you can even pretend that you can hold the sights perfectly still, so it forces you to perfect your sighting, grip, and trigger technique.

The other HUGE thing I work on a lot is follow-through. Your front sight is mounted over the muzzle for a reason: that's the last point at which you still have control over where the bullet goes. By staying focused on the front sight up to and even AFTER the shot, you ensure the gun stays aimed through the entire process. Fight the urge to come off the gun and look for a hole with everything you have.

[Petrol & Powder]

Lots of good advice here. Dry fire is useful and revolvers are conducive to that practice.

If you're getting 6" at 50 yards you've got the basics down. It's just a matter of burning powder and time behind the gun.

I will say that with a handgun, trigger control is just about everything.

[dubber123]

I guess I was assuming he was shooting from a rest.. 6" off hand at 50 is indeed pretty good. When tuned up, I can do better, but I have sent several hundred thousand rounds down range. I haven't shot much in the last year, and it shows. I would be pretty darn happy with 6" off hand right now. Off a rest is a different story.

[JSH]

Email sent.

[250kt]

I don't consider myself a real good handgun shot, but if practicing at longer ranges offhand I do a lot better shooting at a specific object rather than a target. Whether a rock, milk jug, whatever. Just pick a object the size you want to keep your groups at. Works well if you think of a 6x6 or 8x8 inch kill zone for hunting or whatever. Either you hit it or don't. For some reason it's easier for me to concentrate on the object rather than a target. I think we try to hard to concentrate on a regular paper target when like said above should be looking at the front sight.

[Blackwater]

Learning to shoot a revolver well is a process, not a technique. It's really just a matter of learning to hold steady (not immobile, but steady), and then squeezing the shot off without moving the muzzle in the process, and finally, following through as the hammer falls, again without letting the muzzle move. It's a really simple process, but hard to execute. An old trick is to balance a penny or other coin on top of the front sight, and practice dropping the hammer without letting the coin fall off. This will likely seem impossible to do at first, but it really IS possible once you learn the subtleties of pulling a trigger. I doubt it'll ever become "easy," but that's really part of the charm and challenge. What shooter among us doesn't relish a challenge???

You're going to spend time shooting anyway, so why not make it pay off by constantly testing and refining yourself and your sense of feel and your technique? Just makes sense, really, doesn't it? Just focus intently on the muzzle, and keeping it as still as you can at first, and as you go along, and your muscle memory starts to kick in, and your technique gets more and more subtle, you'll start to surprise yourself. That's when you're beginning to shoot well enough that you can actually tell which loads are really the most accurate in your guns, and you'll even further add to your accuracy, especially at distance. Keep at it, and you'll find yourself doing things you'd never have expected yourself to do. Those kinds of surprises are ALWAYS welcome!

[Patrick56]

When you hit the wall the problem is between the ears. The only way is to start again with short distances and gradually increase the distance as the self-confidence increases.

[bobthenailer]

Install a quality red dot sight ! I can usually always shoot better with a red dot sight even if the iron sights are match quality aftermarket sights . because of eye fatige or lighting condtions
You may also try a Weigand flat rear sight blade with a narrower sight notch than the factory's .125 width. and with the narrower rear notch a narrower front sight may help ! also try sight black ,no colored sights.

[Mk42gunner]

It has been a few years since I read through this sticky, but it has some very good advice: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?84869-Improving-accuracy

Robert

[stu1ritter]

Study this guide over and over and put into practice everything it teaches. http://www.bullseyepistol.com/amucover.htm

Stu

[44man]

On a day my old age shakes are less, I hold 6" at 100 and can call all shots, hit or miss.
It has been said we all shake and how true that is. One secret is to let the sights move around and keep adding pressure to the trigger until it breaks.
The worst thing to do is make the gun fire when the sights pass through the bull.
If your gun is accurate and the LOADS, emphasis on LOADS, you can't shoot better if your loads are not up to par. Do all testing from a rest. Your shots should go to the sights--PERIOD no matter where your sights are. If you do not have that, no amount of work on your part will correct it.
The S&W grip is a tough one to handle, you might consider custom grips. I could move a group 10" by removing my hand from the grip and starting over. My group size would not change but POI did. The SA hog leg is the only grip that allows a change in my hand. Bisley sucks for me. Some guns need super glued to your hand!
It took me years to make revolvers accurate and I know how hard it is. I eliminated myself when doing the work but my friends and I all will out shoot a Ransom rest.
We were about done one day and I had 3 shots left for my SBH and took them at my steel at 100 off hand. Even with some shakes I let the gun go off when it was ready, not trying to hold like a vise and got this.140352 3/4" at 100. I have taken deer cleanly to over 120 yards off hand.
The main reason is accuracy first.
You might want to test from a rest to see if what you are shooting can do it before working a sweat over yourself.
I have left revolvers in the safe most of the year but will pop every deer I see. Confidence in my loads.
We all miss but when you see the last sight picture when the gun goes off and call the shot and your spotter confirms it, only then are you there.
Dry fire? Not hardly. You can wear your gun out but once you know the gun is loaded, it is not the same. It is why I shoot nothing but hunting loads all year, you must feel at home with recoil. I teach with a heavy recoil first and step down, NOT UP. I have had kids here that can take a pop can at 100 off hand with a .454 after hitting every can at 50 with a .500. Dang I wish I could hold still like them anymore!

[Whiterabbit]

dry fire didn't work for me, neither did shooting a 22. guys at the local range told me something that stuck with me. 20 rounds of good practice beats 100 rounds of bad practice. That was the key for me. very single bad shot: stop, think about it, slow down, start over. Every shot is sacred, it's always OK to put the gun down and start over.

Shooting a flintlock helped a lot too. Much more than 22 or dry fire. Every shot counts.

Only shot heavy loads. With the gun in hand, muscle memory took over. None of that "try to scare yourself with one chamber empty" bullcrap. After your body does what it does on memory without you thinking about it, then your gun is stone fixture even when you get a dead primer.

After that, it was and is working on grip. Seems less sensitive on the heavy recoiling stuff. Maybe the recoil is just so severe that small changes in grip don't amount to much control change over the recoil profile? I dunno. Seems to make a HUGE difference in 45 colt.

Anyways, that's what has worked for me so far. I'm still working on it.

[FergusonTO35]

It's an eternal struggle. I've been shooting and hunting for 30 years now, and a good day handgun shooting for me is a 1" group at 20 feet with any of my guns. 3-4" is more likely. An average shooting session for me is only 20-30 rounds, I am blessed to be able to shoot in my back yard, which is something most people don't have.

I've decided to just focus on making incremental improvement to what I have, not trying to duplicate the exploits of people who are gifted with talents I don't have. My neurological system doesn't like to cooperate with me and will always be an impediment. I doubt I will ever be able to make neat groups with a pistol even at the standard 25 yards, and I accept that. I don't hunt with a handgun nor am I a cop or in the military, so anything I would ever have to do with a handgun would probably happen at a much shorter distance. If I can get to where I can reliably place the boolits where I want them to go at 10 yards consistently I will be content.

[Groo]

Groo here
+1 for 44man.
I have shot 357mags at 100yds for so long that I hate to think of it.
First you need a good grip [ one that fits your hand.\] then You need a good load , [ not hard in a 357]
Follow that with a good trigger and trigger pull [ this will throw you off the most] and last sights.
A master 45 shooter [also an engineer] showed me that It is not possible to miss the 50yd target[slow fire]
with a good factory Goldcup and factory target ammo.
Not enough variation in the system. YOU are the X-facter. [ 357 shoots better]
Try this, Grip your gun the same for every shot, work the action the same for every shot, shoot at 7 yds a 5 shot group.
Is the group as small or smaller than your front sight? [It should be].
Now you can say, the gun and load will group inside your front sight at most any ranger.[ I used this for 300yd shooting front sight about same as a torso]
After this , I know that the gun/load will group this size at whatever range, so the rest is ME.
Grip is important, trigger is important,sights ,,not so much,,, and you know the gun/load is ok ,,, now "buckets of bullets"

[AllOutdoors.22]

Thanks for all the replies...lot of good info. here! I'm gonna have to implement some of this stuff. It's gotta help...every little bit helps!!!

[ole 5 hole group]

Groo here
A master 45 shooter [also an engineer] showed me that It is not possible to miss the 50yd target[slow fire]
with a good factory Goldcup and factory target ammo.
Not enough variation in the system. YOU are the X-facter. [ 357 shoots better]

Well Groo, maybe the Goldcup is up to the task, but not so for some individuals - I can advise you with absolute certainty that some individuals can indeed miss the entire NRA slow fire target at 50 yards. I have not accomplished that feat but I have witnessed it on more than one occasion.

I have even seen an individual (only once in my life so far) shooting at a man sized silhouette from 50 yards, kick up dirt at 20 yards, just shy of the 25 yard berm - and that was with a 357. I have also seen a couple individuals kick up dirt shy of their 25 yard targets while shooting full house 44 mags pulling the trigger as fast as they could.

Not many people out there that can say they have accomplished that feat but there are a few.:grin:

I would guess there are more people able to miss an NRA 50-yard slow fire target then there are individuals able to score 100X8 shooting at 50 yard targets while shooting slow fire. - Any bets???

[44man]

Pain or the thought of it happening is a crutch. The gun must not hurt you. Been there, done that with friends rifles that went 90° up and a 3" slug from an 870 where I needed a sandbag on my shoulder. I have never been recoil sensitive but there are limits. A heavy revolver can be handled and the same round in a light rifle can hurt you.
I shoot very heavy revolver stuff without pain because I know the grips and hold I need. All are fugly rubber too. I have never had skin abraded by rubber grips. I really love to shoot my BFR .500 JRH.
The smooth and shiny custom grip panels on SA's look super but might give you PAIN. One fellow that came here taped his trigger finger because he got cut bad from the guard. I never figured how the trigger finger can be cut. He also used padded gloves when I could shoot his guns bare hand.
Once you get hurt, it is over. Maybe I am tougher since I got cut every shot with a SBH and blood was all over but I hit every shot at 200 yards. Factory panels. Sharp edges. Strange from a measly .44 but even a .357 can hurt. Hurt once and flinch like a kicking mule.
Remove the pain with the right grip FIRST. Why would you beat yourself with PRETTY grips? They are like a pretty finish that has nothing to do with how the gun shoots.

[44man]

When you teach, proper instruction is needed, NEVER to hurt or surprise a new shooter. Too many want to show off a big gun, that is wrong too. In every case I was told (Not as bad as I thought.)
It really is instruction and to calm the guy down.
I used to do the normal, starting with a .22 and going up but the brain says NO, sucker will HURT. Too much flinching with a .38. Then I went backwards and it worked. if you want to hunt with a gun, shooting mouse loads is wrong.

[44man]

When you teach, proper instruction is needed, NEVER to hurt or surprise a new shooter. Too many want to show off a big gun, that is wrong too. In every case I was told (Not as bad as I thought.)
It really is instruction and to calm the guy down.
I used to do the normal, starting with a .22 and going up but the brain says NO, sucker will HURT. Too much flinching with a .38. Then I went backwards and it worked. if you want to hunt with a gun, shooting mouse loads is wrong.

[Whiterabbit]

Can't agree enough with that post. Surprise did not work for me. calm DOES. It's the #1 reason I like shooting. Some people like yoga, some like meditation, some like marijuana or tranquilizers. I find shooting, even heavy revolver shooting, like a meditation or a zen. You, a front sight, and a distant target. and you all have to work together, even if the target has four legs. The moment I have four empty chambers and one under the hammer....hand starts to shake (inevitable, revolver weighs over 5 lb and maybe over 6 lb loaded), the mind really wants to say "just one last round and you can rest, regroup, and try the next cylinder". I already lost the game. There's never just one last round, it's as important as the first. This can happen (mentally) regardless of resting between shots, adjusting grip, sighting, unsighting, etc. The mental game keeps me shooting more than any other factor, bar none. And frankly keeps me shooting heavy boolits. Simply put, it's harder.

You know when I shoot my best rifle groups? 5 minutes between shots. Seriously. Obviously wind isn't a factor here. cold barrel and a fresh mind and fresh body between shots. I almost never shoot like that anymore. I also rarely group as well as I used to anymore because of that too. That's telling.

[Whiterabbit]

by the way: two things that eliminated flinch for me:

#1 the instant I flinch, The gun gets unloaded right there at the range and dry fire there till the body is calm again and flinch gone (this is different than dry fire at home, it is instantaneous correction at the moment of muscle memory failure). This usually takes 4-6 rounds or dry fire. Then load right back up and start again. Again, no different loads. One uniform load. develop muscle memory, even if that means a load so heavy I take a step back under recoil (which I usually do, I weigh 150 lb).

#2 practice when rested. works well for 50 yard shooting too. found a good shooting position that results in my grip tightening naturally as the gun jumps off the rest in recoil. Really lets me rest as I pull the trigger. That's a major help in "getting into the zen", relaxing as I settle into shooting, and mentally get used to the recoil dynamics more and more. That really really helped me lots. Including recognizing when my grip was un-uniform based only on feel of recoil (confirmed by point of impact after the fact)

[44man]

Isn't it amazing how a revolver can make you step back? Almost like you will topple over. Still a wrong reaction but it does happen. I am not immune to all that stuff either. All of us have those failings and I also do. Sluff it off and keep going. I am not perfect and will not make that claim. I did learn the revolver but am the cause of a miss. Dang it, it gets harder.
I will stand by my claim that a load or gun that will not shoot can never allow you to shoot either.

[Thumbcocker]

"Can't agree enough with that post. Surprise did not work for me. calm DOES. It's the #1 reason I like shooting. Some people like yoga, some like meditation, some like marijuana or tranquilizers. I find shooting, even heavy revolver shooting, like a meditation or a zen. You, a front sight, and a distant target. and you all have to work together, even if the target has four legs"

Yup totally mental. On the best days the sights are just suspended and seem to steady themselves. Overcast days are better for me.

[Whiterabbit]

That's what I really wish I could get non shooters on board with. the whole "take someone shooting" idea, I always wonder if they just get the bang-bang-bang 30 rounds later and gee whiz that was fun you gun owner you. Get them to see the zen, I imagine they become a shooter for life. I have no idea how to communicate that to a new shooter. I try out speeches on my wife, she looks at me like I'm from outer space.

[357Mag]

All -

Howdy !

Baring practice..... the best thing I ever id to aid my Da shooting was get a pair of Herrett's custom stocks.
These are taylor-made to fit your hand/ handgun. I put a set of walnut "Jordan Trooper"s on my S & W M-520, and what a difference they made !

I also stacked some dimes atop the flat rib found on "N"-frames like M-27, and kept practicing smooth/consistent DA pull
to a point where the dimes would stay in-place.

To work on my tendency to flinch, I would leave a round or 2 out of the chambers, load & close the cylinder w/o looking; then try to shoot the randomly-loaded revolver w/o flinching.


With regards,
357Mag

[44man]

It comes down to one shot. That is what counts when hunting, I put five in the gun and that should be five deer. I set the holster in my basement hunting camp and don't bother to change out fired cases. I am much more calm with deer then on the range and a cylinder full that misses is a waste.
But more and more I need a rest, even if an arm against a tree or my leg.
Been to those ranges where a jerk brings a case of ammo and uses an AR like a paint brush, never hits a thing and you can't teach them.

[Whiterabbit]

All -

Howdy !

Baring practice..... the best thing I ever id to aid my Da shooting was get a pair of Herrett's custom stocks.
These are taylor-made to fit your hand/ handgun. I put a set of walnut "Jordan Trooper"s on my S & W M-520, and what a difference they made !

I also stacked some dimes atop the flat rib found on "N"-frames like M-27, and kept practicing smooth/consistent DA pull
to a point where the dimes would stay in-place.

To work on my tendency to flinch, I would leave a round or 2 out of the chambers, load & close the cylinder w/o looking; then try to shoot the randomly-loaded revolver w/o flinching.


With regards,
357Mag

How does herett tailor the grip panels to your hand? do you send him a trace of your hand so he knows your palm size, finger length, etc?

[357Mag]

Whiterabit -

Yeh... you send them a tracing of your splayed " trigger " hand, and also a tracing the gun's frame outline.

These they keep on file for a while.

Their system seems work well. My stocks have it me & the revolver(s) well.


With regards,
357Mag

[Thumbcocker]

"It comes down to one shot. That is what counts when hunting, I put five in the gun and that should be five deer"

I still can recall the perfect crisp sight picture I had on the last doe I shot this past December. She dropped within sight. 30 yards max. I have much more trouble getting good groups than I do making single hits on stuff.

[Jtarm]

Phil has some great advice.

Accept that you're an inherently unstable platform. There's a short window where your wobble is minimal, strive to get the shot off then. The longer you hold, the worse you'll wobble. If you hold too long, bring it down & start again, otherwise, that shot is wasted.

Focus on the front sight, try to remember where it was when the shot broke, and call it, 3:00, 9:00, etc. with practice you'll not only be able to call position, but have a good idea how far out it was.

Practice, practice, practice with the same gun until your finger knows exactly how much pressure to apply and can apply it almost all at once.

I suffered from "chicken finger" and it helped tremendously to visualize my target as a whitetail buck looking right at me and about to depart. I got the gun mounted quicker and started getting the shot off as soon as the sights came to target. A lot if old Bullseye shooters will tell you their best strings are shot the same way, with almost zero dwell time on sights.

I know it's considered a no-no thes days, but I learned to shoot on a Bullseye range. I would start loading the trigger before bringing sights to target.

Likely we were all taught early on to s-q-u-e-e-z-e that trigger, as if holding you breath while waiting for the syrup to pour in January. You shouldn't jerk, but trying to hold forever is about as bad. Plus game animals ain't gonna wait for that syrup to pour.

Once you've got the hang of it on the range, if you can find a place, go practice what archers call "stump shooting". This is roaming the woods, picking random targets like rocks, stumps (cactus is my favorite.), quickly estimate distance and where you want to hit, draw and shoot. Unknown ranges, brush obstructing your target, poor light, 3d target with no bullseye on it. Thats what handgun hunting is like.

Most of all, keep at it & don't get discouraged!

[hp246]

Ball and dummy drills.

[44man]

Steel speed shooters amaze me but they still have trigger control gained by so much practice I would need to sell my house to afford it.
I really don't shoot as much as most. I go months sometimes so it takes more mental control for me. Plus muscles are getting old and weak.
But anytime I have tried to make the gun fire as sights pass through the target, I miss and it is usually high.
It is true the longer you hold the heavier the gun gets and so do shakes increase. Pull the gun back and rest a little. Shooting targets the trigger never seems to be being pulled and I run average 1-1/2# triggers.
That all goes away with deer and I never remember pulling the trigger, sights right, shot is gone with no idea I was adding pressure. I have better shots on moving deer then standing deer. Moving the gun for a lead takes away the shakes. I never stop a deer, made perfect shots on deer at a full out run, even in the thick where I have to find an opening ahead of them. The red dot makes it better then trying to align two sights. A scope sucks trying to get a picture.
I can't use the front sight only, no way I can keep it in the rear sight in those conditions.

[Blackwater]

Whoever mentioned the thing about grips and that they must fit your hand made a very excellent and useful post. Nobody wants to spend more on custom grips, but they won't be helpful when people are issued standard sized and conformed hands to fit standard conformation grips. Yes, one CAN adapt one's self to whatever grips are on the gun and make it go bang, but whenever you grab a gun with grips that really fit you, and place your fingers and the rest of the hand in just the right position to ALLOW your joints to work smoothly and naturally, you'll be amazed at how much it affects the speed with which you'll be able to acquire the sights and fire effectively. It really DOES matter!

With single actions, it's mostly about the girth of the grip near the top. That affects how the gun acts in your hand during recoil, and how consistently you're able to control it. I've tried all sorts of grips on the Ruger Super Blackhawk, including a set of Herrets with the filler behind the trigger guard, and I slowly modified them to try to get my hand to fit them perfectly. They worked good, but I've come right back to the standard factory grips. The reason is they just plain work, but I DO like to find a pair that are a bit larger in girth at the top end. They just make handling the recoil consistently a bit easier.

For double action, the grips really MUST have that filler behind the trigger guard for all the normally encountered models available. What this does, if you'll take a look at it and notice, is simply move the grip of the hand down from the middle finger and below, so that the trigger finger is pulling straight back in a line, rather than being cramped at a downward angle such as when you use the little S&W grip panels rather than their "target" stocks. Very easy to see and grasp this principle if you have a set of both on hand, but not difficult to envision and understand if you don't. Just think about it.

Next issue for DA shooting is the girth of the grip at the top. If it's too large, this places your hand around to the right for right handers, and makes the gun shoot left. Keeping the bore line in line with the long bones of the arm keeps the POI in line with the gun's natural POI. Conversely, a grip too small will allow the gun to point both right AND left since the hand may be allowed to grab it with more variation due to its small girth. It's just "wobbly" when you grab a too small at the top grip. Easy to see.

Next issue for DA grips is the issue of contour vertically on the grip frame. Most stocks today flare out toward the bottom like the S&W "target" stocks. These work pretty well for slow fire and deliberate shooting, and may even make a slightly more consistent "target" grip in their use. However, DA revolvers are designed for use for very quick shooting, and for that, the flared at bottom stocks don't allow one to grab the grip as quickly or consistently as those grips that have an oval or pear shaped contour. These tend to guide the hand more smoothly and naturally as they make initial contact, and one's muscle memory can and will learn the quick grip much more effectively and quickly with such grips. The taper toward top and bottom leaves the greatest girth somewhere near the midsection, which helps absorb recoil efficiently and better. That's always good. The girth at top helps place the tip of the trigger finger in just the right position. The smaller girth at bottom allows the pinky and ring fingers to just fall into place more naturally. That little pinky finger CAN and often DOES tend to cause shots to slip, usually down and left, when it tries to battle against being left to try gripping a too large grip at the bottom. Proper and well fitting grips DO very much aid in consistent and fast DA shooting. There's a REASON they're offered, and continue to sell. Agnostics about these things can really become converts only by actually shooting a really good fitting set of grips, often, but we shooters tend to be a hard headed bunch, so I guess that's just "normal?"

I recently got a new to me SS Super B that has been cut to 4 5/8" and the sights replaced. It has real stag grips on it, which was a neat touch, I thought. They had a larger than std. girth at top, which suited me to a T. However, they had a spot on the top front, right side, where they were just a bit too blocky and sharp edged, and weren't comfortable or "natural" feeling, so I got out my wet or dry sandpaper, started with 320 grit and went to 1500, and just took off the edge and rounded it very slightly. With very little change, it now felt VERY right and VERY "natural" in my hand. Now I've noticed that the left side near the top is just a teensy bit larger than I think I'd really prefer, so I'll have to get the sandpaper out again and do a little work there, too. That should REALLY make the grip fit my hand just right, like Goldilocks when she finally laid down in Baby Bear's bed.

And YES! All this stuff really DOES make a difference. It allows the budding or relatively new shooters to utilize their natural skills more efficiently and effectively, and lets the older and more experienced and conditioned shooters to perform more consistently on a day to day basis. If ever it comes to pass that we have to use a pistol to defend ourselves, it CAN make the difference between a hit or miss, since we're mostly REACTING in those situations than consciously forcing ourselves to do things right, and a hit or miss CAN make all the difference in the world at those moments, should they come. Good grips' only real purpose is to position the hand in a manner that keeps the fingers and other parts in a position to ALLOW better and more consistent trigger pulls. That's really all there is to it, and as I said above, when hands get issued at birth at a given "standard" size, then standard stocks will be able to fit all comers. Until then, custom stocks, or ones that are slightly oversize that we shape ourselves to suit and fit our hands will ALWAYS be very helpful. Very new shooters may well benefit from good grip fit more than any and all more comparatively experienced shooters by just simply putting their hands and its parts in a more "natural" position that isn't cramped and allows the fingers and the rest of the hand to work as they want and need to to better control, aim and fire the pistol. I think, though, that most of us CAN benefit significantly from good customized grips. Shiny and purdy is fine, but FIT is always KING.

[44man]

Blackwater, EXCELLENT post. I am glad you mentioned the finger as straight to the trigger as you can get. I see pictures in gun rags with the finger near a 45° angle to the trigger by seasoned shooters.
I hold the hog leg low and off hand my pinky will be under the grip. Don't try that from bags!
The hold must be very firm so the grip never moves in the hand. That is a benefit of custom fit grips. No matter the recoil, when you come out of it, the grip should still be in the same spot.
I really hate the term "ROLL." I read it everywhere, even here, "the gun rolls nicely in the hand".
NOT, I wish it would go away. Then a guy complains that a rubber grip will peel skin or the hammer cuts him, better to give up the Milquetoast. You need to get tough with that hunk of iron.
My friend split his head open and gave himself a huge shiner shooting my .475, told me he likes to hold his revolvers "LOOSE." After I quit laughing and explained it, he went on to shoot very good through the pain and blood. It was my fault for not telling him to HOLD the gun tight. My lesson too. I gained more experience for others. Yeah, I did laugh since I did not expect that from an old shooter. Shows you can't expect common sense no matter how long you know a person.
Should you hold a .22 pistol the same? Darn right.

[44man]

I learned grips when shooting 200 meter IHMSA and how each gun worked. Then moving to 500 meters for some shoots. I found the S&W 29 could not ever leave the hand no matter how it felt when you pick it up. Bisley the same and the RH was tough. The SRH needed held firm only and the DW was good. The hog leg could be shifted as distance changed to get alignment without a lost target. But single shots with better fitting grips would do very well.
If the Bisley bit my knuckle and I shifted a few thou, it was over. With the 29 factory grips, setting it on the ground while targets were reset would result in a group moving 10" at 50 meters.
It is so hard to explain to many that grips are so important. How you hold the gun can make you wish you should have a shotgun.
Some guns are wrong to start and I could never shoot a Freedom until the rubber grips were put on.
In all my years I never seen why a Bisley is wanted. It was designed for low recoil, one hand shooting to get the barrel in a better line to the eye. It has nothing to do with recoil.
I bought a SBH Hunter in a Bisley because of the shooting sites. I had it two weeks and got a relief when it was gone. You better test before you buy.

[Thumbcocker]

The Ruger Bisley grip is substantially different from the old Colt Bisley target grip and closely resembles the Keith no 5 grip. Skeeter Skelton had input on the final design. I find it puts the recoil force more straight back than the plowhandle which doesn't work for me. There appears to be no middle ground on the Ruger Bisley grip. Love it or hate it. It works for me.

[FergusonTO35]

I must add: the fastest and easiest way to improve your revolver shooting is to shoot revolver cartridges out of lever actions!!:lovebooli

[CPL Lou]

Best advice I can give that works for me:

140831

CPL Lou

[Whiterabbit]

mine looks different. My version of that, at the top, says "move the rear sight down." The bottom says "move the rear sight up"

etc, etc.....

[DrCaveman]

No matter how many times a thread like this is started, there always seem to be a few new bits of wise advice that i have never encountered before. Thanks for that.

Not to hijack, but hopefully add to the thread, i ask: where do you all find to be the best location on the trigger to place your finger? High near the cylinder or low near the trigger guard?

Maybe the answer is different if you are shooting a single action only revolver, vs a DA in either DA mode or SA mode? Maybe three different answers?

Lever physics tells us that the lightest pull should come from squeezing the tip. But maybe that is not what matters most.

Ive been finding with my hog leg SBH 44 mag that a squeeze at the top of the trigger is working better for me, but that may be only because the tip of the trigger likes to dig into the pad of my trigger finger during follow through if i squeeze at the bottom of the trigger.

Different for every gun and shooter?

FWIW, my first shot on target is better than the rest 90% of the time. Concentrating more doesnt seem to help...get on target, dont dick around, squeeze it off. Center bull. But then my next 5 shots usually dance in a circle, until i put the gun down, take some breaths, pick it back up and pretend that it is another first shot. Yeah, mental, as usual

[Whiterabbit]

for me: lower the better, but not at the cost of grip. So, as low as the grip allows.

[44man]

I have never been bit by a trigger. "ROLL" can rotate a SA and let your finger stuff under it.
The center of my finger pad is near center trigger and is almost straight to the trigger with no contact to the frame, I have large hands. I have trouble putting on extra large gloves! Got big feet too! :D.
The reason I like the hog leg is I was able to shift hold on it and other grips do not allow that.
I owned 5 or 6 29"s and all were deadly accurate to 1/2" at 50 meters, groups did not change after I put the gun down and started again but the next 1/2" group would be 10" from the first. I fully believe it is why the S&W was never in the winners gun lists. It was nothing to center punch the first 5 chickens and miss the next 5 after setters put the targets back up.
Test your grip by putting the gun down between shots or let it roll so you need to reposition for every shot.
One fellow with Bisley's here was getting the front of his trigger finger cut by the front of the guard so he taped his finger with two or three band aids. He also used a padded shooting glove.
There is nothing to the straight back push, the gun should raise your arm/arms to absorb recoil.
I shoot guns so fierce the gun will leave my left hand and not raise both arms but I still have the same hold. After shooting many Bisley's I can claim only ONE good group. I sweated to get it.
As you up recoil with a Bisley, you will find it will hurt you and can split your head open. Recoil can let your hand ride over the hump. Now the gun is pointed up with more recoil to come.

[ole 5 hole group]

FWIW, my first shot on target is better than the rest 90% of the time. Concentrating more doesn't seem to help...get on target, don't dick around, squeeze it off. Center bull. But then my next 5 shots usually dance in a circle, until i put the gun down, take some breaths, pick it back up and pretend that it is another first shot. Yeah, mental, as usual

Not so much mental as it is physical.

Physical conditioning just can't be over-stressed. If you are blessed with strength you should be a fair marksman with a handgun - if that same gorilla would work his hands & wrist as well as his entire body in a demanding physical workout - he just might be the one to beat at your local club matches.

If you perform hard manual labor every day - depending upon what type of labor - that will keep you in top form. I've known a couple mason/brick layers who shot very well and never did practice a whole lot - not top rated but they sure were heads & shoulders above some club members. Why a delicate almost frail looking lady can shoot a handgun extremely well is beyond my knowledge but I've a seen a few of them as well, so being a gorilla works well with men but I haven't a clue as to what those ladies do???

There's a lot of inexpensive ways to work your fingers, hand and wrist during the day that will teach that big circle dancer to dance much smaller and tighter circles and you'll see your shot timing improve as well. Just doing a few curls at the health club won't get you much - probably about the same as 12 ounce curls at your favorite watering hole but getting your yourself in good physical condition will help a bunch. As we age, we can keep our hand in the game but don't fool yourself - your time has passed and those young ones are now standing on that podium but you can still make them shoot their very best to get there.;-)

[Whiterabbit]

Well, was thinking about this thread today and decided to shoot for groups, having to re-sight the BFR at 100 yards.

I almost shot a new personal best. It's nothing compared to what some of you guys can do, but this is an honest performance, and duplicatable.

http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/fss/9d4a8ef9e23eeed1dad4a908e252e7f8

If I hadn't thrown that last one, it would have been a real pretty grouping. within 1/16" of 3" the wide shot makes it 4 7/8". Amazing how much harder 100 yard shooting is compared to 50.

you can see my typical 100 yard performance in the target pasters before the last scope adjustment.

Anyways, threads like this make trying to group easier and easier.

[44man]

Well, was thinking about this thread today and decided to shoot for groups, having to re-sight the BFR at 100 yards.

I almost shot a new personal best. It's nothing compared to what some of you guys can do, but this is an honest performance, and duplicatable.

http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/fss/9d4a8ef9e23eeed1dad4a908e252e7f8

If I hadn't thrown that last one, it would have been a real pretty grouping. within 1/16" of 3" the wide shot makes it 4 7/8". Amazing how much harder 100 yard shooting is compared to 50.

you can see my typical 100 yard performance in the target pasters before the last scope adjustment.

Anyways, threads like this make trying to group easier and easier.
I would not complain about that.
Strength helps a lot but I see wrinkles now. Gets harder to hold tight without more shakes. Don't get old!
My friends, days flash by now. I get less and less done too.

[cajun shooter]

There are some very good points made in this thread, but every single one of them leave out the most important thing when a shooter is trying to improve. The thing that I'm speaking of is the on site help by a certified firearms instructor. I'm not speaking about a good shooter or someone who has attended a one day school and given an instructors rating.
We had a old saying on the range, you may practice until you are knee deep in brass and still not improve. Why would we say that when everyone states that "practice makes perfect". The answer is that practice does not make you better if you are doing one or several things wrong time after time.
When you are shooting by yourself, you don't realize the things you are doing incorrectly, so you continue to repeat them each and every time you pull that trigger.
Having the winner of your last state Bullseye Match by your side may not help either. I've seen several top shooters who were not good instructors and some average shooters who were great instructors.
If an instructor pulls out his revolver "he should not be armed" and shoots out the x-ring in front of his students, he has just intimidated many of them into doing wrong. If he pulls and shoots out into the 7 ring, then a good shooter in the class shoots a better target, the entire class will say, he's not that good so he is wrong about what he is saying.
Start your student out at 5-7 yards and keep them there until they are able to shoot out a large hole in the target. If you are shooting bad at 7 yards, why would you need to move back to 25 yards?
Don't go to the actual shooting stage of training until the student displays proper grip, trigger control, and sight alignment and finally sight picture. If they don't have a very clear idea about each of these, why would you want to start live fire. Teach them the basics of dry firing and how it may help improve their overall performance level. Seeing that first great target will give you more pleasure than anything else you may do. Take care David

[44man]

David is correct, you gain a memory as fast for doing things wrong, faster then doing it right. It is easier to make noise.

[Three44s]

Not much has been written about "what to shoot at".

I am not much of a paper shooter with HGs .......... with rifles .... yes but not with HGs.

I did not start out with these but came to it out of practicality ......... golf balls.

You have a nice contrast with black sights and it's a target that takes a lot of lickings but keep on tickin' and you get used ones cheap if not for free. You'll lose them when you drive them out of your shooting area or when the crows steal them ........ (they think they are eggs). I leave some golf balls out and can drop by and blast them now and then as I ranch and have my own personal lead banks.

There has been a lot about grips and gripping ...... and I figure each shooter has to find their own way on that one ........

........... but I did not see a specific suggestion that I give .......... some got close but not quite where I feel it matters.

It pertains to movement prior to let off ........... and that is WHERE you are moving ..........

You see you MUST not cover the aim spot.

You adjust your sights to "pumpkin on a post" and keep your sights aligned at all times but move up and down and just up to the point of aim and drift back down and back up to it ........ and yes, you tighten your trigger on the rise to the aim point. You goal is to allow the trigger to break just as it rises to the point and hold that pressure as you drift down ever so slightly to then add more pressure to the next rise as you approach the next cycle. Also, you don't drift much left or right ...... always stay in as perfect alignment below the aim spot.

In effect you are limiting your drift and conditioning it to your will and causing the release at the opportune time or the next or the next.

I have large enough hands for a DA that I do the same in DA as in SA with my double action revolvers.

I used/use a lot of dry fire with appropriate guns and shot a lot of .22 Rim especially when it was plentiful .... a Smith K22 and a Dan Wesson in my case. (If you did not know it ..... you don't want to DF a rim gun as it peens the chambers and that can't be healthy on your firing pin either) You can do empties in rim but not very many until you rotate your fired cases ..... because you'll be peening the cylinder if you don't. It's a zero sum game because few of us will chose to defend ourselves with a rim gun anyway .... so DF'ing your center fire makes all the more sense in the first place.

I am also a firm believer that you MUST own your chose target up close before you start moving back ...... accuracy must be first and foremost or all is lost.

What was written about hand strength is also spot on and I ranch and farm and still gained strength in the particular muscles and training of those muscles by shooting the very guns I needed to hit with by ..... beyond what my day to day ranching work provided.

I am sure my chosen profession did not do me any harm but it by itself was not enough. All that dry fire also slicks up triggers too.

Lubes also matter ....... as to triggers.

I found Tetra gun to be about the best for triggers in particular ....... I call it "trigger job in a can".

Now if this had only worked for me ....... I'd probably shut up and had not even bothered to post in this thread ... but I had some vindication a while back.

You see my teenage nephews approached me a while back ..... and one at a time each one went with me to Lead Bank one and I started each of them out in separate sessions.

I found it interesting about a comment here about not showing up a young or new shooter.

I had not thought about it until now ......... you see, I did not shoot either of those days ..... It was just natural that it was "their day" to shoot and why waste time by my shooting ........ after reflection ........ I am glad I did not shoot then ........ I now believe I would have been a "lose/lose" situation ......

What I did tell them was the truth however and I think it was a healthy take away for them ..... and that was if I had shot as well on my first ever visit to handguns ....... AS THEY DID .......... I'd have about fell over!

And that was the truth!

The fact is they are naturals ........ and I am going to have my hands full and the time of my LIFE staying ahead of them.

Fortunately, I have a good pile of golf balls saved up.

Best regards

Three 44s

[44man]

Not much has been written about "what to shoot at".

I am not much of a paper shooter with HGs .......... with rifles .... yes but not with HGs.

I did not start out with these but came to it out of practicality ......... golf balls.

You have a nice contrast with black sights and it's a target that takes a lot of lickings but keep on tickin' and you get used ones cheap if not for free. You'll lose them when you drive them out of your shooting area or when the crows steal them ........ (they think they are eggs). I leave some golf balls out and can drop by and blast them now and then as I ranch and have my own personal lead banks.

There has been a lot about grips and gripping ...... and I figure each shooter has to find their own way on that one ........

........... but I did not see a specific suggestion that I give .......... some got close but not quite where I feel it matters.

It pertains to movement prior to let off ........... and that is WHERE you are moving ..........

You see you MUST not cover the aim spot.

You adjust your sights to "pumpkin on a post" and keep your sights aligned at all times but move up and down and just up to the point of aim and drift back down and back up to it ........ and yes, you tighten your trigger on the rise to the aim point. You goal is to allow the trigger to break just as it rises to the point and hold that pressure as you drift down ever so slightly to then add more pressure to the next rise as you approach the next cycle. Also, you don't drift much left or right ...... always stay in as perfect alignment below the aim spot.

In effect you are limiting your drift and conditioning it to your will and causing the release at the opportune time or the next or the next.

I have large enough hands for a DA that I do the same in DA as in SA with my double action revolvers.

I used/use a lot of dry fire with appropriate guns and shot a lot of .22 Rim especially when it was plentiful .... a Smith K22 and a Dan Wesson in my case. (If you did not know it ..... you don't want to DF a rim gun as it peens the chambers and that can't be healthy on your firing pin either) You can do empties in rim but not very many until you rotate your fired cases ..... because you'll be peening the cylinder if you don't. It's a zero sum game because few of us will chose to defend ourselves with a rim gun anyway .... so DF'ing your center fire makes all the more sense in the first place.

I am also a firm believer that you MUST own your chose target up close before you start moving back ...... accuracy must be first and foremost or all is lost.

What was written about hand strength is also spot on and I ranch and farm and still gained strength in the particular muscles and training of those muscles by shooting the very guns I needed to hit with by ..... beyond what my day to day ranching work provided.

I am sure my chosen profession did not do me any harm but it by itself was not enough. All that dry fire also slicks up triggers too.

Lubes also matter ....... as to triggers.

I found Tetra gun to be about the best for triggers in particular ....... I call it "trigger job in a can".

Now if this had only worked for me ....... I'd probably shut up and had not even bothered to post in this thread ... but I had some vindication a while back.

You see my teenage nephews approached me a while back ..... and one at a time each one went with me to Lead Bank one and I started each of them out in separate sessions.

I found it interesting about a comment here about not showing up a young or new shooter.

I had not thought about it until now ......... you see, I did not shoot either of those days ..... It was just natural that it was "their day" to shoot and why waste time by my shooting ........ after reflection ........ I am glad I did not shoot then ........ I now believe I would have been a "lose/lose" situation ......

What I did tell them was the truth however and I think it was a healthy take away for them ..... and that was if I had shot as well on my first ever visit to handguns ....... AS THEY DID .......... I'd have about fell over!

And that was the truth!

The fact is they are naturals ........ and I am going to have my hands full and the time of my LIFE staying ahead of them.

Fortunately, I have a good pile of golf balls saved up.

Best regards

Three 44s
This was great but watch those golf balls! Had an egg stealing snake in the coop. Set a golf ball and he took it. Next day it was back. [smilie=l:[smilie=l:
I am glad to see you bringing in new shooters, my hat is off to you.

[Three44s]

This was great but watch those golf balls! Had an egg stealing snake in the coop. Set a golf ball and he took it. Next day it was back. [smilie=l:[smilie=l:
I am glad to see you bringing in new shooters, my hat is off to you.


Well, thank you!

But tell me ......... was that snake a little thick at some point? LOL!!

I can add one more tid bit ........

Don't try white golf balls in snow ........ it sucks! (Maybe snow snakes?) LOL!

Best regards

Three 44s

[44man]

Well, thank you!

But tell me ......... was that snake a little thick at some point? LOL!!

I can add one more tid bit ........

Don't try white golf balls in snow ........ it sucks! (Maybe snow snakes?) LOL!

Best regards

Three 44s
I think the snake found it hard to make a hole in one so he threw it back! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[Three44s]

Well, if he tasted a little gun powder on the way down ........ he might of deduced that another round was incoming and he'd better git' rid of that target he just painted himself with before it arrived? LOL!!

Three 44s

[mjwcaster]

Not revolver specific, but one of the best and most annoying/frustrating targets I have found to work on is a 3 dot target.
The dots are spaced apart for the caliber being shot, and a perfect hit will touch all 3 dots.
So there are targets for 9mm/38, 40, and 45.
3 dot targets. (http://geeksfirearms.com/Targets/targets.html)
The only thing on the ones I just linked is that there are 10 sets and the page says 40x.
The ones I had gotten before had 11 sets and we just scored it as 1 point per dot, so 33 points total.
A local PD uses them, 3 sheets with a one point gimme, for 100 total points available for 33 shots.
With these you have to concentrate on having everything perfect to hit the dots, connecting all 3 is a chore.
After shooting these targets, my other target shooting improves.

I get bored shooting paper, and try to use different targets to keep things interesting.
Also for shooting paper, target choice matters as some targets are just easier for me to see.

Just something else to try and see if you like it.