thoughts on a pocket gun

[LUCKYDAWG13]

ok I'm thinking about a pocket gun I like the looks of the S&W j-frame 442 in 38 special or would i be better off with a
LCR in 357 mag. this will just be for front pocket carry if you have a better suggestion let me know
thanks


well Guys i put down on my new pocket gun today you know when you walk into a gun shop with just one gun in mind and
something else just calls out your name and buy me well i switched gears and got a Sig P938 sas i just love it. and best of all
I got the OK from my accountant ( wife ) i would like to thank you all for all your posts

[huntrick64]

I carried an SP101 2.25" for years in 357 mag. I could comfortably shoot full-house loads from it because it was so heavy. I used it to hammer in fence posts and to pull one side of my my pants down so I looked like a modern day "punk"! Got tired of that and bought a 38 special+p in LCR, because I had already fired a magazine full of factory+p 357 mag ammo out of an LCR (OUCH!). I liked that so much that I sent back and bough another one as well. No, I don't carry two, but I keep one in my truck for emergencies. There have been a couple of times I was not carrying, but was able to grab the one in my truck and stick it in my pocket.

[cosmoline one]

The ruger LCR (38spl) is a great gun to carry BUT shooting it is like getting whacked in the hand w/a stick every time you pull the trigger!

[Finster101]

If you are stuck on revolvers then I am no help. I have gotten years of excellent service out of my Keltec p-32. It is very hot and humid here the pistol is carried almost daily, not so pretty anymore, cleaned only after a trip to the range and goes bang every time even full of pocket lint. If I were buying one now I would get the .380 but I had several .32s when I got this one. It's not pretty or shiney but they are priced right and at least for me the right tool for this job.

James

[bedbugbilly]

I had a LCR in 357 - it was light and shot well. I shot 357 in it once. I'm too old to put up with the recoil of it so I stuck with 38 specials out of it. I carry on the belt and it concealed well. The nice thing about the design is that it won't snag usually out of a pocket. That said . . . I traded it off on a Smith Model 36 snub. I like that much better. It too, carries very easily and doesn't print . . . but again, I don't pocket carry it and I don't think it's a good idea to do so since the hammer could snag.

If I was going to pocket carry though . . . I'd go with a J frame hammerless or shrouded. I just like J frames. But . . it's a "personal thing". The best thing you could do is go to a LGS and try each of them out as far as how they feel in the pocket and how they pull from the pocket.

Both are good revolvers . . . it all depends on what you like the best. I feel very confident with a 38 as opposed to a 357 . . but that may be of concern to you so figure that into the equation as well. Good luck!

[JSnover]

S&W j-frame 442 in 38 special or would i be better off with a
LCR in 357 mag. this will just be for front pocket carry
I shot a few pocket-sized .38s and .357s and did not like them. Too much recoil for a gun that size.
If it has to be a revolver I can't help you but I have a Beretta Tomcat in .32acp which is a bit shorter and a hair wider than the Ruger LCP.

[FergusonTO35]

For pocket guns, today's crop of tiny locked breech autos is superb. My favorite is the Kel-Tec P32 which gets fed a 76 grain LFP at 886 fps. I can shoot it fast and with good accuracy and can carry it with any clothing I am wearing. As I am now loading .380 Auto I may get a Kahr CW380 sometime also.

[cwheel]

I've got a couple of nice J frames, they are great guns but they don't get out of the safe much anymore. My daily CCW is a Kel-Tec 380. These little auto's are half the weight and a lot liter than the J frames, thinner in the pocket as well. I just carry, and fire a couple of mags every couple of months, clean and repeat. In 10 years of owning one, never a malfunction or broken part. Only thing that has suffered is the finish. A LEO friend taught me years ago that you get a firearm that you will carry, not leave at home or in the truck, it's not going to do you any good there if needed. 380 is a marginal round to be sure. But my job is to get my family and myself out alive to fight another day. A LEO that might have to start the fight will need a larger pistol.
Chris

[Petrol & Powder]

I have a lot of years with snubnose revolvers and I'm a big fan of the type for self defense. The first rule of a gunfight is to HAVE A GUN and the snubnose lends itself to being available.
I'm not a fan of .357 magnum in pocket guns and think that 38 Special +P is far better than a lot of folks will admit. A short barreled revolver loaded with the "FBI Load" or its equivalent is a proven tool with an excellent track record. The Speer "Gold Dot Short Barrel Load" with the 135gr Gold Dot bullet is an option if the 158 gr load will not shoot to P.O.A.
The "FBI Load" is available from Remington as their HTP load or you can duplicate it by handloading a soft LSWCHP to the appropriate velocity. The 158 gr LSWCHP would always be my first choice for a snubnose 38 load.

As for the gun, I've shot the LCR and the J-frame Smiths. The LCR is a fine little gun but after carrying a 442 for over 20 years I have to say I'm a bit biased towards the S&W. The lightweight J-frames aren't rated for +P and I wouldn't shoot a lot of +P through them but I'm here to tell you that you can shoot a few through them with no ill effects.
I practice with a LSWC about 159 grains in weight and try to keep the reloads in standard pressure territory but those little lightweight J-frames are a lot tougher than many people think.

The grip selection for the S&W is a little better than the Ruger but the aftermarket selection of Ruger grips is catching up to the S&W. Any type of compact boot grip will improve the handling of the J-frame without destroying the compact nature of the gun (which is why you select a snubnose in the first place ! )

The out-of-the-box trigger pull of the LCR may be a bit better than a current model S&W 442 but the 442 can be easily improved if you wish.

I vote for the S&W but I openly admit my bias.

[Petrol & Powder]

Oh and BTW that is 20+ years of pocket carry.

[gpidaho]

Okay, pocket gun not holster carry gun. I have a Double Tap 45ACP The gun is small enough and flat enough you'll forget its in your pocket. (don't walk in the court house or into an airport ,lol) That said it's strictly PYSOOTF kind of a gun, not at all fun at the range. I would say that it's just slightly better behind it than in front of it, but don't know where you would get any more up close power in a gun this small and concealable. GP

[Petrol & Powder]

.............
I have a Beretta Tomcat in .32acp which is a bit shorter and a hair wider than the Ruger LCP.

I had a Tomcat and a couple of my friends still do. That is the LOUDEST little .32 ACP I've ever fired but it works beautifully and is very reliable and quite accurate for a pocket pistol. The gun doesn't have an extractor (doesn't need one) but it does have a tip up barrel so the manual of arms is a bit unusual when clearing the chamber. It's not difficult, just different.
They are cool little pistols and well made.
Put some Winchester Silvertips in it and carry on.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

thanks all i do have a Ruger sp 101 3" but its just to big for pocket carry for me LGS has a like new j-frame that i'm looking at

[beemer]

I like Airweight Smiths but small autos are easier to carry in your front pocket. I bought my wife a Taurus TCP in 380, it ends up in my pocket more often than not. It shoots close enough to POA and seems to be reliable. It's as convenient to carry as my 25 auto. There is a lot of trade off in power with a small pistol but if you can't carry it you can't use it. I've noticed that the older I get the smaller pistols I prefer, maybe I'm getting back to the reason for a handgun to begin with.

Dave

[WALLNUTT]

I carry J frames. Just like revolvers better. Maybe an age thing. ! don't see the need for magnum but it's all personal. I use Hornady critical defense 38 for carry and pratice with wadcutters. Impact is the same at 25 feet.

[txbirdman]

I use to be a dyed in the wool revolver guy but no more. I too carry in the front pocket year round and have found nothing better that my Kahr CM9. I've carried it for about 3 years in my Wrangler jeans every day with no problem. I've shot this little gun quite a bit and am confident in it's reliability. Also I feel that 7 rounds of 124 gr. HST HP's is far more effective than a .38 Spcl. especially in a 5 shot revolver.

[Petrol & Powder]

The SP101 is a good gun but as the OP stated, it is far too big for pocket carry. Even a 2" (2.25") SP101 with a bobbed hammer is a bit large/heavy for pocket carry (I know because I've done it)

As for the OP's 38 Special v. .357 mag question; I'd like to expand on that a bit.

There is no doubt that the .357 magnum produces far more energy than the 38 Special but comparison between the two has altered the perception of the 38 Special to an unrealistic point.
When talking about the 38 Special and the .357 Magnum one might be led to believe the 38 Special wouldn't penetrate a sheet of typing paper at 10' :o ! The 38 Special is a very versatile and effective cartridge and it is that versatility that has saved it from extinction in the face of the magnum. The 44 Magnum has almost killed off double action revolvers chambered in 44 Special, which is a shame because the 44 Special is an outstanding cartridge. The .357 magnum hasn't managed to harm the reputation of the 38 Special to the same degree as the 44 mag did to the 44 Special but it has changed the way people think about the 38 Special. There's a lot of value in the 38 Special cartridge and even out of a short barrel, it has proven to be a very effective cartridge.

I wouldn't discount the 38 Special simply because the magnum produces more energy.

[MarkP]

I have a 642 & 637 that I use for front pocket holstered carry. I find when wearing shorts a M-60 is just too heavy.
The Air Wt Smiths are +P rated it is stamped on the side of my bbl. just check S&W's website (642) 140218140218

[LUCKYDAWG13]

are all j-frames +p rated

[jmort]

I have/had 5 J Frames and like them, but the .357 LCR is better all around. I use this 170 grain RFP at 1,000 fps in .357 brass. Recoil very manageable. Works well in the field and the city.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/lib/timthumb.php?src=/img/bullets/catalogue/36-170T.png&w=114&h=0&zc=0

[MT Gianni]

Take a hard look at Kahr. My CM 40 is highly accurate and controllable.

[country gent]

Ill throw another option in the pot also. I carry a j frame front pocket or hip grip on waist band. Its a 340 scandium titanium chiefs with no hammer. Carrys very well dosnt disturb lie of clothing is chambered 357 mag. Shoots very good. Recoil is on heavy side but gun loaded is around 14 ounces. Not alot of droop or sagging with it. I do recomend if possible trying one first as recoils is heavy with 38 loads even. I also recomend if pocket carrying a pocket holster to keep it oriented and from printing as much. Its a very light easily concealed and reliable small revolver.

[Mk42gunner]

are all j-frames +p rated
No. I don't remember just when or where the cutoff is, but this should be easily found via google.

As for the original question; as much as I like revolvers, I would go for a small semi auto -- after it has proven to be reliable.

My experience as a range master and armorer in the Navy was that when a malfunction happens, if you have a bottom feeder you probably can get it cleared and continue hostilities; if you have a revolver that doesn't fire (other than a misfire) you probably need tools and knowledge of the inner workings to get it to shoot again.

I am a firm believer in Mr. Murphy's law.

Robert

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Take a hard look at Kahr. My CM 40 is highly accurate and controllable.

that looks about the same size as my XDs 45 and thats just a little to big for me to carry in my front pocket

[2wheelDuke]

I've pocket carried the 442 before, and it does well. I shoot it well too. I did clean up the trigger a tiny bit. All your modern J frames should be +p rated, but I don't feed them +p regularly. Because there's old .38's that aren't up to +p around still, my department won't issue +p .38 ammo so they don't have to worry about a mix up.

I haven't got to shoot the Ruger LCP.

I prefer autos for pocket carry since they're thinner. There's some great small frame autos out these days. The Glock 42 is my current favorite.

[Bigslug]

There's nothing inherently wrong with the LCR, but you'll have more grip options for the J-frame Smiths. Of the hammerless models, the 442 and 642 .38's will be the cheapest and fairly light; the 640 being all stainless the heaviest but easiest to shoot hot and/or .357's from; and the 342 titanium/scandium the lightest, most expensive, and least pleasant to pull the trigger on with a hot load.

They and the small pocket autos don't displace one another - each has their place - but the wheelguns throw bigger lumps of lead for the size and are less sensitive to concerns related to the ammo. Call me a fan.

[Petrol & Powder]

are all j-frames +p rated

As Mk42gunner stated, not all S&W airweight J-frames are rated for +P ......BUT I've never lost any sleep over that issue.

I see no sense in abusing a good gun during practice. I wouldn't make a habit of shooting +P cartridges in an older airweight but a cylinder full every now and then isn't going to blow up the gun. I recall reading about a test in which a large number of +P rounds were fired in an airweight J-frame (it may have been conducted by Elmer Keith, not sure) and the gun survived just fine. I'd rather not shoot a good gun until it becomes loose but the airweights are tougher than most people think.
I don't have much experience with the super lightweight titanium and scandium models. I'm sure they are a joy to carry and bear to shoot but that whole thing about having a gun is what those models are all about.

[jmort]

I know of a man who carries a J Frame in a pocket holster for his CCW. Jerry Charles Miculek, Jr.

[Petrol & Powder]

I will strongly suggest using a pocket holster for pocket carry of a small revolver. The holster covers and protects the trigger, helps to keep debris out of the gun, breaks up the outline of the gun and keeps the gun positioned muzzle down and with the grip in the correct orientation.

I've used both the all steel S&W 640 and the airweight 442, along with several others, but I always come back to the airweight. The 640 is a nice gun, particularly the older models with the shorter barrels and if you don't mind the extra weight, they actually shoot very well.

[jmort]

Most of the pocket holsters print with revolvers and tell the world, "gun in pocket."
This will not print
http://www.pocketholsters.com/Ruger_LCR_Pocket_Wallet_Holste/ruger_lcr_pocket_wallet_holster.html
This works well for the $$$ and is not leather will not retain as much moisture. Size 3 or even 4 work well
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004T18LCA/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=27UO44IFJYUFC&coliid=IZJB81FTXIS1E&psc=1

[Geraldo]

I've tried J-frames in every caliber S&W made and I just can't warm up to them. I carry Ruger LCP in a kydex pocket holster. If anybody notices it they probably think it's a phone.

[johniv]

442 makes a good pocket gun. 357 is not necessary but nice for versatility (in case of TEOTWAWKI) but not so much for EDC. As mentioned by others, the uber light 357's are NO fun to shoot. I was an auto guy but rollers are all I carry ATT.
FWIW
John

[snowwolfe]

NAA Sidewinder in .22 mag

[Good Cheer]

ok I'm thinking about a pocket gun I like the looks of the S&W j-frame 442 in 38 special or would i be better off with a
LCR in 357 mag. this will just be for front pocket carry if you have a better suggestion let me know
thanks

Well, just my take on the "pocket gun".
If you're looking for a close up protection piece then take a glance at what worked for our forefathers.
Get a low priced second hand revolver, rasp the wood to minimum, hacksaw the barrel, re-crown it and file all the edges smooth to avoid damaging your clothing. If you reload then load to suit.
That's what I'd do. Everybody else probably has a different idea that's just as good.

[M-Tecs]

are all j-frames +p rated

Not the early ones.

I have a S&W 337 PD that I love. It weights in a 10.6 oz but it doesn't understand what it is. It thinks its a target pistol. It has the best out of the box single action trigger I have ever felt. It loves Federal 38 Special +P 129 Hydra Shok's. It points of impact perfectly. I have won a fair amount of bets with this one. I have a couple of other revolvers of this size class that I can't shoot nearly as well. I am planning on being buried with this one.

[Texantothecore]

Although I have a nice carry piece, rather old and all steel I am going to be going with one of the .45/.410 Bond Arms pocket guns.

Since I am a black powder guy the modern pistols aren't too interesting and I rarely shoot my defensive pistols .

[hoosierlogger]

I carry an LCP. I have a sticky holster for it. The pistol comes right out of the pocket, and the holster stays put in the pocket. I love it and don't leave home without it.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

i was thinking about the LCP or a Khar in 380 too but then i need a mold dies brass the hole nine yards. so I would to keep with
38/357 9mm 45

[country gent]

I think Sig is making a version of the 238 in 9mm now could be interesting little pistol

[nagantguy]

I have a lot of years with snubnose revolvers and I'm a big fan of the type for self defense. The first rule of a gunfight is to HAVE A GUN and the snubnose lends itself to being available.
I'm not a fan of .357 magnum in pocket guns and think that 38 Special +P is far better than a lot of folks will admit. A short barreled revolver loaded with the "FBI Load" or its equivalent is a proven tool with an excellent track record. The Speer "Gold Dot Short Barrel Load" with the 135gr Gold Dot bullet is an option if the 158 gr load will not shoot to P.O.A.
The "FBI Load" is available from Remington as their HTP load or you can duplicate it by handloading a soft LSWCHP to the appropriate velocity. The 158 gr LSWCHP would always be my first choice for a snubnose 38 load.

As for the gun, I've shot the LCR and the J-frame Smiths. The LCR is a fine little gun but after carrying a 442 for over 20 years I have to say I'm a bit biased towards the S&W. The lightweight J-frames aren't rated for +P and I wouldn't shoot a lot of +P through them but I'm here to tell you that you can shoot a few through them with no ill effects.
I practice with a LSWC about 159 grains in weight and try to keep the reloads in standard pressure territory but those little lightweight J-frames are a lot tougher than many people think.

The grip selection for the S&W is a little better than the Ruger but the aftermarket selection of Ruger grips is catching up to the S&W. Any type of compact boot grip will improve the handling of the J-frame without destroying the compact nature of the gun (which is why you select a snubnose in the first place ! )

The out-of-the-box trigger pull of the LCR may be a bit better than a current model S&W 442 but the 442 can be easily improved if you wish.

I vote for the S&W but I openly admit my bias.

Nice insightful well thought out post ; my feelings mirror yours as does experience; I do like .357 snubbies though just cause I'm infatuated with dual caliber weapons.

[W.R.Buchanan]

All these revolers seem a little big to be carried in your pocket. The Kel Tec and Ruger LCP are small enough and My bro in law carries his KT in his front pocket.

By far the coolest thing I saw at the SHOT Show this year was a North American Arms Pug with a laser on it.

It is only .22 Magnum however with the laser the 1 1/8" barrel is of little consequence as wherever the laser is pointing when the shot breaks is where the bullet will go. In fact the really short barrel would benefit accuracy simply because the bullet is spending less time in the barrel.

The real upside to these guns is the light weight of about 6.4 oz. I'd be more likely to have one of these with me than anything heavier. I know they are only a .22 Mag but shooting someone with one surely would ruin their day.

Alas, not on the CA list, and not likely to be anytime soon. Starting to look at citizenship in another state as this BS is growing thin.

Randy

[rking22]

I actually had one of those NAAs in 22 mag. Of the 5 rounds in the gun, 3 would hit sideways and 2 front ways! Shot a box thru it and was consistently that way, pointed well and at 3 to5 yards all would be in 8 inches or so. I bought it as a snake gun and it was no go at that task either. Went down the road in short order.
A Smith 36 is my pocket gun, but I like the idea of an LCP for it's light weight. Time will tell, I have a friend with one I'm going to shoot shortly. The gun not the friend.

[Bullwolf]

I took some pictures of my DAO SP101 along side my newer Smith J-frame 442 a while ago for another thread.

You may find them interesting.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_187904f332e5a776fa.jpg http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_187904f309093ba7c8.jpg

To be fair though, I had the larger Hogue grips on my SP101 instead of a boot grip like my Badger Grips pictured below, at the time I took the pictures.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/18790502079a0e4d49.jpg

If shooting 38 Special only, the smaller boot grips are just fine on the SP101 at it's a somewhat heavy gun for such a small snub nosed revolver.

When target shooting, or shooting 357 Magnum level loads I find the Ruger SP101 is MUCH more pleasant to shoot with the larger Hogue grips installed. So most of the time my SP101 wears the larger rubber grips instead.

http://www.danwessonforum.com/wp-content/gallery/bullwolf/SP101-Left.jpg

As I mentioned in another thread to Tazman, I have become partial to the DeSanti Clip grips. They closely resemble the same profile as the boot grips for J-frames that I'm already familiar with. They also fit in a pocket easily for times when you just don't feel like putting the revolver into a separate pocket holster, or wearing a holster on your hip. The grips would also work well for "Mexican Carry" or waist band with no holster carry, which I don't use, but others may.

http://www.desantisholster.com/desantisholster/content/images_inv/b/l/1709/T07_Clip_Grip_IWB_large2_1709.jpg http://www.desantisholster.com/desantisholster/content/images_inv/b/l/1709/T07_Rear_large3_1709.jpg

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=53029&d=1326591951

Many carry an SP101 in a pocket. I find mine too heavy to be carried that way comfortably for very long without feeling like it's pulling my pants down. So my SP101 tends to only get worn on my hip in a belt holster.

Personally I prefer revolvers, and I openly admit to it. Yet many of the newer auto pistols are quite slim, and may pocket carry better for folks. I have a buddy who carries a Kel-Tec 9mm auto around in a pocket holster, and it seems to work well for him.

I tend to grab my 442 first due to it being hammer less - Or else an older model 60 Chief's Special for a walk around, pocket carry pistol on the farm.

http://www.ogallerie.com/auctions/2009-08/7_1.jpg

As with everything else, your situation, body style, and pocket carry needs will likely be different than mine. The pistol you eventually do select will be a very personal decision.



- Bullwolf

[winelover]

Luckydawg.......I have both revolvers you are interested in. They both work equally well for front pocket carry. I use the same Mika pocket holster for, either. In fact they are so similar, that the LCR will fit in reasonably well in the custom molded, krydex IWB holster, for the 642. Weight wise, the LCR is @ two ounces heavier, due to the longer cylinder.

Out of the box, the LCR has a better trigger. Price wise, the 357 LCR is more expensive, but a comparable light weight S&W 357 is even more so.

Recoil is manageable with the 357, however I don't recommend an extended range session with heavy for caliber bullets. I carry the Critical Defense 125 grain load and it shoots to POA. For practice, I load the Lyman 120 TC boolit with either Unique or Bullseye, to duplicate POA.

If I had to choose only one, it would be a 357 version. Just because, it will also accept any 38 Special load. Versatility, is King.

BTW, I also highly recommend that either selection have Crimson Trace Laser Grips. Not only do they excel in low light but also in the "intimidation" factor. Speaking of sights, the Ruger, has the edge, in this department.


Winelover

[Forrest r]

Nothing fancy for me & the misses, just plain jane pocket pistols that work. I've used/carried a charter arms bulldog for decades now. A 44spl is hard to beat & it holds to the point of aim with 220gr to 240gr bullets.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/3inchbbl_zps5d3a2f29.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/3inchbbl_zps5d3a2f29.jpg.html)

The misses prefers 38spl's and she likes her light weight undercover. These are p+ rated and hold to the point of aim with 158gr bullets.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/undercover_zpsdbyc4p2b.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/undercover_zpsdbyc4p2b.jpg.html)

Plain triggers, plain pistols but they flat out work & the 44spl is a real thumper

[LUCKYDAWG13]

I like the looks of your bulldog but can you carry that in you pocket the grip looks a little big for that

[trapper9260]

For pocket guns, today's crop of tiny locked breech autos is superb. My favorite is the Kel-Tec P32 which gets fed a 76 grain LFP at 886 fps. I can shoot it fast and with good accuracy and can carry it with any clothing I am wearing. As I am now loading .380 Auto I may get a Kahr CW380 sometime also.

I use a P32 also and since i reload 32acp for my 327, I end up with a P32 and happy with it also.Sit in my front pocket is a hoster and if you look at me you would never know that I got it on or anything that you would have in your pockets.

[pjames32]

I have a 642 that shoots low with everything I've found. Will be trying a 195gr NOE SWC soon.
Carry lately has been mostly a 380 LCP. I like the size, but feel under gunned. Recently added a Rohrbaugh R9 to the safe. Same size as the LCP but in 9mm. As soon as it gets the required test loads thru it, it will be in my pocket.
PJ

[DoubleAdobe]

The SP101 is a good gun but as the OP stated, it is far too big for pocket carry. Even a 2" (2.25") SP101 with a bobbed hammer is a bit large/heavy for pocket carry (I know because I've done it)

As for the OP's 38 Special v. .357 mag question; I'd like to expand on that a bit.

There is no doubt that the .357 magnum produces far more energy than the 38 Special but comparison between the two has altered the perception of the 38 Special to an unrealistic point.
When talking about the 38 Special and the .357 Magnum one might be led to believe the 38 Special wouldn't penetrate a sheet of typing paper at 10' :o ! The 38 Special is a very versatile and effective cartridge and it is that versatility that has saved it from extinction in the face of the magnum. The 44 Magnum has almost killed off double action revolvers chambered in 44 Special, which is a shame because the 44 Special is an outstanding cartridge. The .357 magnum hasn't managed to harm the reputation of the 38 Special to the same degree as the 44 mag did to the 44 Special but it has changed the way people think about the 38 Special. There's a lot of value in the 38 Special cartridge and even out of a short barrel, it has proven to be a very effective cartridge.

I wouldn't discount the 38 Special simply because the magnum produces more energy.

Very well said, sir. A very capable and easily reloadable round.

[Forrest r]

I like the looks of your bulldog but can you carry that in you pocket the grip looks a little big for that

It's not bad, pachmayr makes an extremely thin grip for these for a even lower profile.

I prefer the 44spl over the 38spl & 357 in pocket revolvers. The 44spl snub noses will easily push lead 200gr/220gr bullets in the 850/900fps range. Buffalobore sells a 44spl sd load (200gr wc) that tested out @ 900fps+ in their snub nosed revolvers.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=99

Playing around with the snub nosed ca and a mihec 220grhbwc/power pistol combo. Shot @ 25ft into wet newspaper.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/44hbwcaround.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/44hbwcaround.jpg.html)

[alamogunr]

My pocket carry is a Seecamp LWS32. I carry it in a Rybka pocket holster. I bought 3 of them about 20 years ago. Gave one each to my sons.

Even as small as it is, I find that as I get older there is less hip to keep my pants up when carrying in my pocket. Seems that more than a little change in my pocket tends to cause them to list to starboard.

[Petrol & Powder]

I have a 642 that shoots low with everything I've found. Will be trying a 195gr NOE SWC soon.
Carry lately has been mostly a 380 LCP. I like the size, but feel under gunned. Recently added a Rohrbaugh R9 to the safe. Same size as the LCP but in 9mm. As soon as it gets the required test loads thru it, it will be in my pocket.
PJ


While a heavier bullet will generally shoot to a higher point of impact in a revolver when compared to a lighter bullet; a 195gr bullet is getting awfully heavy for an airweight snubnose. I think you'll find that the velocity will be disappointing and the recoil noticeable. If that 642 will not shoot 158gr. bullets to the P.O.A. when loaded to appropriate pressures I would consider a trip back to S&W. Of course you can also file the front sight down but I would eliminate all other problems before attempting that rather permanent solution.

[Blackwater]

One other option that hasn't been mentioned yet is the Taurus LCP M-738. I've been carrying on a daily basis for 30+ years, but mostly, in the early days it was just a Freedom Arms Mini .22 revolver. I was wearing suits then, and that was about the only thing I could carry and still have at least SOMETHING with me 100% of the time. Not a "stopper" by any means, but I always figured if someone got on top of me, pressing that muzzle against the abdomen and letting loose would get them off. With a contact wound, the muzzle blast and soot and all goes straight into the body cavity, multiplying the terminal effect dramatically. This was just a last ditch, all or nothing provision, but I took it rather than go naked.

Here on the coastal plain of SE Georgia, not far from Savannah, the summers are hot, sometimes VERY hot, and this complicates CCW. We wear light clothing, of course, and modern styles (all that's available unless you go to "tactical" clothing, which is a lot more expensive and kind'a telegraphs your intent too much for me) don't allow much room to carry, but I figured I needed something more than that little mini .22, so I got an early Kel Tec .32. It was a significant step up from the little mini .22, but still not much of a stopper, so I practiced head shots on a K-5 silhouette target. At least with this one, I didn't have to wait until someone was on top of me and do the contact wound thing.

After a while, though, this got less than confidence inspiring, so I looked for a compact, flat .380. I tried out 5 different models, and very comfortably settled on the little Taurus. This was rather a bit of a surprise for me, but the little Taurus LCP's trigger was the best and most controllable of the lot. It's pretty darn smooth for DA auto, and not too heavy nor too light (for safety). It just flat FIT, and I've proven its mettle on 4 rattlesnakes this year, all with head shots. No misses. AND, wonder of wonders, it shoots exactly to its little sights. That's another thing I like about this little gun. Its sights are small, since they HAVE to be to avoid the possibility of snagging on a quick draw, but they're just big enough to actually see and use - always a very, very nice attribute on such a small and moderately powered pistol. Again, I practice head shots on K-5 silhouettes, and these really aren't hard to achieve with this little gun's nice and very shootable trigger.

I also have an old pre-72 Colt DS, a really great little gun, but that cylinder's thickness makes it very difficult for me to carry in our infamous heat here. I got it mainly for winter carry where I might want/have to shoot from inside a pocket of a coat.

Choosing a carry gun isn't always a matter of opting for what we WANT to carry. Sometimes the best we can do and still be able to carry it 100% of the time winds up being a compromise, and my little Taurus fit the bill for my situation. Thank God there are so many compacts of all sorts out there so we can make good, intelligent choices these days. I know from experience that bad things always happen when you're least expecting it, so carrying 100% of the time is really our only rational option. I even keep the little .380 in my pocket while at home. That way, it's always under my control and reachable, whatever might transpire, and whenever it might happen. I'm not trigger happy but when a necessity arises, I'm not hesitant in the least either. That's another consideration, but we can't cover it all here.

If anyone is looking for a neat little gun most all of us can carry daily, with no exceptions, take a long hard look at the little Taurus. It sure surprised the heck out'a me, and I am VERY well pleased with how it shoots, should it ever be needed. After all, being accurate beyond my expectations, AND shooting to the sights is pretty darned important when you're toting a really small gun, and the little Taurus has impressed me enough that I can't help but sing its praises, prior expectations notwithstanding.

[cainttype]

The 38 Spcl lightweights are very difficult to beat in the pocket-gun role. I'm not aware of any auto that combines the small size and weight that can deliver the performance desired as well in this application.
The 158 LSWHP+P has been a longtime favorite for very good reason, but using well-designed soft-cast HPs even heavier (195-200gr) delivers results that are totally unexpected from such compact firearms...You almost have to see it to appreciate it.

[Texantothecore]

The 38 Spcl lightweights are very difficult to beat in the pocket-gun role. I'm not aware of any auto that combines the small size and weight that can deliver the performance desired as well in this application.
The 158 LSWHP+P has been a longtime favorite for very good reason, but using well-designed soft-cast HPs even heavier (195-200gr) delivers results that are totally unexpected from such compact firearms...You almost have to see it to appreciate it.


+1 on the .38 Many of the retired cops I know carry s&w air weights loaded with wadcutters. Very effective.

It is also one of the fun guns.
Fun guns:

.38 spl.
.357
.44 spl
.45 long colt

These guns tend to be shot because they are simply fun. Not sensitive to ammo and will shoot wax, gloolits, plastic and rubber bullets. Probably would shoot Cheez-Whiz if you wanted.

They are also great with black powder as well as modern powder and are exceptionally easy to reload.

[Artful]

I have some smaller handguns - I always find that the slimmer profile of an auto is easier to carry - the smallest two are Beretta 21A in 22LR and AMT 380 Backup - either will work in a pocket just fine. Pocket holsters are a good idea but you can either buy or alter some pants with a leather pocket specifically for your carry gun. I'm starting to play with the "sticky" holsters and they work well when you have the correct fit between your body and your pants, if the clothing isn't a correct fit they don't seem to work so well though.

[Shooter6br]

638 EDC 15 oz IWB holster. Don't leave home without it

[LUCKYDAWG13]

I have some smaller handguns - I always find that the slimmer profile of an auto is easier to carry - the smallest two are Beretta 21A in 22LR and AMT 380 Backup - either will work in a pocket just fine. Pocket holsters are a good idea but you can either buy or alter some pants with a leather pocket specifically for your carry gun. I'm starting to play with the "sticky" holsters and they work well when you have the correct fit between your body and your pants, if the clothing isn't a correct fit they don't seem to work so well though.
thanks I'm starting to think more about a small auto. i just cant do 380 not set up for it going to look at some 9mm this week

[Big Boomer]

I dabbled with everything from a 1911 to a Ruger P90 to a S&W M37 nickel plated for about 25 years. Now I carry a Sig P938 in 9mm. It is absolutely brutal when practice or drill shooting but with sierra JHPs it would be lethal in close quarters I think. At 75 years of age, unable to run and not much good in a fist-fight, it is about all I can handle and keep hid, though it was a bit pricey. And I never thought much of 9mms. Big Boomer

[LUCKYDAWG13]

I dabbled with everything from a 1911 to a Ruger P90 to a S&W M37 nickel plated for about 25 years. Now I carry a Sig P938 in 9mm. It is absolutely brutal when practice or drill shooting but with sierra JHPs it would be lethal in close quarters I think. At 75 years of age, unable to run and not much good in a fist-fight, it is about all I can handle and keep hid, though it was a bit pricey. And I never thought much of 9mms. Big Boomer

I will have a look at LGS and see if they have that little sig on hand

[FergusonTO35]

I spent some quality time with my Kahr CT380 today, fed it some Lee 356-102-1R and 356-95-RF over 3.1 grains Bullseye. That pistol is alot of fun to shoot, and this particular load consistently clocks 930-960 fps. Mine is 100% reliable after the break in period. Only thing I hate is that this pistol's DAO trigger is very sensitive to technique. Keep your eye on that front sight and give it a smooth steady pull, not so easy with XL hands and fingers. When you get it right though, the CT is amazingly accurate.

[Jeff82]

+1 on the NAH Mini-Mag. If that's not enough I carry a S&W Model 36.

[Jtarm]

Just bought my first, an S&W model 60 2" .38.

I dropped it in the pocket of my cargo shorts yesterday and pretty well forgot it was there. Probably different if I had to run and that pocket started flapping around.

Everyone on the S&W forum touts the Buffalo Bore .38 wadcutter for defense. I looked them up and nearly messed my drawers. They're a $1.50 per round. Supposedly the BB load delivers +P performance at standard pressures. But it looks to me like there's tons of wadcutter loads that can do the same thing..

I don't how non-reloaders are able to shoot.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

well Guys i put down on my new pocket gun today you know when you walk into a gun shop with just one gun in mind and
something else just calls out your name and buy me well i switched gears and got a Sig P938 SAS i just love it. and best of all
I got the OK from my accountant ( wife ) i would like to thank you all for all your posts

[Char-Gar]

I carry a 2" Smith and Wesson Chief Special in my front pocket during the hot summer down here. It rides in a DeSantis pocket holster. I have receintly added an old pair of Mustang grips, which take recoil absorption and therefore control to a whole new level. They add a mite of bulk but turn the little five shooter into a sweet shooting formidable weapon at any reasonable range. I like the grips so much I have hunted them up for my other two small revolvers.

My carry load is a full charge wadcutter. Hensley and Gibbs flat nose over 3.5/Bulleye.

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm not sure which Buffalo Bore load you're referring to but factory self-defense ammo tends to be expensive. Most people will buy and shoot enough to confirm function and accuracy and then practice with something that has similar recoil & ballistics for economy. Some people will simply duplicate a proven factory load (not a bad course) and some people will make something that isn't proven but looks and sounds cool (generally a bad idea).

I'm not much into fads or hot new trends when it comes to ammunition. The "FBI" load (AKA Treasury Load, Dallas Load, Chicago Load, blah, blah, blah) has been in use since 1972 and it has a very good track record. It is a 158 grain, soft lead, semi-waddcutter, hollowpoint driven to +P velocities. [+P LSWCHP]. There's nothing exotic or novel about it, other than the fact that it has been repeatedly proven to work!
Remington currently makes a version labeled "High Terminal Performance" which seems to be identical to their older R38S12 load. Winchester still catalogs their X38SPD load and Federal did make one but I haven't seen it since the Nyclad cartridges went to the 125 gr loadings. I'm sure other companies make something similar.
There are some other loads that have shown good results like the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel load and some of the older versions of the Federal Nyclad.

My bias is not due to the loads themselves, which may prove to be very good, but more about their lack of history.
A short barreled 38 Special is an outstanding tool but one that requires the best possible performance from its ammunition. It is the overall track record that is the best predictor of future performance rather than a few select events.
There are good arguments for using soft full wadcutters driven as fast as the gun can safely handle and there are very good arguments for the 158gr +P LSWCHP [FBI Load].
The short barreled 38 Special does its best work around 158 grains and that's not just dogma & tradition talking. While lighter bullets can be driven faster they often fail to penetrate even at those higher velocities. Heavier bullets are slower and even with their greater mass and resulting recoil, often do not perform as well as the 155-160 grain bullets.
If one needs to correct a high shooting, fixed sighted snubnose, the 135 Grain Speer Gold Dot is an option. Outside of that load, most of the proven rounds are in the 158 grain range.

Speaking of snubnose loads, someone will always tout the Hollow Based Wadcutter loaded backwards in the casing. I experimented with that years ago and I was very displeased with the actual results. One, the bullet was extremely unstable past about 10 yards and when it actually hit the paper it would often keyhole. Two, the terminal performance in water, wet newspaper, pine boards and other media was disappointing. The soft skirt would inevitably separate or fold back on itself and the resulting penetration was often less than solid wadcutters of the same weight / velocity. I think people see that big hollow base and assume that it would translate into a great hollow point but I didn't find that to be true in reality.

[hp246]

I'll throw something a bit different into the mix. My carry gun for bad situations is a Sig P-220 in .45 ACP. For years, my pocket gun was a S & W J Frame. But recently, I picked up a Beretta Pico in .380. I carry it everyday in my suit pants front pocket. It doesn't print through clothing. Very flat. Not much thicker than my I Phone. Shoots pretty well. Long double action trigger pull, but then it is not a target gun. These pocket guns are pretty much just enough to make a bit of noise and make the bad guy think twice.

[cainttype]

Heavies from snub 38 Specials can be VERY dependable.
These results are typical of this HP and accompanied by serious penetration, every time. This "heavy" HP exits a 5 shot 2" S&W at 710-725 fps using 4.5 grains of Unique. It hits VERY hard and goes DEEP...all out of proportion to it's diminutive size.
The low flash/muzzle blast could be considered an advantage since the typical encounter is most likely to be after dark.
Again, you almost need to witness the destructive capability of pocket 38s when pushing properly designed heavies... I'm very comfortable and confident with these after shooting them extensively for over 30 years.

[Petrol & Powder]

The old British 38/200 which is a 38 S&W based cartridge not a 38 Special casing, pushed a 200 grain bullet about 100fps slower in a 4" barrel but at around 13,000 psi. That load in a 38 Special (193 gr bullet at 725 fps) is basically the 38/200 on steroids.

4.5 grains of Unique seems close to the edge with that heavy of a bullet but with the extra case capacity of the larger 38 Special casing and a SAAMI limit of 20,000 psi for the 38 Special +P you might be OK.
SAAMI lists the max pressure for a 200 grain bullet in standard 38 Special loadings at 17,000 psi but they don't give a rating for a 200 grain bullet and +P.
I don't doubt your results but I'd want to know the pressures involved. Getting 725 fps out of a 2" revolver barrel and an almost 200 grain bullet with 4.5 grains of Unique, is not something I would try.

How's the P.O.I. vs. the P.O.A. ?
How's the recoil ?
Any signs of over pressure (flattened primers, sticking cases)

[Artful]

Sig P938 sas should be a good choice - what inside the pocket holster have you settled on?

[cainttype]

The old Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook lists 4.5 gr of Unique with the 195 gr 358430 at 16000 cup, within standard pressues. Using a universal receiver and a 7.75" barrel the muzzle velocity listed is 830 fps.
The later #3 Edition doesn't have any "heavies", but does list +P loads from the mid-17Ks up to 18,500 cup.

Recoil is no problem for a seasoned handgunner, and muzzle blast is minimal. POI is raised slightly compared to lighter combinations, but isn't really an issue.
Having used this load combination for 30+ years in multiple firearms, there has never been any sign of excess pressure. The chronographed velocities are accurate and repeatable, so it really isn't difficult if someone wants to experiment with heavies to find 700+ fps from a compact 38.

I have introduced quite a few people to this combo over the years. "Shock and awe" is the typical reaction... They never fail to impress.

[Petrol & Powder]

I can't argue with results.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Sig P938 sas should be a good choice - what inside the pocket holster have you settled on?
I think this one http://www.alabamaholster.com/product/front-pocket-holster/ then i may get some thing from El Paso Saddlery
for IWB

[Jtarm]

It's not bad, pachmayr makes an extremely thin grip for these for a even lower profile.

I prefer the 44spl over the 38spl & 357 in pocket revolvers. The 44spl snub noses will easily push lead 200gr/220gr bullets in the 850/900fps range. Buffalobore sells a 44spl sd load (200gr wc) that tested out @ 900fps+ in their snub nosed revolvers.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=99

Playing around with the snub nosed ca and a mihec 220grhbwc/power pistol combo. Shot @ 25ft into wet newspaper.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/44hbwcaround.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/44hbwcaround.jpg.html)

Hey Forrest,

I have that MiHec mold but haven't used it yet.

Got any load data you can share?

Thanks!

[Mytmousemalibu]

For what its worth, I carry the latest rendition of the Smith & Wesson M&P Bodyguard 380, sans-laser model. Its very compact and light, 12oz comes to mind. I didn't want the bulk of the laser and it looks nicer without as a plus, and slightly cheaper. It has some very nice upgrades in it too. I installed the RTK short-stroke Trigger set, spring kit, tool steel firing pin and a couple Mag-Guts kits making it a 7+1 now. The trigger kit made this gun happen! Wouldn't carry it in factory trim. I pocket carry with a sticky holster but mostly my own IWB Kydex holster (and spare mag) in appendix carry. In the hot Kansas months, I wear light clothing and need a very concealable gun, otherwise I would carry some heavier firepower. That said, many folks look down on the little .380ACP. It is a challenging round to make perform to FBI/IWBA specs since it can drive a hollow point to expand well but falls short on penetration with most ammo. FMJ and hard cast will blow clean holes through your target but with little trauma. I'm not a "gimmick ammo" fanboy but the one company I trust has given the .380 a potent option, Lehigh Defense. I keep my little M&P full of Lehigh Xtreme Penetrators. I trust my life to that round and have faith it will do the job! Excellent penetration and long track hollow point like damage. It's solid copper, nothing to clog, nothing to fail to expand, its FMJ reliable really. If you carry a .380, you should be looking into the XP's. Watch some of the ballistic gel tests. Only downside, cost. But Lehigh now sells the .355 XP bullets so I can load my own and practice cheaper!

[FergusonTO35]

My Kahr really likes the Lee 356-95-RF driven to 930 fps over 3.1 grains Bullseye. My mold drops 'em right at .357, I run them through the .357 die anyway just to weed out the occasional undersized one. Dip lube in LLA thinned with mineral spirits and you're good to go.

Speaking of pocket guns, I now have a Glock 42 with night sights on layaway. I really hope it likes this load also.

[35remington]

The old Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook would be considered "in error" today. The load using the heavy bullet and Unique at 4.5 grains would now be considered Plus P, not standard pressure. A good number of loads in the Lyman CBH are now considered to be Plus P when they were listed as standard pressure formerly.

Better pressure measuring equipment is likely the reason for the change. Lyman would disallow the older data.

[cainttype]

The old Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook would be considered "in error" today. The load using the heavy bullet and Unique at 4.5 grains would now be considered Plus P, not standard pressure. A good number of loads in the Lyman CBH are now considered to be Plus P when they were listed as standard pressure formerly.

Better pressure measuring equipment is likely the reason for the change. Lyman would disallow the older data.


The #3 Edition tracks every similar 38 Special load listed in the CBH very closely, although using linotype instead of #2 alloy. Identical mould/powder combos are almost copies, including pressure data. The fact that heavies aren't shown in #3 was more a popularity issue than an over-pressure problem.
I'd like to see reputable published evidence testing this load (or anything closely resembling it) that indicates anything different. Until that time, I'll be just as happy even IF they could be considered +P... but until that time, I'll stick with tested data until it can be proven faulty.

This combo has been used extensively for 30+ years in multiple 38 Specials, mostly compacts. There has NEVER been any issues, no signs of excess pressure or firearm failures.
It's a little difficult to worry about a load I've used so long that has a proven safety and performance record.
I would definitely be interested in any new data from current industy-standard pressure testing equipment, although the equipment being used in the 1980s was not exactly stone-age (it was state of the art at that time). Until then, I'll continue to use what I know works and works well.

There is a definite place for properly designed heavies in this role. If more people were able to test such things there would be many converts. I have no doubt about it.