flint lock help

[Bullshop]

OK we won the auction. Pictures are of the rifle a 69 cal smooth bore. We will try it smooth first and see how that goes.
Here is the deal, I have exactly Z E R O experiance with a flinter. I would appreciate any and all advice on loading, specialty tools, tricks, and about anything that may be helpfull in steepening the learning curve.
Now a kinda question about pan powder. I cant get black powder on any kind of regular basis. I have managed to stash away a half case of Goex cartridge grade. What I am thinking I will try to do unless someone here stops me is run some through my old iron food mill. This mill is adjustable and can be set to grind down flower if wanted. I often use it to grind coffie. I would do a very small amount at a time and be sure to wear my sun glasses.
Would like to hear pro's and con's on that idea.
Also I would like to know where to get flint. I remember long ago reading I think it was the Dixie catalog and they had large chunks of raw flint. Simple question is at age 53 will I live long enough to learn how to knap a flint? Maybe just hit it with a 12 lb hammer and a couple of the many peaces will be right. Where is a good place to find tools for this sort of thing?
Maybe a smooth bore is a good idea. seems very versatile.
They have been making black powder for what about 600 years, and flint for a bit longer.
Anyway help us out if yer so inclined, and check out the musket we got and let us know what ya think. Looks to me like somethin somebody made up from scratch.
Blessings
BIC/BS



http://pictures.auctionarms.com/346458/b02fe51153c1bea8379211f2d5c62df5.jpg?aa=2008031813 5045
http://pictures.auctionarms.com/346458/a2b7a9f7258a8f3b18521065cbc04dc7.jpg?aa=2008031813 5045
http://pictures.auctionarms.com/346458/b22b560edbbb7bf64111e6d7ab7d7edf.jpg?aa=2008031813 5045
http://pictures.auctionarms.com/346458/cce08e4409ae848f8041499a15686200.jpg?aa=2008031813 5045
http://pictures.auctionarms.com/346458/af855df776b1ca9184a7f084d8efeec3.jpg?aa=2008031813 5045
http://pictures.auctionarms.com/346458/18acd01c30efe702042685b58ed08ff1.jpg?aa=2008031813 5045
http://pictures.auctionarms.com/346458/d94229f00fcffa1ff6611ae3add8ae5b.jpg?aa=2008031813 5045
http://pictures.auctionarms.com/346458/af89c965c60cd088668cd3376b542d78.jpg?aa=2008031813 5045
http://pictures.auctionarms.com/346458/3839d8b2f6388a942b0a66b3f48c0597.jpg?aa=2008031813 5045
http://pictures.auctionarms.com/346458/cc1a5aa8d9229768b67758f8555b0294.jpg?aa=2008031813 5045

[R.M.]

Flinters are a hoot. Yes there is a learning curve, and there are several traditional muzzleloading sites that can get you up to speed.
Have fun, and make smoke.

[jackley]

Dixie gun works and Track of the Wolf is on line. They can get you flints, at Track of the Wolf they are real nice folks will help in any way they can. For pan powder you need FFFF for the gun FF. You'll need a 1/2 " brass rod for knapping the flint a small piece of leather to put your flint in your hammer. I would get a range rod for loading and cleaning when not hunting. A primming horn and powder horn. Some pillow ticking and you should be all set.

Now don't flinch on that first shot!

Jerry

[Guido4198]

Don't know about the mill you mention, but if you choose wisely...it is certainly possible to carefully grind your cartridge grade powder to something finer. I use 3f Goex in my 50 cal flintlock for BOTH the main charge, AND the priming charge. Doesn't take much. Many folks put too much powder in that pan. You only want to make a flash there, not a big explosion. Your main charge is going to be set off by flame passing through the touchhole, not by the burniong of a "train" of powder in the pan. As to flints....I buy mine new and ready to go. Once they've been shot a while, I use a tool I made from a nail along with a small hammer to knap the edge back to what it needs to be...nice and "square". When match shooting, I make it a practice to wipe the frizzen face and pan, and "pick out" the touchhole between shots. Might not always be necessary to do all that between every shot, but it helps my confidence level, AND...my rifle goes off everytime.
Hope this helps....
Don

[nicholst55]

A lot of folks prime their flinchlocks right from the main powder horn, me included. The 4F (FFFFg) priming powder absorbs moisture like there's no tomorrow. On a rainy or extremely humid day you'll have to wipe the wet goop out of your pan periodically if you prime with 4F.

You'll need to experiment to see if your lock sparks better with the flints bevel up, or bevel down. There is no hard and fast 'correct' way, just whatever your lock prefers.

A good habit to develop is to carry something - a toothpick, bird's feather, or whatever. When loading, begin the sequence by inserting your feather (etc) into the vent, and leave it there until you're finished loading. This promotes consistent ignition.

Here's a very informative website - the author has decades of experience at this, and smoothbores are one of his favorites:

http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html

I can also recommend a couple of e-mail groups that specialize in muzzleloading, if you're interested. E-mail me for info.

Enjoy that smokepole!

[madcaster]

Dan,if you are going to grind some powder please do it in very SMALL batches,we need you around to poke fun at!:-D

[floodgate]

Dan:

Try the powder you have, as-is, (what granulation is it? FFFg is recommended, FFg will work OK, and I have even primed a large musket lock with Fg) with the pan only filled no higher than the BOTTOM of the flash-hole. Buy the flints from Track of the Wolf in two or three sizes, to be sure of getting a fit. Gauge the bore with a set of calipers; one of us can probably come up with an RB mould to loan you, or Dixie can sell you an "el cheapo" scissors mould that will work OK if they list one about 0.010" under bore diameter. Keep us posted!

OH yes, DO wear eye protection; many years back, my wife had the embarrassing task of explaining a scratch on her right eyeball (not serious, fortunately) from firing her "Brown Bess" without glasses, to an ophthamologist. And DON'T let the Jrs. or the Mrs. stand to the right, in line with the flash-hole - that fire can reach out several feet!

Have fun!

Doug

[JeffinNZ]

But MOST importantly......if you can hear the lock functioning it is too slow. Tune the lock so all the bearing surfaces are like mirrors then lube with something ultra slippery and keep it that way.

[StrawHat]

You will find out in short order if your iron food mill makes sparks.

Aat one time a ceramic mortar and pestle was sold to grind powder to prime. Haven't seen one for years.

FFFg has always worked as prime for many of us.

Another place to shop

http://www.logcabinonline.com/intro.html

Family run company, now being run by the sons of the founder.

Good people.

[2muchstuf]

These guys all know what they're talking about. I too don't know about that mill!
A friend has been using the morter and pestle suscessfully for years. I like english flint, never had luck with the cut agate stuff, some do. Also had good luck picking shards of flint out of a field that is littered with them not far from my home.
I believe .54 is the size when you should consider going with coarser powder, 2F might be best for you.

Heed the warning about the touch hole! I spritsed a guy once, no real harm done, but it wasn't such a good time for him.....EVERY ONE SHOULD WEAR SAFETYGLASSES!!!!!!!!!

Have fun, they really are a hoot.:-D

[Blammer]

when priming your pan you should have a VERY thin layer of BP on the bottom of the pan to the touch hole.

I usually use the commercal 4 F stuff. Only takes a little. Instead of grinding, sift through your BP and see about getting some of the really small stuff out of the bottom. That may work easier for you.

After pan is primed and frizzen is down, i usually tip my rifle to "move" the powder towards the flash hole, just to make sure some is there.

I use the cut agrigate flint and it works fine. For me bevel up works good and bevel down works well too but I think bevel up is more consistent for me.

[northmn]

I looked at the pictures. The gun looks like one of the early Century Arms type repos. I ve seen the lock stlyle on various "pirate pistols" as well. I would like to know where it is made and a little more history just out of curiosity. You need to use black in the pan and at least as a priming charge under pyrodex or 777. I would recommend that you grind with a morter and pestle in small anounts. Use a Dowel and a food dish. Pioneer powder is advertised to work with flintlocks. I have no experience and cannot say for sure. I really doubt if the gun is worth paying the extra dollars to have the barrel rifled. Sorry but I feel I should pass that along. Many of these guns worked, a few needed the frizzen hardenend. Try it and see. The one lock I had like that sparked like a demon some did not. The gun should be a lot of fun once you get the needed supplies. 69 is 14 gauge in case you want to try shot. Otherwise you can try wadding up tissue paper etc.

Northmn

[madcaster]

GREAT point Blammer,the method you mention is SAFER as well!

[Bullshop]

I think the powder I have,Goex cartridge, is just a uniform grade of ffg. I did find a can of old Hodgdons fffg from Scottland. I will try that in the pan.
Thanks you guys have sure been a big help. I am a lot leary about grinding powder.
BIC/BS

[405]

BS Sr.
As you know you'll learn best by doing. Kinda tough recommending techniques on flintlocks.... they all vary so much. You'll find that the "lock time" is really very, very slow- from the time the trigger lets the hammer go until the main charge fires. Experimenting with the pan charge, keeping the flash hole clean, adjusting the flint for max spark, etc. can help to speed the process up but no matter how well it all operates.... experienced shooters immediately notice the long time until the whole works get the bullet going. Seems like a "hang fire" everytime you pull the trigger. :mrgreen: You'll also notice a lot of "extra fireworks" from the pan charge firing and the smoke spouting from the flash hole. Just takes a good follow through when shooting.

The advice on getting some pre-made flints is a good one.... as is trying the way they are clamped in the hammer. You can practice re-shaping them as they chip and wear. Chipping a nice leading edge is not too hard. Chipping good flats on both sides.... so the purchase by the hammer clamp is solid.... is the hardest part.

Getting a large lead knuckle balling "BB" to fly true.... just have to see what happens :).... might be pretty good if that knuckle ball veers the same way each shot :mrgreen:

Sounds like fun... let us know how it goes. good luck

[madcaster]

Thanks 405!I wuz planin on gettn that flintlock from ole Dan cheeeep!I think ya jus helpd ole Smiley Stamper out![smilie=1:
Dan knoz IM jokin folks,have no feer!

[KCSO]

First off HEAT from the priming is what sets off the main charge so you don't want a powder tran effect. Keep the priming from covering the touchhole. The thouchhole itself should be just above the center of the pan and should be about a #52 drill size. Bevel up or down on the flint depends on the lock geometry. You want the flint to scrape as much of the frizzen as possible and dump the scraping dead center in the pan if possible. I did an article one time on tuning a flinter and i will see if I can find it and post it for you.

[freedom475]

I strongly suggest that you conserve on your real black powder if supply is limited.

I have used Pyrodex "P" in my flinter ( while waiting for my order of black from Graf's) as the main charge and the primer. It is not totally reliable but it does work if you have a good spark.

If you use just a little (5gr.-20gr.The less the better) of the black that you have as a starter and as the prime. And a substitute that is available in your area ( I think it may be easier to mail) as the main charge you should have good luck and your black will last a long time.

I have good luck with my 2F as a primer and I believe it's because ,as already stated, the powder gives a "flash" rather than a fuse to the vent, because the large 2f can't get into the hole like 4F.

Rocklocks are the most fun and probly do more for your shooting than anything else you can do.

Take care have fun. Oh and make sure to use "NATURAL" lubes and oils of some kind ......NOT petroleum... this really adds to the enjoyment and cleans up the smell.

About flint making...An old man spent a lot of time with me teaching me to flintknap arrowheads and other tools so I do make my own flints but I still cannot do it very well and all of them come out very bloody! I still have some of the flint he gave me but I turn it into dust a lot faster than into anything else.

I have yet to try it in my flintlock but "Black Slate" rock makes a better spark with my Flint&Steel fire starter kit than flint does. So you might look around and experiment with some of your native stones, many of which won't take much shapeing, and may work better.

Added 3/20.... I just had to try it so last night I made up a flint out of Slate and tried it..( i guess it's slate, it's black stone that is all over my ranch left by the Indians, much of it has been "worked" and have found a lot of arrowheads and knives/scrapers made from it). Not obsidian.

The rock worked but not very reliable, might be a little tough on the frizzen also. Good to know, if you broke or lost your flint you'd be a lot better off than the man who lost his percussion caps!

[StrawHat]

I did an article one time on tuning a flinter and i will see if I can find it and post it for you.

I, too, would enjoy reading that article. Always willing to learn, more.

[Old Ironsights]

Here you go. Best article on the net. http://www.chuckhawks.com/flintlocks.htm

Flintlocks: How to Shoot Them

By Paul Vallandigham



Sadly, there is such a lack of information about how to shoot traditional muzzleloading guns, both flintlocks and percussion guns, that the consumer is left with whatever is the newest fad, and whatever the clerk at the local Wal-Mart doesn't know about guns. Cap and ball guns are close enough to cartridge guns, and even to the in-line actions, that clerks can't steer you too far wrong if you choose to buy a modern rifle or double-barreled percussion shotgun.

But, put a flintlock on the shelf and no one knows how to make it go bang, beyond that you have to put this rock in the cock (hammer), and hope it sparks, and hope the sparks hit the powder in the priming pan, and then hope the main charge in the barrel is ignited. It all sounds like so much hard work that consumers just don't want the guns anymore...

Long and good.

[waksupi]

I don't agree on slow lock time. A properly tuned flinter, is every bit as fast as a caplock.

[madcaster]

AMEN Waksupi!I agree with you,respectfully of the opposite viewpoint...

[405]

I don't agree on slow lock time. A properly tuned flinter, is every bit as fast as a caplock.

Uhhhh.... the mechanics and physics say otherwise... not to mention experience with shooting both... but whatever.

[northmn]

Mostly I agree with what some say, however the amount of priming depends somewhat on the placement of the touchhole (vent) in regards to the pan. Some of the early flinters were bad about that. I saw one with the vent located at the bottom of the pan. I used to make a few dollars installing special liners to make them go off correctly. The powder should be put in so that it is at the bottom of the hole, otherwise as others mention you will get the sssst boom of a fusing action. I made knapping hammers out of 3/8 square keystock and put a screw driver blade in for a handle to regularly knap my flints. This is done when the flint gets dull after so many shots and needs resharpening. You tap the edge of the flint gently and flake off a few pieces until it is sharp again. The screw driver handle was made to replace flints if needed and combined one tool. I used to shoot flintlocks in competition against percussion and more than held my own. They are fun.
A point was brought up on tuning a flintlock. That requires a little knowledge and experience. The flint should be pointing at the center of the pan when in the fired position. The frizzen spring should give enough tension to hold the frizzen solidly on the pan and yet open when hit. The flint should almost have a shearing action against the pan. Also the frizzen should snap open anywhere from between 1/3 to 1/2 open. To ger these results have often required heating and bending the cock, and moving or changing the frizzen spring. Another little trick I have used is to increase tension on a weak frizzen spring by installing a roller in the frizzen. I have heard that each lock has a different personality, which means some are not made well. One lock I worked on for another person had springs so strong that it shattered the flints. That took careful grinding of both the frizzen spring and mainspring. A beginner will not be doing much tuning.
By the way Waksupi is correct, the later English style flintlocks were found to be faster than some of the bolster breeched percussion such as in Hawkins. They were compared and electronically timed. The flintlock has its ignition directly in the barrel where the longer flash hole of these percussions delay the timing. Many match shooters use underhammers or mule ear percussions to speed up ignition because of that. Also a flintlock will not foul out as bad with a lot of shooting. I have seen percussions that need to be boiled out after a days shooting because of breech fouling. They can hangfire as bad as any flint.


Good luck have fun.

Northmn

[Old Ironsights]

Uhhhh.... the mechanics and physics say otherwise... not to mention experience with shooting both... but whatever.

Uhh, mechanics & Physics say exactly that.

"Flintlocks are actually faster to fire than a percussion gun, all things being equal. By that I mean, if you have two side lock actions, one flint and other percussion, and the flintlock is tuned properly (has the flint mounted properly in the cock, has a good frizzen that sparks, the angle of the cock will throw the sparks into the middle of the priming pan, and the main charge has been poked with a vent pick to allow more than one granule of powder to be ignited by the priming charge at one time), the main charge in a flintlock will be burning before the hammer on the percussion gun strikes the percussion cap. The priming powder ignites and in turn ignites the main charge in the barrel before the cock finishes its stroke and comes to a rest. The percussion gun, by design, has to strike the cap between the hammer and the nipple to cause ignition, so the flintlock has to fire sooner. Flintlocks fire quicker, lock time being equal."

Think too about the FACT that the flame from the cap has to make a 90deg corner before getting to the charge where the heat-pulse from the Flinter-pan has a straight shot at the main charge.

The BIGGEST problem with a flinter is NOT the ignition speed or lock speed, but having a properly tuned lock, flint & decently hardened frizzen combo.

Lousy spark, lousy ignition. Massive Spark, Instant Ignition. :mrgreen:

Really. Read the article I posted the link to. Paul knows his stuff.

[freedom475]

Here you go. Best article on the net. http://www.chuckhawks.com/flintlocks.htm

Flintlocks: How to Shoot Them

By Paul Vallandigham


Thank you for posting this article! This is very good reading!

Never saw the day when my Flint would outrun my percussion (ignition time) but maybe I've been doing it wrong all these years.

I have noticed that my touch hole is very low in the bottom of my pan, I've had some instantanious ignitions but then the next shot will "hang" and I've never figured out why. Hope that the info in this great article will go a long way towards giving me better results.

Hang fires or not, the flint is one of my most shot and enjoyed of all my collection.