Leading with my cast reloads

[usmc0811]

I started off making my cast bullets using straight wheel weights I got from the local auto shop. I poured my lead into a Lee 175 TC mold I bought and they were dropping out at right around 180gr. I then lubed them using LLA then resizing with my .401 resizing die then re lubed. I then loaded them up using Hodgdon's Titegroup 4.2-4.3gr
C.O.L 1.125-1.126. At the range all I had available to shoot from was the 50yrd, so I used a rest to see what type of groups I would get. My first session I managed to get 20 out of 30 on the paper which was just white printer paper size. I then took the pistol apart to look at the barrel and noticed leading already. I continued to shoot with the accuracy getting worse and worse, either due to the leading or me shaking. Overall I shot 170 rounds and my barrel looks horrible. What could be the issue causing the leading? Improper bullet size, not enough lube, too soft of lead??? When I would put the bullets up through the sizing die most of them when up into it very easy as if they were under sized. The leading was more towards the end of the barrel like the last 1-2". Would powder coating stop this issue? How should I clean the lead from barrel. Thanks for any help.140125140126140127140128

[cs86]

What did the barrel slug at for groove diameter?

[plainsman456]

When found towards the muzzle it usually means that the lube is gone.

Did you slug your barrel?

I use ww's and several types of powder and have not seen any leading,so i don't think hardness/softness is a problem.

[just_shooter]

First slug your barrel, then try powder coating. Definitely will solve the problem.

[usmc0811]

I have not slugged the barrel and not to sure how to. I think there was plenty of lube on the bullets as it was easily visible on the rounds and I've heard you should just barely see it.

[dubber123]

Some like LLA, many do not. I am in the latter camp. There is a VERY good chance you need a larger boolit than .401". What do they fall from the mold at? If they are .403" or so, I would suggest you lube twice with the LLA, and try to load a few without sizing. If they chamber easily, shoot away.

I much prefer a lubrisizer, but LLA should work for milder loads. I have a friend that goes about 500 rounds between cleaning in his .40 Glock, (stock barrel). I am guessing you have a fitment issue. Good luck, and have fun!

[cs86]

1st step is to slug the barrel. Do a search on it and also read the stickies.

Quick run down on slugging:
Cast a bullet of pure lead or use an empty 40cal case and fill it up with pure lead. Knock it out of the case with a bullet puller and use that for a slug.

Use a brass rod and pound the slug through the barrel. Then check the OD of the slug with a micrometer to understand what size your groove diameter is. You need to be .001 to .002 over groove diameter. If you don't have this then you will get leading.

[gloob]

I think today's knowledge base for loading and shooting cast bullets is plain wrong. Most of the theory is just fine, but the practice is still a mix of indirect solutions riddled with magical thinking and incorrect conclusions based on stuff that has worked for folks over decades - some of the time. It's not necessarily efficient, practical, or problem-based, and it completely loses focus on a very important issue, probably the number 1 issue for reloaders in modern times who are shooting modern semiautomatics. Seven responses, already, and it has yet to be mentioned.

In my opinion, the most likely problem is that your expander plug is too small. Modern die manufacturers are selling you stuff for jacketed bullets.

It is pretty unlikely a 40SW bore is oversized by a full mil or more. It is pretty unlikely that a 402 bullet would fit your chamber, anyway. There is a lot more variation in 9mm bores and chambers, for instance, with its simultaneous adoption via various handguns made by various manufacturers in various countries. 40SW was seeded by a couple of companies in modern times, and the dimensions across manufacturers are pretty tight.

I wouldn't slug the bore, first. First, I would suggest you look at your ammo. Is there any visible coke-bottle effect where the base of the bullet sits? Put some calipers on the expander. Does it measure .398"? If you answered yes to both of those questions, you have a problem with the expander. You can go ahead and slug your bore, now, if you still want to. But you already know the expander has to be addressed, and it is likely to be the only problem.

Browse this sticky
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?124464-38-357-Lee-powder-through-expander-in-9mm-die-mod
Ask yourself why these guys are going through this much trouble. Notice that lots of people are also using the Lee 38SW expander for their cast bullets. Know that the 38SW expander is 356 in diameter, a full 3 mils larger than standard plugs, the full diameter of a standard 356 bullet, and nominally is it 1-2 mils bigger even then the standard bore size of a 9mm. Doesn't this reduce neck tension? Don't you have to be 2 mils smaller than the bullet? No and no.

40SW is trickier, because there are few to no off-the-shelf solutions. Apparently, 401" bullets weren't popular in the black powder era.

[leeggen]

Gloob I hate to differ with you but the knowledge base here if add together would exceed thousands of years. I beleive you might want to do some more reading about 40 S&W's. A barrel dia. of .401 will need a .001 to .002 oversize boolit. USMC check out the search engine and search 40S&W by Char Gar and a few others of the older reloaders. LLA is what I use but I do use a .403 boolit size and with little to no leading, as does many others on here. You do need to slug your barrel a guess would say it is probably .4015 dia. but check to make sure. Just search slugging a barrel and you will learn how to do it.
Good luck and any questions just ask on here and you will fine great help.
CD

[gloob]

Interesting. What does your bore slug out to? And what are you using for an expander!?

I have a Lee seater die where a .402 bullet wouldn't even allow the case to fit in the body of the die. I have a Glock where a 402 bullet would not fit, and I even have to toss some of my thicker cases with 401 bullets. I have also not heard before of grossly oversized 40 bores, like with 9mm, so I'm sorry for jumping to conclusions but am not embarrassed to be standing here with my pants down. :) I have failed to find any oversize expanders for 40SW, either, (as can be found for 9mm) and that's not for lack of trying.

I'm not knocking on the knowledge base. The info is here, but you have to dig for it. The active "talk" is focused on 30's revolvers era practices concerning gun and dies and tolerances that were different, and the focus falls well away from what I still think is the biggest major problem with loading cast bullets, today, which is modern die dimensions regarding sizer and expander.

Some manufacturers offer "cowboy dies" that leave the cases bigger. Yet when it comes to reloading cast bullets in modern semiauto calibers using way undersized, short, and thick cases, a reloading book or an experienced reloader might make a passing suggestion that "you might want to flare the case mouth more to make sure the bullet isn't shaved." That don't cut it, unless your chamber is big enough to stuff in 2-3 mil over-bore bullets.

[MT Gianni]

I have 2 40's, one has to have a .402 and the other will only chamber a .401 bullet.
To clean your bbl get a copper choregirl from the grocery store, wrap a few strands around a good brush and use elbow grease to remove it along with whatever cleaning solvent you prefer.

[duckey]

I had the same issue but WORSE leading after 50 rounds, same bullet your using. I didn't lube those 50 rounds so I finally found some Alox and that did the trick. Since then I have been sizing through a Lee .401 sizer but haven't shot any of the sized bullets yet. My pistol is a Sig P229. I have been shooting Bullseye powder, can't remember grains off hand. I used load data from the pages of M.D Smith. When sizing I found that most of the bullets went through without much resistance with several needing a bit more pressure on the press handle. I am not sure what the hardness of my lead was as I was using a mixture of lead I found.....I have a feeling it was on the softer side as I look back to what I smelted down (some decoy strap weights...soft). You may (if you haven't already) try 2 coats of Alox, one before sizing and one after

[RogerDat]

Just a thought (not disagreeing with slug bore just bring up an alternative) Some folks dip the bullets in LLA or better yet the 45/45/10 mix made from it. Then just set them up to dry. If as was suggested end of barrel leading was an indication of running out of lube then filling that bullets one lube groove and coating the limited base in the TC shape by dipping might work better. The lube coating the cone shape really does not make contact with the barrel.

Poor fit of bullet to barrel is not remedied with lube. One other thing one might try (got this from another member for upsizing 9mm to 38) Squish the bullet down and wider a little bit. Most easily approached with a drill press used like a press (motor off, plain bar instead of drill) adjust stop to squish the same amount each time the chuck is brought down. Can be done with tube or board with hole that the bullet can go in and be smashed only to the length of the guide when tapped with a hammer. Point is make a few bullets a touch shorter but wider by squishing, see if it shoots better at a larger diameter.

Swaging to increase diameter for your guys that like to squish lead rather than melt it.

[duckey]

I should clarify....the lead that leaded my barrel was potentially to soft. Since then I have been using range scrap with better results i.e clean barrel and good accuracy.

[popper]

Coating may help but you need a proper dimensioned expander. I'm assuming ACWW which takes a month or so to get hard. Case will make the boolit smaller. Water dropping may help. I use a 41 'M' plug that a machinist cut down to the proper size for me. Several here make plugs for various sizing die. 9's & 40's typically run out of gas (pressure) to the end of the barrel so no obturation takes place there and lube is blown off & gas cutting occurs. It's worse with the faster powder. I have heard that BLL (floor wax & LLA) works pretty good & isn't sticky. I reccommend HiTek coating over PC for pistol due to ease of applying. I've done both.

[BattleRife]

I started off making my cast bullets using straight wheel weights I got from the local auto shop. I poured my lead into a Lee 175 TC mold I bought and they were dropping out at right around 180gr. I then lubed them using LLA then resizing with my .401 resizing die then re lubed. I then loaded them up using Hodgdon's Titegroup 4.2-4.3gr

There have been some very significant threads on this forum over the last few years detailing the potential headaches and possible solutions for loading lead bullets in .40 S&W. Based on these, your choice of sizing die, lube and powder are all suspect.

Use Google advanced search to search this site for .40 S&W topics, particularly those that contain geargnasher's name.

[usmc0811]

Yes they were all wheel weights that I used, but they have been sitting to get harder for about 2-3 months. I also have been dropping them in water to help with hardness as soon as they fall from the mold. I will have to look into the HiTek coating and was already thinking about the BLL. If all else fails then I might just do the PC.

Coating may help but you need a proper dimensioned expander. I'm assuming ACWW which takes a month or so to get hard. Case will make the boolit smaller. Water dropping may help. I use a 41 'M' plug that a machinist cut down to the proper size for me. Several here make plugs for various sizing die. 9's & 40's typically run out of gas (pressure) to the end of the barrel so no obturation takes place there and lube is blown off & gas cutting occurs. It's worse with the faster powder. I have heard that BLL (floor wax & LLA) works pretty good & isn't sticky. I reccommend HiTek coating over PC for pistol due to ease of applying. I've done both.

[usmc0811]

I have been doing the two coats, one before and then after and putting it on heavy

You may (if you haven't already) try 2 coats of Alox, one before sizing and one after

[usmc0811]

Thanks. I just went to shed and did as you stated, and filled a few used .40 cal cases to use to slug my barrel. I don't have a brass rod could I use something else? If not I will go buy one someplace any ideas where? I also just checked 3 of my cast rounds for size using a caliber and turning them to check all angles at the base, these were my results.
No lube and not sized .400-.403 .401-.402 .400-.403 like I said I turned them and these were the measurements
Lubed and sized .401-.402 .400-.401 .401-.402 same thing turned them to measure. So they are not perfectly round as you can see but would that slight difference of 1-3 hundredths make a difference?

1st step is to slug the barrel. Do a search on it and also read the stickies.

Quick run down on slugging:
Cast a bullet of pure lead or use an empty 40cal case and fill it up with pure lead. Knock it out of the case with a bullet puller and use that for a slug.

Use a brass rod and pound the slug through the barrel. Then check the OD of the slug with a micrometer to understand what size your groove diameter is. You need to be .001 to .002 over groove diameter. If you don't have this then you will get leading.

[Bullwolf]

Use Google advanced search to search this site for .40 S&W topics, particularly those that contain geargnasher's name.

To do a site search, enter

site:castboolits.gunloads.com

In a search engine with your search term. for example:

site:castboolits.gunloads.com usmc0811

Returns hits for all of the posts made by umc0811.

Gear has written a lot about making the 40S&W work with cast boolits. My search skills must be poor because all I could find were topics about the use of the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die use in the 40 S&W.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?135091-40-s-amp-w-lee-factory-crimp-die


If the boolits still fit the gun after sizing, you're probably ok. Most of us don't have such luck with the carbide rings on .40 and 9mm.

Unless you have a boolit with a crimp groove and are rolling the case mouth into it, your taper or factory crimp isn't going to hold the boolit against going into the case. Only case tension holds the boolit against getting deep-seated under recoil, so make sure you aren't messing that up with the FCD, because they can kill case tension due to brass springback. But of course that varies with alloy and brass, so only you can tell for sure if everything's ok after running through the FCD.

One nice thing about being able to use the FCD is you'll be certain they will all chamber, provided you have the proper overall length set for your gun.

Gear


Not exactly. I have a .40 FCD that sizes the thinnest brass I have and .401" boolit down so that the boolit ends up being .398"!! Yep, it leads the bore to buggary too!

Since I punched out the carbide ring and just used the floating sleeve to "crimp" the bellmouth, it works fine.

Gear


Are you are using the Lee Carbide pistol Factory Crimp Die while loading for the 40 S&W?

Generally 40 Smith and Wesson brass is pretty stiff, if not expanded properly using a correctly sized expander spud for oversize cast boolits, it can swage or squeeze your boolits down smaller during the loading process. Most of the loading dies come with expander spuds for much tougher Jacketed ammunition, and are not optimal for use with cast boolits. In some cases using an oversize or custom expander can be a huge help with 40.

Some find better results using a much harder boolit, that is more difficult to squeeze down or case swaging. It's still something of a band aid though. Using a too hard boolit that's the wrong size (too small) can cause some of the worst leading you have ever seen. Boolits that are the correct size are the key to preventing barrel leading, assuming no mechanical barrel problems (like a sharp throat edge, or rough barrel) exist.

How do you know if this swaging thing is happening to you or not? Pull a finished loaded boolit, and then measure that boolit.

If the boolit is smaller than .401 from your sizing operation, there is an error somewhere with your loading process that's swaging your boolits making them undersized.

Too small boolits will lead from gas cutting in high pressure cartridges like the 40 S&W quite easily, even if you use the best of lubes.

This why I asked the question about the Lee Carbide FCD. Many start off using the Lee die sets due to the price. There is nothing wrong with the Lee dies, but often the Lee CFCD can set up a new cast boolit loader up for failure.

Post sizing is something of a wasted step, if you need to do this to "fix" your ammunition so it functions there is something inherently wrong with your reloading process. Identify the problem and fix it and then post sizing becomes an unnecessary step.

My Lee 40 S&W Carbide FCD will swage even a hard lead boolit down through the case to .399 or even smaller. Using it ruins my case tension as well. No I'm not over crimping with it, or using it wrong. It will still do this with all of the crimping guts removed from the die, simply by post sizing a correctly loaded cartridge with my cast lead boolits.

Using the Lee CFCD is often a recipe for barrel leading with oversize cast boolits, yet it works fine with jacketed ammunition.

A good micrometer and accurate measurements are your friend here.

Cast some boolits, and measure the size as cast.

Size the boolits using your Lee .401 sizer, and measure them making sure they are .401 after sizing. Not all Lee sizing dies work as advertised, some need a little massaging.

Assemble/load a complete cartridge. Now pull the boolit, (using a kinetic puller or even pliers and your loading press) and measure the pulled boolit.

If you are using a Lee Carbide FCD, try not using it for 1 loading, and pull and measure a completed cartridge assembled without the Lee CFCD.

Compare all of these measurements, looking for any discrepancy.

If you find that you are swaging your boolits undersize during your loading process, you might want to try:

1. A larger custom expander spud.
2. Using less crimp
3. Using a harder (aged or even water dropped) boolit.
4. Try not using the Lee CFCD

Let us know what you find out.



- Bullwolf

[usmc0811]

When I do slug the barrel, where do I take my measurements with my calipers on the lands or grooves?

[Bullwolf]

When I do slug the barrel, where do I take my measurements with my calipers on the lands or grooves?


Use a good micrometer, and not a caliper for this.

Calipers are good for measurements like Loaded Cartridge Over All Length.

Micrometers are for getting the accurate size of a slug, or a pulled boolit.



- Bullwolf

[usmc0811]

Nice, Thank you all for the great information. You all rock. I will figure this out somehow, lol.

[runfiverun]

just measure the outside of the slug that is the diameter you need your boolits to be when they get in the barrel.
a little bigger would be better then you know the boolit is blocking the gas behind it.

oh,,,,and yes that .001 too small matters.
that's about 5 kajillion gas molecules worth of gap.

[usmc0811]

lol thanks, but am I doing something wrong that they are not coming out perfectly round? or is that normal with cast ww bullets?

oh,,,,and yes that .001 too small matters.
that's about 5 kajillion gas molecules worth of gap.

[gloob]

Once again, I will remark that the current "curriculum" is flat wrong, and you are probably wasting a bunch of time. You're doing the last thing first and the first thing isn't even on your agenda, yet.

Notice that making your alloy harder made the fouling go away? Well, if you expanded your case properly, you could shoot a soft alloy down to single digit bhn, and it wouldn't matter. Unless you were using a 5 bhn near pure lead and loading to 1200+ fps, the real reason it was leading is because your case was deforming your bullet, and making the alloy harder masked this problem. It wasn't the alloy, and it never was. A different lube might increase performance, but if it does, it's just masking the problem. Bullet > bore, is all you need to do, and you could probably wipe the bullet with snot and it would shoot straight.

There's absolutely no point in slugging your bore to get a number, yet. Even less point to using a micrometer to get a more accurate meaningless number. All you're doing with that number is selecting a bullet size, which is just as meaningless because you're not shooting bullets that you pick up off your bench and put in a micrometer. You're shooting bullets out of cases that are inadequately prepped for a jacketed bullets, let alone a cast bullet. You mess with your alloy, and now you think that the softer alloy was the problem. And that's just the "magical" thinking I was talking about. Fix the first thing; that's the case. Then you can find out what different alloys and sizes and lubes and powder coat are really capable of. And chances are pretty good that things which you thought were important or made a big difference actually amount to squat, once you are actually sending full sized and unsquished bullets down your bore.

The current knowledge base has you starting out in the wrong place. Would you carefully and painstakingly sight in and work up an accuracy load for a poorly bedded rifle? Would you play around with the OAL and the powder and the charge and the primers to get your best (crummy 10 MOA) load? And wait until afterwards to find out your stock screws were loose the whole time, and you did all that for naught? All that tweaking and testing, and all those targets and notes, all meaningless. After simply turning a screwdriver, which you should have checked, first, perhaps most or even ALL your loads would have shot sub 2MOA, and your best one is still undetermined.

[JeffG]

Not likely doing anything wrong. I have quite a few molds that the bullets are not perfectly round, but after they are sized, they are fine. I personally size all mine, it just makes me feel better. The key is having them bigger than the throat or leade into the rifling. That's where I slug mine, since there is a short area that has no rifling, which also makes it easier to measure. Are far as case expansion I use a Lyman M die since they are designed for lead bullets and will help ensure you aren't shaving lead seating the rounds. Finally, I bought Lee's Taper Crimp die instead of using their FCD, to ensure they weren't getting swaged down post seating. All I end up with in 9mm is some antimony wash near the muzzle, which is easily removed with a couple strokes of a bronze brush. I got hung up for a while thinking I was seeing leading in 9mm when it was pretty much antimony wash. I had done my homework in advance though by slugging the barrel before buying a sizing die, it's a simple process.


lol thanks, but am I doing something wrong that they are not coming out perfectly round? or is that normal with cast ww bullets?

[usmc0811]

OK I slugged my barrel, took the measurement and it read .395 from land to land, the bullets I am dropping from the mold are coming out like .400-.402 then lubing, resizing to .401 then lubing again. So they are a good size correct? They are .005+/- bigger than the bore, that's what I want right? So if the bullets are the correct size then it might be getting swaged down from the FCD like has been said from another forum member here. I guess I will look into the Lyman M-die or even using less crimp.
Just to let you know I did the trick with the copper chore boy wrapped around a brush and it took the lead out of my barrel in no time like just a few passes, now im wondering was that even leading since it came out so easy,lol. Im now going to measure a round then load it up as a dummy pull it and re measure to see if my FCD is swaging them or not. I will keep you all posted. Thanks once again for the help.

[rsrocket1]

Is that an M&P 40 you are shooting with?
I have one and here are a few things about it (even if you don't have an M&P, it may apply to your gun too).

The M&P 40 has 5 lands/grooves which makes measuring with calipers a little difficult. You can help the measurements by tilting the slug to ensure the caliper/micrometer catches the maximum high points of the grooves.

The M&P barrels have a very tight throat (the area in the chamber beyond the case mouth but before where the rifling starts to engrave the bullet. My 40 barrel measures 0.401" and my 9mm barrels measure 0.356". That means bullets must be sized to 0.401" or less, otherwise if any part sits above the case rim, the bullet won't pass the plunk test and you might end up with a few rounds that won't chamber or might chamber 99.5% and cause a light strike on the primer and a misfire.

My barrels were machined pretty rough and even after 20,000 rounds (all but the first 500 were lead bullets), I can still see small grooves in the rifling. That's not good for any bare lead.

Powder coating does get rid of the leading. I now get none in my M&P 40/9 and Shield 9. Just soot and carbon build up that cleans off with Hoppes No.9 and a patch or a pass with a bore snake. I used to use a Chore Boy wrapped bore mop and the clean up of the leading took 45 seconds, but I had to do it after every shooting session (typical session was about 200 shots).

I don't use the Lee FCD. I tried it with and without the FCD and the leading was about the same. With powder coating, the swaging of the bullets plus the slickness of the PC causes the bullets to pull out of the cases with finger pressure. I do crimp separately with the Lee taper crimp die. You can effectively to the same in one step with the Lee seating die with a little more careful adjusting, but I have the extra station on my progressive so it costs no more in terms of extra strokes.

With the same alloy, I get zero leading in my Ruger Service Six 38/357 and 1911 45ACP and I run those bullets unsized and tumbled in 45/45/10.

[usmc0811]

[QUOTE=rsrocket1;3258157]Is that an M&P 40 you are shooting with?
Yes it is an M&P.

[JeffG]

No, you want the groove messurement. Like others note, and the same with my S&W SD9VE, it has odd number of grooves, so that's another reason I measure the slug made from the throat end. I removed the barrel, placed it muzzle down on soft pine block and tapped a pure lead slug in from the chamber end, then tap it out and measure the short area of the slug before the rifling starts.


OK I slugged my barrel, took the measurement and it read .395 from land to land, the bullets I am dropping from the mold are coming out like .400-.402 then lubing, resizing to .401 then lubing again. So they are a good size correct? They are .005+/- bigger than the bore, that's what I want right? So if the bullets are the correct size then it might be getting swaged down from the FCD like has been said from another forum member here. I guess I will look into the Lyman M-die or even using less crimp.
Just to let you know I did the trick with the copper chore boy wrapped around a brush and it took the lead out of my barrel in no time like just a few passes, now im wondering was that even leading since it came out so easy,lol. Im now going to measure a round then load it up as a dummy pull it and re measure to see if my FCD is swaging them or not. I will keep you all posted. Thanks once again for the help.

[randyrat]

You can size or not to the right size and it won't make any difference if your lead bullets are swagged down when you seat them..40 Brass doesn't give as much as some other brass and it has to be expanded before you seat a bullet..It was stated earlier.
.I used to expand inside my 40 brass to about .398-.399 and i used .401 bullets..So i only had .002- .003 bullet hold. I never slugged my barrels. Best is to try and chamber a .401 or .402...some chambers are so dang tight they just are not good cast bullet guns. OH yeah and take that advice and don't use a FCD, just smooth out the bell and make sure they are some what tight so they don't back out or get pushed in deeper and cause a pressure spike. Give IMR 4756 a try and you will find a magic load.

[gloob]

it won't make any difference if your lead bullets are swagged down when you seat them
Agree.

I used to expand inside my 40 brass to about .398-.399 and i used .401 bullets..So i only had .002- .003 bullet hold.
Some clarification is needed, here. Is your expander measuring 398-399? Or is the ID of your expanded cases measuring 398-399, after you withdraw the expander?

Using an expander that is any bit smaller than the bullet, you will get full neck tension, period. If you are not getting full neck tension, it is because your sizing die is too loose and the expander isn't even doing anything.

FTR, I expand my 40SW with a 401 diameter expander for 401 diameter bullets and get full neck tension.

[BenW]

I have an M&P in 40 as well. It slugs at .4015", but won't chamber 0.402" since the throat is 0.4010". I use very soft (9-11 bhn) alloys like 25-1 or 98-1-1 alloy, sized at 0.4015". It took a lot of development to figure out I had to go softer to stop leading. You don't have to be 0.001" oversize, but going a mil over helps head off a lot of problems if it'll still reliably chamber. I'm still trying to get my father-in-law's M&P working with my reloads.

[randyrat]

Agree.

Some clarification is needed, here. Is your expander measuring 398-399? Or is the ID of your expanded cases measuring 398-399, after you withdraw the expander?

Using an expander that is any bit smaller than the bullet, you will get full neck tension, period. If you are not getting full neck tension, it is because your sizing die is too loose and the expander isn't even doing anything.

FTR, I expand my 40SW with a 401 diameter expander for 401 diameter bullets and get full neck tension.
My brass was about .399 maybe a bit larger when I was was done expanding..I had about .002 hold on the bullet..with spring back of the brass, you probably get by with an expander die of .400 or .401..I think brass sizing the seated bullet is where a lot of the problems arise from loading 9mm and 40 cal..

[popper]

Yes, it's leading. Fought that for a long time till I got a proper expander. Even a thick coat of PC didn't completely solve the problem, proper expander did. I have both the Lee moulds. Plan for a 0.401 boolit, minus 0.002 (0.399 as Gloob said)for neck tension. After a few firings the case will harden and have more springback, neck tension increases. Don't plan on I recommend the HiTek over PC for pistol - much less messy than PC. Cost is about the same as a good (Smoke's) PC and you don't need the ESPC gun, just the oven for cooking.

[usmc0811]

So I went back to my reloading press and did some testing. This is what I figured out.
Started with one of my cast and resized bullets that was measured to .401 above and below the lube groove.
I ran it through the press to made a dummy round, using the FCD then pulled it to take another measurement. This time it measured .394 just above the lube groove where it was tapered and .399 at the base of the bullet, and stated earlier my slugged bore is .395. So yes the FCD is swaging them down as someone has suggested. I then tried another one this time not using the FCD, just seating the bullet to an COL of 1.124 then racking it through my pistol 3-4 times and re measured and still read 1.124. So could I just skip the last die all together being it is held in place well enough with just the case tension? or do I still need to use some type of die. Just a side note when I bell my case the inside of the mouth reads .393 and the outside reads .423 just to give you an idea of how wide im belling it, then after the FCD the case mouth reads .420.
I made some of Ben's bullet lube (BBL) so well see how that helps later.

[dubber123]

All you need to do after seating a boolit is use the regular crimp feature of your seating die to straighten out the bell. With varying case lengths, this is usually a compromise situation, and I prefer a taper crimp die as 4th step, but you should be able to get by just fine without it. Not swaging your boolit down in the process is what you are after. Keep at it, you will get it soon :)

[usmc0811]

So after I seat it I should be good to go with just that tension is what you saying?


All you need to do after seating a boolit is use the regular crimp feature of your seating die to straighten out the bell. With varying case lengths, this is usually a compromise situation, and I prefer a taper crimp die as 4th step, but you should be able to get by just fine without it. Not swaging your boolit down in the process is what you are after. Keep at it, you will get it soon :)

[62chevy]

So after I seat it I should be good to go with just that tension is what you saying?

The seating die crimp is a real PITA and I don't use it. The FCD should not make your boolit smaller unless they are way over sized. Make a dummy round with out powder or primer seat a boolit then pull the bullet and measure it then compare to the reading before seating.

[gloob]

So I went back to my reloading press and did some testing. This is what I figured out.
Started with one of my cast and resized bullets that was measured to .401 above and below the lube groove.
I ran it through the press to made a dummy round, using the FCD then pulled it to take another measurement. This time it measured .394 just above the lube groove where it was tapered and .399 at the base of the bullet,
Yes, the pistol FCD usually ruins cast bullets. Some people use it on cast, but they are more the exception than the norm, and it's possible their FCD's are significantly larger than normal and/or their bores are smaller than normal, and/or they prioritize chambering reliability over accuracy and lead fouling.


and stated earlier my slugged bore is .395.
As stated by several people, you are measuring wrong. There's no way your bore is 395.


So yes the FCD is swaging them down as someone has suggested. I then tried another one this time not using the FCD, just seating the bullet to an COL of 1.124 then racking it through my pistol 3-4 times and re measured and still read 1.124.

Beowolf has suggested the following:

How do you know if this swaging thing is happening to you or not? Pull a finished loaded boolit, and then measure that boolit.
You did with with an FCD post-sized round. You have stopped using the FCD, which is prudent. You have not measured a pulled round that was made without the FCD. The FCD is not the only thing that swages a bullet. Did anyone mention yet that size of the bullet is everything? You really ought to measure a pulled bullet from a variety of your brass, because some cases are thicker than others. A thinner underexpanded case might not damage the bullet, where a thicker case will. As you have done before, be sure to measure all the way around the base at various points. Even one point that is smaller than your bore can create fouling, smoke, and decreased accuracy.


So could I just skip the last die all together being it is held in place well enough with just the case tension? or do I still need to use some type of die. Just a side note when I bell my case the inside of the mouth reads .393 and the outside reads .423 just to give you an idea of how wide im belling it, then after the FCD the case mouth reads .420.
1. Many responders have already told you that crimping has nothing to do with neck tension. The taper crimp is done to make the round fit in the chamber. If the completed round drops into your gun's chamber, then you don't even need to taper crimp unless it causes feeding malfunctions.
2. Any seating die will do a taper crimp. You are seating your bullets with a seating die. It performs a taper crimp. Read the instructions. And note that with cast bullets you will often need to seat your bullets without any crimp, first. Then run them through the die a second time (after adjusting the die) to add the crimp in a separate step. If you try to do both at the same time with cast bullets, you will usually shave lead off the bullet.

The FCD is a special die that taper crimps AND sizes the bullet down if the bullet/brass combo happens to be oversized, and it's calibrated for jacketed bullets. It's kinda like a chamber check of your ammo, except instead of catching the bad rounds and setting them aside, you are squishing the bad rounds to make them chamber, anyway. Even with jacketed bullets, most reloaders do not use an FCD. Lee is the only company that makes it, and even they sell die sets with or without it. It is entirely optional.

[dubber123]

Gloob provides you will a lot of good info. I have not read every single post, so forgive me if any of what I say is repetitive.. If you are not water dropping, consider doing so. It will produce a much harder boolit that is much more resistant to deformation. I rarely water drop or heat treat, but I have my dies dialed in to preclude swaging during the loading process. A harder boolit may just help get you shooting sooner. Neck tension is not achieved with the FCD. It is achieved by your sized brass being smaller than the projectile you are seating. In fact, if you over crimp, or otherwise squeeze a case after a projectile is seated, you will LOSE case neck tension. The brass will spring back at a greater rate than a lead boolit will, and can actually make for a looser fit, which is not good.

You are on the right track, you will get there. Do away with the swaging, just straighten out the bell on your case mouths, and give it another try.

[bigboredad]

When I first started casting my first experience was just like yours and what I've learned since then to now is start with the easiest fix and proceed from there what I found out after slugging the barrel and measuring thus that and the other was quite easy and quick. U started by cleaning the barrel until all lead and copper was gone I kept using my water dropped we lead kept using the Lee fcd all in all my first biggest change was switching from tumble looking I took 15 bullets spread some lube with my fingers all over my tumble loobed style bullet loaded and tested. When I pulled the barrel I was so excited to see a shiny barrel. After that I dropped tumble lubing all together and started pan lubing. Since then I have been able to come up with a lubrisizer and a star and u continue to have shiney barrels hope this helps