Lee 4 die set, Is FCD really needed?

[soldierbilly1]

One quick question:
am I correct in assuming the only difference between the 3 vs 4 die sets is the FCD?

I have a Lee progressive 1000 and I am thinking of buying the shellplate converter for the 38 spl and loading only cast boolits (Lee 158 gr SWC's).

Are there any major problems with cast boolits and the 3 die set? do I really need the FCD?
thanks
Billboy

[44Vaquero]

Loading .38/.357 on a 3 station progressive or turret is not an issue. Do not over bell or over crimp and you will be just fine. I have been Loading .38 FWC on my 3 station for better then 20 years.

As for the 3 vs 4 die debate, I have been to that Rodeo before and have nothing to say when it comes to town this time.

[beex215]

never needed it really. the seater die does it all for me. i dont crimp the rifle rounds either and just have the crimper in its box for years.

[DougGuy]

IF you are using the same size cast boolit as a factory j-word, the FCD won't be an issue. If you are sizing .358" or larger, the FCD will likely size down your boolits after you assemble them.

[soldierbilly1]

thanks for the help.
its what I thought!
billboy

[bottomline]

I use a FCD for 9mm & 45acp, but not for 38 special. My 45 is a bit finicky and I found that finishing the rounds through the FCD made for more consistent feeding. Again this is in my gun - as the saying goes....your mileage may vary.

Oh i use the 9mm because it came with the dies set - works fine, but have not spent a whole lot of time test the difference of with or without.

[mdi]

I had a Lee FCD die, but it now resides somewhere in a landfill in Southern Oregon. Do a search and/or google Fee Factory Crimp dies and you'll see the many, many "discussions" on the tool.

[FISH4BUGS]

My 9mm, 380 and 45 submachine guns have very generous chamber dimensions. They can produce the 'Glock Bulge" in the case, and the FCD rids you of that hassle. Personally I use them on 380, 9mm and 45. Cast OR jacketed.
It is interesting, however, how some are so opinionated on this subject.

[mdi]

I'm one of those "opinionated" posters. My objection is not with anyone using a Lee Factory Crimp die (for handguns), but new reloaders being told to use one. Proper die adjustments will, in 99% of the cases, will eliminate the need for one. I'd rather see new reloader's problems addressed rather them being told to just cover it up...

(Got B.O.? Just slap on more cologne, no need for a shower!)

Off my soapbox. Not a Lee hater as I have a lot of Lee equipment and even use the Factory Crimp dies on two of my rifle cartridge reloads...

[tazman]

I use the Lee factory crimp die on all my handgun cartridges for the simple purpose of making sure that they fit in my guns. For the most part, the sizing ring in the FCD never touches my cases. Only the crimp part of the die is used( I crimp as a separate step from seating).
Occasionally I will have a thicker case than normal and would have had a feeding problem except for the FCD. I have never had a keyholing or leading problem that was due to using the FCD. That episode was due to not getting the case expanded properly.
I can certainly see how you could have a problem if you need oversize boolits or you get an undersize ring in one.
This is just one of those things that works a bit differently for different people. You may like it or you may not.

[spec234]

For what its worth, I purchased the 4 die sets when I started reloading in 9mm, 40s&w, and 45 acp four years ago with the thinking that if a 3 die set is good a 4 die set must be better. After much research and reading here about it, I just used the other three dies and left the fcd for each set in the box. I would guess that since then, I have loaded over 10000 pistol rounds since I started and have never used them.
I cannot comment on how good or bad the LEE fcd die is, but I can say that I haven't had a need for them. Lately I have thought about knocking the rings out and using them as a crimp die though.

[gloob]

I have found the pistol FCD's to be useful for a few things.
1. in 40SW, I use the FCD as a bulge buster by pushing the cases all the way through.
2. I once loaded some plated wadcutters into thick 38 special cases. They wouldn't fit in the chamber. There were only 6, and I planned to toss those cases, anyway. So I ran them thru the FCD and shot them. I didn't do any accuracy testing, but I know they sucked.
3. I once loaded some cast bullets in brand new 10mm cases, and then I realized I made a mistake in the charge weight. The brand new cases were so clean, the bullets wouldn't pull, and I tried it all. Ran them through the FCD, and they pulled easy. Cases saved, bullets melted down.

If the FCD was really needed, Lee wouldn't offer 3 die sets, now would they?

[MT Chambers]

I am "opinionated"......I believe they are a gimmick, like alot of Lee stuff. They will size down seated bullets, after you have spent hours sizing them to the size you want.
Not a "gimmick"? Okay, bring back the Zip Trim.
New reloaders may buy into this stuff, it is the responsibility of others to set them straight and in the right direction.

[dkf]

Up to you. I usually buy the 3 die sets and buy a seperate taper or roll crimp die to seat and crimp in different stations. If the 4 die set is only in stock and I need it or the set was a gift, I just remove the carbide ring and taper the step the ring was seated against so cases don't hang up. It is a pain to remove the ring and it helps to know what you are doing and have the right equipment but it can be done. I only need to size my brass and bullets once so I have no need nor want for the sizing ring in the pistol FCDs.

[Eddie17]

My 44Mag, 357Mag, and 38 special don't require a FCD, on 45ACP and 9mm yes they correct all issues.

[gunoil]

I also like to have cartridge gage around for my pistol ammo.

[gloob]

on 45ACP and 9mm yes they correct all issues.
I sure would like to hear more about all the issues these things correct. Heck, how about just one of them.

[mdi]

I sure would like to hear more about all the issues these things correct. Heck, how about just one of them.
Hmmm, me too! I can't help think of the bazillion and a half 45 ACP rounds successfully reloaded before Lee introduced their FDC...

[mold maker]

Some like red apples and others yellow. There is always someone who demands a Granny Smith.
That doesn't make anyone less right, or more wrong. While the FCD isn't a required tool to get the job done, and you have to understand where and how much, it also does the job.
If you had a gun with a tight chamber, but average bore, you'd quickly see the value.

[Johnny_Cyclone]

Seating and crimping separately is pretty nice.

Having a carbide ring that resizes brass post loading.. that's another sorted story for specific needs.

I've made my own 4 die sets using lefter over seating/crimp dies from various makers unmatched sets. Usually found in boxes at estate sales.

Most of my setups look like this:

1: deprime/resize die
2: powder/flaring die
3: seating/crimp die adjusted only to seat
4: seating/crimp die adjusted only to crimp (or FCD with carbide ring removed..or maybe left in .. just depends)

Some straight wall FCD's I've punched the carbide ring out of (so all it would do is crimp,not post resize), others I've left it in.

The rife/collet style FCD is a different animal. I like it much. Also, I like the limited run straight wall pistol collet dies LEE did for Ranch Dog.

Jeeze.. now that i look at it, i have a lot of "special" dies here.

[dkf]

I sure would like to hear more about all the issues these things correct. Heck, how about just one of them.

I have found there are quite a few reloaders out there whom are not technical and/or attentive enough to properly set up and put out quality consistent ammo. These people often need "bandaids" to help iron out those issues.



The rife/collet style FCD is a different animal. I like it much. Also, I like the limited run straight wall pistol collet dies LEE did for Ranch Dog.

I do like and use some of the rifle and bottleneck pistol FCDs. Though I found there can be some quirks to them.

[FISH4BUGS]

I sure would like to hear more about all the issues these things correct. Heck, how about just one of them.
Try shooting your 380, 9mm or 45 from a submachinegun. Then try to reload those cases. They expand a great deal because of the generous chamber dimensions, particularly in the Uzi.
The FCD rids you of that "Glock Bulge".
Also use a case gauge on every loaded round. Or have a spare barrel to sit the loaded rounds into to make sure they will feed.
Since I started doing this I haven't blown up any guns! So far only a 3914 and a S&W 76. Thank goodness the 76 is built like a tank!

[gloob]

The FCD rids you of that "Glock Bulge".
Now, I'm not being negative, here. I'm just curious how this is. I know you can use an FCD as a push-thru case sizer. But are you saying that using it as a regular die will remove the Glock bulge? Does it really size the case that much farther down towards the rim than a regular sizing die does? Because the diameter of the FCD carbide ring is several mils larger than the diameter of the sizing die's carbide ring, so it would have to size quite a bit closer to the rim than the sizing die in order to achieve this effect.

When removing the Glock bulge, most people are pushing the case all the way through the FCD, with the crimp stem/ring removed. I do this with my 10mm cases, and it works great.

My personal understanding is that the FCD, when used in the conventional way, is fixing problems with bullet/brass size and grossly excessive crimp that may buckle the case, and that's about all. These problems are often technically better to address by removing the issue. E.g. removing your thick cases, buying/sizing your bullets to better tolerances, and eliminating excessive crimp by... adjusting your crimp die (or trimming cases if necessary), thereby leaving your ammo to have more consistent neck tension and full bullet diameter.


Also use a case gauge on every loaded round.
This is even more curious. Why do both? How about case gauging before using the FCD, at least? Then figuring out the issue with the ones that fail to fit the case gauge, before using the FCD on them and making them pass with the others. And taking it one step further, how about the ones that pass, you don't put through the FCD, at all?

I'm willing to learn, here. All ears.


Since I started doing this I haven't blown up any guns!
So how many did you blow up before you started doing this? :)

[tazman]

I have purchased several thousand 9mm and 40S&W range brass and I can't say that I have ever encountered "glock bulge". If I have, the Lee FCD has taken care of the problem without my noticing.
Since I get multiple headstamps in my lots of brass and since I don't sort for headstamp(I am not good enough with my autos yet to feel that is necessary), I never know when one of those really thick cases is going to show up. I have generous chambers on my guns but there are limits to what they will accept. For the 9mm, I need to size to .358 which is large for caliber. With a thick walled case, the finished load will have a rough time chambering. The FCD makes this a non issue.
Yes, I may be getting a few rounds that are swaged down. Since I am not shooting these for target scores or self defense loads, I really don't care. I haven't seen a keyholed round from my pistols since I started using the .358 boolits. I also don't get leading.
My process works quite well for me. It may not work for you. Each gun makes it's own rules.

[gloob]

Ok, that's kinda along the lines of thought I had. If you're using the FCD, it's to make rounds chamber and to hell with swaging.

Side note, I think your FCD is very loose if you are using it on 358 bullets and are only getting "a few" swaged down. And I highly doubt it is debulging your brass, unless you are pushing case through it, rim and all, like the rest of us. (For 9mm, you have to use the 9mm mak FCD for this, of course).


I never know when one of those really thick cases is going to show up.
This is so true. I have the same problem in one of my 40SWs. I suppose I do something similar with my Lee regular taper crimp die, which happens to be tight enough in the die body to detect these thick cases. But instead of forcing it thru, I stop and set it aside. If they're a Fiocci brass that I missed while loading, I set that aside for use in my other 40 caliber guns that will chamber it, thick brass and no crimp and all. (Glock 20, aka Mikey of 40sw ammo). If they're an unexpected headstamp, like a Win or R-P, which are generally fine, I deconstruct the rounds and toss the brass so I don't see it again.

[tazman]

I always suspected my FCDs are on the loose side. For me, that isn't a problem. I prefer that it be loose as it keeps bad things from happening. I used to get the occasional case that would not chamber when I was using the Lee taper crimp die instead of the FCD. Not sure if it was the brass being a little long and being bulged at the crimp or something else going wrong. In any case, this system works for me. If I were to have an FCD that was on the small side, I would probably be cursing them.
I agree that it probably isn't de-bulging my brass. I don't think it goes far enough down the case to be effective for that but am not certain. I think I have been lucky and just not happened across and bulged brass.
I have more problems with military brass being thick than other headstamps. I don't think I have ever seen a Fiocci or SB case in my brass. Since I have said that, I am sure to run across a bunch of them in the near future.
The Beretta barrels on my 9mm pistols slug at .357. I can shoot .357 boolits in them but get slightly better accuracy with .358. I got slight leading at .357 and none at all at .358. That is why I use the larger diameter boolits in my 9mm.
.356 boolits lead like crazy and shoot poorly as far as accuracy.

[gloob]

I edited my post because my SB 40 brass is actually so grossly thick I toss it whenever I find any. My SB 45ACP cases, OTOH, are thin as RP. I have a ton of SB 9mm and they are a bit thick In that caliber, too.

[dkf]

The only way an FCD is going to remove more of the "bulge" towards the rim of the case than a std Lee sizer die is if you push it through. The 9mm case is tapered so you are much better off roll sizing it vs using a push thru.

[retread]

I do not use the Lee FCD for crimping(they do reduce the size of your carefully sized cast boolits) but I am looking for some to use with my Lee Bulge Buster. Right now I need a 380 Auto and a 45 ACP and 9mm makarov if anyone wants to get rid of them.

[gloob]

The tolerances on the FCD's must be all over the map. If some guys are using them without swaging, fouling, and wonky neck tension, there must be a significant difference between dies.

[tazman]

The tolerances on the FCD's must be all over the map. If some guys are using them without swaging, fouling, and wonky neck tension, there must be a significant difference between dies.

This is what I think is happening.^^^

[Garyshome]

I was having problems with "shaved" boolits [My cast ones]. The extra die cured that problem.

[dudel]

I think many of the FCD nay sayers have the wrong idea of what the die does. It makes SAAMI standard ammo. Not surprisingly, factory ammo also goes through a post sizing step to ensure that all rounds feed. If you are using oversized boolits, then you aren't really making SAAMI standard ammo. You're making ammo that suits a particular gun. I'm generally not going to load pistol rounds for a specific handgun (rifle yes; handgun no), so I want all my 9mm to work in all my 9mm guns, same with 38Spl/Mag/Max, 45ACP, etc. I don't have any guns that require oversized boolits. Not sure I would keep one if I did (it would have to be really, really, special). Since I'm not shooting any oversized boolits, the FCD is just there to crimp (I prefer to seat and crimp in two steps). The odd round that has thicker brass (and I do sort by headstamp), gets cleaned up in the FCD, and I KNOW it will chamber and shoot. It saves me the effort of case gauging every round (or even a statistical sample of them).

If you are loading oversized boolits (ie making non SAAMI rounds), DON'T use the FCD. If you are making SAAMI standard rounds, then the FCD won't be doing much sizing of anything; other than the occasional round with thick brass or out of spec boolit. The FCD will ensure that the round will chamber. If your over sized rounds won't plunk in a case gauge, then the FCD is NOT for you.

I've been using the FCD on all pistol rounds for 10 years now. I have not seen a problem in accuracy, keyholeing, or high SD/ES over the chronograph. It works for me; so I'll continue to use it.

[Maximumbob54]

FCD talk aside, buy the NOE powder through expander if you are using the Pro Auto powder dispenser. He makes them to mimic the Lyman M die so instead of belling the case mouth you just open it exactly enough to seat the bullet without the bullet tilting sideways any. Superior in every way. I think even RCBS is copying this design now.

[dudel]

FCD talk aside, buy the NOE powder through expander if you are using the Pro Auto powder dispenser. He makes them to mimic the Lyman M die so instead of belling the case mouth you just open it exactly enough to seat the bullet without the bullet tilting sideways any. Superior in every way. I think even RCBS is copying this design now.

I use a Dillon powder measure, so the NOEs don't work for me. However, I found that the Hornady inline seating dies do a good job of seating the projectile even without an M die style expander. I only have one Lyman M, and that's for 22 Hornet (it's very easy to mess up those cases). Found that the Hornady seater die would give me a straight and even seating.

[soldierbilly1]

Great discussion. I got one hella education here.

Final question before I get back to reloading:
Is there anything to gain with a cutaway diagram that shows the inside of an FCD?
Anyone ever slice one in half?

thanks again.
Billboy

[jmort]

dudel post #33 is absolutely correct. For over-SAAMI spec pistol bullets you may get swaging. There is a reason the handgun FCDs are so very highly rated by user/owners. Even a poll here on this site is 2/3 pro and 1/3 con. They promote reliable, uniform, and concentric ammunition. In semi-autos they make sense. For revolvers with cast bullets I like the Redding Profile crimp dies. Used with common sense the FCD makes sense in semi-auto pistols or revolvers with jacketed bullets. If you are shooting over-SAAMI spec cast bullets the FCD may not be a good choice for a semi-auto pistol and I would use a Redding taper crimp die assuming the over-sized cast bullet functioned well over-sized.

[tazman]

FCD talk aside, buy the NOE powder through expander if you are using the Pro Auto powder dispenser. He makes them to mimic the Lyman M die so instead of belling the case mouth you just open it exactly enough to seat the bullet without the bullet tilting sideways any. Superior in every way. I think even RCBS is copying this design now.

I am using the Lee Pro Autodisk powder measure and bought the NOE powder through expander just as Maximumbob54 did. It works as he said and did improve my ammo. Not a lot, but some.

[Maximumbob54]

To be clear, I mentioned the bullet tipping sideways because with the usual case mouth expanding you can only at best set the bullet upright and rely on the seating die's insert to do any correction to seat the bullet straight. You can press the bullet uneven and end up with ever so slight run out, soft alloys well dent the nose uneven, or shave the side of the bullet on the case mouth. For a coated (or plated) bullet this means you just ruined that bullet. I didn't have these issues that often but they happened every once in a while and now they pretty much never happen. If you load on a progressive and use a bullet feed die then they really help since the bullet sets just right and won't tip during shell plate rotation. IMHO, there are too many good reasons to have some sort of M-die type setup and I don't even care what brand or even custom made.

Also, don't forget if you are loading magnum pistol cases then Lee offers the rifle style FCD with the collet insert that presses in the case mouth rather than rolling it.

Last resort, if you like the roll crimp the Lee Carbide FCD offers but don't want the post sizing then you can always just knock the carbide ring out. It's not easy but it can be done. I removed the internals and dropped a socket inside, clamped the die body between wood blocks in the vice, and several whacks with a hammer later the carbide ring fell out. At first it was like it was welded in place and then it just fell out and broke when it hit the garage floor. I suppose you could also call Lee and request one without the carbide ring. I'm curious what they would say. I may email them to ask.

[tazman]

It seems that if you want a separate crimp station and don't want the sizing aspect of the Lee FCD, then you need to get a taper crimp die or get another seating die with a roll crimp and back out the seating stem.
Buying an FCD and disabling the sizing part seems a bit counter productive. Particularly as the die is then pretty much worthless to anyone else.

[dudel]

Last resort, if you like the roll crimp the Lee Carbide FCD offers but don't want the post sizing then you can always just knock the carbide ring out. It's not easy but it can be done. I removed the internals and dropped a socket inside, clamped the die body between wood blocks in the vice, and several whacks with a hammer later the carbide ring fell out. At first it was like it was welded in place and then it just fell out and broke when it hit the garage floor. I suppose you could also call Lee and request one without the carbide ring. I'm curious what they would say. I may email them to ask.

If you want a crimp die, just get a crimp die! No need to buy an FCD and punch out the ring to turn it into a crimp die. If you're not using oversized boolits, then the FCD will only be crimping anyways.

You might be overthinking the process. I seat an crimp in two steps because it make the process of changing from one projectile to another faster. I adjust the seating depth of the new projectile; but the crimp die is unchanged. Also if the seating die gums up with lube, it can be cleaned without affecting the crimp (some dies allow for this, I know Hornady and Dillon do).

[Maximumbob54]

I'm not over thinking anything. The whole point of this is the post sizing none of us want done on custom diameter bullets. I greatly prefer to seat and crimp in two steps rather than one. I have bought other crimp dies but prefer the ease of setting on the Lee FCD. I did just email Lee asking if they will sell a FCD minus the carbide ring. I will post back their reply.

[MT Chambers]

The Lee die will size the bullets, some brands of brass maybe not, but if you use diff. brass then the thicker necks will force the die to size the bullet.

[Maximumbob54]

The Lee die will size the bullets, some brands of brass maybe not, but if you use diff. brass then the thicker necks will force the die to size the bullet.

Old milsurp .38 special brass does this to me. I have to separate that stuff. I keep it for later use but I do have to keep it apart.

[gloob]

Final question before I get back to reloading:
Is there anything to gain with a cutaway diagram that shows the inside of an FCD?
Anyone ever slice one in half?

It looks like a carbide sizing die on the bottom and a taper crimp die on top. Except the carbide sizing ring is about maybe 5 mils bigger than a regular sizing ring, plus or minus a few.

In theory, the size of the carbide ring is large enough to allow a normal jacketed round through without affecting it. In theory, only a larger than normal round will be squeezed by the ring back to SAAMI. If the round is too big, it might be because the brass is too thick, and the sizer squeezes the bullet smaller to compensate. Because of springback of the case, these squished rounds also have reduced neck tension.

[Bullwolf]

Great discussion. I got one hella education here.

Final question before I get back to reloading:
Is there anything to gain with a cutaway diagram that shows the inside of an FCD?
Anyone ever slice one in half?

thanks again.
Billboy

Here's a cutaway diagram of a handgun 38FCD from Lee. There's no real need to slice on in half to see how it works, unless you really wanted to.

http://leeprecision.com/userfiles/images/38_FCD.jpg

http://leeprecision.com/userfiles/images/38_FCD.jpg

The yellow colored insert at the bottom of the picture represents the carbide post sizing ring that's been discussed here.


You can read Lee's spiel about them from the link below.
http://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/hand-gun-dies/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die


- Bullwolf

[soldierbilly1]

BullW:
thanks. The diagram just about cleared everything up!
I am now beginning to see the need/ non need for the die!
Again, interesting discussion. I did learn a lot! the education continues!
Billboy

[skizzums]

I bought my 9mm dies a couple years ago during the "happening" and although I haven't NEEDED it, it would be nice to have sometimes. I would gladly pay the extra few bucks to get the 4 die set. Soft lead can be a pain getting it set just right without crimp grooves, sometimes ill get the lead pushed over the crimp and cause feeding issues. It's not a big deal, but for the little cost difference between a 3 and 4 dies set, just get the four, it also helps when doing .358 bullets. If you are doing a straight wall with crimp grooves, its very necessary unless you want to make 100% sure all your brass is trimmed to the exact same size

[lightload]

Perhaps Lee assumes that they are ideal for jacketed bullets but not boolits.

[dragon813gt]

Buying an FCD and disabling the sizing part seems a bit counter productive. Particularly as the die is then pretty much worthless to anyone else.

Who cares? I set my dies up to work for me. Resale value to someone else is of no concern. If you knock the ring out and disclose it plenty of people will still buy it



Perhaps Lee assumes that they are ideal for jacketed bullets but not boolits.

None of their dies are for cast bullets. Outside of RCBS cowboy dies all manufacturer's dies are made for jacketed bullets. This really becomes apparent w/ a WFN design and Lee's seating plug. Nothing like deforming the nose of the bullet.

[rmark]

I have a tight chambered S&W 38 special, I use the FCD for it. Haven't needed a FCD for my 9mm or for loads for my Ruger .357 mag.

[str8wal]

I'm one of those "opinionated" posters. My objection is not with anyone using a Lee Factory Crimp die (for handguns), but new reloaders being told to use one. Proper die adjustments will, in 99% of the cases, will eliminate the need for one. I'd rather see new reloader's problems addressed rather them being told to just cover it up...


Agreed. I've loading with RCBS dies for longer than I care to admit (gettin up there) and have had not problems. Never have owned a Lee crimp, and won't disparage those who do, I just never had a need for it.