Need advice on my first shotgun: Which one?

[Oreo]

My wife said I could buy a gun as my father's day / birthday present. I don't own a shotgun so that's what I want. I know very little about shotguns though so I could use some help getting pointed in the right direction.

I had considered an 18" 870 but I've already got my home defense needs covered with other guns, and the Benelli M4 is out of the budget, so maybe I should get something I could have a little more fun with. I don't hunt (yet). The local gun club does have a very active trap league. Can I get a gun for trap and later use it to hunt?

Should I be shopping for a magnum gun that will shoot 3.5" shells?

What barrel length?

My budget is maybe $500+/-. I usually have expensive taste so maybe I just put that money aside till I have more for a quality piece?

School me please?

[montana_charlie]

I've already got my home defense needs covered with other guns,
I don't hunt (yet).
Can I get a gun for trap and later use it to hunt?

My budget is maybe $500+/-. I usually have expensive taste so maybe I just put that money aside till I have more for a quality piece?
I'd say wait until you know why you want a shotgun.

CM

[Mk42gunner]

Personally, for a general use shotgun, I would stay far away from a 3½" 12 gauge. Mine doesn't do anything a shorter chambered one won't, except recoil horrendously.

Otherwise, I'd say Montana Charlie gave you good advice.

Robert

[Major Danger]

Assuming 12 gauge, you don't need a 3.5" chamber unless you know you're goose or turkey hunting, etc. You will shoot 2-3/4" shells most of the time anyway.

For trap/ target use with the potential for hunting, look at 26-28" barreled "field grade" mossberg 500, Remington 870, etc. You might find an auto in that price range too. For fun look at stoeger side by side too.

[Oreo]

The local shop just showed me an over-under by CZ. Neat gun that I hadn't considered.

[DougGuy]

I'd say wait until you know why you want a shotgun.

CM

^^^^THIS... is GOOD advice..

Ok it goes like this.. The BEST home defense INSIDE the home, is a 12ga shotgun loaded with goose loads. 2oz of fine shot at magnum velocities at the length of most houses even in a cylinder bore barrel will do a nasty and very final job on an intruder that happens to be unlucky enough to be on the receiving end of such a load. It also will NOT shoot through brick walls unless you are right up on them. <<-- One very important thing you CANNOT say about buckshot of any size.

So for this choose a Mossberg 500A 12ga pump model with a 20" cylinder bore barrel and an 8rd magazine tube. Load 2 Winchester slugs, 4 rounds of 00 buckshot, and finally 2 goose loads. It will feed the 2 goose loads first, then the buckshot, then the slugs. If they aren't convinced by the first two rounds, it's time to get serious.

If you want to hunt game with it, buy a rifled barrel with cantilever scope mount and put a red dot on it, bada$$ deer medicine, this setup will cloverleaf a playing card at 100yds with plain jane wallyworld Winchester slugs.

For turkey or other fowl, buy a 28" barrel with some screw in choke tubes.

Mossy 500A with these three barrels, plus the ammo, and maybe even the optics could be had for near $500 total if you buy a used shotgun and then hunt down the rest of it.

This would be the most frugal and practically spent $500 you will ever spend on a gun, it may be the GEO of 12ga shotguns, but they hold up really well and offer the best utility for the buck that I can think of. You can always buy better quality but dollar for dollar, you won't get near as much gun.. Just sayin'

[country gent]

One thing to remeber is when wing shooting or trap shooting is the guns fit to you is very important. length of pull hieght angld of cheek piece. Shotguns are pointed not aimed. I wouldnt rule out the used rack for good shotguns also. I would look at a 12 ga with 2 3/4" chamber 26-28" barrels with screw in choke tubes. Pump overunder side by side semiauto or single shot is up to you.

[doc1876]

They make a thousand different shot guns for a thousand different reasons. You really need to decide what is yours

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

start with the question what do you want to shoot ?

budget is a good second question

unless you after ducks or geese Magnums only punish you , there are no need for them in shooting games most ranges don't allow them

trap is probably the easiest game to play with a off the shelf shot gun , abd most hunting guns make decent trap guns.

most new guns will shoot 3 inch shells and the 2 3/4 , that is generally enough unless again after high flying geese

I teach shotgun to the 4-H kids we shoot trap , and most of the kids are using rem 870s , mossberg 500 , winchester 1200 and some rem 1100 or 1187 but a few kids have dedicated single barrel trap guns or Berettas , or bennelli , the score between 2 shooters has a lot more to do with their focus and skill than the gun they are holding

given you can spend more than the 325 for an entry level gun I would suggest a semi auto they are less punishing on old bones as the gas system helps with recoil.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I got my last 2 mossberg combo guns for about 225-250 each a 500A 12ga and a 500C 20ga each with a vent rib with screw in accu-choke and a slug barrel

I haven't shot them a lot but I can be one a rabbit fast with either one and represent a terrific bargain in hunting arm with easy to find parts and accessories , chokes are reasonably priced and they pattern well and fit me well

I grew up on Remington products , 870 and 1100 and I still like them but that safety on top is fast for jump shooting rabbits and pheasants , my dog is gun shy , rescue dog came that way , so when I go out i am the dog I stop through till I flush one then have to get it quick

[Blammer]

Get a rem 1100 12ga that shoot's 3" shells. I'd recommend a 28" barrel, Modified or full choke.

Learn to shoot it and you can hit pretty much anything in the air.

I've used one for YEARS and years shooting trap and skeet, hunting ducks, quail, pheasant, dove, etc...

soft of the shoulder and good shooting.

so there is my suggestion, if not that type and brand, get a good pump gun with the same barrel and choke setup, hard to go wrong in my opinion.

[Oreo]

What's the difference between the Rem 1100 and the 11-87?

Something like a Rem 11-87 appeals to me. Looks like a gun that can do almost everything.

I don't have a specific purpose to buy for other then I don't own a shotgun and I'd like to. I want a versatile one for whatever opportunity comes up. All recreational shooting is fun to me. I'm an NRA certified instructor so occasionally I'll take a person shooting for their first time. I've been asked twice now about going to shoot a shotgun so whatever I buy is going to get used for that too.

[HarryT]

Shotguns are like golf clubs, you need a full set for all the various shots. (Acually, you can do it all with a pump shotgun and a few extra barrels and stocks.)

[bob208]

the thing most are over looking in the 870. you want to shoot trap put a trap barrel on it. you want to hunt rabbit put a mod. barrel. hunt deer put the slug barrel on. home defense the slug barrel or the police barrel. with a barrel change it covers all the bases.

[Ithaca Gunner]

Get something that fits you. Something you can swing and come on target with naturally, even with your eyes closed.

[ShooterAZ]

You can't go wrong with the good ol' Remington 870 12 GA. I have the screw in choke model with extra chokes, cylinder, modified, and full. I also have an 18" riot barrel for it. The 18" barrel stays on when I'm not hunting...and is usually within reach should I ever need it inside the house. Hopefully I never will!

[AggieEE]

All good advice, my $0.02 go to the trap range and talk to some of the shooters. Most are really good guys once you get to know them. Buy a box or two of factory ammo, some are picky about who's reloads they'll let shoot in their guns, and ask them if you can try a round or two with one of their guns. You might decide that shotguning is not for you or you may find out that the gun you thought you wanted is not it. You may decide that you need to hold off and add some money to the fund. Fair warning, once you get the smell of shotgun powder up your nose and it catches it can really start to get expensive. I know, I used to shoot about 20 boxes a week just in practice. Good luck, I hope you find the answers to the questions you have.

[Oreo]

Are 870 barrels easy/quick to swap?

[badgerblaster]

Yes they are.
Make sure it's unloaded, rack the slide back, unscrew the magazine cap, swap barrels.
Piece of cake.

[Dragonheart]

I can't tell you what is right for you, but I own or have owned, single barrels, bolt actions, double barrels, pumps, automatics and over and unders. I also have short barrels defensive guns in pump and automatic, so that about covers the gantlet for types of shotguns. You say you know you don't want a defensive shotgun, so you can rule out the short barrel, cylinders in both pump and automatic. However there is an option of having more than one barrel, but the cost goes up. I haven't hunted in years, but when I did, or when I now decide to go break some clay birds, I take an over & under. As far as balance and shotgun that is a pleasure to shoot I personally don't think you can beat an O&U, I know some will disagree. However, quality O&Us get pretty expensive. There are some guns available in in $500 range, but you might want to check out gunbroker.com for a good used gun for a good price if this is the direction you want to go. A good O&U will definitely outlive the original owner. But as already mentioned you need to put your hands on a lot of guns before making your decision. If you have any shotgun friends a trip to the range could tell you more than visiting a whole lot of stores.
.

[rking22]

Another 870 Wingmaster advocate here. I reccomend a used wingmaster at least 15 to 20 years old! If it looks well cared for then it will be a great gun. You will be much better off than with the curent crop of "bargin" 870 express ect. I have bought 2 used 12ga 870s in the last 10 years a 1962 an a 1966, 350$ for the 66, a Skeet C and 125$ for the pristeen 1962 field gun. They always work, don't be affraid of a used one. They pretty much can't be broken and if there is something "not quite right" they are easy and cheap to fix. If you go the pumpgun route, find one of us that love em and learn to operate it. They are no slower to operate than an auto, if you learn to use it. I shoot international skeet with Skeet C 870s.(they made them unapproved after 2012, too much advantage to the pumgun if you ask me :) But I still shoot practice with them.
Same advice about used if you go the 1100 route, 500$ will get you a very nice older example. And if cared for it will last a LONG time, think generations when hunting. Barrels interchange like the 870 but you will need to keep up on the gas rings and clean.
I have been coaching youth since 2003 and this is the advice they get. Sometimes the parents don't listen and the 1100 becomes their second gun :)

Everyone has given execelent advice, I will add that you should try out different guns and see what you enjoy. I have Superposed, 425, Berettas, Sxs guns and single barrells, but I chose a pumpgun above all others because I enjoy it more. Wheather it is a vintage M12,M31 870 or what ever, it needs to please you and it needs to fit, balance well and handle well. And remember, you probably can't stop at only one!

[Petrol & Powder]

WOW - You're going to get a lot of advice on this one!

OK, I'll join the fight;

I'll start by saying Montana Charlie gave the best advice. Figure out what you want the shotgun for before you get a shotgun.
I'll also second Doug Guy, a shotgun is probably the best home defense gun one can obtain. A home defense gun doesn't need to be concealed, carried long distances or require long range accuracy. It does need to be simple to operate under stress, effective and reliable. That criteria screams SHOTGUN !

OK let's move on. If we exclude single shot types we are left with - double barrels, pump actions and semi-auto's, (I'm excluding the weird stuff like the old bolt action Mossberg's and lever action 1887, etc.)
While over and under or side by side double barrels can be outstanding guns, the pumps and semi auto's are probably more versatile and generally less expensive in the long run. Of the pump action vs. the semi-auto the pump action probably offers the most "bang for the buck"; if you'll pardon the pun.

Of the pump guns, none have the track record of the Remington 870.
The 870 started production in 1950 and they never stopped making them! Few repeating shotguns can compete with the value, durability, reliability and versatility of the 870. While no shotgun is a universal fit for everyone, the 870 comes close to at least fitting most people adequately. There are a vast number of barrel options and the gun can be used for just about anything a shotgun would be called upon to do. Upland hunting, waterfowl, deer, self defense, trap, skeet [ if you're good ;-) ] and just about anything else you can think of. The 870 has been successfully used by hunters, military, police and shotgun sport shooters for over 60 years and it is still going strong. It's tough! It's reliable. It's a good value and above all, it works!

As for gauge , 12 gauge is the do-it-all gauge and the most common. The 3" chamber will handle most situations with the possible exception of steel shot for waterfowl hunting and it will even work for that to some degree.
Screw in choke tubes were a game changer in the shotgun world. In the past to get a different choke you had to change barrels at the very least. Now you can have multiple chokes for one barrel. Of course changing barrels on an 870 is simple.

So, for an All-around, do-everything, affordable shotgun with a proven track record, I would have to say the Remington 870.

I have owned and shot a small pile of shotguns. I have borrowed and shot another small pile and worked on some more. If I could only have 1 shotgun it would be a Remington 870 in 12 gauge.

[Petrol & Powder]

What's the difference between the Rem 1100 and the 11-87?

Something like a Rem 11-87 appeals to me. Looks like a gun that can do almost everything.



The Remington 1100 is an older design, gas operated, semi-auto that is well suited to target loads. They are good guns but don't handle diverse loads (heavy vs. light) as well as the newer 11-87 or lots of heavy loads over many years. The 11-87 has a self-adjusting gas mechanism that bleeds off excessive gas when high powered shells are fired but allows lighter shells to cycle. In essence, the 11-87 is an up dated 1100. The major differences are in the gas system and durability. The 11-87 will outlast an 1100 if both are fed heavy loads but that is like saying a 100 pound anvil is stronger than a 95 pound anvil !
Unless you are shooting thousands of rounds of heavy loads, you will likely never see the difference. There is an "O" ring in both guns that is known to fail from time to time but it's an easy fix.

[Love Life]

Because sometimes you just want to bring the ruckus: http://www.homewreckershotguns.com/index.php

[jonp]

I'd say a Bennelli Montifeltro 20g but that is not in your range unless you get a deal from someone that needs the money. In your $500 range a nice, used Rem 1100 20g or 12g would be a very nice shotgun.

[Oreo]

You all have been so helpful. Thank-you.

I have a line on some 20yo 870 wingmaster police trade-ins for real cheap. They're 20" barrels but maybe that's ok if I can just buy other barrels to make the gun fit the other roles I want it to. I like the idea of going from trap gun to home defense configuration with ease. The price means I could buy one for myself and another for my sons for when they're old enough.

Can a 20yo 870 wingmaster (police trade-in) being sold as for 2.75" shells be converted to shoot 3" shells? If so that may seal the deal for me.

[Petrol & Powder]

While we are talking semi-auto shotguns let's explore the different action types.

There are three major types of semi-auto (self loading) shotgun actions:

1. Long Recoil
2. Gas Operated
3. Inertia Operated

LONG RECOIL, guns like the Browning Auto-5, Remington model 11, Remington 11-48 and the Franchi AL-48 are long recoil actions. The barrel and the bolt are locked together at the moment of firing and the barrel and bolt recoil together before the barrel stops and the bolt unlocks. The barrel returns forward, followed by the bolt and a new shell. It results in an unusual recoil impulse that is spread out over the cycle. Some people refer to it as a long push followed by a noticeable return to battery. It's a complicated system but it does work.

GAS OPERATED, The vast majority of semi-auto shotguns fall into this category. The Remington 1100, Remington 11-87, most of the Berretta semi autos including the AL 390 & AL391, Browning Gold and many others. Gas operated shotguns bleed off a small amount of the gas from the barrel and use that gas pressure to operate the action. Most of the gas systems are designed to operate with light loads and vent off the excess pressure generated by heavy loads so that the extra force from firing heavy loads doesn't damage the action. The gas systems are much simpler than the long recoil systems but the gas systems must cope with the hot, dirty gases in the pistons/gas cylinders. They also require vents in the barrels to direct a small portion of gas into the cylinder/piston of the action. FWIW the Berretta 300 series has an excellent track record of durability with the AL391 being my favorite.

INERTIA OPERATED, This is the one that a lot of people misunderstand. These are predominantly the Benelli's and their clones. In the inertia system a rotating bolt is locked to the barrel extension at the moment of firing. The bolt rides in a fairly massive bolt carrier and a heavy spring is fitted between the bolt head and the carrier. When the gun is fired the entire gun recoils, with the exception of the bolt carrier. In essence the gun recoils around the bolt carrier while the bolt carrier remains stationary. Because the bolt is moving reward but the carrier is essentially stationary, the large spring between the bolt head and the carrier is compressed. After the gun recoils slightly that stored energy in the now compressed spring drives the bolt carrier to the rear. As the carrier is forced to the rear by that massive spring, it rotates and unlocks the bolt from the barrel. The bolt and the bolt carrier are then propelled reward to cycle the action. The advantages of the inertia system is that all of the combustion products stay in the barrel and chamber, there is no gas system and there are no action parts forward of the receiver. The drawback is the gun must recoil some in order to work and light loads can be problematic.


All three systems have pros and cons.

[Petrol & Powder]

139849



Can a 20yo 870 wingmaster (police trade-in) being sold as for 2.75" shells be converted to shoot 3" shells? If so that may seal the deal for me.

Yes, as long as it is a "magnum" receiver.

[osteodoc08]

Oreo,

Shotguns are very specialized as are any gun genre. A HD shotgun is vastly different than an upland bird gun vs a trap and skeet gun. Figure out the purpose and we can give you more sound advice.

if speaking in generalities, a used Remington 1100 would fall in your price range. Is a very durable design, despite being a bit heavy and dated compared to newer models. It is a good general purpose gun and would suite you well for general hunting and an occasional skeet round.

The CZ you looked at is an imported Turkish gun. Huglu IIRC. You'll find some that love them but are not in the same league as the "B guns"......Browning and Beretta. My only 2 choices for an OU (personally speaking in that entry price range)

Personally I have 2 shotguns. I have a Browning Citori O/U in 12gauge with 28" barrels. Fixed chokes and I believe they are modified and IC. The other is a Remmy 11-87 Camo in 20 gauge I use for squirrel and rabbit hunting. I've also used it for Turkey and other hunting. Works fine. I'd like to find a used Citori in 20 gauge.

[Petrol & Powder]

A 20 year old Remington 870 is barely broken in :D !!!

If the price was right I would buy a PD trade in 870 in about a nano-second !! In fact I have on more than one occasion. It will be beat up from riding around in a car with little maintenance, used in wet weather and returned to the car, shot without being cleaned but it will likely have been fired very little beyond what was needed for qualification. You can pick up a 28" barrel threaded for choke tubes and have a 20" Improved cylinder barrel and a 28" barrel choked however you want. The receiver will likely be parkerized and a bit rough but who cares? The wood will be beat up but it can easily be refinished, replaced or ignored. It's really hard to go wrong with a solid 870.

[Oreo]

I do hear you guys telling me to figure out what I want to do with the gun first. I have no way of knowing and that's why versatility is important. It doesn't have to be perfect at everything, just reasonably useable for most common things. Later when I've figured out what kind of shotgunning I like best I can buy a more specialized gun for that.

Looks like I need to be leaning towards an 870 magnum of some kind.

[RED333]

A bit more than 500, but it is a hoot to fire.
Saiga 12, choke adapter, rifled choke GK-01 brake, 20 round drum, folding stock.
It is my fav shotty!!!
http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac165/redintn/firearms/S12415122_zpsdced220c.jpg (http://s896.photobucket.com/user/redintn/media/firearms/S12415122_zpsdced220c.jpg.html)
A Vepr are good shotguns as well.
https://www.classicfirearms.com/vepr12gashotgun

[Petrol & Powder]

thank you RED333 for sharing that.


For the rest of us, the 870 is a fine choice.

[CastingFool]

you can't go wrong with a 12ga 870. 3" chamber is more versatile, don't see any need for a 3-1/2"

[wv109323]

I would recommend a 12 gauge because of loads available. For small game and target work a 2 3/4" chamber is fine. Magnums are fine if needed but ammo is expensive compared to 2 3/4" shells. You can not hardly beat Wally World on 100 rounds of 12 gauge for $26-28.00.
I would recommend a screw-in choke system for versatility. Also I would recommend a vented rib barrel for trap or sporting clays. A spare barrel will set you back $150 to $200 bucks so I would decide on one barrel length.
Also if you shoot a lot i would look for something with a recoil pad. As mentioned I would look at Remington 870 and 1100, Ithaca 37, Browning BPS.

[Petrol & Powder]

I can find a spare 870 barrel for less than $75.
A vent rib isn't necessary, it can be nice for trap due to rising targets but is mostly marketing outside of shotgun games.
The Ithaca 37 and the BPS are basically the same gun. I've owned both and still have the 37. Cool gun but the 870 still wins out as the best overall in my book.

[Epd230]

I have owned both the 870 and the Mossberg 500. I prefer the Mossberg due to the safety system.

I have found when on the line with other people watching, when I raise the gun to shoot and forget that the safety is on, the Mossberg's safety is in your direct line of sight and can be used, hopefully without any of your peers noticing your error!

But, that's just me:-D

[Petrol & Powder]

The only safety on a shotgun that I'll ever trust is an empty chamber. I put shotgun safeties in the "fire" position and NEVER place them on safe.

[tonyjones]

Avoid a trap gun for your first/only shotgun. Trap guns are stocked (higher comb) so that the majority of your pattern goes above where you are pointing. This is because trap targets are shot while rising. Field/hunting, skeet and sporting clays guns are stocked to pattern where you point (the pattern will be centered). If you want to use your field, skeet or clays gun on trap you can use it as is or buy an inexpensive lace on pad that will raise the comb. If you fall in love with trap shooting you can buy a dedicated trap gun or buy an aftermarket trap stock.

There are many good shotguns on the market. I would look for a used Remington 870 Wingmaster in 12 ga. with a 26" or 28" vent rib barrel with Rem-choke screw in choke tubes. There are many aftermarket accessories available for these guns. You should be able to find one in very good condition that fits your budget. I can not remember not having at least one 870 in my safe.

Regards,

Tony

[starmac]

Odd man out, I have doubles, 870's and single shots. I personally prefer the doubles for most hunting needs, all or chambered for 3 in, but I never shoot them unlless duck hunting. For just generally shooting I also prefer a 20 over 12 anymore, and would love a nice 16 double.

[Oreo]

I've been researching 870s. Everyone seems to recommend the wingmaster but when I look at the specs the 870 police magnum has the advantage of a forged tool steel extractor vs. mim extractor in all the other versions. How big of a deal is that?

If I go with an 870 I will definitely want both an 18" barrel and a 30".

[Bodean98]

Ithaca Model 37 feather weight!
It's a great starter shotgun to help you figger out what you will be using a shotgun for. Works fine for targets and is light and handy in the field. I wouldn't put much worry into a magnum of any sort for starters, unless you REALLY enjoy recoil!
I found it hard to believe no one had mentioned this model yet.

[Petrol & Powder]

I've been researching 870s. Everyone seems to recommend the wingmaster but when I look at the specs the 870 police magnum has the advantage of a forged tool steel extractor vs. mim extractor in all the other versions. How big of a deal is that?

If I go with an 870 I will definitely want both an 18" barrel and a 30".

I wasn't aware that Remington was using MIM parts on the 870 but there's no real stress on the extractor and despite all of the hoopla over MIM parts they seem to work just fine. I wouldn't make a decision based on that. BTW, the trigger group is made out of some white metal (aluminum IIRC), a LARGE number of parts are stamped steel and the magazine follower is plastic. Who cares ? When the 870 was introduced is was criticized for being "that punch press gun", due to its lack of forged steel parts. Remington used forged steel parts where they were needed and to keep costs down; inexpensive stampings wherever they could. The result was an inexpensive gun that was reliable and durable. They must have done something right because it has been in continuous production for over 60 years and they have made over 10 million to date !

[Petrol & Powder]

Bodean98 - I agree! The Ithaca 37 is a great shotgun. The design actually pre-dates the Remington 870 but the gun doesn't have the same continuous production run. The Ithaca 37 is based on the Remington Model 17 (as in model of 1917, first produced in 1921) which in turn was a John Browning design with a patent date of 1915. Ithaca later acquired the rights to produce the gun. The Browning BPS is also based on the same basic design although there are some differences.
The Ithaca 37 is somewhat unusual in that it loads and ejects from the bottom of the receiver. That bottom ejecting design makes it a favorite with left handed shooters. The LAPD used Ithaca 37 shotguns for a loooong time and although AR-15 rifles are becoming common the 37 can still be seen in use.
Even with its steel receiver the Ithaca is generally lighter than similar steel models by other makers, helping to earn the "featherweight" label. Some Ithaca 37's have replaceable barrels and some do not. The bolt locks to the receiver and not the barrel so if they become loose from wear, they are considerably more difficult to repair. The chamberings are a bit more limited with the 37 (but I agree the 2 3/4" shell will handle most tasks outside of waterfowl and steel shot). A little bit of trivia, the older Ithaca 37's do not have trigger disconnectors. If you hold the trigger back and work the action the gun will fire every time the action closes ! I can't recommend that practice but it is exciting !
The 37 is a great shotgun and I will never part with mine but the ubiquitous 870 is more versatile. If I was looking for ONE shotgun the 870 would still get the nod which is in no way a slight against the fine Ithaca 37.

[bangerjim]

Get one of each gage! It is nice to choose which one you want to shoot that day.

12ga shells are dirt cheap. Others no so much, but fun to shoot. Slugs are a "blast"! :lol:

[Oreo]

My first will absolutely be a 12 gage. If I develop an interest in other gages I'll choose those later.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Showing up with some 12 ga ammo and talking to the guys at the trap field is really good advice. A lot of guys will be happy to let you try out a gun with your own ammo and give you free advice. The only problem is a lot of the professional clay shooters won't recommend anything other than a "B" gun (browning, beretta, benelli) as a starter gun. You will be well served by an Remington 870 as a starter gun at the range, and they make a great field gun.

[Petrol & Powder]

My first will absolutely be a 12 gage. If I develop an interest in other gages I'll choose those later.

12 gauge is certainly the most common and probably the most useful.

16 gauge is a cool idea, halfway between 12 & 20 but it is exceedingly rare and getting rarer by the day
20 gauge is a great shell for most upland bird applications and some of the shooting sports but because you start out with fewer pellets the margin of error is smaller. I really like 20 gauge when the gun is built on the smaller 20 gauge frame, it is a handicap when the gun is built on a 12 gauge frame with a 20 gauge barrel. A 20 gauge is the smallest gun I will start a new shotgunner on.
The 28 gauge is very expensive and almost as rare as the 16 not to mention the even greater reduction in shot payload.
And then you have the .410, which despite what a lot of people think, it is NOT a beginners gun but rather an expert's gun.

because of the larger shot load (1 ounce to 1 1/8 oz) the 12 gauge is a much easier gun to hit with for a beginner shotgun shooter. 28GA and .410 are expert's guns. The .410 only launches 1/2 ounce of shot!

[Petrol & Powder]

Nominal pellet count by weight. #8 shot

1 1/8 ounce (typical 12 ga load) = 461 pellets
1 ounce (12 ga light target load ) = 410 pellets
7/8 ounce (20 ga load) = 359 pellets
3/4 ounce (3" .410 load ) = 308 pellets
1/2 ounce (2 1/2" .410 payload) = 205 pellets

[Bodean98]

P&P,
The model 37 was my first shotgun. My dad gave it to me for my 14th birthday. Paid $90 for it in 1975. I still have it and will never get rid of it! My go to gun is a Citori upland special 12 ga. but the Ithaca is a very close second. It is also one of the "fire hose" models. You cand really send out some lead FAST!
I posses many shotguns (too many if you ask my wife!) and as has been stated here before they each are singular of purpose.
I personally prefer the 37 over the 870. YMMV

[Oreo]

I think I have decided on an 870 police magnum (18" ), and a second 30" barrel. Wood stock & fore end if I can find one like so. The police magnum has a few upgraded parts and is good for the 3" shells if ever I desire.

I'm going to try to find one locally on Friday otherwise I'll order one online from somewhere.

Thank-you all again.

[MarkP]

Used 1100 / 11-87 or an 870 with preference to the 11-87. There are so many parts and accessories available for these shotguns.

[Oreo]

Can the barrels be swapped on the 11-87 as easily as the 870?
ETA: Found my own answer on youtube. (yes)

[Petrol & Powder]

Bodean98 = I prefer the 37 over the 870 as well but I believe for the OP's situation the 870 is a better choice for him.

[Lonegun1894]

I prefer the Mossberg 500 personally, but it and the Rem 870 are the two top pump guns, so it is really a Ford vs. Chevy thing with those two. I have single-shots, SxSs, etc, but have more 500s set up different ways than any other shotgun. You won't go wrong with your chosen 870. Now it's just a question of how exactly you will end up configuring it to suit your uses.

[Oreo]

I will have wood furniture, 30"bbl with bead sights as the standard. I'll also have an 18"bbl for a pseudo-home defense set-up. I say pseudo because I will be using it only for demonstration in that configuration. I have other home defense guns. Sometimes, (eg. this Friday) someone will ask me to help them choose their first gun as a home defense measure. I take them to the range, teach them the basics, and let them try out some different types of guns. An 18" 870 has been a conspicuous absence from that line-up.

[Lonegun1894]

You may have other guns for the home defense role, but I would bet that unless you have a need to shoot past 50 yards, you do not have any better guns for home defense. Rifles and handguns put holes in people, but with the right load, shotguns disassemble people. I had "an opportunity" to use myself and see others use all three types of weapons mostly overseas, and saw the results of various types of all three weapons types in terms of effectiveness of how quickly they incapacitated threats and the types of wounds inflicted. You are severely handicapping yourself by refusing to consider using the most effective weapon you have to protect your loved ones.

[Oreo]

I'd never refuse to use it. I'll use whatever is most quickly available. I'm shopping with a different primary objective though because I do have the home defense covered adequately already. If this purchase supplements home defense then that's a bonus.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I recently bought a 1987 police magnum pollice trade in shot gun , if the receiver says magnum it takes 3 inch shells otherwise not , but the barrels are the same you just can't shoot 3 inch mag shells form a 2 3/4 reciver , but the 2/34 barrel fits on the mag reciver and the mag barrel fits on the 2 3/4 inch reciever

20 years was 1995 , that was well into magnum lineage most new shotguns guns sold in 1995 chambered 3 inch especially police but you probably don't need the 3 inchers for much of anything I never use them unless duck or goose and that is because it is steel shot and less effective than lead.


You all have been so helpful. Thank-you.

I have a line on some 20yo 870 wingmaster police trade-ins for real cheap. They're 20" barrels but maybe that's ok if I can just buy other barrels to make the gun fit the other roles I want it to. I like the idea of going from trap gun to home defense configuration with ease. The price means I could buy one for myself and another for my sons for when they're old enough.

Can a 20yo 870 wingmaster (police trade-in) being sold as for 2.75" shells be converted to shoot 3" shells? If so that may seal the deal for me.

[Petrol & Powder]

A little off topic but I want build on what Lonegun1894 posted.

A shotgun is an extremely effective weapon at short ranges. It is always my first choice for home defense.
A home defense gun doesn't need to be carried concealed, in fact, it rarely needs to be carried much at all. It doesn't need to be used at long ranges. It does need to be easy to use under stress. It needs to be intuitive to use and easy to hit with. It needs to be reliable and it helps if it doesn't cost a fortune. Shotguns, particularly pump action shotguns, are well suited for home defense.

Shotguns aren't as sexy or cool as assault style rifles or some black, high capacity semi-auto combat style pistol but shotguns are very effective self defense tools.

People have all kinds of opinions about which loads to use and I'm not going to get into that discussion. I will say that at very short ranges shot behaves much like a slug regardless of the shot size. Picking some small shot size under the theory that a couple of pieces of sheetrock is going to stop an errant blast is probably folly. No sane person wants to send a slug out of the room they're standing in but relying on pellet size instead of shot placement for safety is probably a bad idea. The good news is that at household ranges (assuming you don't live in a giant mansion!) the spread of shot is fairly small and that small pattern easily centered.

Never underestimate the value of a shotgun as a defensive weapon.

[starmac]

My dad, thought an 870 was the only firearm a guy ever needed, with only one barrel, it worked for everything from dove to geese, squirrel to deer.

[starbits]

I am an 870 guy also. I have 3 in the safe now along with 2 Winchester model 12s which I never seem to use and a Rem model 11 semiauto that was my Dads. I highly recommend the 870, but here are a couple questions for you. Why a 30 inch barrel instead of the more standard 28 or even 26 inch? This goes back to Montana Charlies question what are you going to use it for. I would consider a 30 inch barrel more of a long range barrel.

Second question which is more important, do you have other long guns you shoot? I am right handed and shoot pistols fine right handed, but I am left eye dominant and all long guns have to be shot left handed. If you don't know which is your dominant eye it would behove you to find out. You can shoot a right handed 870 left handed, I did for a long time, but the safety is very difficult unless it gets modified.

Starbits

[starmac]

I also shoot left handed, and my 870's are right handed. They do make a lefty version, I just have never bought one.

[Petrol & Powder]

........ Why a 30 inch barrel instead of the more standard 28 or even 26 inch? This goes back to Montana Charlies question what are you going to use it for. I would consider a 30 inch barrel more of a long range barrel..............


Starbits

Valid point.

While a 30" barrel is acceptable for a break action single shot or double barrel, it may be approaching the limit when you attach that barrel 6" in front of the trigger of a pump action receiver. A break action (hinge action) double barrel has a very compact receiver and can tolerate a longer barrel without compromising the overall length of the gun. A pump action or semi-auto has a significantly longer receiver that must be taken into consideration.
Barrels longer than 30" have a lot of muzzle forward weight and can be slow to get into action.

A barrel shorter than 26" is a bit too "whip like" or "twitchy". Fast on target but far more difficult when trying to establish a lead.

A 28" barrel is a good compromise when dealing with moving targets.


It gets a little fuzzy when you add a relatively long receiver to the barrel and there is some argument that a 26" barrel on a pump action is equal to a 28" on a double barrel. I any event, 26" - 28" barrel seems to be a very good compromise when attached to a pump action or semi-auto receiver.

The old myths about longer barrels "hitting harder" have little science behind them. While a muzzle heavy 28" barrel may make it easier to center the PATTERN on the target......there is very little ballistic difference between a 28" barrel, a 26" barrel and a 30" barrel. The differences in length are more about the swing than they are about terminal performance of the shot.

[starmac]

No science to back this up, but I have an old single barrel with a 36 barrel in on it. I took it to the turkey shoot at Huffman Texas two years running. They had one entry that the one with the most pellets in the 1 foot square target won. You had to use #( low brass shells supplied by them. They let me shoot twice both years, to win both a turkey and a ham, then I could keep entering IF I wanted to shoot one of the house supplied over and unders. lol Many of the guys that entered would not get the first pellet in the target, most would get 10 to 15, they didn't bother counting mine as the target was literally peppered every time.

I bought that old gun used at a pawnshop in Texas when I was 13, and way more than paid for it betting other kids they wouldn't shoot it twice, I never lost at 5 bucks a pop, what they didn't realize was I always kept a couple 3" mags in a pocket and would slip one in when it was their turn. lol

[bear67]

I am late to this party, but IMHO if a shooter could own only one shotgun it would be an 870. My dad shot an 870 all my life with a 30" FC barrel on ducks and squirrels and 28" MC on quail. I have his and several more with a "box" of barrels. Most dependable gun in my stable, if not the favorite. (sorry I was ruined as a kid and love the humpbacks and shot lots of Bobwhites with my old A-5 but own Stevens and Rem 11 clones).
But back to the 870s--I would rather have the older Wingmasters as they are famously reliable and look a little sharper than the new Express models--fit and finish. I coached 4-H trap and skeet for years and if a youngster did not have a shotgun, I suggested an Adult 870 and we kept youth length stocks which could be changed. Then a barrel could be purchases for trap and one for skeet that matched length and chokes with the shooters abilities and needs. I love the 37 and gave mine to a left handed grand daughter because of the bottom eject.

Anyone got a good Wingmaster for sale--need one for middle grand son and sure don't want to give up one already resident in my safe.

[Oreo]

Check out Summit Gunbroker.

When I said 30"bbl I just meant a bbl longer then 18" for trap or whatever else. I thought 30" was standard. Its a good thing I've got you guys to set me straight. So, 26" or 28" it will likely be then.

[Petrol & Powder]

Oreo - that's a good call on barrel length. A 28" barrel on an 870 yields an over all length of close to 48" for the entire gun (depending on the length of pull of the butt stock). That's getting awfully long for a gun carried afield but may be OK for some waterfowl type shooting.
A 26" barrel on a 870 receiver is a good compromise for hunting and shotgun sports and some people will drop that back to 24" for youth models but it becomes difficult to maintain a smooth swing as you reduce that muzzle forward weight. 26" -28" is about right for sporting use and 26" may be a bit more "portable" in the woods.

By the way, although there are certainly police 870's with 18" barrels, a lot of them are actually equipped with 20" barrels bored with an improved cylinder choke.

[Oreo]

Do you guys recommend an extra pad or something on the stock? I just came back from the range. The target loads of #8 were ok but shooting slugs and 00 were no fun. Maybe I'm just a sissy or doing it wrong. I did get the 30sec crash course from the gun shop so I think I'm holding things correctly.

[DougGuy]

These are great for a day at the range with a long gun:

http://www.amazon.com/Caldwell-350010-Field-Shield/dp/B0009TRNRK/ref=pd_sim_200_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=1NRCR2WGH56DGPH0QS2S

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Guns/PastShoulderPad_zpsbeu6oad5.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Guns/PastShoulderPad_zpsbeu6oad5.jpg.html)

[Lonegun1894]

Make sure you hold it into your shoulder tight, cause holding it loose hurts. Some of mine have buttpads, others don't, and it seems to be a matter of what the main use is. My slug guns have buttpads.

[Oreo]

I was holding it tight. That much for sure. I'm thinking I need some kind of buttpad.

[Lonegun1894]

Sorry, hope that wasn't out of line. Its just that holding the shotgun too loose or even a bit off the shoulder is probably the most common mistake I see with shotguns and CF rifles. If you had it tight against your shoulder, and pulling forward on the forearm, and it still bothered you, then I would definitely go for a buttpad. Also, you will get used to it as you use it more and the gun will just grow on you, so I wouldn't worry too much. So how do you like it so far?

[Oreo]

It wasn't out of line. Especially since it is the most common mistake.

I found that Remington makes a softer buttpad specifically for the 870. Reading the product reviews shows that I am not at all alone in my complaint. Common was the testimonial of firing 10rds of buckshot/slugs and being very sore. Apparently the softer pad makes a world of difference. Then it occurred to me, the reason the OE buttpad hurts is that the rubber is so hard its not conforming to my shoulder to spread out the recoil force evenly. I'm going to buy Remington's softer buttpad and try again. My first experience at the range with my 870 was not an enjoyable one.

I think Remington put too hard of a buttpad on originally on purpose knowing it would prompt a lot of folks to make the add-on purchase of the softer pad.

[Petrol & Powder]

Recoil, when talking shotguns that subject always appears.
Recoil is a bit subjective, what one person tolerates another finds unpleasant. Some of it comes from experience, some from technique. Lonegun is correct about holding the stock firm to your shoulder. Recoil depends on a mixture of variables such as: gun weight, projectile weight & velocity. All else being equal, heavy guns produce less felt recoil than light guns. All else being equal, heavier shot charges produce more felt recoil than lighter ones.
I've always found the fit of the gun to be more important than the pad itself. The more you shoot the more you exercise muscles that you need to shoot. It does get better with time & practice. I would recommend you avoid heavy shot charges and magnum loads until you are comfortable with the gun. Heavy loads do NOTHING but ingrain fear and bad habits.

As for Slugs & Buckshot, yes they can generate more recoil. Bad shooting positions will only exaggerate the felt recoil. I would practice with lighter loads first so you don't develop bad habits.

Learn to love, not hate, your shotgun and you will find that it is a good tool.

[Petrol & Powder]

Oreo, by the way, if you purchased an old police shotgun I can just about assure you that the rubber butt pad has hardened over time. A 20+ year old butt pad that was attached to a gun in a hot police car for 20 years is going to be hard as a rock.

[Oreo]

Its brand-spanking-new. Still almost hard as a rock.

[Silfield]

Apologies I have come into this thread a bit late but what about a nice Martini actioned Greener-traditional looking, lots of wood, single barrel, cheap, almost indestructible and a really nice feel to them.
I paid a deposit on one recently and am just waiting for the paperwork to come back from the police (UK!) before I can go and pick it up and have a bit of fun.

[popper]

I have 12 & 20ga. Maverick version of the 500 (wally world), an 1187 (GS claims it as his - even though he has an 870). The 870's lock up on bent rim 'estate' ammo, Maverick doesn't. 2 3/4 is all you need. I actually did >60% on sporting clays the first time out with the 12 Maverick. If NOT hunting, you can put 4 in the tube, most ranges only allow 2. Yea, I have an A400 which is great but practice with the Mavericks.

[AggieEE]

Oreo, two things about recoil. One, fit is everything. You want to be able to look at a spot on the wall close your eyes bring the gun up, unloaded of course, open your eyes and be on target, mostly. If a stock is too long or too short it puts you in a strained position. Chances are your face will be off the comb a little. Then when you pull the trigger look out. Two, there are some very good "magnum" recoil pads out there that are thicker and softer than "normal" ones. I put one on a Ruger Redlabel 20ga. to adjust the length of pull for me, at 6'3" and 280+ there are very few shotgun stocks that are too long for me. One final thought, target loads are in the 1200 fps range full house 00buck is 1300+. Think 30-06 vs. 300 Win Mag. A good gunsmith with lots of shotgun experance or one of the skeet experts can help you check the fit of the shotgun to you. Once everything fits right and with practice the targets seem to break just from the force of your will, no thought involved just I want that target to break. Good luck and enjoy.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

AggieEE is correct about the fit and softer thicker recoil pads help . but slugs just always hit harder , I told you in an earlier post you don't need 3 or 3 1/2 mags unless your trying for extended range geese and ducks , otherwise they are just punishing.

slugs are trying to get 1600fps while a trap load is 1200 with the same weight it is like 38sp vs 357 mag the same weight bullet but 400 fps faster the Mag barks and recoils harder.

you just don't shoot lots and lots of slugs generally , enough to get sighted in then go deer hunting , you don't feel the recoil near as much when your target is dinner.

[Oreo]

AggieEE, eventually when I get the trap barrel I will spend some time making sure the stock fits me proper. I appreciate your advice on that.

Greencountypete, I do understand about the 3" & 3.5" mags now. There's just no good reason to do that to myself short of putting dinner on the table.

[Oreo]

So the new buttpad made the difference as night and day. It's a direct replacement from Remington for the rubber buttpad that came on the stock. I actually enjoyed launching some 00 buck down range today. It felt good. It felt right.

[Lonegun1894]

That is GREAT news! Have you tried slugs yet? They seem to recoil just slightly more in my Mossberg 500, but it is just barely noticeable that they recoil more, so not bad at all.

[Lonegun1894]

Greencountypete, I do understand about the 3" & 3.5" mags now. There's just no good reason to do that to myself short of putting dinner on the table.

Every 12ga I have has a 3" chamber with the only exception being my Mossberg 835 and it has a 3.5". My shotguns get a good workout every year, with a lot of use, but I don't think I have fired more than 50 of the 3.5" shells in about ten years of owning that 835, and fire maybe 200 shells at most of the 3" stuff per year, mostly to maintain confidence and stay in practice with it, but I probably fire 200-300 of the 2 3/4" shells to stay in practice per month, and also use the same 2 3/4" slugs when hunting where a shotgun is required for hogs. The only place where the 3" or 3.5" shells are my preference is when turkey hunting with either my Mossberg 835 (with the 3.5"s) or 3"s my 18.5" Mossberg 500 that I had threaded for chokes. For some reason, both those guns just shoot VERY tight patterns with 2 OZs of #6 shot, but the rest of my guns do just as well with a 2 3/4" shell as a 3" so I may as well use the cheaper and less abusive ammo.

[Oreo]

I tried slugs with the old buttpad but not yet with the new one. I'm sure they would be fine too. They weren't that much different then the 00.

I found a really good article online that explained the what-for of the 3.5" shells. Sounds like they're mostly unnecessary now with the new tungsten matrix shot.

[Petrol & Powder]

3.5" are mostly used to compensate for the lower density of steel shot mandated in waterfowl hunting. Steel pellets are lighter than lead pellets of the same size so larger pellets are used to bring the individual pellet weight back up. Bigger pellets take up more space so the shell is made longer to keep the pellet count up to an acceptable level. The tungsten matrix and bismuth loads are another way to comply with the no lead requirement for waterfowl and they often can eliminate the need for 3.5" shells.
Some turkey hunters use 3.5" shells when they are using larger pellets in an attempt to increase effective range while still keeping a decent pellet count. Bigger pellets equal fewer pellets so you use a longer shell to get the number of pellets higher. For a turkey hunter that is only going to shoot once, it's well worth the recoil.
For breaking targets or upland hunting the 2 3/4" is still king and far more useful/economical/pleasant, etc.