How much end play is acceptable for a near-perfect revolver?

[Whiterabbit]

This is inspired by the Freedom Arms endplay thread below.

I have a ruger, I pulled out the feeler gauges. The .005 won't go at all, the .004 goes in super easy. So, maybe .0045, who knows the tenths fractional.

I have .002 shims. I can shim with one or two shims. I experimented weeks ago with a single shim, and super glued it in place as a temporary hold-it to get the cylinder in place. The glue layer of course had thickness so when I got it in the end play was basically imperceptible at that point, but I did not measure it.

Now I want a permanent fix. That likely means soft soldering in place. (If I can, the shims are stainless and I don't have a good track record of soldering stainless to alloy steel). Begs the question:

1 or two shims? if I can get zero-clearance fit with two shims in place then my endplay will be <.001. Which may lead to cylinder rotation issues, etc....or will it?

Alternative is to solder with a "thick" layer of solder, .001 or .002 in there, which may even just happen naturally.

Custom revolver owners, what's your cylinder gap? .001?

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Edit: I think people are reading the word "gap" in the last sentence above and getting confused, even though every last bit of the post above that last sentence can only refer to cylinder end shake in the frame window. This thread has nothing to do with barrels at all.

Thanks!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I haven't worked on a Ruger for a long time, but it seems to me that the clearance as you've described it is about right. S&Ws often run .006. What I've encountered in more than one revolver is that rapid fire of just a few shots can heat the cylinder enough that it expands against the rear of the forcing cone and binds the cylinder to the point that it won't turn. I'd leave it as-is. But, as an aside, I'm also not familiar with reducing end shake by soldering. Brownell's sells some tiny washers that can tighten cylinders up by disassembling the cylinder from the yoke/crane and putting on the washer of the desired thickness.

[gray wolf]

Why are you looking for near zero end shake for the cylinder to barrel fit ?

I don't believe it's recommended, and what are you hopping to gain ?

.003 to .004 at rest gap and .001 end shake should be just fine. ( hope I said that correctly )

Getting it to tight will run the risk of tying up the pistol.

Not sure what you tried to do with the Glue.

But a simple answer would be; .003 to .005 is very acceptable.

this also
Brownell's sells some tiny washers that can tighten cylinders up by disassembling the cylinder from the yoke/crane and putting on the washer of the desired thickness.

[DougGuy]

You need to leave that Ruger alone! If you take the slack out of a Ruger, it will shoot itself loose in no time. Revolvers need movement.

There is NOTHING, let me say again, NOTHING wrong with the endplay you have.

Soft solder will not stick to the cylinder, and even if it did, it would pound out before you got two cylinders full fired downrange.

[rhouser]

If you are trying for a match pistol, maybe go as tight as you want. If you want a service pistol, listen to Grey Wolf. A revolver that won't revolve becomes a club. Just my 2 cents. rch

[Outpost75]

End shake is the difference in cylinder gap with and without the rear. 059 gage in place.

[Whiterabbit]

I'm a little confused now. Some of the same folks in here saying .004 end shake is OK are some of the same folks saying in other threads that a revolver should have no perceptible end shake (but side to side movement OK and desirable)

So which is it?

So we are absolutely clear, I am taking about being able to wiggle the cylinder forward and backward linearly in the frame of the revolver. No side to side and no cylinder tilt.

[Whiterabbit]

End shake more than 0.002 is too much.
Check wobble with the hammer down and trigger held back. Should be no perceptiblemovement.


"Setting the endshake to as close to zero as possible results in increased frame and ratchet/star life, better action quality in S&W guns, extended service intervals on Colts, and better accuracy on all guns. That's why it is one of the first things I check on any revolver that comes in to my shop!"
http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/3209f130b2430cae4129a3f52ac0d2d5-127.html


You NEED cylinder play. but should have no end shake.

There is more, even on this forum, but I'd have to dig for more than a couple minutes.

So some say none, some say lots. And FA and custom builders tend to go towards none. So how to quantify "none"?

[44man]

Very true, a hot cylinder will bind. Need some movement. I did not take out feeler gauges for my SBH and just moved it by hand, Can barely feel it after 79,000 + rounds. But there is some, maybe .004" or a tad more.
Want to have fun? Shoot an 80 round IHMSA match with no end play, in the heat of summer.
Leave the gun alone! It is as good as it gets.
Whiterabbit, you know I will never pull your chain, so please stay away from it.

[Hannibal]

Perhaps you are confusing end shake and cylinder gap? In either case, I would agree that the measurements you have provided sound fine.

[44man]

No end shake that I said is not correct, you need a minimum amount but not where a cylinder slams back and forth. Allow for expansion only. More then that makes a slide hammer. Will .002" be good, sure if you keep the gun cooler.
But you know the feel of end shake is so small it can be felt as none at all.
I relate end shake to worn guns that really have it. Recoil can indent the ratchet into the recoil plate, dry guns wear both ends.
Can I amend what I said? I was wrong about none, just hard to feel by hand. I have STP on my guns and to feel movement by hand won't be done much. But there really is some.
Put a dial indicator on the cylinder lock grooves, you might have .060" there but the closer you get to center, the less it will be. End play of .004" to .005" is perfect and will not be felt much by hand.

[Hannibal]

I was actually replying to Whiterabbit. I should have specified. Apologies.

[Whiterabbit]

Perhaps you are confusing end shake and cylinder gap? In either case, I would agree that the measurements you have provided sound fine.

Absolutely not. I have never referenced cylinder gap to the barrel anywhere, anyhow. Any suggestion that the topic of this thread has to do with the barrel to cylinder gap is mistaken and read my post wrong.

This subject is ONLY end shake. How well the cylinder fits in the cylinder window from front to back. That's it.

Edit: I edited the first post to clarify that the word "gap" in the last sentence is a modifier of the rest of the first post, and not introducing a new topic. The topic is cylinder in frame, nothing to do with barrels.

Zero barrel discussion.

[youngmman]

Before adjusting the end shake (Barrel/Cylinder gap) sure to true up the chamber end of the barrel. Brownell's sells a kit to do just that as well as forcing cone reamers and polishers as part of the kit. Once that is done then adjust the end shake to between .003-.006" with the shims from Brownell's and you will likely improve the accuracy a great deal. At least that was the case with several S&W's of mine but I have never owned a Ruger double action.

[Whiterabbit]

No end shake that I said is not correct, you need a minimum amount but not where a cylinder slams back and forth. Allow for expansion only. More then that makes a slide hammer. Will .002" be good, sure if you keep the gun cooler.
. End play of .004" to .005" is perfect and will not be felt much by hand.

Thing is, end shake of .004 is easily noticable. it frankly feels quite sloppy. I agree that at some point it must be unnoticeable despite being there, and feel tight. Of course it cannot be zero, since that would lock up.

So the question is what to the custom builders build to? .002? do they build to feel? Do they even build to .001 and assume their customers wont shoot much out of their fancy revolvers (enough to lock up the works from thermal expansion)

or?

So it's clear you feel that .002 is a good target for a gun that doesn't get shot enough to get hot. and would target .003+ easy which can readily be felt, amending the idea that a revolver should have zero end shake. What about other folks? What do other folks feel about how much end shake is appropriate in a revolver?

Because most folks here would say a revolver has a problem or is worn if they could feel end shake.

[Whiterabbit]

Before adjusting the end shake (Barrel/Cylinder gap) sure to true up the chamber end of the barrel. Brownell's sells a kit to do just that as well as forcing cone reamers and polishers as part of the kit. Once that is done then adjust the end shake to between .003-.006" with the shims from Brownell's and you will likely improve the accuracy a great deal. At least that was the case with several S&W's of mine but I have never owned a Ruger double action.

My apologies. Again, I never said anything about barrels. This topic is supposed to be only about cylinders in frame windows. Nothing to do with barrels.

Did I make a nomenclature mistake somewhere? If I type "end play" or "end shake" into google I get endless discussions about cylinder-in frame tolerance, but nothing about barrel-cylinder gap. What do you all think is supposed to be meant by end shake or end play? What term was I supposed to use to discuss cylinder-frame?

[44man]

Fully understood my friend. GAP is another thing. Some think smaller is better, what trash. Smaller means more pressure jetting for gun damage. .002" is more accurate and .006" is not, get real.
How does anyone relate gap size to accuracy?

[bhn22]

Which Ruger revolver is this?

[Petrol & Powder]

Perhaps you are confusing end shake and cylinder gap? In either case, I would agree that the measurements you have provided sound fine.

YES /\

End SHAKE is not the same thing as Barrel to Cylinder gap.

They are related measurements but are two very different things.

Barrel to Cylinder Gap [BC Gap] : the measurement between the forcing cone and the front face of the cylinder. (generally taken as the maximum amount of gap with the cylinder held to the rear).

End Shake : the difference between the maximum BC Gap and the minimum BC Gap. To determine end shake you measure the gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone (breach end of the barrel) with the cylinder held as far forward as possible AND THEN you repeat the measurement with the cylinder held to the rear. The amount of END SHAKE is the DIFFERENCE between those two measurements.

A little BC gap is required for proper functioning and acceptable limits are well defined. End Shake should be held to the minimum that allows proper functioning. Excessive Barrel to Cylinder gap will result in some small loss of velocity and maybe some flame cutting in extreme loadings but excessive end shake will rapidly increase wear and damage to the gun.

[rking22]

Coppied this from Clements custom guns on their GP100 conversion I am drooling over. itl. mine:
GP100 .357 Mag. conversion to 10mm: Factory cyl. is utilized in this conversion, refitted to frame with no endshake, linebored, and rechambered to 10mm. Back of cyl. is cut for full moon clips and chamber mouths chamfered for easier reloading. Factory barrel is rebored to .40 cal. and caliber designation removed. Proper caliber is remarked on frame. Barrel is refitted to receiver, recrowned, and forcing cone cut to 11 degrees. Barrel/ cyl. gap set to .005".

[Hannibal]

Absolutely not. I have never referenced cylinder gap to the barrel anywhere, anyhow. Any suggestion that the topic of this thread has to do with the barrel to cylinder gap is mistaken and read my post wrong.

This subject is ONLY end shake. How well the cylinder fits in the cylinder window from front to back. That's it.

Edit: I edited the first post to clarify that the word "gap" in the last sentence is a modifier of the rest of the first post, and not introducing a new topic. The topic is cylinder in frame, nothing to do with barrels.

Zero barrel discussion.

I understand that you yourself are addressing only end shake. However, I believe some of the threads you have referenced have combined end shake and cylinder clearance without distinction, which has in turn confused you.

Hope this helps.

[jrayborn]

I shim my Ruger S/A revolvers in order to eliminate as much frame/cylinder gap (not barrel/cylinder) as is reasonable. So far with six revolvers a .002 shim nearly eliminates the end shake. With such a small sample size it my not be accurate, but it seems reasonable that Ruger shoots for around .003 gap between the cylinder nose and the frame.

I do agree with 44man about the slide hammer effect of a loose fit in this area. I don't like the idea of the cylinder getting a running start back as you shoot to slam the ratchet into the rear of the frame. I use a heavy grease on those surfaces to keep things well lubricated. I am nnot sure if this is wholly peace of mind, or if there is any true benefit I will see while I possess these firearms. I say that because it may take more rounds than I can shoot to tell.

At any rate, its what I do, and why. If nothing else it allows me to tinker on my toys while I am not on the range :)

[youngmman]

If the chamber end of the barrel isn't true the barrel/cylinder gap cannot be accurate. See a gunsmith and let him adjust it. FYI the two are not separable if you want a credible job. It's all integrated.

This comes from the S&W service center, armorer, Cheshire & Perez, in Monrovia, CA from the mid 70's when I had the same problem.

Ignore it if you feel you should after all it's your gun.

[44man]

STP oil treatment has provided me with the best cushion at both ends.
I just tried to feel movement on my BFR's and dang they are tight, I can't feel it at all. Might try and measure. Don't know if it is the STP that keeps me from feeling it or not.

[happie2shoot]

Synthetic grease is good too for both ends, I really like the grease on the ratchet and paw/hand.

Year ago, 1987 88, I was lucky enough to get a revolver smithing class from Ron Powers, he
does market those SS bushings, I would put one in and if your BC gap is over .006'' you may
want to consider setting the barrel back too.

On my guns I always lapped the cylinders in the frame and set the barrel back to .002'' to .003'',
when you lap the high spots off it makes things better, shooting a lot will peen some of the high
spots off too.

Something else that will help if you want to really perfect that gun is get Veral Smiths book,

JACKETED PERFORMANCE WITH CAST BULLETS
By Veral Smith

http://www.lbtmoulds.com/books.shtml

[Texantothecore]

.004 to .006 seems to work well in all revolvers, black powder through modern revolvers. Heat is the issue and possibly some fouling.

[youngmman]

Synthetic grease is good too for both ends, I really like the grease on the ratchet and paw/hand.

Year ago, 1987 88, I was lucky enough to get a revolver smithing class from Ron Powers, he
does market those SS bushings, I would put one in and if your BC gap is over .006'' you may
want to consider setting the barrel back too.

On my guns I always lapped the cylinders in the frame and set the barrel back to .002'' to .003'',
when you lap the high spots off it makes things better, shooting a lot will peen some of the high
spots off too.

Something else that will help if you want to really perfect that gun is get Veral Smiths book,

JACKETED PERFORMANCE WITH CAST BULLETS
By Veral Smith

http://www.lbtmoulds.com/books.shtml






Veral goes through the process of setting a revolver up for cast bullets in the book. I followed his advice and topped off the process by fire lapping the chambers and barrel and after I did they became real tack drivers.
Basically, when all the tolerances are set then you take some sized but not lubed lead bullets and roll them in grinding compound so it is impregnated in the surface then load them with just enough powder to get the bullet through the barrel. I used 2gns of unique for a 155 gn WFN bullet in the 357 and it worked perfectly and I believe it was 3gns of unique for the 250 gn WFN. I ran two cylinders full of the lapping bullets through each gun. It's all pretty time consuming but worth it IMHO. I have one revolver with a .007" gap and it shoots fine but I don't think I would want to go any more.

[44man]

Veral really knows cast. but when I showed what i was doing on Graybeard outdoors I was booted. I called Veral and he told me he does not know, it was not him, came from higher up. I followed Veral all the way. I have been booted from many so I call it a badge of honor.
Yet nobody has ever shot revolvers like I have and I have to say Veral might be the best.

[youngmman]

Veral really knows cast. but when I showed what i was doing on Graybeard outdoors I was booted. I called Veral and he told me he does not know, it was not him, came from higher up. I followed Veral all the way. I have been booted from many so I call it a badge of honor.
Yet nobody has ever shot revolvers like I have and I have to say Veral might be the best.

I have shot revolvers pretty extensively but probably not as much as you 44man or many others but I do value precision when I do. When I started out casting and setting up my guns for cast bullets I bought LBT molds on the advice of experienced casters who I can't even remember now and talked with Veral, probably to the point of annoyance for him. He guided me through every step with great patience and he has never been wrong in his advice.

If the above sounds like a pitch for Veral Smith and LBT, IT IS! I value what he has done for me very much. He is the best IMHO.

[Whiterabbit]

I shim my Ruger S/A revolvers in order to eliminate as much frame/cylinder gap (not barrel/cylinder) as is reasonable. So far with six revolvers a .002 shim nearly eliminates the end shake. With such a small sample size it my not be accurate, but it seems reasonable that Ruger shoots for around .003 gap between the cylinder nose and the frame.

I do agree with 44man about the slide hammer effect of a loose fit in this area. I don't like the idea of the cylinder getting a running start back as you shoot to slam the ratchet into the rear of the frame. I use a heavy grease on those surfaces to keep things well lubricated. I am nnot sure if this is wholly peace of mind, or if there is any true benefit I will see while I possess these firearms. I say that because it may take more rounds than I can shoot to tell.

At any rate, its what I do, and why. If nothing else it allows me to tinker on my toys while I am not on the range :)

jray,

How do you attach your shims to the cylinders? solder? I assume epoxy would not hold. But the shims tend to be stainless, and on an alloy steel cylinder, solder may not be easy.

[jrayborn]

I use Lubraplate grease. I try to slide the cylinder with the shim held in place with grease. If it slides off I use the wooden handle from a cotton applicator (fancy Q-Tip) to slide it in place as I very gently apply pressure to the base pin.

Hard to explain but not too difficult to do.

Jon

[44man]

I would not worry about the gap if you choose to shim the cylinder. Not one single thing has ever been proven that the gap has anything to do with accuracy.

[Whiterabbit]

barrel cylinder gap has never been a concern of mine from the beginning in this thread. That's what has bothered me so much about the accidental misinterpretation right off the bat.

It's always only been about cylinder to frame fit. Or was supposed to be that, totally independent from barrel cylinder gap (which was to be dealt with later).

It kills me that so much potential learning in this thread was lost because of mistaken connection to barrel cylinder gap. And I can't just abandon this thread and make a new one, there would be too many links to this thread in any new one. It's a shame.

[dubber123]

Well, my suggestion would be to shoot for .001 to .002". I bet that leaves enough for expansion, and is still as close to dead tight as you can get. How did I come up with this number? I guessed. As tight as you can get it and have it function 100% through your most grueling shooting session would be a better answer. Unless you got a super sloppy Ruger, just lubing it well and frequently will keep it in fine shape for longer than most of us will live.

[44man]

Well, my suggestion would be to shoot for .001 to .002". I bet that leaves enough for expansion, and is still as close to dead tight as you can get. How did I come up with this number? I guessed. As tight as you can get it and have it function 100% through your most grueling shooting session would be a better answer. Unless you got a super sloppy Ruger, just lubing it well and frequently will keep it in fine shape for longer than most of us will live.
Yes, never, ever, ever shoot a perfectly clean, dry gun. Even oil if not the best. Why do they use grease in wheel bearings and not some thin oil? Pressure, heat and a cushion to pressure. You need a lube that hangs on the metal. There should always be a film between metals.
The worst spot is at the gap that will blow lube away. It can remove the lube at the cylinder bushing.

[bhn22]

barrel cylinder gap has never been a concern of mine from the beginning in this thread. That's what has bothered me so much about the accidental misinterpretation right off the bat.

It's always only been about cylinder to frame fit. Or was supposed to be that, totally independent from barrel cylinder gap (which was to be dealt with later).

It kills me that so much potential learning in this thread was lost because of mistaken connection to barrel cylinder gap. And I can't just abandon this thread and make a new one, there would be too many links to this thread in any new one. It's a shame.

My apologies for trashing your thread.