000 Buck

[GRUMPA]

Going through my closet and found a bag with some Winchester 3" shells with 000B on them. Since I have the mould for 000 Buck I figured I would load some up. Now either my google-foo is off or someone is really keeping the data under wraps but I just can't find the data.

Anyone load these? If so care to share the recipe?

[bangerjim]

When you get it, let me know! I too wish to fill some 12g hulls with 000 I cast!

banger

[labdwakin]

I think I have some 3" hulls I'd part with pretty cheaply if someone here needed them.

[6pt-sika]

I've loaded 000 for my 2 7/8" 10 gauge . It hammers deer to say the least .

[lakeparkv8]

I would have thought you could load them buy weight measure like regular child lead shot. Is that not the case?

[GRUMPA]

Chilled shot being smaller and denser than the larger .360 shot things have a habit of changing.

[woody1]

I suspect turbo will weigh in here soon. For now, just load weight for weight and you'll pretty much be fine. You may have to change to a shorter wad to get up to weight. 000 loads 2 per row. Here's a link that may help you.
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=123819
Regards, Woody

[Lever-man]

Ballistic Products has a buckshot reloading manual.
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Buckshot-Loading-Manual-4th-ed/productinfo/00MBUCK/

[Cerberus62]

I concur with loading by weight, in a wad that will accommodate the load.

My handy chart says one pellet 000 Buck weighs 69.5 grains. Here are the counts in rough ounce equivalents:

6 - 1oz
7 - 1 1/8
8 - 1 3/8
9 - 1 1/2
10 - 1 5/8
11-1 7/8
12 - 2

The easiest way to build these is with stacked cards. That's most likely the way the Winchesters came from the factory anyway. I you want to use a plastic wad the Winchester WAA12-R or its Claybuster clone CB1138-12 is a good choice.

[GRUMPA]

Well........ I've been looking at this a little closer with the help of a member. What I want to try is removing the petals from the wad so I pretty much only have the piston. I can't put 2 of the 000 side by side using the wad with the petals, it's more like stacking when the petals are on the wad. I weighed my 000 buck and using 10 I come up with a weight of just around 700gr which is just shy of 1 3/8oz.

I'm definitely going to be using some sort of buffer, which will increase the weight a little, by how much I don't know. From what I read on the net, which is rather limited by the way, it's best to use a buffer to tighten up the pattern. If you don't use a buffer folks talk about some rather wild patterns which is something I want to avoid.

Thing is I have to give it some thought as to what kind of buffer I want to use. I've read some folks use C.O.W. and some have used walnut media to the commercially available buffer. All seem to work OK but exactly how much weight it adds to the load is something I'll need to be aware of.

I've never in my life removed the pedals from a wad, but in this case in order to get the buck to fit side by side there's no other way around it.

That member that's helping me out has that BPI book and seems that 000 info is rather limited in 1 form or another. But it gave me powder ideas to work with provided a person keeps in mind the weight. I have the Lyman shot load book, but it's the 3rd edition with the older data, I just have to use the info from different sources and give it a try.

[flounderman]

You don't need the petals. 8 or 10 000 is all you need and with enough powder, you can reach deer a long ways away. You don't need to measure or weigh, just count.

[jmort]

Load them on a gas seal with a Teflon wrap. They do not work in a wad. If you don't have/want to use a wrap, it will still work fine. I use a seal, hard card and a Teflon wrap. Removing the petals on a wad will work just fine.

[Hogtamer]

The buffer can be a problem, as in excessive pressure. A better solution I believe is a good gas seal, a felt wad immediately under the pellets, and hard cast pellets. I have loaded 0000 (.375) effectively, 6 in a 2 3/4" straight hull. At least 1, sometimes 2 pellets in a 10" circle @ 50 yds out of full choke. More pellets = more weight = greater recoil = greater setback and deformation of pellets. The number of pellets in the hull is secondary to the number of pellets actually on target, and it has been my experience with scores of loads with various size pellets that fewer and faster = better pattern with minimal deformation. YMMV Good luck and keep us posted.

[GRUMPA]

You don't need the petals. 8 or 10 000 is all you need and with enough powder, you can reach deer a long ways away. You don't need to measure or weigh, just count.

I know about the counting part, the part about the weight I'm referring to the combined weight of the 10 pellets AND buffer.


The buffer can be a problem, as in excessive pressure. A better solution I believe is a good gas seal, a felt wad immediately under the pellets, and hard cast pellets. I have loaded 0000 (.375) effectively, 6 in a 2 3/4" straight hull. At least 1, sometimes 2 pellets in a 10" circle @ 50 yds out of full choke. More pellets = more weight = greater recoil = greater setback and deformation of pellets. The number of pellets in the hull is secondary to the number of pellets actually on target, and it has been my experience with scores of loads with various size pellets that fewer and faster = better pattern with minimal deformation. YMMV Good luck and keep us posted.

The buffer I plan on using to just fill up the open areas in the shot column and that's it. I need to work with what I have and shot cups is it, I don't have felt wads or anything like that unless I order them and that wont happen anytime soon.

[BAGTIC]

If you are casting your own shot heat treat them to increase hardness. You might be surprised to find that buffer is not needed for good patterns. The main benefit of buffer is to cushion the shot so the setback experienced by rapid acceleration does not deform the shot. Use a shot hard enough to not get squashed on launch and many of the patterning problems may disappear. It has worked for me.

[cpileri]

My recommendation would be to use the teflon wrap and buffer, and to find a load with published PSI data w your wad/hull/primer and use the poweder charge for the next higher shot weight as yoru starting charge. i..e if you use 6x000B=1oz, use 1.25oz load data powder charge.

So for your 10 pellet load, use 1.5oz powder charge data and use the starting charge.

Figure the unknown of the teflon wrap, plus the unknown for the buffer (though Tom Rosters books generally say that the PSB buffer from PR adds 1000psi to a load- just as a rough guesstimate); and you will want to stay well under the max PSI for your starting loads.
What hull, wad, primer will you be using?

[cpileri]

also, do you need a starter pack of felt wads, PSB buffer, and teflon wraps? how many shells worth?

teflon wraps are kind of expensive, but the other stuff isnt really.

If you just need a few...

C-

[GRUMPA]

Maybe later today I'll get my camera out and post some pictures. What I did was cut the wad to the point all there is left of it is the piston. I loaded a few up and found out that when I add the buffer it will elevate the buck shot if I let it ride on my vibratory tumbler to shake down the buffer for to long, and I'm using corn cob media for that.

When I crimped it...it was like I had to much in the Hull since it didn't crimp all that well. Even at that I figured "What the Heck" and fired it in my H&R. What happened was the Hull split in half or just slightly more leaving the metal head part with just a bit of plastic still remaining.

Didn't know if it was due to the simple fact I'm trying to use 17yr + old Hulls or what.

[cpileri]

Yes, if you vibrate the buffer too long it will seperate and raise the shot.
You want to fill the interstices between the balls and thats it. One way to do that is:
1. load the shot, pour in some buffer
2. take a dowel and put it in the hull to hold down the shot
3. vibrate while applying pressure to the dowel, nto letting the shot raise up
4. if all the buffer disappears, add some more and repeat the vibration/hold down technique until the buffer comes up to the level of the shot column.

[cpileri]

as to the hulls ripping apart, well; it coudl be their age.

How did the brass base and primers look? any signs of pressure? ejector marks?

[GRUMPA]

Here's a couple of pictures, the first 1 is the extractor bulge if you want to call it that. And the other is the primer, didn't really flatten the primer all that much.

146281

146282

[cpileri]

With an ejector mark, it can be a sign of being slightly over pressure; ro could just be soft brass or a really large ejector space for it to flow into.
With such old hulls, its hard to tell.

Did you just remove the petals and maintain the factory charge of powder?

then just add buffer to the balls and (try to) re-crimp?

or did you try some other load data?

C-

[FullTang]

Cut shells! I love those!
Seriously though, I'd be a bit suspicious that the buffer caused increased pressure and increased sidewall friction, thus tearing the hull apart. Those H&R single-shots will show overpressure via sticky extraction and a bulge at the ejector cut-out (in fact, some writers have suggested using them for just this reason---they are one of the few guns that will show obvious "pressure signs"). I'd suggest trying exactly the same load without the buffer; doubt you'll have any problems. Also, in an earlier post, you mentioned trying ground walnut shells as a buffer; that doesn't sound like a good idea to me. Buffered loads need to be made with specific buffers, and I don't think there are any legitimate loads with walnut shell buffer. Maybe some old-time load from 1960's load manuals, back before they had reliable pressure testing, but nothing modern. Buffers have a huge effect on internal ballistics of shotshells.

[GRUMPA]

With an ejector mark, it can be a sign of being slightly over pressure; ro could just be soft brass or a really large ejector space for it to flow into.
With such old hulls, its hard to tell.

Did you just remove the petals and maintain the factory charge of powder?

then just add buffer to the balls and (try to) re-crimp?

or did you try some other load data?

C-

What I did was cut down the wad all the way to the piston part, just a flat......oh say 1/2 thick or so. For the life of me I can't find the piece of paper I wrote down the charge on so I'll need to work it up from scratch again. I know I wanted to use a 10-000 buck load and cutting the wad as much as I did was the only way.

Depending on the powder used will determine the volume, so I remember staying using 20 some grains on my load. I'll put up some pictures of what I used once I get this thing figured out. I may need newer 3" Hulls for this project, I have Win and Rem right now and those aren't new or even close to it. But up here on the ranch it's better to have more fire power than you actually need, and 3" hulls seem to be it. Thing is they're priced right up there with slug loads, and I already do those but want something that spreads out a little since I don't normally have the rifled barrel on the shot gun.

[cpileri]

Also, how was the pattern?

I am interested because i think your load can work; just needs tweaking.

With a reasonable 1.5oz powder charge, a BPGS(*), a teflon wrap (for maximum shot capacity(**)), a hard felt wad, and an overshot card (thin), plus roll crimp;
you will maximize your chance of getting two pellet across, that is layers of 2 pellets. otherwise, it will be a random stacking, and you might get 6 or 7 in your 3-in hulls.

ANother thing you might try if you can get some are the Magtec brass 12ga hulls, as they are so big inside as to need 10ga and 11ga wads to seal them interiorly: maximum space to get 2 pellets per layer in those. Something i have always wanted to try actually. They are just harder to seal up and develop good burn pressures with.

Now if you absolutely cannot get new components, and have to salvage: then you can keep doing what you are doing cutting the petals off the wad to use just the base. the pattern may be a little wider without the wrap but if its acceptable to you then no big deal as that is what counts. Just watch the pressures: you might remove a pellet or 2 from the load if adding buffer to a, presumably near-max, factory load.



(*): http://www.ballisticproducts.com/BPGS-12ga-gas-seal-250_bag/productinfo/3221200/
(**): http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Teflon-Wraps-10-to-12ga-50_pak/productinfo/TEFLON/

[bstone5]

I cut the wad removing everything except the bottom wad part.

To keep lead out of the barrel, the shot is coated with Hi-Tech coating , the same as used on cast bullets.

After casting the shot is rolled in a rock tumbler to make the shot a little more round.

The shot is cast to be hard with out water dropping.

The teflon wrap will keep a smaller group, most of the time the Teflon wrap is not used too cheap.

So many are made, no buffer is used.

The 000 only requires one ball to hit if distance is not too long.

Shoot most out of a H&R single shot.

Shot a coyote up close chasing a fawn, one ball did him in.

I use old wads also some are over 20 years old, never had one come apart.

Had some 10 gauge come apart with #7 shot, way too much shot in the case for the amount of powder. Shooting doves flying high after others had already shot at them. Gave up that idea.

[pls1911]

At the risk of being flamed, here's a repeat of a post elsewhere here.. homecast 00 buck ( yes with little nibs from cut offs), EZ as can be, and I'd not want to be on the recieving end.

Ok, so photos are rotated 90 degrees off, but you get the picture.
Loading tonight, shooting in the morning.

Two pellets x 4 high stack is perfect for WAA12 wads in AA hulls.
Sweet fit, all 8 pellets of 00 buck fit well in the hull, and very nice TIGHT crimp.
weight is right at 1 oz. (438grains)
19.5 grains green dot should provide about 1250 fps.
Shot from a Cyl Bore and IC barrels at 15 and 25 feet (bed room & hall way distance) and results posted below.

8 pellets of 00 is right at 440 graines... about 1 oz.... pushed at 1250 fps , muzzle energy isn't far behind a middlin' 45-70...
9 pellets at 1400 are just punishing on the gun and shooter, and can't see that the pain is worth the gain.
The pellets stack neatly 90 degrees to the next layer, the length is right and the crimp is nice and tight http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/misc/paperclip.png http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30078&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1403144440 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30078&d=1299193416)

Buckshot performance
The attached photo are the results of a patterning session this afternoon with soft cast OO buck loaded as described in the above texts; about 5 inches at 25 feet through a Remington 870 , IC choke.
Several rounds were very consistent... so worries about "perfectly round" or very hard buckshot are ill founded.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/misc/paperclip.png Attached Thumbnails http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30120&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1403144440 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30120&d=1299296024)

[nicodiesel]

i use claybuster cb1138-12 wads and cut the petals off. no buffer. load 10 in layers of 2