Negative results with Lee measure and Red Dot Powder

[Dale53]

I am on a long term project to reduce the number of partially filled powder cans. I plan to do this by shooting them up (well, duh-h-h:roll:).

As a for instance, I used to shoot a lot of shotgun. I don't anymore, so I have a partial caddy of Red Dot. Now, a lot of shooters use Red Dot in situations where Bullseye is more typical. So, I thought that I would load up some .32 S&W Longs ( I shoot LOTS of .32's) with Red Dot. The manuals all give lots of recipes for this purpose, so everything looks "well and good". I load on a Dillon 550B but on my lighter loads, in some calibers, I use the Lee Pro Auto Disk. I like and use a couple of these measures. So, I pulled out my "light load disk" and set up to load. The intended charge was about 2.1 grs (don't remember the exact charge) of Red Dot under a 99 gr DEWC cast bullet. When trying to monitor the powder charge, I discovered that the measure was dropping widely varying powder charges. It would drop one at the intended target (2.1) then maybe the next two would be .8 or .9. I ran many through and the variation kept up. I dismantled the powder measure, made sure it was clean and the same thing continued. Obviously, the powder was bridging in the rather small opening in the powder measure. So, I have to say that Red Dot in these small charges, IN THIS MEASURE, was unusable. I changed powders to 231 (which requires a slightly larger charge) and it worked perfectly over many powder charges.

I had run onto this same problem years ago with 700X in a number of powder measures as had a couple of friends of mine (including a local commercial loader). In fact, I quit using 700x in small pistol charges because of this.

So, I guess the moral of this story is to be VERY careful of what powder you use when you are using small charges (small charges require small charge holes which increase the likelihood of the possibility of bridging). I have never had any problem with Bullseye nor 231 bridging. I guess I will see that small charges will be one of these powders.

I'll use the Red Dot in larger calibers that require larger charges (and allow larger charge holes).

A person must ALWAYS stay alert when reloading - those light loads could have lodged a bullet in the barrel if a shooter was not attentive with disastrous results when the next shot was fired. I was fortunate that I discovered this before loading any rounds.

Dale53

[DrJay1st]

Very interesting information Dale. Is it possible that powder could bridge above the disk? Since the hole is so small, could the powder simply not fall? or not fall completely into the whole from above? I have seen somewhere a baffle that goes in some powder measures. I thought that it might be a good idea...wouldn't the baffle keep the powder under it a little looser...wouldn't bridging be helped by not have the weight of the powder above packing/bridging? Just something that has been whirling around in my brain for a few days and your post gave me an opportunity to broach it. Are those baffles available for lee products?

Jerry

[HABCAN]

Years ago I encountered the 'bridging' problem with the flake powders, Unique, 700X, and Red Dot. I had the little aluminum baffles in my Lyman #55's, so cut business cards to suit and made baffles for the LEE's. They're still in there, and they still work, BUT, that said, I have gone over almost exclusively to ball powders with great satisfaction.

[454PB]

I've had the same problems with many various powder measures using Red Dot, Green Dot, Unique, and Herco.

[rbstern]

Yep, been there, done that. For the really light wadcutter loads, or small cartridges, the smaller grained powders load much more consistently. I find I like AA#2 best for that role.

Clays, which has a consistency very similar to Red Dot, is my main pistol powder, and as a rule, I don't load under 3.5 grains (.53 CC cavity hole) due to charge inconsistency below that volume.

[Dale53]

Drjay1st and others;
Frankly, I DO believe that it was bridging above the disk (that hole is quite small). At any rate, my solution is as rbstern mentions, just don't load those "fluffy flake" powders through small holes. I'll continue to use them but ONLY with larger charges where bridging won't occur (in measures with large holes).

Every time we think we have a handle on things, something rears it's ugly head to show us how mortal we are:mrgreen:. I am quite partial to ball powders myself but would like to work my way through the partial cans of flake powders that I have on hand.

Dale53

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Dale53,

I'm not sure if you have one or not, but I've had fairly good luck with tough to meter powders using an RCBS Uniflow in place of my Pro Auto Disk on a Lee Classic turret press. I adapt it using a Hornady case activated powder drop, but one can also use the RCBS version of the case activated powder drop.

The Uniflow is one I picked up used and so far, it's done me pretty well when metering extruded powder such as 4895. I first learned how effective the Hornady LnL powder measure was with extruded powders, then adapted the RCBS Uniflow to the Lee Classic Turret with the Hornady CAPD because the Uniflow is smaller and balances much better on the small Lee rotating turret.

Uniflows are pretty common on the used market and the CAPD is about 40 bucks or so. I'm betting if one picked up both large and smaller cylinders, one could probably dispense the Green Dot with it. Between the Uniflow, my LnL powder measure and the Pro Auto Disk measures, I haven't ran into anything I can't dispense yet.

Just a thought to try, since a lot of folks already have a Uniflow from their single stage days.

Regards,

Dave

[jonk]

I too have had this happen with Lee disc measures and light charges of flake powders. Bullseye doesn't do it nearly as much, nor do any of the other less-flakey powders.

OTOH, for larger loads (.45, .357, etc) it becomes a non issue.

[Lloyd Smale]

it happens even with the dillon measure. redot just doesnt meter well. Good thing is it seems to shoot well even if its off a little but i like to use it in cases that im useing at least 6 grains so a swing of a half a grain isnt going to make anything unsafe.

[redbear705]

The Bridging topic has been covered here in this forum before.

Using an aquarium air pump attached to the hopper will vibrate the measure and let the powder fall. If using a turret press use a small battery powered vibrator.

I believe somewhere on this board aresome photos of one guys solution to the problem.

Sorry dont have time to search it out though.

JR

[DrJay1st]

This thread causes me to ask: What are your thoughts/experiences on powder baffles? Are they appropriate? Always? Any downside? Which powder throwers are they available for? If one has to make one from scratch, which materials won't causes static electricity?
Why do I make everything so complicated??????????????
Jerry

[smokemjoe]

It happened to me a few week ago. Win. 540 undermined in the Lee 1000, Was just enought to get the bullet pass the chamber. Next one okey, Ringed barrel now. Was indoor shooting and alot of noise around and recoil was the same. This is may Sten gun- semi auto rifle. Next I had loaded up 45 AR,45 Colt and 45 ACP, I watched ever load, Had 50 bad loadings with the Win. 540 powder, I ran 200 rds. threw a Redding and RCBS measure and no trouble, Ever one same wt. Story comming out in the Fouling Shot on this soon. Joe

[Dale53]

I am NOT slamming the Lee Auto Disk Pro powder measure. They are excellent measures. However, when doing VERY light powder charges, I"ll stick to ball powders (in my case the flattened ball powder Win 231 as it measures so well).

This is just ANOTHER thing that we will have to pay attention to.

Baffles:
Baffles are good if they do NOT cause bridging. I was called in as a "consultant' for a shotgun reloader who was having reloading problems that he could not determine (when shooting his shells would be heavy and light at random). The reloader was about to tear his hair out. He was a careful reloader, followed the rules and incidentally an excellent trap shot. I was able to determine that problem was a combination of using 700-X and a "Jim's Powder Baffle". I could bridge the powder at will in the baffle itself. Because of the design of the MEC reloading tool, there was NO chance of a heavier than normal charge but the loader threw a "too light" charge frequently because of the Powder Baffle. The solution in his case, was to just remove the "Jim's Powder Baffle" and run the loader without it. That particular powder baffle would work just fine with other powders, but NOT 700X. As a result of this investigation, I looked at 700X under high magnification - the edges of the powder flakes were just like a "lace doily" like Grandma put on her end tables. I believe that the powder flake edges locked together when confined in a small opening.

I have also fielded complaints about 700X when used in small pistol charges on Progressive and Automatic Presses (from commercial loaders). The proper solution for them was to just use another powder.

As they used to say at the end of that old TV Cop show, "Watch yourself, men. Be Safe!" (or words to that effect).

Dale53

[Bret4207]

Man, this is the one thing keeping me from a progressive. Well, there's the money issue too, but this is the biggy.

[redbear705]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=22193&highlight=aquarium+pump 07-22-2007, 09:25 PM #9
redbear705

Some reading material....JR

And A photo of a fellow members solution to bridging problems... ckeck out what is attached to the powder measure hoppers.
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/redbear705x/Powdervibratorsjpg.jpg
This setup will give incredibly consitant powder throws.

JR

[be603]

re: Green Dot reference above

Just finished first effort with a new (to me) Hornady LnL-AP case activated measure using Green dot. I have the micrometer adjust pistol rotor installed. No experience w/ Red Dot in that measure.

Load was 2.8 grains of GD with a 148 gr DEWC in 38 Spl. Initially was erratic but disasssembled, cleaned thoroughly to remove residual grease in the new measure. From that point on it was boring-ly consistent in throwing the Green Dot.

During the course of loading ~700 rounds I observed less than 0.01 grain total variation on the many samples I weighed.

Just set up this week for 45 colt load using Unique. So far, same thing -- boring consistency on all my test throws.

[Lloyd Smale]

i wonder if that setup left running all the time wouldnt tend to compact the powder after a while and cause even more trouble. What would be slick is if a guy made a contact switch that conected to the powder slide return arm on the measure that would turn it on only when it called for powder in the bar.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=22193&highlight=aquarium+pump 07-22-2007, 09:25 PM #9
redbear705

Some reading material....JR

And A photo of a fellow members solution to bridging problems... ckeck out what is attached to the powder measure hoppers.
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/redbear705x/Powdervibratorsjpg.jpg
This setup will give incredibly consitant powder throws.

JR

[Dale53]

Bret4207;
There is no reason to avoid a progressive press because of this "issue". Just using a powder that works with a particular set up solves that.

I have loaded tens of thousands of rounds (literally) on progressive presses without incident. You do need some mechanical aptitude to reload with a progressive, IMO. But, if you have a bit of mechanical ability, there is no reason (other than economic - been there, done that and have the "T" Shirt[smilie=1:) to avoid joining the "progressive crowd".

We must ALWAYS pay attention when we are reloading whether single stage or progressive. You just need to be a LITTLE more attentive when using a progressive press.

Dale53

[fireflyfather]

Lee manual for this product states that you shouldn't load small charges of flake powders with this device. I am curious about their perfect powder measure, however. Will start new threat for that.

[Dale53]

Well, I guess Lee knows what he is talking about (duh-h-h[smilie=1:).

Well, I have had those measures for so long that obviously I had forgotten what the manual said - and the manual is correct, that is for sure.

I have not had a problem with Bullseye but that powder meters well.

I have long preferred Win 231 for target and normal pistol and revolver cartridges but needed to use up some other powders. I'll limit the flakes to larger charges.

Dale53

[Dale53]

Here is a follow up on this thread:

Today I set up my #1 Dillon 550B (large pistol primers) for .45 ACP. I wanted target loads so was loading the near 200 gr Saeco #68 bullet ahead of 4.1 grs of Red Dot. I ran several through just working the measure. Measured reliably +or- .1 (one tenth) of a grain. Then I ran the press normally loading ammo and randomly pulled samples. ALL were within the +or- .1. This is excellent performance for any measure. This was the new Dillon Powder measure with the compound lever that mechanically returns the powder slide. This "new" compound lever of Dillon's trips the powder bar for a controlled vibration (it actually slams closed) to insure the cavity is full before dropping the next charge. At first it was a little grating on my nerves but I got used to it. It certainly seems to work reliably with this difficult to measure powder at the 4.1 grain level. This "test" was using the Dillon standard "small" powder bar.

I have read, on here I believe, where some were not happy with the new compound lever on the "bellcrank". Personally, in spite of the "slam" when the bar closes using the new bell crank, the "jarring" of the bar closing seems to be extremely reliable with this hard to measure powder (Red Dot). In other words, the jarring of the powder slide when closing seemed to insure very accurate metering results and I, for one, am quite pleased.

This week I have managed to retire two partially empty caddies of powder (7625 and Red Dot). It's working folks, it's working (getting rid of my "odd cans" of powders. Only 4,961 to go yet [just kiddin' folks] - it's not QUITE that many[smilie=1:.

Dale53