Bad RCBS dies... really!

[wallenba]

I obtained a US Krag recently and began buying what I needed to reload cast boolits for it. I ordered an RCBS 2 die set and an identical seater as the one in the set. I did so because I like to set them up permanently with Forster die lock rings so I don't have to adjust them each time. One to seat one to crimp. Neither of them can crimp. I can drop a case into the die until it stops at the case web. It won't come close to the crimp ring. Obviously the die body is too long.

I can use one to seat just fine. I've made some 'dummies' OK (minus crimp of course). I'm debating trying to use my chop saw to shorten one.
I know that RCBS will make good on this, but I don't feel like waiting months and months. I ordered a Lee FCD, but I like roll crimps better.

Basically just venting here and wondering if anyone else has had this problem.:x

[EDG]

You do not have to wait months and months. More like 3 or 4 days.

Where did you get the idea it took months and months?
I had a crooked seater for a 25-06 back about 1976. I mailed the die set with cases and bullets so they could understand why the bullets had so much runout. I could see the seated bullets wobble when rolled across a kitchen table. I got my bullets seated in my cases and a new set of dies back in about 4 days.

[Motor]

I "visit" 3 reloading forums on a regular basis if one thing holds true it is that RCBS has excellent customer service. Call them !!!!

Motor

[wallenba]

You do not have to wait months and months. More like 3 or 4 days.

Where did you get the idea it took months and months?
I had a crooked seater for a 25-06 back about 1976. I mailed the die set with cases and bullets so they could understand why the bullets had so much runout. I could see the seated bullets wobble when rolled across a kitchen table. I got my bullets seated in my cases and a new set of dies back in about 4 days.

Some 30-40 Krag dies are special order on a lot of sites. If I got two bad ones at one place, I'd guess there are a lot of them out there, so I don't want to just ship them back so a warehouseman can pick and send another bad one out. I can't see RCBS expediting making one die if needed. If they have one to ship, good, if they check that one first.
I intend to call them first thing tomorrow. Don't want to send the whole die set back either.

[KnotRight]

Wallenba, I have bought a lot of older dies and some with bent parts. I called RCBS and told them that some of the dies date back to 1977. Without any questions, I had the replacement part with in 5 to 7 days. I even bought a 505 scale off E-bay and had a problem with it. Called RCBS and had whatever replacement parts they had on hand shipped to me in 5 days.

Never have I had any problems with RCBS or Hornady with service issues.

[EDG]

You might double check your case length to be sure it is not a case problem. See if your cases will hit the crimp shoulder when dropped into the die with no shell holder.

If they send you another tell them you have 2 bad ones and send you 2 that have been verified to be good.


Some 30-40 Krag dies are special order on a lot of sites. If I got two bad ones at one place, I'd guess there are a lot of them out there, so I don't want to just ship them back so a warehouseman can pick and send another bad one out. I can't see RCBS expediting making one die if needed. If they have one to ship, good, if they check that one first.
I intend to call them first thing tomorrow. Don't want to send the whole die set back either.

[Char-Gar]

2 thoughts...

1. You don't check such things by dropping a case into the die. You put the case in a shell holder and the die in the press and then you run it up. I would not come to any conclusions until it is done the way it was intended.

2. I don't understand why you would want to crimp cast bullet loads in a Krag rifle. Bullets are not crimped unless used in a tubular magazine and there are no tubular magazine rifles that chamber the 30-40 round.

[EDG]

Perhaps you do not understand the thought process or the manufacturing process.

If the case hits the shoulder in the die with the CASE shoulder then you cannot cut off the die and make it work.
If there is no contact with the case shoulder there is the possibility of cutting off the base of the die.

My interest is
1. Was the die reamed too deep with the correct reamer
2. Or reamed with an incorrect reamer
3. Reamed too deep with a reamer that is incorrectly ground reamer.



2 thoughts...

1. You don't check such things by dropping a case into the die. You put the case in a shell holder and the die in the press and then you run it up. I would not come to any conclusions until it is done the way it was intended.

2. I don't understand why you would want to crimp cast bullet loads in a Krag rifle. Bullets are not crimped unless used in a tubular magazine and there are no tubular magazine rifles that chamber the 30-40 round.

[wallenba]

139194
2 thoughts...

1. You don't check such things by dropping a case into the die. You put the case in a shell holder and the die in the press and then you run it up. I would not come to any conclusions until it is done the way it was intended.

2. I don't understand why you would want to crimp cast bullet loads in a Krag rifle. Bullets are not crimped unless used in a tubular magazine and there are no tubular magazine rifles that chamber the 30-40 round.

Installing into the press, and attempting to crimp, IS, how I found out it is defective.

When it drops into the die body, there is barely enough left showing to get a shell holder on it! Like I said, it comes nowhere near close to the crimp ring at all. Case is stopped from going further into die by unsized portion of the case web.

I called RCBS about an hour ago, no techs were available to take my call. She said they work till about 7:30 PM (their time).
Waiting....

Uncrimped case mouth 'hangs up' when cycling the bolt. Yes, I can hand feed. But not the issue. Issue still is, die is not right.

[bhn22]

Not all seating dies are designed to crimp. What you're seeing as a crimp ring could simply be the end of the finish machined area of the seating die. It's entirely possible that your #2 dies are simply plain bullet seating dies.

[wallenba]

You might double check your case length to be sure it is not a case problem. See if your cases will hit the crimp shoulder when dropped into the die with no shell holder.

If they send you another tell them you have 2 bad ones and send you 2 that have been verified to be good.

These are once fired Remington cases. They are .002" under saami spec OAL. Not nearly enough to matter, as all dies should have enough adjustability in them for MUCH more variation than that. I suspect that internally the die is correct, but that the die was made from die body blank that was just too long. I think 1/2" off the bottom, and this die would function normally.

[wallenba]

Not all seating dies are designed to crimp. What you're seeing as a crimp ring could simply be the end of the finish machined area of the seating die. It's entirely possible that your #2 dies are simply plain bullet seating dies.

I thought of that, and I re-visited all the web sites that sell this die. All of the product descriptions accompanying the item, inferred that they crimp.

[Char-Gar]

I got out my Redding 30-40 seating die and tried a FL sized case with the neck expanded and belled. I also tried a Winchester factory round and this is what I got. My question to you is, are you trying cases in your die that have been neck expanded and belled?

Left pic is Winchester factory round in the die. Next pic to the right is the sized, neck expanded and belled R-P case in the die. The right hand pic is the die, loaded round and case.

Loaded rounds seated in this die will feed through my 4 Krag rifles as slick as snot on a glass door knob and they are not crimped. The seating die will iron out most of the bell. If this die has a crimp ring, which I doubt, the case mouth won't reach it.

Bottom line is I don't think your dies are defective.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have not heard or seen any basic RCBS seating dies that do not crimp. In fact I usually end up buying an extra seating die for the exact same reason you did.

Do both of your seating dies not crimp the case? if so, both need to go back.

Ran into this problem with Lee Dies in .303 Brit. They no longer crimp, however there is a distinct difference in the outside of the old and new dies so you can tell which ones don't and which ones do.

I ended up buying a used set of RCBS .303 dies and use the seating die for Roll Crimping my Cast Boolits. I use a Lee FCD for Crimping Jacketed Bullets with Cannelures.

Just call RCBS,,, they will fix it.

Randy

[wallenba]

Char-Gar, the case in the pic is a FL sized case, no boolit. My die body is 3.70" long. How long is yours? All I can tell you, is that I can thread the die all the way down over a case till it touches the shell holder, and the neck NEVER makes contact with any part of the inside of the die.

The possibility of no crimp ring in the die is the first question I'm going to put forward to the tech. If that is the case, I'll need to work something else out. To get my Accurate mold boolit seated I do use an 'm' die. It still goes all the way in (with a slight bit of feel of wall contact), but when extracted is not even ironed out much. All the ads say it crimps.

The FL'd case feels nothing.

[scb]

I know this won't fix your problem but, if you are looking for a seating die I'd suggest you try a Vickerman. http://vickermandies.com/html/products.html
You can seat all your 30 cal. cartridges with one die(not just the Krag). No more balancing the bullet/boolit on the case mouth. Raise the case in the shell holder, drop the bullet in the window and seat. Best thing since sliced bread IMHO. You can swap out the guts to a different caliber but I've found complete dies on ebay cheaper than what you can buy the guts for. That and you get the added accuracy of inline seating.

[wallenba]

I know this won't fix your problem but, if you are looking for a seating die I'd suggest you try a Vickerman. http://vickermandies.com/html/products.html
You can seat all your 30 cal. cartridges with one die(not just the Krag). No more balancing the bullet/boolit on the case mouth. Raise the case in the shell holder, drop the bullet in the window and seat. Best thing since sliced bread IMHO. You can swap out the guts to a different caliber but I've found complete dies on ebay cheaper than what you can buy the guts for. That and you get the added accuracy of inline seating.

Very clever tool that one! I like it.

[Legion489]

Well I always contact the company first before posting that I had a problem, but that's me. If they refuse to fix the problem or just tell me I was stupid and bought Le... er, a lesser brand of reloading equipment and got what deserved (Yes, Richard L. did just that) then I figure I should buy a better brand of equipment.

I would be highly surprised if RCBS does not fix it or have a good reason why it is doing this. I would like to hear how this comes out. Of course any product can have a bad one slip by or any maker can turn out something that doesn't measure up (I have a wall of reloading gear and several guns that don't), it is what the company does when they do that matters to me. RCBS always did what is right. Some low end junk makers didn't.

[wallenba]

RCBS has always come through for me. No doubt they will here too. Once when my Pro-melt began dripping at a fearsome rate, I called to inquire how to deal with it. A week later I had a new pot liner and metering rod in the mail. No charge. The little mousetrap spring on my bench mounted priming tool broke. I could not make or find one that worked well. They sent a new one as well as a new handle cover. No charge.

[W.R.Buchanan]

So we're all good now? [smilie=2:

Randy

[Char-Gar]

Char-Gar, the case in the pic is a FL sized case, no boolit. My die body is 3.70" long. How long is yours? All I can tell you, is that I can thread the die all the way down over a case till it touches the shell holder, and the neck NEVER makes contact with any part of the inside of the die.

The possibility of no crimp ring in the die is the first question I'm going to put forward to the tech. If that is the case, I'll need to work something else out. To get my Accurate mold boolit seated I do use an 'm' die. It still goes all the way in (with a slight bit of feel of wall contact), but when extracted is not even ironed out much. All the ads say it crimps.

The FL'd case feels nothing.

The length of the Redding die body is 3.5". But I really don't think that matters as a reamer is run into the die to form the interior dimensions. A little extra length should mean nothing, but more travel for the seating stem.

As before, a full length sized case run into this die touches nothing either.

[wallenba]

Just got off the phone with an RCBS tech. I asked if it was supposed to crimp or not. He kind of hemmed and hawed and agreed that it should after looking at the drawings. Something tells me he was unsure. He left me on hold a good while, while he, "checked something out". Still don't know what that was about. He insists that I try it in an RCBS press first before returning it for inspection. I still can't figure out what difference that would make when the die bottoms on the shell holder. The shell holder on my Forster Co-Ax is effectively the same as a conventional one, and would permit full entry into any die.
So... I will obediently pull out my old RCBS JR., go through the motions so I can say I did, and send it in. Also, their drawing shows the OAL of the die body as 3.70", so the problem, if any, would be internal.

Since one of them can be used as a seater, I'll send just the other back. A Lee FCD arrives tomorrow, so I can move forward for now at least. I am beginning to suspect, that Like Char-Gar's Redding, it's not supposed to crimp, for whatever reason. Likelihood of that being my unwillingness to accept that RCBS made a mistake. That's not been my experience with any of their stuff.

[wallenba]

So we're all good now? [smilie=2:

Randy

Well... don't have any definitive answers on the seater die, but I will soon be able to get them crimped. A lee FCD is coming.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have had a couple of instances of dealing with less than knowledgeable RCBS Customer Service people.

When things get technical, you kind of want to talk to someone a little further up the food chain.

I would send both of those seating dies back, not just one. As long as both of them don't crimp they aren't right and that's a problem.

Likewise if there was a production screw up, management needs to know about it so they can correct it.

These aren't like Lee Dies because RCBS doesn't sell a Factory Crimp Die. RCBS dies in two die sets must be able to crimp the bullet in place. I know some don't do it, but Every Factory Round made is crimped. You need to be the one making the decision not a faulty die.

Also to think ANY of these outfits never makes a mistake is dumb. They all do, and their willingness to fix those mistakes is what separates one from another.

I own a machine shop,,,, These dies are made in a machine shop which is probably a lot bigger than mine. To think that everyone who works at that shop is a master class machinist is just plain naïve. You probably have about 3-5 really good workers and a bunch of people who just show up every day and put in time loading and unloading CNC lathes. As far as they get into the technical aspect of machining is pushing the green button to start the cycle. Some guys actually get to do a cursory inspection on the product so see if anything is changing during the run. In which case they would call a supervisor to make adjustments to the tooling.

Most of the guys who are running CNC machines today in CA were educated in the 1990's and early 2000's. they couldn't add, subtract, multiply or divide without a calculator if their lives depended on it. I have interviewed literally hundreds, and I have never had one young guy who could even make it to Long Division, let alone do it. The best one I ever saw could do simple multiplication. He did not know his multiplication tables because he was never taught them. Most of us here learned them in the 3rd grade!

Just keep after them but like I said earlier, send both of those dies back, don't keep one, cuz if you do you will invariably need it to crimp someday and it won't do it.

Randy