Martini Barrels [Archive]

Molly

03-16-2008, 06:05 PM

Hi Fellows,

I've got three barrels - all used - and one semi-new for the Francotte Cadet Martini available for swap. Guarantee is 30 days, return (of swap) if you don't like what you get, for any reason whatsoever. Check me out here on the Cast Boolits forum if you aren't familiar with me or my reputation. (I go by 'Molly'.)

Rifling appears excellent on all three used barrels. Barrels 1&2 are both threaded and cut for the extractor. (So are 3 & 4 for that matter! (BG)) All should be fine shooters.

1. Chambered for .22 Jet Imp.
2. Chambered for .219 Zipper.
3. Original 310 barrel, with excellent original rifling. Chambered for a 32-20 case with a neck enlarged just enough to use proper diameter bullet for the bore.

4. I also have an original 310 barrel that has a 0.308" liner. The liner is new (shot TWICE!), but the jerk 'gunsmith' I entrusted the work to tried to bore a .32 S&W Long chamber instead of reaming it. The boring bar grabbed and took a chunk out of the wall. I tried to clean it up with a 32-20 reamer, but the chunk / hole is too big. Would be great for any larger 30 cal round like the 30/357, maybe even 30-30.

(I might consider in swap: a 7/8x14 threaded press (I've got two stepsons who are getting into reloading.) Would also like a few hundred .44 Spl cases, a 32-20 rifle* (Yes, I'll toss in some boot when/if it seems appropriate)), old .22 / .32 / .38 / .44 revolvers* (broken or working, solid frame or breaktop) (Yeah, I know, but I've got an addiction problem...) or whatever.)

*All pertinent laws followed!

Send me a PM if interested. Let's talk about it.

God Bless

Molly

Morgan Astorbilt

03-16-2008, 08:50 PM

Molly,
Don't need a barrel, but am looking for an action. I've got a Shilen target grade blank in 9mm.-16, and am thinking of chambering it in .38 S&W, for schuetzen. A .310 cadet action would be fine.

Your mention of the Francotte Martini, reminded me of one a friend had many years ago. It was set up for rimless cases, with a retracting ejector, and had a swivel joint with calibrations between the action body and the tangs, allowing you to vary the drop of the stock. Did everything I could to get him to part with it, to no avail. Ever seen one like that?
Morgan

Molly

03-16-2008, 11:31 PM

Hi Morgan,
> Don't need a barrel, but am looking for an action. I've got a Shilen target grade blank in 9mm.-16, and am thinking of chambering it in .38 S&W, for schuetzen. A .310 cadet action would be fine.

That sounds like a fun combination. I want my next one in .32 Long for squirrels. I don't THINK I an help you though: I have several actions, but they're all spoken for (by me). However, I DO have a friend who has been threatening (for several years) to put the Francotte Cadet action back into commercial production. He has the equipment to do it, but somehow doesn't quite get around to it. You might look at his web site, and do some sweet talking: Highland Technologies, in Mt. Orab, Ohio. I do know of another fellow who has made one (maybe two) out of stainless, but he is MOST emphatic that they're not for sale. (Or I'd have one!)

> Your mention of the Francotte Martini, reminded me of one a friend had many years ago. It was set up for rimless cases, with a retracting ejector, and had a swivel joint with calibrations between the action body and the tangs, allowing you to vary the drop of the stock. Did everything I could to get him to part with it, to no avail. Ever seen one like that?

No, but I'd suspect it might have been a 'try gun' from some English gunmaker. I would be interested in details of the extractor, if you can put it into words - or photos.

The only practical rimless case extractor I know of is sold by Bob Snapp. He specializes in Cadet Conversions, and is probably one of the best gunsmiths in America, if you can get him to take your job. I believe he has a number of actions and barrelled actions for sale. At least, he did as of last October. His phone is 989-386-9226, if you are interested.

BTW, did you know there is / was a full size Francotte Martini? I forget their official name, but they were made for the Orange Free State. I have some photo's around if you want.

Regards,
Molly

Wicky

03-16-2008, 11:50 PM

Morgan,
The rimless ectractors are used in Oz for martini conversions. I have a mate who has one in 223 - all mine are rimmed. His seems to work well.
Graham Spraggon (41 Boyce St, Ryde, NSW 2112 Phone : 9888 2973) may have some. Not sure of cost though.
You could try Jemtrek Enterprises, PO Box 419, Gulgong, NSW 2852, Phone : 6374 1474 as well - they have helped me with some obscure stuff before.

Morgan Astorbilt

03-17-2008, 08:04 AM

Molly, The action I spoke of was marked Francotte, and if memory serves, was mfg. by them in Italy. I was surprized at the time, only having been familiar with Francotte shotguns. I remember that the ejector was at 9:00, and moved left to accomodate rimless cartridges. This was a full size action, and I believe it was originally barreled in 8mm mauser, or .30-06. Not a try gun, in my opinion, the joint between the forward and rear section of the action was locked with a flush headed screw, a try gun would have had a knob. I wanted it for schuetzen, to change from bench to offhand. It's been forty years ago, and I don't know what happened to the action, after my friend passed away.
I'll check with Bob Snapp, maybe he has an action he can spare. I do all my own work, before retiring, built many single shot target rifles.

Wicky, Thanks for the tip. I haven't purchased anything from OZ, for many years. I used to have some dealings with the Potters in Brisbane, shoot target occasionally with their son Warren here in the US. I wonder if I can still import from there.

Morgan

Molly

03-17-2008, 03:57 PM

... The rimless ectractors are used in Oz for martini conversions. I have a mate who has one in 223 - all mine are rimmed. His seems to work well. ...

Hi Wicky,

I'm still looking for details on rimless extractors for the Cadet actions - or for that matter, ANY martini action. If my friend ever gets around to putting them back into production, I'll need all the options I can dig up. (So far, all I have is Bob Snap)'s design.) Can you get a look at the interior of your friend's action?

In principle, all one would need to do is build an extractor off of one side of the rimmed version, with a small cam surface to allow it to wedge over and snap into place when the action is closed. But I don't know if anyone has actually done this, and I'd be a bit worried about metal fatigue and a short working life for the extractor.

BTW, what is Oz? (And please don't tell me it's Dorothy's home town. (BG))

Regards,
Molly

Molly

03-17-2008, 04:01 PM

... Not a try gun, in my opinion, the joint between the forward and rear section of the action was locked with a flush headed screw, a try gun would have had a knob. ...

Well, that does put a differrent light on it. You're probably right. Wonder why anyone would make such a variation though ...

There have been some mighty strange Martini variations over the years. Some of my friends send me photos of some of them. And I have an old 'annual edition' of some magazine that discusses Martini's, and it mentions not only lever action versions, but also says that there was a machine gun developed on the basic action. No, it didn't have even a photo, just the statement. And I've never found anything else that mentions it. But I wouldn't go into shock because of most any variation that surfaces. It was a MOST robust design.

Good luck with Bob Snap. If he can't help, you still shouldn't have too much trouble locating an action on one of the gun auction sites.

Molly

Wicky

03-17-2008, 05:27 PM

Molly - Nope not even close to Dorothy's.[smilie=l: Australia is my backyard. I will give him a call and get him to send me a photo. He's not on the internet so don't hold your breath.:lol:

JWCoop

03-20-2008, 09:02 AM

Molly,
I would be intersetd in further discussing those barrels you have for the Martini Cadet. I have sent you a PM.

Thanks, JWCoop

AkMike

03-20-2008, 06:19 PM

Just for an FYI Bob Snapp from Mich. used to make a cute rimless extractor for the cadet. Maybe he still does?

NoDakJak

03-23-2008, 07:33 AM

I have never personally inspected one but the old "Madsen" light machine supposedly used an inverted version of the Martini action. Lacking a bolt it was forced to use a rammer to get the cartridge into the chamber. It was a heavy and complicated design but reliable and used by various forces throughout the world. Some are still in use today.
Neil

NoDakJak

03-23-2008, 07:45 AM

You are right about there being some interesting Martini variations. I have one with a exposed, center mounted hammer and mounted in a one piece stock. It uses a blitz type trigger (Trigger mounted to the removable triggergaurd). The side rails are only about half tall as on the normal small Martini and the action, although neat and handy must be considered weak. I t is chambered for the 360 #5 Rook cartridge which is basically a black owder version of the 38 S&W. It is believed to have been manufactured in Belgium for the English trade. It is one of the treasures that I managed to bring back from England during my tour of duty there in the mid seventies.
Neil

Molly

03-23-2008, 10:58 PM

You are right about there being some interesting Martini variations. I have one with a exposed, center mounted hammer and mounted in a one piece stock. It uses a blitz type trigger (Trigger mounted to the removable triggergaurd). The side rails are only about half tall as on the normal small Martini and the action, although neat and handy must be considered weak. I t is chambered for the 360 #5 Rook cartridge which is basically a black powder version of the 38 S&W. It is believed to have been manufactured in Belgium for the English trade. It is one of the treasures that I managed to bring back from England during my tour of duty there in the mid seventies.
Neil

Sounds neat. Is it available? Any dates or proof marks? How about a picture or two? Inquiring minds want to know.

Molly

exblaster

03-24-2008, 11:01 AM

Molly if you would like to save the lined Martini barrel you could line the chamber and have a .32 S&W or a .32 mag. John Taylor can do it for you. He turns out excellent work. Hope this will help.

Exblaster

link http://www.johntaylormachine.com/38.0.html

Wicky

03-24-2008, 06:45 PM

Molly

03-25-2008, 07:03 PM

Molly if you would like to save the lined Martini barrel you could line the chamber and have a .32 S&W or a .32 mag. John Taylor can do it for you. He turns out excellent work. Hope this will help.
Exblaster
link http://www.johntaylormachine.com/38.0.html

Hey, now that's a timely tip if I ever saw one. Thanks a lot!
Molly

Molly

03-25-2008, 07:04 PM

Molly, received some photos from my mate with the rimless extractor and they are extremely blurry. I will ring him today and ask to get some clear ones, hopefully will post them soon. Just to let you know I hadn't forgotten! Alan

Thanks Alan,
I don't know why they fascinate me the way they do ... but they do. I'm like a sponge for info about them.

Molly

Wicky

04-01-2008, 02:29 AM

Molly, You may have already seen this site - has some good historic info on it - http://rifleman.org.uk/index-15.html

Molly

04-01-2008, 03:28 AM

Molly, You may have already seen this site - has some good historic info on it - http://rifleman.org.uk/index-15.html

Wicky, that's a great site! Thanks a bunch!

Don't know if you're aware, but I've had a dream of putting the Martini action back into commercial production for some time now. The biggest problem is lack of proper drawings and tolerances. Maybe someone there can help. I've left an inquery anyhow.

Molly

Morgan Astorbilt

04-01-2008, 09:10 AM

Molly, If you're going to resurrect the Martini action, you could do a lot worse than scaling up the action used in the Soviet TOZ Free Pistol. They out shoot the Swiss Hammerli, and have a trigger system as good as the Hammerli, without all the levers. The set trigger on My TOZ can be adjusted so light, that its own weight will set it off, if the muzzle is pointed up. Right now, I've got it set at 15G.
Morgan

NoDakJak

04-01-2008, 10:09 AM

Molly

04-01-2008, 10:32 AM

Molly, If you're going to resurrect the Martini action, you could do a lot worse than scaling up the action used in the Soviet TOZ Free Pistol. ... Morgan

Morgan,

The problem with scaling up an action (And I've looked at that option: I have several actions & rifles.) is that it doesn't give you nominal dimensions or tolerances. You don't know whether the measurement is giving you a minimum or a maximum value. If you're only making ONE rifle, that's no big thing. But if you're looking at a commerical venture, the parts market will be a significant part of your potential sales. And if the parts you make won't fit a majority of the existing actions, you've just lost a lot of revenue. The guy I've been talking with on this isn't willing to forego that. I need actual drawings or AutoCad files before he will move this forward.

Molly

Morgan Astorbilt

04-01-2008, 10:43 AM

Neil, The TOZ take down, is similar to my BSA 12/15. Here's a link to an instruction sheet and parts breakdown. It's what is packed with the gun, and suffers from poor Russian-English translation. These guns haven't been made since the cold war. The site(Target Talk), is hosted by Scott Pilkington, a USA Shooting Olympic Team gunsmith. He'd be the one to answer any questions.

http://www.pilkguns.com/tenp/sptoz35.htm

Molly, can't help you out with the data you need. You'd probably have to contact the VOSTOK company in Russia.

Morgan

Molly

04-01-2008, 11:18 AM

Molly, can't help you out with the data you need. You'd probably have to contact the VOSTOK company in Russia.
Morgan

Thanks for the tip, but it seems that the Biakal Vostok Toz entity was a victim of the collapse of Communism in Russia: There is no web site (that I can find) for them.

Molly

Morgan Astorbilt

04-01-2008, 01:08 PM

Molly, Biakal is doing a land office business here, especially with short barreled shotguns used in cowboy action shooting. They're still making the IZH35M .22 Standard Pistols used in International Pistol. I know, I designed a slide hold open for this gun, which I foolishly neglected to patent, and the fellow who was supposed to see about production (Don Nygord), passed away. His copy of my blueprints was sold with his business, and now others (Including Walther), are making them. I should have spent the five or six thousand and patented it. Check with Scott Pilkington for info about the company.
Morgan

Molly

04-01-2008, 01:32 PM

Hi Morgan,
> Molly, Biakal is doing a land office business here, ...

That's odd, because I can't find a web bage for them. Do you have a source?

> I know, I designed a slide hold open for this gun, which I foolishly neglected to patent, and the fellow who was supposed to see about production (Don Nygord), passed away. His copy of my blueprints was sold with his business, and now others (Including Walther), are making them. I should have spent the five or six thousand and patented it.

Well, if'n it'll make ya feel any better, my own patents have brought me in exactly two dollars over about 30 years, but they brought in many $$$ for my employers.

> Check with Scott Pilkington for info about the company.

I dropped him an enquiry by e-mail. We'll see.

Molly

Morgan Astorbilt

04-01-2008, 03:52 PM

The last I heard, they were being imported by EAA(European American Armory). I believe Stoeger also imports them. I believe the correct spelling is Baikal. I'll check a copy of the Cowboy Chronicle(cowboy action newspaper), and post what I find.
Morgan

Morgan Astorbilt

04-01-2008, 04:09 PM

From what I remember, besides EAA, Stoeger is/was importing them, and Remington is now importing a SxS double made by them under the Remington name. I would also check with them, or post questions on the SASS website(probably your best bet). Good luck.

http://www.sassnet.com/

Morgan

NoDakJak

04-02-2008, 02:42 AM

Morgan, does that TOZ have a disassembly similar to the BSA Martini? I have wondered about converting one of the Martini action pistols to rifle but the sticker price has always been a stopper.
Molly, were you considering maching the reciever or possibly using a casting?
Neil

cuzinbruce

04-02-2008, 03:08 AM

Hi,
Here is a link for Baikal.

http://www.baikalinc.ru/eng/prod/pguns/izh46_46m/

I have a Margolin pistol, called an MCM on their website. A .22 target pistol, I believe about what their Olympic shooters used in the 1950-60's. Nicely made and a good shooter. Very different design philosophy than in US .22 target pistols, especially from that era.

Bruce

Wicky

04-02-2008, 03:14 AM

Molly, finally have the extractor pics - still a little rough but lots better than they were!!!
6928

6929

6930

6931

6932

6933

As many angles as possible. The spring is to tension the extractor, so I'm told.
I hope these are of some assistance.

Molly

04-02-2008, 07:39 AM

...
Molly, were you considering maching the reciever or possibly using a casting?
Neil

Actually, we've looked at forging and casting, but the reality is that my friend has a shop equipped with wire cutting EDM equipment capable of holding very fine tolerances, and providing very nice surface finishes. If and when we get plans, that's probably how it will go.

One interesting sidebar is that we've also considered a 45 or 50 cal barrel with a breechplug 'chambered' for the 209 shotshell primer. This wouldn't take any alteration of the action at all, and would make a very effective muzzle loader that is almost impervious to weather. But again, that's if and when ...

Molly

Molly

04-02-2008, 07:44 AM

Molly

04-02-2008, 07:53 AM

Molly, finally have the extractor pics - still a little rough but lots better than they were!!!

As many angles as possible. The spring is to tension the extractor, so I'm told.
I hope these are of some assistance.

The pics are great Wicky. I have them saved, and thanks. That's such an elegant little design. I love it. I'd tried to do something along the same line, but I didn't have the smarts to use a coil spring. I tried to use the arm of the extactor as my spring. This is much better.

Molly

Molly

04-02-2008, 08:31 AM

Hi, Here is a link for Baikal. ...
http://www.baikalinc.ru/eng/prod/pguns/izh46_46m/ ...Bruce

Hey, that's great! I've dropped them an inquery, asking to purchase finished actions and / or drawings. We'll see what happens.

Molly

Morgan Astorbilt

04-02-2008, 09:05 AM

Molly

04-02-2008, 04:06 PM

Hi Guys,

I may have some good news at last. I just got off the phone with my friend who owns a pretty sophisticated machine shop. He brought me up to date on the project to make new Cadet actions that's been hanging fire for a good while for lack of manufacturing specifications. One of HIS friends operates a similar business (CNC shop) who has seen his business taper off for a while. He stopped by to visit my friend and asked if there was anything on the back burner that he could get into.

My friend mentioned the Cadet project, and showed him a rifle, but commented that we still have no plans or tolerances. The guy said that he didn't care: He would just reproduce the action he had in his hands, and keep tolerances to a minimum. (This was a 12/15 match rifle, with heavy side walls.) My friend and he are hammering out some sort of pardnership for their production and marketing right now.

That's really all the information I have right now. I don't know when or price or whether actions only, or completed rifles.

But I wanted to pass this along, since it's the first really encouraging development on this for a good while.

Regards,
Molly

flinter

04-11-2008, 06:47 PM

Hi , I came up with this design a long time ago and mailed it to enquirers all over via the net , however it has one small fault and that is that the top of the extractor arm will catch on the body of the shell and stop it from clearing the chamber ,not bad but annoying .. After using mine for a time I came up with a cure which is a small screw through the side of the action carrier so that it's rounded end contacts the lower arm of the extractor just about the end of it's travel and pushes the extractor away from the shell and the empties clear the action properly .. If anybody is using this extractor the addition of this screw is a simple job and will cure any problems in this area ..Flinter

Franklin Zeman

03-13-2010, 08:14 AM

Molly, if you still have the .310 barrel, email me. Frank @ franklinzeman@sbcglobal.net

Franklin Zeman

05-01-2010, 07:45 AM

Any of those barrels left at this late date???

Franklin Zeman

06-19-2010, 04:58 PM

Any of these barrels still available ? Please email to Frank at: franklinzeman@sbcglobal.net

joatmon

06-19-2010, 09:36 PM

Send Molly a P M and I bet you'll get an answer.

Martininut

04-06-2012, 04:27 AM

Morgan, does that TOZ feature quick takedown similar similar to the BSA Martini? I am all in favor of ressurecting the Martini action but think that it would be an expensive devil to manufacture. Perhaps it could use an improved trigger simiar to the TOZ. I have made some of my Martini triggers crisp but have never managed to make them particularily light. Neil

G'day mate! I have a Cadet in .22 Hornet which is virtually a hair trigger. I bought the weapon that way and it's brilliant, although lighter than I would normally like. My Cadet in .222 rimmed is also light... around two pounds at most. My others are heavier.

Buzz