Need a bit of Info.

[OverMax]

Hello one & all.
I've been looking around this site & others for a B/P Comparison Chart. Grans = Volume or vice versa which can be either 2 or 3-FFg use. Can anyone direct me to such a Chart in the C/Bs library or has one to post or private message me. Sure would be appreciated. O/M

[rodwha]

There's a little bit of volume loads weighed out that may give you something to go on. However not all volume measures are precise. My 35 grn charge may not drop quite 35 grns or may be dropping 36.8 grns in yours.

http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=6410.0

[mooman76]

Also each powder(brand) will have a different volume per weight and sometimes same powder but different lots can be different. That is one reason why different volume measures very so much. I assume you are not talking volume measure specifically but rather volume like in CCs.

[OverMax]

Almost. But was hoping for higher powder figures. {Those used in conjunction with a long barrel firearm.} Which I failed to mention earlier. Sorry about that Brethren Traditionalist.


I assume you are not talking volume measure specifically but rather volume like in CCs. No sir. Measured in a (marked) sliding B/P Volume scale. Those measure's most of us when measuring out powder charges for our rifles

[rodwha]

Those figures should be linear. If, say, he measured 30 grns weighing 25 grns weight it could be said that 60 grns volume would weigh 50 grns weight and so on.

[waksupi]

Te only way to know is to sit down with your scale, and YOUR measure, and make your own chart.

[OverMax]

waksupi said: make your own chart.

Yup!! I figured that response was surely coming. lol
I was hoping to kibitz a chart to save me a little time Mr. Moderator. lol


QUOTE] rodwha said: Those figures should be linear. [/QUOTE]

Sounds plausible.

[mooman76]

A chart would not really save you time as it would not likely be any more accurate then the measure itself.

[waksupi]

Yup!! I figured that response was surely coming. lol
I was hoping to kibitz a chart to save me a little time Mr. Moderator. lol


QUOTE] rodwha said: Those figures should be linear.

Sounds plausible.[/QUOTE]

Measures are not all the same.

[Nobade]

Nor is powder the same. Different brands and different lots will weigh differently in the same volume measure. They will also be different depending on how you pour the powder, and if any kind of drop tube is used. Thankfully black powder is forgiving enough that it really doesn't matter most of the time.

-Nobade

[pietro]

.

FWIW

I would never consider measuring Holy Black by grains weight because BP is (supposed to be) a part of primitive (type) arms shooting & hunting - after all, I very much doubt that anyone was weighing BP 200-300 years ago.

[Omnivore]

I am at something of a loss to understand why this sort of question is asked. Maybe if you were specific as to what particular problem you were trying to solve, we could help solve it for you, but I haven't seen a problem posited here.

The grain, by the way, is a unit of weight measurement only. It started that way hundreds of years ago (one pound having been defined as the weight of seven thousand "plump GRAINS of wheat") and it remains a unit of weight today.

Black powder SUBSTITUTES were designed to replace black powder on a volume by volume basis, so whatever field measure you were using for black powder can be still used with the substitutes WITHOUT REGARD to the substitute's actual weight.

Knowing all of that then, what problem one would have left to solve I cannot guess. It's very straight-forward and utterly simple.

One possible "problem" might be that you don't have any real black powder to actually weigh in order to determine the number of "grains" of a substitute you're using. But you're not telling us what your problem is. Or maybe you don't have a scale?

One way to solve this problem, which remains undefined, would be to acquire the Lee dipper set. It comes with a slide rule-style chart, showing the weights of numerous powders that come out of each size dipper. The dippers' volumes are indicated in cubic centimeters, but for all I care they could be labeled as numbers one through twelve or A through L or what have you, because the weights in grains, indicated in the chart, is what matters.

In gun powder, the grain is the standard unit, with the dram (one sixteenth of an ounce) being the alternative, which is still used in shotgun loads, sort of, indicated as "dram equivalents" (to black powder). There are no others, though Lee has made some effort to include the cc, which is a purely volumetric unit, as a means of estimating powder weights in grains based on density. Lee is just mucking up a perfectly simple and useful system as far as I'm concerned, but they have their own funny reasons.

So, to work through a little problem-solving routine (since you haven't given us a problem, I'll invent one to solve) ; say you have some BP substitute and no real BP, and you want a 50 "grain" load of this substitute. Find the dipper that holds 50 grains of real BP, as indicated in the chart that came with the dipper set, and use that dipper for your substitute. They say the 3.4 cc dipper holds 50 grains of 2F BP. Double that for a 100 grain charge. Problem solved. See how this works? The actual weight of a substitute is irrelevant except so as to check the consistency of your throws on a scale, and even then you need not know the actual weight in grains, so long as you know whether each of several throws is consistent.

The next "problem" is to find out how much powder works best in your gun, the way you load it, and no chart can tell you that. You have to get out and do a lot of shooting. You could start, however, by telling us what gun you have, and ask if anyone has found a really good, accurate load for it, and can they please tell you all about it.

[OverMax]

Don't have a problem at this time.
According to all commenters there are just to many inconsistent variables person to person for such B/P charting to be exact in measurement. {Volume equals= scale weight.} So~ being told that. I realize now it would be a waste of my time charting B/P powder in such a manor. And especially so with H/Made Black. But one has to ask to learn as I was taught. Thanks guys. O/M

[rodwha]

It wouldn't necessarily be a waste of time for you with your measure...

[fouronesix]

Don't have a problem at this time.
According to all commenters there are just to many inconsistent variables person to person for such B/P charting to be exact in measurement. {Volume equals= scale weight.} So~ being told that. I realize now it would be a waste of my time charting B/P powder in such a manor. And especially so with H/Made Black. But one has to ask to learn as I was taught. Thanks guys. O/M

The other day I was looking at such a conversion chart for grains to BP volume based on bulk densities. However, the bulk density indexes for different types of BP vary enough as to not be exact…. so are just ball park type conversions anyway.

Most assuredly not a waste of time. And, since the grain weight is a universally understood unit of measure it is most useful for communications about charges of powder. If for example I say that my such and such 50 caliber muzzleloader likes a charge of "half a measure" full of BP… it means absolutely nothing to anyone. But on the other hand if I say my 50 caliber muzzleloader likes a charge of 75 grains of BP (whether that is actually an individually weighed charge or my measure dumps that weighed amount on average) …. that does mean something to people and can be refined further by saying something like- my 50 caliber likes 75 grains of FF GOEX.

[Omnivore]

416; that's the ticket. We all know what a grains is, and so it's a universal language, and it is THE unit when discussing powder, at least in the U.S. Some people elsewhere use the gram. For substitutes, just use the same volume of that many grains of black.

I'm curious now, and since I have Goex, Swiss and Old Eynsford in 3F I'm going to weigh charges of each from the same measure and see what differences I get. I currently have a Lee powder measure set to throw exactly 30 grains of the Goex, so I'll use that. Stay tuned. (I bet you it's not going to show a significant difference, but I have been known to be wrong)

[Doc Highwall]

The powder will vary some by density from lot to lot in the same granulation size even from the same manufacture. The powder measures from different manufactures will vary in there volumes for the supposed same charge weight.

As long as you use only one powder measure, and learn what charge weighs for a given volume of the powder that you are using, you will be alright.

Example: I would just set it for a given volume say 70 grains and work up in 5 grain increments until I get my best accuracy, then I would weigh that volume on a scale just to see what it actually weighs and record it in case I had to replace my measure. Even then just changing lots from the same powder manufacture will give me a slight change. At least I will be in the ball park to know where to start with the next lot of powder.

[Omnivore]

Without regard to lot-to-lot density variations (which are probably no more significant than the largely insignificant differences in density between brands) here is my little study for tonight;


With all the "volume equivalent" talk regarding substitute powders, I thought I'd better try this for myself, to determine whether there is enough consistency between brands of black powder to even talk about a general volume for volume substitution without identifying a specific "reference powder".


In short, if you don't care to read any farther; stating "black powder" as a reference is probably good enough for all but the most persnickety and obsessive/compulsive shooters using substitute powders.


All charges were thrown from a Lee bench top powder measure of the type commonly used for metal cartridge reloading, using the same setting. Five consecutive throws were weighed in each powder; Goex, Swiss, and Old Eynsford. The high, low, extreme spread and average weights are given for each powder. The averages are rounded to the nearest tenth grain.


Swiss is in fact more dense than either of the Goex products, but not by much. For a 100 grain measure, for example, the maximum difference in weights among these three powders is going to be around 5.7 grains (less than 6 percent if you want to look at it that way) between Old Eynsford (the least dense of the three) and Swiss (the most dense).


Regular Goex then (which is the middle density), I'd say would make a good "International Standard Black Powder" as a density reference for those who wish to discuss their substitute powder loads. If you want to check your powder measure then, so that you know how many "volume equivalent grains" of substitute powder it is throwing, for sake of communication about your loads to other people, get some Goex in the same granulation (3F for Pyrodex P, and 2F for RS for example) and weigh a few throws of the holy black. Then lock it away at the National Bureau of Standards in a hermetically sealed, environmentally controlled vault under armed guard.


When you've determined the average throw weight in real black powder, THAT is your number of "volume equivalent" grains for your substitutes.


Your field measure probably won't throw charges nearly as consistent as the bench top mechanical measures, and so the small differences between black powder brands probably doesn't matter. You could use any commercial brand of black powder as a reference powder and be close enough for jazz or government work.


I didn't try Schuetzen powder, and it's pretty popular among the BPCR shooters, so maybe there's some big revelation there that I missed which changes everything. I doubt it though. Here is all my data. All numbers are in grains as if you didn't know;


Goex 3F
30.2
30.4
30.2
30.5
29.9
=====
Hi; 30.5
Lo; 29.9
Es; 0.6
Av; 30.2
---------------------


Swiss 3F
31.6
31.6
31.4
31.3
31.5
=====
Hi; 31.6
Lo; 31.3
Es; 0.3
Av; 31.4
--------------------


Old Eynsford 3F
29.7
29.5
29.9
29.7
29.6
=====
Hi; 29.9
Lo; 29.5
Es; 0.4
Av; 29.7


Maximum difference in charge weight due to density differences between brands (based on my averages); 1.7 grains in approximately a 30 grain charge (not a big woof - your flask spout with your finger over it isn't that accurate).

[ResearchPress]

I very much doubt that anyone was weighing BP 200-300 years ago.
FWIW... During the Victorian era, keen long range riflemen weighed their charges, as many continue to do today. Hunting and target shooting have different requirements with regards to accuracy and 'one rule' does not fit all.

David