Your method for .22LR jacket de-rimming & annealing

[pertnear]

Despite the excellent best-practice tutorials on sticky's I still found various opinions on when to anneal when making .22 RF cases into jackets. I don't know if there are enough RF jacket makers to do a good survey, but I thought a poll might be interesting.

[goblism]

I have had a lot of issues when annealing before. I only anneal after at this point

[runfiverun]

I tried before and all I done was rip the rims off the cases.
take the rim off first, then anneal later.
I have even waited until I had formed the bullet completely, then annealed just the front portion [1/3] of the bullet.

[n.h.schmidt]

I have tried both ways. This always worked best when I annealed first. This is in conflict with what many others say.
n.h.schmidt

[Hickory]

I have listed my method for preparing 22 rimfire cases and have been, as much as told by some that I didn't know **** from shineola.

138960
They are good enough for shooting prairie dogs at 300 yards.

[Utah Shooter]

I think you will find after to be the most prominent.

[pertnear]

I remember someone, I think on this forum, that said he never annealed. Thought that was interesting & I was wondering about his technique & results.

Maybe I was dreaming...

:)

[SAndy37]

After.
i have had poor results with annealing before, although it may have just been that batch, however after is now when I anneal.

[b t energetics]

Personally I have done both.
I found that derimming before annealing works well.
Annealing before derimming means I can remove 1 cleaning tumble from the process (anneal dirty cases) however I found that I needed a slightly smaller punch to stop the cases sticking.

[MIBULLETS]

After is normally best, but if your punch to die clearance is greater you won't pop the heads out and the forming will be slightly easier. My set up prefers annealing after de-rimming.

[fredj338]

I followed the experts opinion on this, BT said after, so I anneal after. I've only done about 1500 jackets, but not a single tear thru while swaging. Seems right to me.

[tiger762]

If you anneal before derimming, be prepared to have brass stick to the punch and blown out rims. If using a swage press with properly adjusted die, the process goes smooth, notwithstanding the work hardened brass. Yep, that's two cleanings..

[Bills Shed]

This is an ongoing debate and we all have an opinion. I have done both and had the issue of soft cases sticking to the punch or getting many push throughs. ( A smaller punch may have worked better). I ended up always doing it after derimming. But...... Latley I have been derimming u annealed winchester brass and there were some push throughs but more annoying was the slight tears and cracks that appeared in the rim area. I have found that the Winchester brass seems to be a bit harder lately. I was not going to die wondering, so I conducted an experiment.
I know that my .22LR brass will be annealed at 550 dec C if left in my kiln for 10 minutes.
After some trial and error I found that if the kiln is set to 440Deg C the .22LR brass will be partially annealed. When this partially annealed brass is derimmed it is easier to derim and there are no tears or cracks in the rim area. They also did not stick to the punch as there was still some spring back, I could still achieve the final diameter of .224 when point forming in a 1E corbin die. Down side was when point forming in a 6S Corbin die the points did not form well when compared to fully annealed cases.
If I partial anneal, I clean the case before derimming and then again after the anneal. This is an extra step but I have found that there are very few fliers in the groups so it may be worth the effort to eliminate the flaws in cases caused by derimming.
At the end of the day, whatever works for you, stick to it, but never be afraid to experiment.

Bill

[DukeInFlorida]

I had the exact same issues with punching through the back end of the brass when I annealed first.
I'm running the derimming on a pneumatic press, which has a lot of oomph. It has enough power to push the brass through the derimming die easily.


I tried before and all I done was rip the rims off the cases.
take the rim off first, then anneal later.
I have even waited until I had formed the bullet completely, then annealed just the front portion [1/3] of the bullet.

[GONRA]

GONRA has home made CH Swag-O-Matic dies to do this.
Use STP Oil Treatment for die lube. Slather it on.....
Fired .22 LR Lapua COPPER cases (ammo sold waaay back in 1960's?) "dehead" the best.
.22 WMR BRASS cases dehead OK (100% yield) after annealing.

[6622729]

I have listed my method for preparing 22 rimfire cases and have been, as much as told by some that I didn't know **** from shineola.

138960
They are good enough for shooting prairie dogs at 300 yards.

Wow, those are fantastic looking! Who's dies are you using? Do you anneal before or after?

[Hickory]

Wow, those are fantastic looking! Who's dies are you using? Do you anneal before or after?
I have a Corbin outfit.
Mity-mite press and die to fit the press.
I've been making these since 1981.
I know what works for me.
170264

[BlackoutBuilder]

I anneal after derimming, in a lead pot. Only takes 5 or 10 minutes for several hundred rounds. Just cover the top with aluminum foil to keep the heat in. The problem I'm having is that Im still breaking about every 7 cases , so it takes forever, and is most frustrating.

[BlackoutBuilder]

When I forgot to anneal, the noses would fold over themselves in the point forming step.

[BT Sniper]

I anneal after derimming, in a lead pot. Only takes 5 or 10 minutes for several hundred rounds. Just cover the top with aluminum foil to keep the heat in. The problem I'm having is that Im still breaking about every 7 cases , so it takes forever, and is most frustrating.


You shouldn't be experiencing so may breaking threw the base. I sent you a PM, we will get you back on track.

BT

[BlackoutBuilder]

Thanks. Pm sent. Great customer service and support.

[tiger762]

That will happen in most if not all un-annealed brass. If you run the seated core/jacket into the point form die *** end first, the resulting FMJ style will not have this problem. I've been making a bunch of 62gr FMJ lately. No annealing necessary.

http://i.imgur.com/xvhtpg0.jpg




When I forgot to anneal, the noses would fold over themselves in the point forming step.

[BlackoutBuilder]

I made fmj as well, however, I got the worst accuracy of any bullet design I have ever used. I think they were just blowing the jackets off the cores, as I was only getting a couple hits on paper at only 25 yards with an AR. I was running quarter sized groups all day that day except for those fmj.

[BlackoutBuilder]

If you place a 4mm stainless steel ball bearing on the core, then point form, you get a nice little hunting round. You don't need to anneal those either.

Id love to see it in transparent ballistics gel and it would e cool to see it it would penetrate a vest.

[juan916]

I have made some FMJ with my BTSIMPLE kit havent shot any yet though 205696

[YR!]

Lovely, my attempts always split and fold. What temperature and time do you use to anneal the cases. I do have a heat treatment furnace and would like to have specific data. Thx Mark

[just bill]

Something is missing, could there be a problem with the dies or punches??
Haven't seen to much info on the die's, mostly procedures as well as certain cases that don't work well. I'm not familiar with 22 conversions only .308 and .458 from sacrificial casings, most of my problems have arisen from ever so slight punch adjustments.
Reason being there has been some unfavorable reports about ebay 22 dies in diameter as well as punch's.

[Hickory]

I have a toaster oven that I partially anneal my brass before deriming.
A lot of people think that NO annealing takes place on brass until it reaches 600 degrees, but in truth it starts at around 450 degrees. And at close to 500 degrees a partial annealing takes place and seems to be the best temperature. Hold at this temperature for 30-35 minutes.

You don't want to over do it then you will run into problems when you put the nose on your bullet. What happens if your brass is to soft the side walls or shank will collapse and you will end up with varying lengths of your bullet.
The side walls need to be strong enough to keep from collapsing.

After I derim my "jackets" I do the real and necessary annealing to the mouth of the jacket. This is where the most movement of the brass takes place. The brass needs to be pliable in order to keep the nose from folding over on itself.
The picture below shows how I have been doing this. I have since up graded the procedure, but it is basically the same,
You want a nice uniform anneal on the mouth of the case so that it draws down evenly.

I have tried all the methods listed above and this IS the best way of doing it.

207248

[clodhopper]

Thanks for the picture Hickory, but what am I seeing?

Is it a .223 case chucked in the drill, then your jacket partially exposed in the mouth, Then you never touch the flame to the jacket but just hold it close?

If so, do you have a stop inside the case for uniform exposure?

Is the jacket loose enough in the case mouth to just dump out when annealed?

[Hickory]

What you are seeing is a 4" long brass rod 3/8" in diameter with a hole in the end (depth & diameter will have to be measured, I can't tell you off the top of my head) to hold the jacket. The angle of the drill is set to swing in front of the flame when the drill starts turning, it turns for 4 seconds and the jacket falls into the coffee can.





Addendum: The diameter of the hole drilled into the end of the 3/8" rod is 0.250"
The depth of the 1/4" hole is 0.272"

[clodhopper]

:Bright idea: That's pretty creative.

[Bills Shed]

If just annealing the mouth works for you, go,for it but you will have no issues if you anneal the whole jacket! I agree that at 500 deg C annealing is taking place and I only go to 550deg C for 20 minutes. The jacket is not dead soft and it does not need to be. It is soft enough to squash with the fingers but strong enough to make longer jackets which have little supporting lead cores. I will do a thousand at a time. If making 17 cal, I derim, then anneal and then draw and trim in a draw trim die. No issues shoot great.
Bill

[Hickory]

The temperature scale I'm using is F°, if you are using C° that will translate into 932° F. Way too much for my needs.
I'll bet they glow red.

[BlackoutBuilder]

I have made some FMJ with my BTSIMPLE kit havent shot any yet though 205696

You're gonna blow the jackets off those. They don't work. In fact those were the most in accurate bullets I've ever built, however every other design out of the BT simple set that I've made and I've tried many, about a dozen, have worked beautifully. In fact the ones that are made the way they are supposed to be made are amazing.

[BlackoutBuilder]

You can put the Derimmed shells in a lee lead melting pot cover it with tinfoil and let it sit for about five minutes. Make sure there's no lead in the pot

[Traffer]

I just made my first deriming die set. I had to experiment a little with the length of taper in the die. I have a pile of 22lr shells that are mostly annealed but I got my annealed and non annealed mixed up. The testing also included cleaned and not cleaned brass. From my experiments, annealing first seems to work very well. It is a little easier to push them through the die. I have not experienced any punch throughs yet. But I have only run a hundred or so through so far. The only problem I have had is from running non cleaned cases through. OH, AND one case that was still primed...hahaha. B A N G. What the... That one has a nicely rounded dome now where the head used to be.

[Traffer]

You're gonna blow the jackets off those. They don't work. In fact those were the most in accurate bullets I've ever built, however every other design out of the BT simple set that I've made and I've tried many, about a dozen, have worked beautifully. In fact the ones that are made the way they are supposed to be made are amazing.

I just started in this and just finished building my first derimming die set. My intention is to make some 32 to 40 grain bullets for reloading 22WMR One idea was to make some reversed like that but with the extra jacket material folded underneath to form a gas block on the base. Do you think that would work?

[Traffer]

If you anneal before derimming, be prepared to have brass stick to the punch and blown out rims. If using a swage press with properly adjusted die, the process goes smooth, notwithstanding the work hardened brass. Yep, that's two cleanings..

New to this...When you say "brass stick to the punch", do you mean that it sticks so hard that it goes back through the die and is still on the punch after returning to the beginning position of the press?

[tiger762]

Yes. The friction with the punch is greater than with the inside wall of the sizing die. I would grasp the brass with pliers, then tap the pliers with a mallet. That usually removed it.


New to this...When you say "brass stick to the punch", do you mean that it sticks so hard that it goes back through the die and is still on the punch after returning to the beginning position of the press?

[firefly1957]

When i first started with some old dies i sometimes heard a crack sound as i was derimming i thought it was sand in the case,turned out sometimes some priming survives the case firing . I then started heating the cases with torch and heard the crack then so now all cases are annealed then washed and polished before derimming. I have a toaster oven that will run as hot as 650 degrees i put cases in it for an hour now to anneal them .

[Traffer]

When i first started with some old dies i sometimes heard a crack sound as i was derimming i thought it was sand in the case,turned out sometimes some priming survives the case firing . I then started heating the cases with torch and heard the crack then so now all cases are annealed then washed and polished before derimming. I have a toaster oven that will run as hot as 650 degrees i put cases in it for an hour now to anneal them .

Mine happened on a case that was from an unfired cartridge which I pulled the bullet with a scale on a bullet puller to see how much pull weight it would take to remove the bullet. This is a necessary number to know when manufacturing or re-manufacturing 22lr ammo. Which is my primary hobby.
So it was a case with a full primer charge. It made quite a pop with the gasses escaping down the punch. It did not rupture the case but ballooned out the case head pretty nicely. haha. Good thing too because my face was on the other side of that case when running it in the derimmer.

[firefly1957]

Mine happened on a case that was from an unfired cartridge which I pulled the bullet with a scale on a bullet puller to see how much pull weight it would take to remove the bullet. This is a necessary number to know when manufacturing or re-manufacturing 22lr ammo. Which is my primary hobby.
So it was a case with a full primer charge. It made quite a pop with the gasses escaping down the punch. It did not rupture the case but ballooned out the case head pretty nicely. haha. Good thing too because my face was on the other side of that case when running it in the derimmer.

These are just little pops and the smell of a primer if you get close like I said I thought it was maybe crushed gravel until looked into it more.

[Ajax111]

I was surprised after 3 hours of wet tumbling with ss pins and drying for another hour, I still have some pop on the punch when taking out the rim.

[MUSTANG]

I get "Pops" when running 22LR through my Pneumatic Press for derimming at times. It is not due to residual priming compound or frictional (glass?) products left in the rim. Rather is is because of the rigidity of the brass coupled with the size reduction of the rim to the punch/die combination. The pneumatic piston will literally "Delay" for a fraction of a second as it irons out the rim - and then it "Pops" as the pressure/resistance at the rim is gone. I really like my pneumatic derimming setup as it allows me to comfortable do 500 to a 1000 22LR derimming operations during a session.

I used to stress relieve the brass before derimming by annealing the 22LR (and 17HMR and 22WMR) cases. I stopped that process due to excessive separation of the bases during derimming - followed by the pain of removing the brass tube from the punch. Depending on brand (I sort all my 22LR cases by headstamp and store each in Costco/Sams plastic nut jars until I have 500 to 2000 of a single brand) I may or may not heat treat before core seating.