Aerial shooting

[Blackwater]

Don't know how many of you have done any of this, but it's always an interesting pursuit. I used to do it with .22's mostly, and mostly with rifles, but I and some friends got to where we weren't too bad with handguns too, when we'd practiced a bit. It can help increase one's level of instinctive shooting when done at relatively close range, and it'll help one develop the ability to acquire the sights quickly and "instinctively" when done at longer ranges, say beyond 20 ft.

The biggest problem is finding a PLACE where this is safe. In my area, this is usually near a big tract of timber or a very large field. Learning to shoot pitched targets doesn't require heavy loads, and the closer they come to squibs, the easier it is to find a field or land tract where it's safe to do this type of shooting. Remember, the angle one shoots at controls how far distant the bullet will finally drop, and the closer you shoot the targets, the less range you'll need for the bullet's fall. Lubed round balls will work for this in the centerfires in either rifle or pistol. The lower velocity of squiblike loads will affect your timing somewhat, so keep your loads consistent for consistent results. Consistent loads give consistent leads, so the first step is finding a load that your gun shoots accurately and consistently. The faster powders usually give best results with round balls, but "collar button" or very short, light wad cutters work just as well to maybe a bit better. You just want a minimal length and wt. bullet so it doesn't travel as far, and falls to earth within the range where you have to shoot at safely.

With those things accomplished, you're ready to start playing and learning how to do some rather interesting and useful shooting. It'll teach you how to shoot instinctively, and once you learn that, you'll find it quickly transfers into acquiring a quick "flash" sight picture, and THEN, you're really beginning to shoot well. If you ever happen to have to shoot in self defense, say from a bad guy or a charging wild boar or whatever, you'll be glad you practiced this, and it's entirely possible that it could one day help toward saving your life. Today, that fact is sadly more likely than it's probably ever been, so it's not "showing off" at all, but more of a simple and useful training and learning tool, actually.

Anyway, if you've never tried it, you might want to give it a whirl. Just be sure you have a good, safe place to do it, and have fun. We always learn faster when what we're doing is just plain fun, and aerial shooting fits that bill quite well.

Any of you done much of this? I suspect there are a number of you who've done this. Chime in and give some who haven't some encouragement.

[wmitty]

I have tried this using both handgun and .22 r f rifle, but the only safe location near me is the Red river, where one's vision is not blocked by trees or hills. It is great fun, but we get to try it so infrequently that we have never become proficient at it.

[44man]

Long ago in Ohio where I had room. Ruger Mark I. Had an old farmer's dump full of bottles with no houses for miles. I always used the sights. I started by tossing them up with my left hand and worked until I held the gun in my left hand so I could throw the bottle as far as I could, grab the gun and hit every bottle.
Lay off for a month and had to start all over again. You lose it FAST!
When young I had a pellet gun that fit so well I removed the sights. I could peel a starling of the pole clear across the yard and put tape over a hole in a washer, toss it up and shoot through the hole. The tape proved it to those watching. Had a semi auto BB pistol, toss a can and hit it 4 or 5 times.
I was good with a shotgun and with an Ithaca 37, would triple on a covey of quail. Now I can't hit a clay!
It is amazing how good you can get. Never tried larger guns for safety reasons.

[fcvan]

I used to load birdshot in my .357 and shoot soda cans, clay pigeons, paper plates, etc., just to work on draw/fire drills. Had a good time and didn't have to worry about great distances. Just plain fun!

[AggieEE]

My grandad was a blacksmith in a small town. The kids used to come to his shop and toss up chalky marbles and he would bust them with a .22, shorts only at that time. When I was shooting skeet and trap more I used to wish I had him back alive and well, we could have had so much fun and made a little money in the process.

[Litl Red 3991]

Back when I was a kid, flipping pennies into the air and hitting them was the trick. I'd go out to the "wildlife club" (setup by a skeet/trap club) that was a couple of miles off the highway where the trick could win me a box of 22s. Still got the Rem 514 that did the deed. Even after the word got around, guys would still bet on it. Now that I'm older, I sometimes wish there was a kid that'd show up at the range looking for ammo like that who thought he was tricking those guys.

That wildlife club is gone. No matter, there are solid houses that couple of miles to the highway. And solid neighborhoods one after the other on past where it used to be.

[milrifle]

Many years ago, a friend and I went shooting. As we unloaded the truck, I grabbed my .22 and he had a skeet thrower in his hand. I jokingly told him to throw me one. He said something like "Yeah, right." and threw a clay for me, which I promptly busted all to L. He was amazed and said there was no way I could do it again. Not to let my better judgment get in the way of my machismo, I said "Oh, yeah? throw me another one." Should have kept my mouth shut. Never hit another one.:-(

[CastingFool]

During basic training, in the U.S. Army, we did something like that. It was called "Instinctive Shooting" No, we didn't do it with M-16s. We used BB guns. 350 fps, so you could see the bb, and "walk" your rounds in. Started out with a 5" aluminum disk, then progressed to a 3" disk. They also had these target stand with silhouettes that would spin. The fun was to get all 4 silhouettes spinning and keep them spinning. After a while, I got bored with the 3" disk, so I tossed a quarter to my shooting partner. It took me a little while, but I got so I could hit the quarter in the air. I still have it. I was very surprised when I started hitting the quarter, as I'm right handed, left eye dominant (very)

[cliff55]

Did alot of that at one time. golf balls with 22 rifle.
Best hadgun I used 1851 cap and ball.
At the dump doing some practive with cap lock rifle.
Guy i know was throwing diner plates away. Joked about throwing then up
for me. Said go head broke 4 for him. They were big and easy to hit. Didn't tell him that

[wmitty]

My dad and his three older brothers were shooting at chimney swifts in their back yard with a single shot .22 when my grandad walked out the back door in time to see the oldest miss a bird. He asked for the rifle and promptly dropped a swift with his first shot. He looked at the eldest as he handed him back the rifle and said " It ain't the gun..."

[Blackwater]

Grreat stories, guys. Isn't it amazing what we can do when we don't get all caught up in ego and there's nothing to lose, and our inner instincts are allowed to reign? I've done an awful lot of shooting down on the lower 40 where I could focus and there were no distractions, and that always helped, I think. I got to where nothing I tried intimidated or concerned my ego, and that LET me do some things I never thought I could do. After that, I figured there wasn't anything to be concerned or nervous about in any endeavor, and that helped when I started shooting competitively. Experimentation CAN help us shoot better in all venues and situations, and is sure one heckuva' darn good teacher, too.

CF, I have the same problem, but over the years have trained my right eye to be MORE dominant. That's a comparative statement, and it CAN get me stymied at times, but I keep fighting it. My youngest grandson is the same way - cross eyed dominant.

Milrifle, I was a bit luckier than you were. Was shooting a shotgun at clays in preparation for an upcoming dove shoot, and we ran out of shells. My wife's cousin said, "Well, I guess we're done, and went to put the clays and thrower up. With great bravado, I ostentatiously said, "Hold up. I've got a .22 in the truck," and went to retrieve it and some ammo. "You're kidding!" she said in return. I acted as though my feelings had been hurt, and said, "Just throw one and we'll see." Miraculously, I hit the first one on the 9th shot. They all exclaimed how good that was, and I said, "Throw another one." I was never one to leave well enough alone. "You're kidding!" they said. "Nope. Not a'tall. Throw it." And with that, she threw another one. I busted that one on the 3rd shot, and nobody was more astonished than I was. "I can't believe it," they said. "Just one more and I've got to go," I said, knowing darned well I'd miss this one. But I didn't. I hit that 3rd one on the very first shot! Now I may not be too bright, and I may on occasion such as this, press a matter beyond all rationality, just to see what'll happen (as long as nobody's likely to get hurt), but NOBODY on God's Green Earth could have gotten me to shoot another one of those clays, and in fact, I haven't done that since. It's really not all that difficult, but I figured I'd used up all the luck I was entitled to, and THEN some, so .... I STILL haven't tried that one again .... yet. I'm no great shakes with a shotgun, so maybe I ought to stick with the .22 on a dove field???? :lol: ;-) Sure is fun to try stuff like that sometimes, though. Not making sense is something I've always liked to try, just to find out what sense really is. :drinks: :Fire::redneck:

[Snow ninja]

Me and my boy try it all the time with the red Ryder. Can get pretty proficient with practice. I shot 3 carpenter bees on the fly a couple of days ago. I'm mostly working on my hip shooting at the moment.

[Cowboy_Dan]

Went to the range with my brothers today. Shot some trap, and as we ran out of shells for the long guns I reached into my bag and produced a .45/.410 revolver and some shells. Missed the first one, but hit the other three. I blamed the miss on the snubnose barrel.

[GhostHawk]

Up in this country we get Swallows that build nests under the bridges. Never ending supply of Mosquito's and fly's for those guys up here.

Try shooting Cliff Swallows on the wing with a .22lr rifle with open sights.
The "easy" shots where when they'd dive low over the river. Shoot a foot ahead of them and they'd run into the splash and fall in the river.

Easiest and I suspect safest way to get started, find a good BB gun, a good friend, friend throws pop can as high as he comfortably can.
You start out just trying to hit the can. Then trying to hit the bottom, then as success breeds confidence, trying for dead center in bottom.

From there you can work up pretty easily to the big washer and tape routine.
In a couple of weeks you can turn yourself into a wing shooting shoot anything anywhere anytime master.
But as noted above, you have to maintain the practice to keep it.

Its all just sight picture, timing and sticking with it till you master it. Bit of confidence doesn't hurt any.

[44man]

My best shot ever was at a quarry where we shot all the time. Ducks got off the water and kept circling up high in a wind that pushed them to unreal speed.
My friend shot at them every pass with his .22 and they were going downwind at maybe 100 mph at over 200 yards. I said let me show you how it's done! I swung who knows how far ahead of one with my 760 in .270. Nothing, then he wobbled and dropped. Took an hour to find it and I had blown it in half. Darn bird was full of worms too.
Even today I have no trouble killing running deer even beyond 220 yards. I shoot moving or running deer with a revolver and red dot, can't do it with open sights. I never stop deer to shoot.
One of my better shots was a running doe, leaping and bounding over brush at a measured 125 yards using a .50 cal Hawken and Maxi Ball.
I have shot many walking deer with a bow but can't hit one running, arrows do funny things when you swing a bow.
I seem to have a natural, built in lead and can find an opening ahead of a deer.
I once took hair off a running wood chuck at 550 yards with my Flat top Ruger, open sights, off hand. One of those Elmer shots! Can I say "Hell, I was there?"
Flushed a rabbit and took hair off with a cap and ball but no meat.

[44man]

One important thing is when you swing, it removes the shakes you have when shooting at a standing deer.

[Dale53]

When I was a young man, I bought a Dee Woolum (National Fast Draw Champion) fast draw holster kit from Tandy Leather. It was metal lined and well designed. I believe it was Crosman that had a single action CO2 pellet gun (revolver). From the leather, throwing with the gun hand, I was able to work myself up to 4 out of five oil cans in the air (throwing the can, drawing the single action and cocking in one motion). Later, when I started deer hunting, my first deer was hit perfectly at full speed (just behind the shoulder). IPSC practice on running targets didn't hurt, either.

With a good bit of work, entirely credible work CAN be done! "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting" by Ed McGivern is a veritable text book on this sort of "stuff" - it sure taught me a lot...

FWIW
Dale53

[44man]

We lost Ed and Bob and many others. The young today will never know what we had. Annie long gone. Anyone can get good but today it is cost and we needed to work for a living so time is short too. We have Jerry so may he live a long life. Watching him shows he is just a plain person that worked hard. Same I found in any competition, the best helped everyone.
One time I went to a running deer shoot with my Swede. That thing was FAST with obstacles in mid run. I had 4 shots in the neck in front of the shoulder, about a 2" group but a live round hit the ground as I worked the bolt. The circle was behind the shoulder of course. I think it was twenty seconds from end run to end, work the bolt like mad. Autos were not allowed but a club member did shoot one to win. Why a different rule for members? I should have had the 760. Then the club member could figure lead ahead of time too. He could practice any time. A matter of four inches!

[MT Chambers]

I use a 12 gauge.

[Blackwater]

It's been many years ago now, back when I was in much better practice than I've been for the last 15 years or so, but I was out scouting some new deer hunting land with a buddy, and we stopped by a smallish water hole near the road. It was surrounded by palmettos and thick brush. It was a hot summer day and the air was very still. I wanted to see how much water was in it so I'd know when and how much it might be a factor in deer movements there, and my buddy "let" me do my own investigating. Ain't it nice how our "buddies" do this to us? Anyway, I waded very slowly and cautiously into the palmettos, and as I got into them and near a point where I could observe the water hole decently, I suddenly smelled the very heavy scent of a rattlesnake! I was in a pretty embarassing position. My buddy had gone elsewhere to scout another location, so there I was alone, without a stick to lift the palmettos and look under them to FIND the danged snake, and couldn't move unless and until I DID know where he was. Not a good place to be! All I could do was stand there as starkly still as any other part of the scenery, and try to figure out what to do next. My next move could be VERY important! I usually cut a long stick to lift palmettos in that kind of situation, but had neglected to do so - a mistake I've never made since! The best I could do was move my head around very slowly, and peer down into the spaces between the palmetto leaves, trying to find that dangnable snake. This didn't work out very well. No matter where or how I moved my head, seeking that rattler, I could find nothing - no scales, no telltale indication of where it was. To say I was frustrated and scared would be an understatement. After exhausting all my available options, I finally decided there was nothing left to do but move as slowly, easily and cautiously as I could, and retrace my footsteps out the same way I'd come in, and just hope I'd avoid that rattler. Not a good situation to be in, but it was all I could do, having forgotten to carry my "snake stick" into that situation beforehand. Foresight sure is valuable IF we use it! I didn't that time, and as a result, I was as "keyed up" as I've ever been in my life. I'd long ago drawn my .45 auto when I first smelled the snake. The fastest "draw" is to have it in your hand, you know. Feeling very intimidated, afraid and desperate, I eased my way backward as slowly as the proverbial molasses in the wintertime. In this process, a palmetto that I'd brushed aside suddenly passed my leg, and sprang back into position, making a sudden noise as it struck other palmettos. That startled me even more, but the sudden "gwawwwk" of something and the flapping of wings to my left and front baked that cake even moreso, and I swung around a bit and let loose a shot at the noise and the sudden flash of color and the sound of air being beaten rather loudly. "Bang!" and the great bird sidled over and sailed to the ground. That gwawwwkkk and teh thrashing wings didn't sound like a snake of course, but I was so danged keyed up that it startled me, and I just fired instinctively and without any conscious thought due to my high level of fear. I realized immediately after the shot, of course, that shooting a big bird wasn't helping my snake situation, and I could still smell it strongly in the still air, so I again focused on the immediate problem of getting out of those palmettos without getting bit. I continued to VERY slowly move back, retracing my steps, and finally, after much trepidation and perspiration, got back to the road where I breathed a HUGE sigh of relief! Then I realized I had to go BACK into those palmettos to get the bird I'd shot, and maybe just wounded. I do NOT leave wounded or dead game in the woods. This did not make me much of a happy camper, but it had to be done. THIS time, though, I cut a long stick to lift the palmettos with as I went along - now a HUGE asset since I knew there was a rattler in there somewhere - I just didn't know exactly where. I chose another route to get to where the bird had seemed to fall into, and worked my way along fairly confidently, using the stick to lift the palmettos and inspect whatever lay beneath them. Still rattled, this helped my mood considerably, but I was still rather keyed up. I don't scare easily, but once scared, I don't cast it off quickly, either.

I finally worked my way into the palmetto patch, and the very large bird was pretty easy to find. It was stone cold dead, shot through the breast at about the wing butts. I took it and worked my way back to the road, still using the stick to raise and inspect the palmettos before advancing. Got back to the road, and my buddy soon returned in his truck. He asked why I'd shot such a non-edible bird, and I had to tell him the story of how it all happened. He looked at the palmettos, and understood. Ironically, I never DID get to inspect that water hole. That idea simply got erased from my mind after smelling that rattler. And yes, you CAN smell a rattler IF the conditions are right, as they were that day. Both of us knew our wildlife species pretty well, but neither of us was familiar with this bird. We both tried to identify it on getting home. It took several days, but he finally identified it as a species that was then on the endangered species list. I took it and tied some bricks to it and dropped it in a creek. I hated having shot it, of course, and would never have intentionally done so. Fear and training just didn't work out quite so well on that occasion as they're always intended to. The species has been off the endangered list for a very long time now, and is doing well, so at least that part of it worked out OK. I still regret that shot, but in all honesty, I don't think I could have NOT taken it under those specific circumstances. "Reaction" is programmed into us for when there's no time to think, and that's exactly what happened here. No thought involved at all, and no time for it, either, what with my fear and tension levels being so high. II literally was in fear of my life at the time, and naturally was very subject to my prior "programming" of my reflexes in that situation. At least I now understand just how Wild Bill shot his own deputy through the heart when he came running up from behind him after shooting a bad guy. That bird hadn't gotten 10 ft into the air when I shot it. I still cringe when I remember that event, and no, it's not a shot I'm proud of, but it does indicate just how we CAN learn to react when we've trained ourselves well and thoroughly. Not much thinking is really required in shooting, actually, or at least the mechanical part of it, and most of the time, thinking can mess us up more than it can help us, but there ARE certain circumstances where it can work against us as to results. Wild Bill and I can certainly verify that. It certainly taught me to NEVER go into a patch of palmettos without a good, long stick again, or into any sort of brush were rattlers or other meanies might hide. Some lessons are just learned the hard way.

[44man]

Great story, glad we don't have bad snakes here. Supposed to be some copper heads but in 28 years I never seen one, just black snakes I leave alone.
Closest I came was in north eastern Ohio as a kid, my brother took me fishing in a little creek. We had some little fish on the stringer and it kept moving. I lifted it and there were two cotton mouths hanging on the fish. I shot them with my BB gun. They were not very big but had the pure white mouths and little fangs. There are not supposed to be any in Ohio.
Now FLA has those big constrictors and they catch them??? What do they do with them? Why not just shoot the things?
Same as gators they catch and release, one in my yard and I would be making BBQ and shoes.
I can see in snake country you need to be fast.
I don't like the deep south, too many bugs, strange trees and growth, WAY too hot. I love snow as old as I am.

[Patrick L]

I do it all the time, with shotguns. Its called Skeet:kidding:

[TXGunNut]

Does shooting the breeze count?

[Blackwater]

In any discussion in which guns are involved, it not only counts, but gets you extra points! ;-)

[TXGunNut]

Good, I suck at wingshooting.....but my shotgun sure is pretty. :-)

[smokeywolf]

This is worth a look. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhibition_shooting

I've always been fascinated by the feats of marksmanship exhibited by Ad and Plinky Topperwein. There's a interesting section on them in the Harold Williamson book "Winchester, the Gun That Won the West"

In 1907, Adolf shot 72,500 2-1/2" wooden blocks tossed in the air. Missed only 9 of them. Had one run of 14,540 without a miss. This was done for eight hours a day over a period of ten consecutive days. He said he had nightmares that the blocks would be a mile away and the bullets wouldn't come out the muzzle of the gun.

Plinky (Elizabeth) set a trap shooting record of 1,952 hits out of 2,000.

smokeywolf

[44man]

They were amazing long ago. They could not do it today, sad bunch of .22's they make! Half would not go off and others would fizzle.
Long ago WW made the best high speed ammo and even the Wildcats were good, I won IHMSA with them. Rem went to pot because of changes to speed production. CCI might be the best today.
I get funny sounds from Fed too.
Long ago with a 39 A Mounty I could put 5 WW high speeds into 3/4" at 100, just try that today!
The Mounty is a gun I want to see come back. Sweetest little lever gun ever made.

[mozeppa]

i once put a jar of flies on a fence post near cow dung,

had my assistant pull off the cover and step back.

i was 50 yards away and i killed every fly before they could get to the dung...(head shots every one.)
standing backwards with a hand mirror , using a ruger blackhawk single six 22lr
reloaded 9 times....did it all in 11 seconds.

couple years later i got quite a bit faster.

[44man]

i once put a jar of flies on a fence post near cow dung,

had my assistant pull off the cover and step back.

i was 50 yards away and i killed every fly before they could get to the dung...(head shots every one.)
standing backwards with a hand mirror , using a ruger blackhawk single six 22lr
reloaded 9 times....did it all in 11 seconds.

couple years later i got quite a bit faster.
I need you here, can't go outside without getting moved along the ground by gnats! be great practice.

[Blackwater]

Doubting Thomases have always been with us. I DO have a lot more respect for those who'll at least express their doubts. When people say what they REALLY think, there's always reason to think any discrepancies in perception can be resolved. That's significant. Still.

[smokeywolf]

i once put a jar of flies on a fence post near cow dung,

had my assistant pull off the cover and step back.

i was 50 yards away and i killed every fly before they could get to the dung...(head shots every one.)
standing backwards with a hand mirror , using a ruger blackhawk single six 22lr
reloaded 9 times....did it all in 11 seconds.

couple years later i got quite a bit faster.

I think you're stretching the truth. I'll bet you had your assistant reloading for you.

[44man]

I don't profess to being able anymore. I had such good vision when young, sights and the target both would be in focus and I did not shake.
But to do any fancy shooting takes constant practice, every day, not once a month.
Most fall into the long trip to a range, going to work, house work and on and on. I can't get angry over doubt. Most around here can't hit a standing deer at 50 yards with a rifle because they never shoot until season.
Did you ever notices Bob's hands in his videos? They were as black as can be, he must have shot 1000 rounds before a camera was turned on. What he did in a day could not be done by a normal shooter in a lifetime. Jerry and all the best seem to never have a gun out of their hands. Work and dedication.
I was lucky with the places I had to shoot on. Don't think I shot 100 factory loads in my life unless someone comes here with them. I shot a LOT. With the loader I had I could load 500 shot shells an hour and they were shot as fast.
Some here can draw and shoot in a split second because they work at it. Give me five minutes to get a gun out!
I watch steel shooting and say, naw, can't be done. Nobody can acquire a target that fast but they really do.
Most of my shooting when growing up was long range. I won the 500 yard KD range in the army with the M1. Had one out of the bull. My daughter shot the highest score ever shot by a woman in the Marines, out shot every man too. She could break 100 straight clays with her 20 Ga, ran out of shells, gave her my 12 and she missed the first and ran all the rest. My other daughter could not find her boot laces. Second daughter thought she knew all and tried to show she was better but never listened to a thing, always in trouble at home. Still has a screwed up life.
Tough to fit if you are too smart to listen!

[Digital Dan]

Was raised on shotguns and wing shooting, thus it is my greatest strength. After many years it baffles me that so many struggle with shooting airborne or moving targets even when in pursuit of large slow moving targets. As example, North Vietnamese AA gunners could not, from a statistical perspective, hit a bull in the butt if he sauntered to the waterhole.

Thank you for that Lord.

[44man]

One of the best off hand shooters I ever had here was Whitworth. Take little water bottles near 100 yards from a tree stand with no rest. He wrote some great books about handguns.
A secret is when I was teaching him to load. I had to jump on him about moving the press handle at the speed of light but he came around and made darn accurate stuff. Each and every load must be felt and must be no worse then any other. The amount loaded means nothing, it is not numbers. 10 rounds that hit is better then 500 misses. Hard to explain here because many want a 5 gal bucket of boolits and brag about speed. Use a progressive and pour out scuds, complain the measure does not throw even charges after being shaken like crazy. Even a progressive can be controlled. Cut sprues when molten and ask for help, it goes on and on all day.
I suppose the hardest thing to teach is to slow down and make the best you can. The most important thing you can do is have every boolit go to the sights. Only then can we blame ourselves for a miss. If you want to smoke clays, you need a pattern.
Many are born with loose neck threads and look for someone else to crank them tight.
There are no stupid questions but you should look for real life experiences over the thousands of answers read somewhere.

[mozeppa]

I think you're stretching the truth. I'll bet you had your assistant reloading for you.

nope ...she can't run a hunnert yards in 11 seconds...and she'd be too tard to try loadin'

[mozeppa]

uuh yeah i meant 50 yards!....yeah ...thats the ticket!

and i'm no doubting thomas either!...my uncle russ was three times faster than me!

he was a headin' fer bed one night ...switched off the light and was in bed sound aspleep afore the room got dark!

[Blackwater]

Amen, Dan. And that's a BIG part of the reason I'm so concerned about the status of American shooters and their abilities. It looks like we're headed toward having to fight again, though the opponents could be pretty varied this time. Being a "nation of riflemen" went a long way toward winning WWII, but I'm not too sure we'd fare that well today, and THAT is a REAL concern that could affect each and every one of us, agnostics and knowers alike. Just got back from the ball park where my youngest grandson lost 13-1. He's a really good player, and got put on a team with others who are pretty poor players to "even things out." Anything hit outside the infield couldn't even be stopped, much less caught in a glove while we were on defense. These are the 10 yr. olds. When us old pharts were 10, we could throw, catch and hit. The kids his age now can't. Too much time on video games. My elder grandson, age 15, is the youngest player on his varsity baseball team in high school, and they just got eliminated from the final 8 series by a team that placed 4th last year, and had mostly seniors this year. Our team will lose few seniors this year. They played some awesome ball, and Cole, my eldest, got 2 hits, scored 2 runs, and made several really spectacular fielding plays, despite being the youngest on the team. The other players all respect him. AND he's good at video games TOO. He just gets "out there" with the bat, ball and glove," and isn't a "one trick pony." These things matter. Always have. Always will ..... well, as long as we remain "America," which is the big question for us all. Apparently, many just don't feel any need or see any necessity to be good with a gun, or at work, or in relationships, or much of anything else. What kind of guy would I be if I didn't try to at least let more folks know it CAN be done, IF they'll but utilize the time they expend unloading ammo already in a simple but different way? Nobody wants to be challenged or contested any more. It's never been an "everybody wins" world, and it'll never be, even if we get to temporarily THINK of it as such.

Skills MATTER. They always have. They always will. And everybody here, including me, CAN get better. All it takes is a little spirit of "can do" or even "wonder what I can do?" along with a bit of a guiding principle and a goal when we get the chance to shoot. It's so devilishly simple!

[Digital Dan]

Blackwater, I hear ya. Spent a lot of time across the big pond years back offering myself up as one of those low slow targets. We weren't without a means to defend ourselves, but still, those folks did a lot more shooting than hitting. Well there was one day when we brought a Huey home with 176 holes in it. Stunt shooting if you ask me, there were no injuries to crew or two pax.

On your point, thing I saw over there was green kids learning quick. Lot of motivation to do so, and if they lasted the first few months they did OK mostly. Some of them even turned into stunt shooters. If it ever goes sideways here in the homeland I think most of the country will be well defended. The big metro areas are toast. Livin' and dyin' in 3/4 time...

End of the day, I never had a lot of faith in America, but there is no limit to how much I believe in the vast majority of the people.

[rking22]

Used to play with it alot. In the 70s I had an ACE conversion kit for my 1911. I could hit 3 Miller Pony bottles ,hand thrown in the air, with 3 shots. Just threw bottles ,cans, ect up and shot them at the old roadside dump. there wasnt a house within 5 miles or more at the time. we grew up in the country hunting small game and shooting and fishing all he time. We did'nt know you couldn't hit a target thrown in the air with a rifle. So we just worked at it until we could. I still shoot boring bees with air guns on occasion. It's all about confidence, if you think you can't do it then you probably can't. There was a rather large black bird that got a 44 mad bullet inflight from a 92, probably close to 75 yards away! I am 100% on that shot (won't try it again, young and stoopid at the time). All this with friends I still shoot and hunt with, have to sometimes tell them to "shush"so the kids don't repeat some of those antics!
I coach youth shotgun sports, international skeet by preference, but mainly teach them to "shoot a shotgun". At times they try to "aim" rather than "point" the shotgun. It is time then to take their gun and shoot a few from the hip, explaining that the most imprtant thing is HARD FOCUS on the TARGET. That usually gets them to understand that the bead on a shotgun is just there to fill the hole someone drilled and tapped in the barrel and not a sight. One of the kids wanted to learn to hip shoot. I explained it is just a matter of hard focus on the target and confidence. Now, there is a "calibration" period while you learn where your shot goes vs where you want it. That requires a 22,a dirt bank to shoot against (need to see your shots), and stationary targets. He took that and now ,a year later, is able to break international speed targets from most any skeet station from the hip( he just won silver at the state junior olympics with a 117 out of 125). He never had anyone tell him it wasn't possiable, and most youth think anything is possiable.
I shot a round of american skeet one day with 2 other range officiers. I wasn't really up for it so decided to shoot from the hip out of curiosity. Shot a 22, missing the high 6, 3 times (that is the target I prefer to demonstrate on!). For some reason I am much better with an 870 than overunders?????
The US military taught it in the 60s, with a bb gun, Quick Kill. Another poster actually did this training, I hope he posts back. Heres a link:
http://militarythoughts.blogspot.com/2008/05/this-is-coolbert-quick-kill.html

[TXGunNut]

Long ago WW made the best high speed ammo and even the Wildcats were good, I won IHMSA with them.-44man

I used to have a Ruger MKI that thought Wildcat was target ammo, shot outdoor pistol matches with it during the PPC offseason. That old Ruger isn't very bright, it thinks most anything I shove in the magazine is target ammo, lol. I guess that will change when I run out of old ammo.

[Blackwater]

Wow, kring! That's some GOOD shooting! I don't doubt you, either. Never seen anyone claim that that couldn't deliver it, unless they and everyone around knew they were just jesting. I envy your talent with a shotgun. That's always been my weakness, and I've been seriously wanting to find my flaw, and try to correct it so I'm at least passably proficient, and your comment on "focus" is what I've finally come up with as my most probable problem. Eyesight problems, neuropathy in my hands now, diabetes variabilities, back problems, and just generally being about half used-up will likely make getting better a real challenge, but what's life without a challenge or two to prompt us to better things? Thanks for some solidification of my hypothesis. We pick up these "little" things in the oddest and most unexpected paces sometimes, but that's why we just need to keep paying attention, isn't it? Nobody ever got to be a better shot by just thinking about it, but it DOES help an awfully lot in deciding what aspect of our shooting to focus on and try to retrain ourselves to do so we get to be better shots. Actual thoughts, rather than simple impulses, should guide our shooting whenever we get a chance. I've been doing this so many years that it's virtually automatic now. Have to stop and think when teaching my grandkids or others how to shoot more effectively, but I'll take that. As an old phart, I have heavier loads to carry, for sure! Thanks for a tip that means something to me right now.

[rking22]

Blackwaer , that comment about it being automatic reminded me of something, and thanks for the compliment as I'm really not all that! I was teaching a group of youth and they were having trouble on skeet sta 8. I had never thought about it so I decided to carefully "disassemble" what I was doing so that I could teach it as a process. Well I truly and good took it apart, they learned something and I could not hit a sta8 bird for 2 months after that! Morel is to not think too much about what your doing when it's working. Kinda like "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" :)
I tell the folks I coach that if they don't KNOW why they missed then focus harder on the target and focus longer AFTER you think you pulled the trigger! Follow thru is king and TRUE follow thru is maintaining HARD focus on the bird until it breaks (or folds), not just "keep the muzzle moving".
We grew up with shotguns and 22s in our hands and learned by trial and error, now kids deer hunt and turkey hunt ,no small game or upland much anymore. They learn to aim but not to just "let it happen" and trust their natural abilities. I have a good friend who tells them not to get in the way of their natural "animal", so true, we can do much more than we often realize if we just let go and DO IT..

I am happy to say that TWF has plans to try and "bring back" small game hunting for the youth in TN.

[44man]

The most important thing for fancy shooting with any long gun is FIT. I have had few factory stocks fit, the 37 and old Browning hump back were perfect for me. No thinking or aiming at all. The gun must shoot where you look.
I still have a 20 ga Browning superposed that shot so high I could not hit, took a file to the stock to remove the high trap type fit. Trap stocks are no good for hunting.
Same with a single shot 410 I bought from a guy in town, shot so high it was useless. Out came the files.
If the gun falls perfect to cheek and shoulder it is like a paint brush. You see the bird but not the barrel or bead.
Handguns bring in a large amount of difficulty.

[rking22]

So true on fit. I can deal with a low comb but if I can't get my eye down it makes it difficult to shoot good scores. I too dislike the ATA idea of 80 to 100% hi to "build in" lead. Can't consistently hit anything but a rising target with that setup, no good on the Bunker either.
Anyone with a Tarus 410 pistol (can't remember the name) should really try it on a skeet field. It will consistently break everything except sta4 , and about 1/2 of the sta 4 birds with 2 1/2 in 9s. A friend had one and we shot a round with it, I almost bought one just for that reason. Then realized I really didn't need another toy :) If you have one, forget the sights and forget single action. Call for the birds and smoothly point it and pull the trigger thru DA while keeping focus on the target. Doubles from the corners are more fun than your wife would approve!

[44man]

Whatever, but is dead on FUN. At least I have the memories and nothing can replace that.
As more land is used, less of you can experience the fun.

[Digital Dan]

Some time back, in the latter part of the last century as I recall, I spent a fair bit of energy busting clays in all forms save trap, but including live pigeons. About 16K rounds per year for about 3 years. As noted here previously, a very large part of success is found in how the gun fits you, but of course there other factors very important as well. I characterize success in wing shooting as a disciplined instinct, little more.

Because of my background in wing shooting I have a bit of a penchant for making guns fit, be they shotguns or rifles. So it came to pass one evening in Georgia river bottom country that I rousted a bedded buck at a distance of about 5 yards. First view of him he was in mid leap with his belly about head level to me. He hit the ground dead just a few yards further away with a .30 caliber hole thru the neck about 3" behind the ear. Never saw the sights or barrel or had the first hint of debate as to whether or not to shoot. Pure instinct and nothing more.

Amazing what you can do with a Model 94 if you put your mind to it.

[Blackwater]

Yep. It really is amazing. And BTW, how'd you fit that M-94's stock to you? I have an old Pre-64 ('51 vintage) in great shape that I want to work with a good deal, and I've never been really comfortable with its stock dimensions. Not sure I'll want to change anything, since "old soldiers" like that need to say stock, but I could change my mind at some point, of course. I also have a few more leverguns, and have always thought they'd look mighty good with curly maple stocks and really good blue jobs on truly flat surfaces. THAT is a project that I'd really like to get into when I get "caught up" with the projects I already have. Did you just order more wood for the comb?

[dondiego]

I also have a few more leverguns, and have always thought they'd look mighty good with curly maple stocks and really good blue jobs on truly flat surfaces. THAT is a project that I'd really like to get into when I get "caught up" with the projects I already have.

Now that is an interesting concept that I would like to try. Color case hardened receivers would be nice too!

Don

[Digital Dan]

Yep. It really is amazing. And BTW, how'd you fit that M-94's stock to you? I have an old Pre-64 ('51 vintage) in great shape that I want to work with a good deal, and I've never been really comfortable with its stock dimensions. Not sure I'll want to change anything, since "old soldiers" like that need to say stock, but I could change my mind at some point, of course. I also have a few more leverguns, and have always thought they'd look mighty good with curly maple stocks and really good blue jobs on truly flat surfaces. THAT is a project that I'd really like to get into when I get "caught up" with the projects I already have. Did you just order more wood for the comb?

LOP adjustment with a pad of about 1.5". It was enough to make the stars align. Makes it a bit long for some, but OTOH, I shoot an Ithaca 37 of '50s vintage with an LOP of 12.5". It is the only gun I tripled quail on a rise with...3 times..in one day. 99% of fitting a gun is adjusting where your cheek rests on the comb, primarily to give one the proper sight picture/plane. Easy way to approach that for most guns is adjusting LOP.

[Blackwater]

Interesting. I may have to try that. I've always used stocks short enough to get to my sholder very quickly, and longish stocks slowed me down, but when I shot them, I DO remember I did rather well with them. YOu may have helped me more than either of us know.

And Don, you're right of course, but I've usually fantisized about a glass bead blasted finish with e-nickel. Either way, I think I'd just flat fall in love. Saw one like it once, and nearly cried when he told me the price and I found I didn't have enough $$$ for it. Ah, the painfulness of being a "gun nut!"

[rking22]

The best fitting rifle I have ever touched is my Rem 141, feels like my 28 Ga 870 and points just as well! I am building a scoped 760 right now and cannot get it to feel like I want. Always have trouble getting that "wingshooting" fit with a scoped gun.

[Digital Dan]

Everyone has their own geometry, so do guns. The objective of proper fit is for the gun to mount consistently with the proper relationship between line of sight and bore center line. If you look at the image below you will notice differences in three things. Drop at comb and heel, and LOP. The drop of comb and heal define the slope of the comb, that being the salient feature in aligning LOS and bore. One can modify the drops of course, but the easiest approach is to modify LOP, thus changing where your cheek weld will be.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/LOP_zpsrbd4kn6p.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/LOP_zpsrbd4kn6p.jpg.html)

[Blackwater]

OK. Makes sense to me. I have noted differences in LOP and how they affected me before on jobs I've done, and I think you may have just put me on a solution that has been sitting right in front of me without my noticing it as fully as I should have. I have some guns I'll be cutting for pads soon and I think I can put different spacers in slip on pads to experiment with before I cut. This should allow me to come up with a faster, more accurate gun. Thanks again.

[bedbugbilly]

Great post that brought back a lot of memories. I used to do that when I was a kid - used a 22 rifle with shorts. I used things such as dried up "road apples", regular apples off a tree, etc. I was never very good at hitting them but it was fun. It's probably been 50 years anyway since I tried it and at that time, it was on our farm where there was plenty of space and very few houses around. Now, it's a different story as the area has "grown" so much - as they say . . . "what goes up must come down" so it's really not safe to do it here anymore. When I got my first BP revolver ('51 Navy) many, many years ago, I did a lot of practice as far as "instinct" shooting at such things as apples, blocks of 2 X 4, etc. sitting on fallen logs. That was a lot of fun as well and I did have some luck hitting the targets after a lot of practice. I admire those that can do such things as instinct shooting and aerial shooting as it truly is a "skill". I still try instinct shooting once in a while at stationary targets with my 38s . . . . and the nice thing is that I'm so poor at it that the targets last forever! LOL

[44man]

Ya know, memories are the greatest things ever. Many of us old goats did more then youngsters will ever have a chance to do. So they question us. Can't get angry, they have no idea because they have no way to do it, a large loss in my opinion. Most live on a keyboard today.
My opinion is stick a rifle in their hands to defend our nation. If I was the POTUS, every single person would have to serve. Nobody could be president until they served. War not needed, just training. Woman too.
How I love George Bush and his love for our vets. I would bring back the draft so every black or whatever had to serve. No running off like Clinton did, jail time for him. The present POTUS should be tarred and feathered and run out on a rail.
Sorry to get into politics but I am PISSED OFF. Shooting and owning guns is our right, not something given to us.
I want the old days, buy a revolver in the mail. Learn right from wrong. Steal a horse and hang.

[Blackwater]

Yet again, 44man, you bring a smile to my face. It's good to know folks who still KNOW and UNDERSTAND. "Principles" aren't taught any more. It's all about what people WANT to think, as an "opinion," rather than what experience and wars and Truth have to offer in trying to teach us. Not True? No matter, "believe what you want to" is the order of today. Few listen to all this, and fewer still heed the Truths there in your post. But I have it on good authority from a big black book I have that soon, a Grand Equalizer will come and set things aright. My great sin is loving THIS world a little TOO much, but I'm losing that progressively as we continue our downward spiral, and marksmanship and our manner of "thinking," if you can call it that, is just the symptom. Truth WILL come. It's just a matter of time, and I personally suspect it can't be very long in coming. Then it'll just be a matter of the sorting process, and disposal of the stuff that just won't fit where we're all designed to wind up, if we'll but humbly submit to the Truths we CAN know. As ol' Forrest Gump said, in that eterous world of the cinema, "Stupid is as stupid does." I reckon that about sums it all up, whether or not we're liars or can or can't do the things we've done. One day, it'll ALL be clear as chrystal to ALL of us.

[44man]

I pray all the time for the Lord to come back. Evil has gone too far. He destroyed evil before and I wonder why he waits now. I want to be at his side when the day comes. I know all of you will be with me too. The best I had recently was about 79 virgins. God said who said they are women?