Need a few 45/70 suggestions

[Blackcat]

Its been a while. My current project is working up some cast loads for my marlin 45/70 sbl lever action guide gun.

As always im finding that wading through the vast amoint of info available is a bit daunting. I was wondering if someone could help me narrow it down a bit.

Im searching for one general purpose all around well balanced load. Thats both accurate and heavy hitting. Im thinking of perhaps something along the lines of a 400 or so grain flatnose.
Im also searching for one very heavy hitting close range round in the 500+ grain range. It doesnt have to be terribly accurate. Pushing the limits of this rifle but not quite into the pressure range that will cause a whole lot of undue wear and tear on the rifle (this is my fun load lol)

Im a fan of lee molds mostly because thats what im familiar with and what I can afford. What are some recommendations for a couple of molds and some loads that you guys like that fit this bill ?

Thanks!

[MT Chambers]

My 45/70 is a Cowboy Marlin with Ballard type rifling and is most accurate with the lighter bullets, my fav. is an Accurate 340 gr. FP gc, check Tom's website.

[Blackwater]

I haven't found it to be terribly critical in loading. It seems to digest a wide array of loads very well, with little criticality in loads. However, three powders I can personally recommend are 3031, H-4198 and H-322. 3031 is the "classic" powder for it, but my own gun seems to like H-4198 a little bit better, and it seems to produce max. velocity if you're looking for that for some particular purpose. I tried H-322 and it gave grat accuracy, and did it at a level of recoil that was pretty pleasant, and was effective on the front end as well. Just enough velocity for a fairly long shot, it it was ever required. I never got around to chronoing it, but longer range shooting showed it to be sufficient for what I wanted and needed. Even then, it's no 300 yd. load, but that's never been important to me with that gun. I use it back in the woods where long shots are very rare. Up to 150 yds., though, it'll do the business pretty well if you know your trajectory. That was with 300 gr. bullets, mostly the yellow kind. I think 3031 works well with bullets of 400 gr. and up, but left a little to be desired with the 300's in my gun. The .45/70's low expansion ratio (relation of bore volume to case volume) makes faster powders more efficient, which is a good thing since you get more loads per pound of powder - a neat side benefit that's always appreciated. BTW, if you plan to shoot many heavy loads in it, a Pachmyr Decelerator pad helps, but maybe that's just because I'm gittin' old and don't like recoil as much as I once did. It also let you adjust length of pull when you do that, too, which is always a nice thing. You should get good results with most any reasonable load, and workup shouldn't be much of a problem. The biggest problem, really, is differentiating between the finer loads and those nearly as good in performance. That's been my experience with 3 of my own .45/70's, and with friends who've had a number more of them. Great caliber, any way you want to measure it by. I think you're really going to enjoy that gun.

[afish4570]

Lee has a mould for a 340gr. boolit. I have used a traditional Lyman 457122, FP not the HP version. It weighs 338 grs. depending on boolit metal used. I have shot several white tail deer and the boolit design Gould goes back to the 1890's or so. Paul Mathews book, "40 yrs. With the 45-70" talks alot about its use and effectiveness on various big game.I use it in a #3 Ruger afish4570

[osteodoc08]

Accurate 460400L with 50+gr Varget.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-400L-D.png

[Keyston44]

Since you said you are a fan of Lee molds, You could try the Lee 457-405-F. Mine drops out of the mold at .459. I shoot it as cast. I dip lube it with 45-45-10 and It is very accurate out of my Marlin Guide Gun. I've loaded it with 14 gr of Unique for "plinking" load and a heavy dose of H322 for everything else load.

Key

[Jevyod]

I have the Accurate 460-415V and my SBL shoots well with that load. Along with 40.5 grains 4198.

[montana_charlie]

Im thinking of perhaps something along the lines of a 400 or so grain flatnose.
Im also searching for one very heavy hitting close range round in the 500+ grain range.
Before making a decision on bullet weight, find out what the rifling rate of twist is.

If it is 'slow' (not unusual on lever guns) you won't get good service from the heavy bullets.

CM

[pjames32]

350gr NOE in my Marlin with either 4227 or 5744. 5744 seems to be more accurate in my Marlin.
Heavier bullets don't seem to do as well. YMMV
PJ

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I have shot through the shoulders of elk with 300 grain bullets in my Marlin 45-70. Heavier bullets add recoil and create more issues with trajectory for most 'practical' hunting (under 300 yards).

[Blackcat]

A few good ideas here so far im looking into these suggestions now.
Thanks!

[Blackcat]

The rate of twist in this rifle is 1:20 but im not sure how to tell if that's fast or slow.

[High Desert Hunter]

As I shoot my 45/70s at 200 and in, I like the heavier bullets, I have a new mold from Accurate Molds that drops a 460gr WFNGC bullet that feeds pretty slick through my Marlin, and shoots well through my Ruger #1.

138998
138999
139000
Group was fired seated off of sticks at 50 yards from my #1, velocity is near 1600fps with these 460gr sledgehammers.

[44man]

All good advise. My friend has the stainless guide gun that he refuses to sell me even though he never shoots anymore. :killingpc He brought some CA loads he bought and they shot very good. Only one to stay away from is A-Merc, bad stuff. Every single case split in the size die.
3031 will be as good as it gets, lower recoil then 4198 and a few others.
I don't know the twist of the Marlin but it seems right for a good range of weights.
The only real bad Marlin was the .44 mag.

[pls1911]

BlackCat covered the powders, High Desert Hunter covered the heavy bullet heavy hitter catagory.. Meplats matter!
However, for an all around thumper that won't thump you back equally hard, I'd recommend the 350 RanchDog or NOE equivalent at about 1600 fps.
Designed for Marlin actions, this bullet has proven to be accurate in every 45/70 I own, from Marlins to Sharps, Rugers, Brownings, Winnies, Remington Rollers and even Thompson Encores and Contenders. Of course the broad meplat sounds like a breaking timber when it hits.

In addition to the powders mentioned, I recommend you consider Reloader 7 as well, as it's clean burning and very consistent for mid power 45/70 loads.

[montana_charlie]

The rate of twist in this rifle is 1:20 but im not sure how to tell if that's fast or slow.
You could say that 22 is slow, 18 is medium, and 16 is fast.
20 will stabilize bullets about 1.3 inches long.

[High Desert Hunter]

I really like H322, and not to be contrary, I find that IMR4198 burns cleaner in my guns than IMR3031, but for the heavier bullets H322 just plain works, as does AA2015. I must confess I have never tried RL 7, but it must be a good one as I see so many loads for it, and so many recommendations. I cast 345gr RCBS bullets, 415gr bullets from a mold I got on here from a group buy, the RCBS 405 which drops at 420grs, this new Accurate Molds 460gr bullet (which has proven to be the most accurate bullet I have used in either one of my 45/70s) and the big Lyman 457125 which drops at 525grs from my mold. I don't shoot my 45/70s at ranges over 200, so I have found that the heavier bullets at modest velocities deliver the goods much better than the light bullets at higher speeds.

[TXGunNut]

The 45-70 is a very forgiving round, suspect no less than a dozen boolits and powders will give excellent results with hundreds of possible combinations. I've tried dozens of loads from BP and traditional Lyman boolits to the modern j-words and latest powders and barely scratched the surface. I prefer a 350gr boolit launched at a leisurely (for a Guide Gun) velocity, no need to abuse my shoulder these days.

[W.R.Buchanan]

All the Marlin .45-70's are 1:20 twist and that twist rate has been considered by the industry to be standard for this caliber for along time. Wish they'd do .44 magnums the same way.

My go to boolit is RCBS .45-300 FNGC. it runs anywhere from 300-325 gr depending on the exact mould.

I run that boolit with anywhere from 25 to 35 gr of 5744. I have never chrono'd these loads but would expect 1300-1600 fps.

RCBS also makes .45-405 FNGC and .45-500 FNGC which have the exact same nose section but are longer behind the crimp groove and feed exactly the same way in Lever Guns. All load to 2.550 OAL as the crimp groove is dimensioned off the front of these boolits. The difference is in the length of the boolits behind the crimp groove and the number of grease grooves.

I see boolits in the 300-425 gr range being the most useful for the .45-70. I see no point in using 500 gr boolits other than to bruise your shoulder.

I might add that the RCBS .45-405 FNGC is one of the most popular boolits for the .45-70 out there.

I personally don't need anything above 300 gr since I am only shooting steel targets with mine. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot an Elk or Moose with a 300 gr boolit either since I know it will go all the way thru either one. Still for Hunting a 400 gr boolit might be a better option, just cuz.

Most .45-70 factory loads have 400 gr bullets.

Randy

[JesterGrin_1]

The only real bad Marlin was the .44 mag. Very True. It was a Huge waste of powder,lead,time and aggravation. Plus I am positive that I drop 44man flat nuts lol. :)

The best hunting bullet I found for the Marlin 1894SS .44 Mag was a bullet that many said would not stabilize. Well they were wrong lol. It was the Lee 310Gr RNFP/GC with a very healthy dose of W-296 and a standard LPP that would give me about a 2 1/2" group at 100 yards with a scope or to say almost as good as a sling shot lol. 600 or so rounds later lol.


All the Marlin .45-70's are 1:20 twist and that twist rate has been considered by the industry to be standard for this caliber for along time. Wish they'd do .44 magnums the same way.

My go to boolit is RCBS .45-300 FNGC. it runs anywhere from 300-325 gr depending on the exact mould.

I run that boolit with anywhere from 25 to 35 gr of 5744. I have never chrono'd these loads but would expect 1300-1600 fps.

RCBS also makes .45-405 FNGC and .45-500 FNGC which have the exact same nose section but are longer behind the crimp groove and feed exactly the same way in Lever Guns. All load to 2.550 OAL as the crimp groove is dimensioned off the front of these boolits. The difference is in the length of the boolits behind the crimp groove and the number of grease grooves.

I see boolits in the 300-425 gr range being the most useful for the .45-70. I see no point in using 500 gr boolits other than to bruise your shoulder.

I might add that the RCBS .45-405 FNGC is one of the most popular boolits for the .45-70 out there.

I personally don't need anything above 300 gr since I am only shooting steel targets with mine. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot an Elk or Moose with a 300 gr boolit either since I know it will go all the way thru either one. Still for Hunting a 400 gr boolit might be a better option, just cuz.

Most .45-70 factory loads have 400 gr bullets.

Randy

Randy I just wished to say that for some odd reason my JM Marlin 1895GS in 45-70 Government did not like 300Gr bullets as far as accuracy went. Sure I could get around 1 1/4-1 1/2" groups at 100 yards with a scope. But as soon as I jumped up to the Hornady 350Gr RN and the Ranch Dog 350Gr RNFP/GC with little load work up with H-322 I was getting 3/4" and less groups at 100 yards. Maybe the 300Gr is on the ragged edge of being to short vs the bore diameter?

[44man]

I did use the Lee 310 in my .44 and the RD 265 and even as fast as I could drive them, I never knew where a boolit was going at 100.
I have a special boolit I had Dave farmer make me a mold for, more pointed for long range. It shot great at 50 but still not good at 100. I forget the weight but it is about 240 gr. I had some super 50 yard loads but even if I put 3 close together at 100, I could miss paper with the rest. I shot a huge doe at 65 yards and did not hit where aimed but she only took a step. Just luck!
What was funny about the gun was the pointed boolit would not eject a live round so I shortened brass just for it. My huge 330 gr would cycle.
I sold the gun to jack Huntington to convert to another caliber.
I hated the twist and called Marlin to see if they would change to a .444 twist barrel and they asked if it was under warranty, What is that warranty stuff on a gun? They sent me a copy of Greenhill. I can't afford a barrel change on a lever gun, it is expensive. Can't buy a pre-shaped barrel and the machining is beyond what I can do.

[Duckiller]

I have a 1895 cowboy and it does not like boolits that are too long. My gun feeds 200-400gr boolits just fine. 500gr boolits would either be single shot or seated so far into the case to get it to feed that it would only be for shooting tin cans at close range, definitely not for shooting buffalo.

[JesterGrin_1]

I did use the Lee 310 in my .44 and the RD 265 and even as fast as I could drive them, I never knew where a boolit was going at 100.
I have a special boolit I had Dave farmer make me a mold for, more pointed for long range. It shot great at 50 but still not good at 100. I forget the weight but it is about 240 gr. I had some super 50 yard loads but even if I put 3 close together at 100, I could miss paper with the rest. I shot a huge doe at 65 yards and did not hit where aimed but she only took a step. Just luck!
What was funny about the gun was the pointed boolit would not eject a live round so I shortened brass just for it. My huge 330 gr would cycle.
I sold the gun to jack Huntington to convert to another caliber.
I hated the twist and called Marlin to see if they would change to a .444 twist barrel and they asked if it was under warranty, What is that warranty stuff on a gun? They sent me a copy of Greenhill. I can't afford a barrel change on a lever gun, it is expensive. Can't buy a pre-shaped barrel and the machining is beyond what I can do.

Actually in the end I am glad the Marlin 1894SS .44 Mag did not work out or I might never have purchased the JM Marlin 1895 GS in 45-70 Government. To say that I was even shaky about that purchase would be an understatement lol. But I am so darn happy I did.

Sorry for a bit off topic but I have found the Marlin 1895 in 45-70 Government to be very accurate rifles for what they are at around 3/4" groups and less at 100 yards with a scope.

Also the JM Marlin 1894 in .38Sp/.357 Magnum has also proven to be very accurate with the Hornady 180Gr XTP/HP with W-296 or H-110. But unlike the .44 Mag the .357 Magnum prefers the CCI SP Magnum Primer over the CCI SP Standard Primers.

[44man]

Actually in the end I am glad the Marlin 1894SS .44 Mag did not work out or I might never have purchased the JM Marlin 1895 GS in 45-70 Government. To say that I was even shaky about that purchase would be an understatement lol. But I am so darn happy I did.

Sorry for a bit off topic but I have found the Marlin 1895 in 45-70 Government to be very accurate rifles for what they are at around 3/4" groups and less at 100 yards with a scope.

Also the JM Marlin 1894 in .38Sp/.357 Magnum has also proven to be very accurate with the Hornady 180Gr XTP/HP with W-296 or H-110. But unlike the .44 Mag the .357 Magnum prefers the CCI SP Magnum Primer over the CCI SP Standard Primers.
That is true, the only caliber Marlin screwed up was the .44 mag. They started with a 1 in 38" for the .444 and changed to 1 in 20" but would not change the .44. It was such a sweet little gun but was a pain to get to shoot.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Jester: I would consider 1.5" at 100 yards to be pretty good shooting for one of these rifles. Getting 3/4" out of one is pretty outstanding accuracy.

I have 3, 45-70 moulds. One RCBS .45-300FNGC that came stock dropping at .458. Another one that RCBS made for me after I bitched at them for specing all their moulds using Linotype, that drops WW material at .461-462 and weigh 325 gr, I size those to .460 and they shoot well. And an NOE mould that drops a boolit that looks like a LBT WFN at 425 gr which I have not gotten to run right yet. It has one cavity as an HP and is very difficult to manipulate, and you can't develop a rhythm.

My 1895CB has a Receiver Sight on it so I'm never going to see 3/4" groups @ 100 yards, maybe @ 50?

I look at these guns as 2MOA guns, and I realize that under some circumstances they can do better, but the guy behind the trigger has to be able to deliver.

Maybe I should install a scope on it and see what it will really do?

Randy

[Vulcan Bob]

I use a Lee 457-405-F, drops at .458" and 412gr with straight COWW with two percent tin. I wound up using Accurate 5744 loading it to 1300 FPS. Mild recoil and plenty of smack down power for anything in the lower 48. It's accurate in my 1895 Marlin Cowboy.

[MBTcustom]

The Marlin 45-70, and the Browning 1886 is 1-20.
This is industry standard for lever action rifles, and given the limitations of bullet length in these platforms, it is ideal for 405gr and smaller bullets. Not because of weight mind you, but because of length. The lever guns (especially the Marlin) require a bullet that protrudes from the brass no more than .400 (.375 is better) which really limits the possible bullet weights over 450 grains.
Therefore, the twist rates are set accordingly.
When dealing with single shot rifles, bullet weight is no longer hindered by feeding, and the concept of shooting 550+ grain bullets becomes a very real option.
In this case, 1-20 is no longer ideal, but slightly slow for twist rate, requiring you to shoot at fairly high velocities at times to properly stabilize the really long pointed target bullets, but is still very nice for flat nosed hunting bullets which are inherently shorter.

If the goal is to shoot the long BPCR creedmoore bullets, the 1-16 is the fastest you really want to consider.
Typically, I want the slowest twist that will work to stabilize the bullet at the max range it will be used at. Therefore, if you plan to shoot fast with smokeless powder and long bullets, at long range, 1-20 is probably where you want to be.
If you plan on shooting long bullets at 1500ish FPS, then 1-18 is perfect, or you can shoot shorter bullets with BP very comfortably with 1-18.
But if you plan to shoot long range with long bullets using BP exclusively, 1-16 may just be the cats meow, and you can use it pretty effectively with reduced loads with smokeless.
Thats the way I see it.