Thoughts on boolits for low SD cartridges...

[FergusonTO35]

Since I got my Kahr .380 I have been thinking alot about what the best boolit would be for it. What do you guys think of the stubby round nose boolits typically used in the Makarov and .380 Auto? I know their primary design aim is reliable feeding, but I'm thinking a short ogive round nose might not be such a bad choice for a defensive boolit in these cartridges. In my mind at least, they really don't have the sectional density or velocity to get consistently good penetration with a wide flat point or hollow point, unless driven to much higher than usual velocity. Worst case, such a boolit might be diverted or significantly slowed down by a heavy coat or thickly muscled bad guy. Maybe a blunt round nose is the best choice for this type of cartridge?

The Lee 356-102-1R has an SD of .114, the 365-95-RF is even worse with .101. The 76 grain flat point from Accurate molds I use in my Kel-Tec .32 Auto comes in at .110. By contrast the 356-120-TC comes in at .135, the 358-158-RF weighs in at .176. The 9mm and .38 Special +P have no problems with penetration when using the latter two boolits at typical velocities, therefore a hollow point or wide flat point can be used to create a bigger wound channel without sacrificing too much penetration. The only way to get more SD out of the .380 is to step up to a 9mm weight boolit, which of course brings problems of its own.

I accept the fact that the .380 is a .380, a gun I carry when I cannot or don't want to carry something bigger. As much as I like the 356-95-RF I just don't think it has the velocity or SD to make the wide flat point an asset, the 356-102-1R is a more realistic choice for this application. If I can get a boolit out of my Kahr CT-380 up to 900 fps with good accuracy I'll call it good, this is already faster than most factory ball loads in this gun. Any thoughts on this topic? I know alot of folks are into Makarovs nowadays so presumably they have considered the same thing.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

In my opinion (based off of limited tests with newspaper and water jugs) a round nose cast boolit of reasonably soft alloy performs well. That being said, modern advances in ammo technology have brought even the humble 380 a LONG way. Unless the ammo is simply unavailable in your area, I see no reason to not take advantage of these modern advances.

Cast in the 380 is fine for practice and certainly better than a rock in self defense but personally I load quality factory ammo in my 380 after a trip to the range.

[jcren]

Look at the Lee tl356-95 rf. It is more of a tc design and if cast fairly hard (ww or 50/50 wc) Will generate surprising hydraulic shock and if it doesn't expand, penetrate quite well. I loaded some of Penn's 100 tc for a friend and their performance on water jugs was inspiring.

[rking22]

Load some of the Lee 95 FN on 3.1 of 231 and shoot some "stuff" with them. Then do the same with the RN and decide what you like. My Beretta 84 shoots the 100gr RD at better than 900 (actually 1015 if my memory works) and all will stay on a tuna can at 15 yards. It penetrates well and is 100% reliable function. When you try to take the 380 much past 105 gr(what my RD mold casts) it doesn't work as well for me. I tried it while waiting on the group buy. I want the flat point, I do not want a light HP, round nose would be second choice for me. Load lots, shoot lots, the little guns like attention in order to perform well for you :)

[fecmech]

My thoughts on the .380 (and that's all I carry) are that I want all the penetration I can get and flat points generally penetrate in a straight line. I think a person should practice shooting quickly and accurately and hope that when and if the time comes your practice pays off with good hits on your target. That extra .1" of expansion that you traded off for 3 or 4" of penetration isn't going to matter much if you don't put the bullet where it's needed. We just had an officer involved shooting locally where the officer hit the subject with 3 .45's in the body who then ran back into the house and later committed suicide. Hand guns are marginal weapons and the .380 is at the bottom of that list. Learn to shoot it well, that to me is the most important point.

[FergusonTO35]

Very good advice folks, thanks. I have both Lee .380 molds and like them alot.

Rking22, incidentally I did chrono the Lee 356-95-RF over 3.1 grains HP-38 today out of the Kahr's 3" barrel. Not horrible but still needs improvement:

3.1 grains Hodgdon HP-38, .357 Lee 356-95-RF, Federal SP primer, .957 OAL.
Low: 835.0
High: 909.2
Average: 867.2
Ex. Spread: 74.21
St. Deviation: 24.39

Gonna try some Bullseye this weekend, I've always had really good success with it in 9mm with boolits.

[Bigslug]

I accept the fact that the .380 is a .380, a gun I carry when I cannot or don't want to carry something bigger.

Don't sell it short - two rounds of .380 started WWI.

The "gutless" reputation largely stems (I think) from the hollowpoint-obessed era we are currently in - created largely by (a.) profit-driven marketing hype and (b.) ill-conceived overpenetration paranoia. Most .380 hollowpoints won't penetrate enough to reliably hit important things, and hollowpoints are generally what folks these days carry - hence the reputation as a non-stopper.

Ball rounds though. . .not your best bet either. They poke holes, but clean small ones that don't leak very fast. On that topic, I tend to think that the instant stop from a non-brain/spine hit delivered by any handgun is more myth than anything else. On witnessing deer that have had their hearts removed by .30-06's and .45-70's take ten seconds to fall, I have to posit that the best you can do is to make the leak flow as quickly as possible. A ragged wound channel - regardless of diameter - is going to drain more than a neat poke.

Best bet, IMO is a flat nose. Winchester makes such in an FMJ. There's a few good mold options for same. Cast 'em hard and place 'em accurately. This will give a hole that's deep enough and, while not a 1-oz deer slug, is at least wider than you'll get with a RN profile.

[FergusonTO35]

Don't sell it short - two rounds of .380 started WWI.

The "gutless" reputation largely stems (I think) from the hollowpoint-obessed era we are currently in - created largely by (a.) profit-driven marketing hype and (b.) ill-conceived overpenetration paranoia. Most .380 hollowpoints won't penetrate enough to reliably hit important things, and hollowpoints are generally what folks these days carry - hence the reputation as a non-stopper.


My thoughts exactly! Not a fan of flimsy, lightweight expanding bullets for any application and never will be. My 9mm defense ammo is a Berry's 124 grain plated flat point at 1020 fps, .38 Special is a 162 grain 358-158-RF at 850 fps, and .32 Auto is a 76 grain lead flat point at 886 fps. I think either of the Lee boolits at 900-950 fps should be good, hopefully 3.2 grains Bullseye will get me there.

[fecmech]

I think either of the Lee boolits at 900-950 fps should be good, hopefully 3.2 grains Bullseye will get me there.
My Keltec P3AT needs 3.6/BE to get 900fps with the RD bullet. That was listed as max by RD on his site.

[bhn22]

LBT offers a well designed bullet for those of you who must carry mouseguns. They are not $25.00 like LEEs however, so if that's what your budget requires, please disregard this message.

As far as WWI, if such credit is being given for murdering an unsuspecting married couple by a kook, then party on. There was nothing romantic or patriotic about it. In fact, Princip was a coward, and eventually dies an ignominous cowards death.

[FergusonTO35]

Fecmech, how far does your P3AT fling the brass? That's my only dislike about the P32, my fine rate for brass is only 50% or so.

[fecmech]

I do my practicing at an indoor range so finding the brass is no problem. We have a neat set up on the turning targets, some kind of Olympic mode. Turns the targets to you for 2 secs and then away for 7 secs and back again for 2 secs. I hang old .22 BE targets back side to me on every other frame and shoot from 20' with the KT. When I practice regularly I can generally come from a "low ready" and double tap two targets in the 2 sec time or 1 shot each on 3 targets. That little KT will shoot!

[FergusonTO35]

They certainly do shoot well. I can shoot mine at close distances as well as any of my larger pistols. The very few failures I've experienced with it were my totally my fault.

[FergusonTO35]

This morning I stumbled on a good load for the CT380. Shot some targets and chrono'd it, I think we have a winner!

3.1 grains Bullseye, 356-95-RF sized to .357 dipped in LLA, Federal primer, .957 OAL
Low: 898.5
High: 949.9
Average: 925.4
Ex. Spread: 51.41
St. Deviation: 15.36

[rking22]

Sounds like a good load. I know its kinda pointless, but have you shot any rested groups with your new Kahr? I think the reason I am getting more velocity from the 3.1 of 231 is partially the longer barrel but mostly the pressure. I have to seat to .930 (from memory) and that is a noticiable reduction in powderspace! If I go over .940 it debullets every time I open the slide on a loaded round! I have been thinking it would be interesting to load a 380 in .010 OAL increments and chrono strings to plot the effect of seating depth on velocity (thus pressure). The OAL question comes up frequently with the 380 and RD design.

[fecmech]

The OAL question comes up frequently with the 380 and RD design.
Ranch Dogs data was listed with a .924" min OAL on his site.

[FergusonTO35]

Never actually bench rested it, just a sitting two handed grip like all my other pistols. I load my 356-102's with the case mouth even with the top lube groove and a light crimp. .957-.965 depending on the brass. The CT380 really likes 'em strong. I bumped the charge up to 3.4 grains HP-38 and the groups got tighter and more point of aim. Gonna try 3.3 grains Bullseye next.