What "big" caliber in an H&R?

[three50seven]

I have a desire to buy another H&R Hand-Rifle. I want it to be what I would consider a "big" caliber. I know that H&R is more or less gone now, but there are still several to chose from on Gun Broker and other sites. The 3 calibers I am choosing between are .35 Whelen, .444 Marlin, and .45/70 govt. Of these 3, which would be the easiest to reload and find components for? I know the Whelen is kind of the odd-ball of the 3, but I still think it is a really cool cartridge. I don't have a specific use in mind for it, but when has that ever stopped a gun purchase :grin:

[badge176]

my $.02... on Brass availability- .444 and .45/70 is tough to come by while you can form up .35 Whelen from .30-06 cases which are Easy to obtain...

That said, I really love my .45/70s!

[GhostHawk]

I went with the .444 Marlin myself recently. I have been happy with my choice.

I've been shooting the Lee .430 310 grain bullet over 13 grains of Red Dot and getting good accuracy.
3 in the same hole at 25 y sighting my scope in. 1" group at 50, 2 in the same hole at 75 y with a third less than an inch away.

Good enough for my needs.

I do want to shoot at least 1 5 gallon bucket of water. And I'll make the 45 min drive out to my own land to do some long range testing.
I suspect around 200 would be as far as I'd expect good results from that load. But, it is easy on my shoulder.

[jmort]

.45-70 or .500 S&W

[Bohica793]

45-70 here also

[three50seven]

Thanks all for the input so far, all valid points. Like badge176 said, 35 Whelen can be formed from '06 brass, and 35 cal bullets are everywhere, but I already have a Handi in .357 Maxi...

I think I'm kind of leaning towards the .444...

[dogmower]

500 s&w. can load it from 275 grains to 600 grain boolits and everything in between. I shoot a 600 grain mountain molds cast GC over longshot at about 1100 fps. hits like a freight train at 200 meters.

[jmort]

The 500 S&W really shines in a rifle.

[Mr Peabody]

Has the 38-55 crossed your mind? A fun round to shoot.

[three50seven]

Neither the 500 S&W or 38-55 had really crossed my mind. In fact, I wasn't aware they offered the 38-55.

[oldred]

What? You don't already have a 45/70????? Shame on you! Definitely you NEED one of those in 45/70 then maybe you can choose something else later on, get what's necessary first! :grin:

[Artful]

I'm with the 45-70 crowd.

[tdoyka]

i'd go with the 444 marlin. i have the 45-70 handi and the 444 in tc encore with a MGM 23" barrel. the 45-70 for the most part, just sits there. the 444 tho, goes out as much as it can. i use trail boss and 200gr xtps and h4198 for 265gr hornady fn. soon the 265gr(280gr) ranch dog is going to get a work out. it has become my favorite caliber!

[dualsport]

They're all good. Want iron sights on that? Narrows down choices. Bud's is selling two barrel combos pretty cheap. .35 Rem. and a .444 for a song.

[pworley1]

I have the 35 Whelen and the 45 70 both are great rifles. I am sure that the 444 would also be fine. As stated above the brass availability for the 35 Whelen is much better than for the other two. They will all kill anything you want to hunt.

[three50seven]

dualsport- I'm not seeing those combos anywhere....but they do have some really good prices!

[koger]

Get the 45 70, shoot bullets from 300-600 grains, will do anything the .444 does better, more types of brass available, and I see it for sale every day. My 2 handis in 45/70, will literally shoot cloverleaf's at 100yds with cast or jacket, are not finicky!

[GhostHawk]

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/87479/H%26R+72541+Handi-Rifle+Combo+Break+Open+35R444+1+Synthetic+S

Buy a couple of reasonably priced scopes and you have 2 guns for the price of one.

[rfd]

absolutely the .45-70

[Rustyleee]

If you're looking for the biggest thing around get a .45-70 and ream it out to a .45-120.
Your shoulder will not be happy with you.

[Shooter6br]

Make mine 45-70 Mild to Wild.................

[BAGTIC]

If reloading with smokeless powder the .45-120 has little extra to offer over the 45-70. A 45-70 will drive a lead bullet as fast as is practical and with as much recoil as you will probably find comfortable. 45-70 brass will always be available and cheap compared to the .45-120.

[rfd]

imho, the .45-120 borders on ridiculous ... no, i'm wrong - it IS ridiculous for *almost* all shooters/hunters. unless an african safari is the quest, who really needs more than trap door loads? :grin: :popcorn:

[dualsport]

What? Did I hear somebody say the N word? "Need?" What's Need got to do with it!?

[oldred]

What? Did I hear somebody say the N word? "Need?" What's Need got to do with it!?

You're right it's all about GREED not NEED! :grin:

If we all settled for only what we needed life sure would be boring!

[NavyVet1959]

I vote for the .45-70 in the Buffalo Classic model. You have the potential for even more velocity with that 32" barrel and the peep sights are better for those of us with old eyes.

And if you want even more diameter, go with the rifled 12-gauge "Ultra Slug" model.

[Hiwall55]

My buddy got one last year that beats all-50-90. We stuck some 620 creedmoors in it and it will kill anything that walks on Gods green earth.

[jmort]

The .73 caliber H&R Ultra Slug Hunter with a 1000 grain slug is the ne plus ultra, no pun intended.

[NavyVet1959]

The .73 caliber H&R Ultra Slug Hunter with a 1000 grain slug is the ne plus ultra, no pun intended.

I seem to remember that they guy that was doing the "12-gauge From Hell" was using a H&R Ultra Slug Hunter at one time during his development.

[Whiterabbit]

BIG caliber? that would be the 20 ga ultra slug hunter :) Brass hulls from midway, full diameter lead molds are out there (NOE), good to go. :)

I vote 45/70.

[dh2]

I am a fan of the 45/70 I have one in a Marlin but did find me a H&R in 444 Marlin it is a good pig popper , nothing gets up from either one , I see either one as a good choice

[Clark]

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/ClarkM/45-70handirifleSteelinsertcasefillerwithprimerhole155 gr458RBcastbullet400fpsBBgunlike19pounds14pounds.j pg
I got a used 45/70 handi rifle in Sept 1999 for $100 from a guy in a wheel chair at a gunshow.

I have shot Ruger #1 only published loads and doubled them 32 gr Unique 405 gr cast, Quickload thinks that is 88,000 psi. I can tell you the brass flows into the extractor.

I have enjoyed that gun more than the guns that cost me $1,000.

[JimP.]

45-70 with 500 grain bullets, load up or down....fun....fun...fun

[Lonegun1894]

Out of your options, I would vote .45-70, and in the Buffalo Classic is at all possible. I have a .45-70 BC and a .44 Mag SB2 rifle, and both are great. The .444, well, while a great caliber for just about any use, unless you want to be able to use .43" stuff, it's just a wanna-be almost .45-70. And the .35 Whelen, another great caliber, but it ISN'T a "big bore", it's just a medium!

[kungfustyle]

Just a thought. H&R is out of business and no longer producing rifles. However, CVA's can be had and are fantastic. Bud's gun shop had a 35 remington for $170. Comes with a Lifetime warranty. I did get one in 45-70 and it is a fantastic gun. I had three rounds on top of each other at 100 yards w/ the Lyman 385 rn mold and I'm just trying out the 457193 fn w/ good results. 500g boolits out to 200 yards that hit right where they should.

[Texantothecore]

.45-70 definitely. Large bullets through roundball it does everything well and it is really like owning 3 or 4 guns. Rabbit through elephant, it is all good.

[colt1960]

Another vote for the 45/70 here.

[Lead Fred]

I have two made by H&R, both are 45/70

[kfarm]

Got a 38-55 barrel for my BC, gave up on getting a accurate load for it now the 45-70 a different story.

[Jedman]

Another vote here for the 45-70. It is one of the handis best shooting calibers and one of the most versatile. It is a joy to reload do to the size of the big bullets and casings and can be loaded with small charges of faster powder and cast bullets and has low recoil and economy
The 444 is great to but not as much in choices of bullet weights.

Jedman

[tdoyka]

The 444 is great to but not as much in choices of bullet weights.

Jedman

beartooth alone has 19 bullets for the 444. http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm
noe molds and the others have a great seletion too.

my favorite happens to be the 265gr(280gr) ranch dog in the 444 marlin.

[gpidaho]

I bought the 35Rem 444 Marlin combo from Bud's. The combo was only $300. I had always wanted the 35 Rem and got the 444 as a bonus on a whim. I really like the 35 but I think I've shot twice as many 444 Boolits, Very fun wimpy to wild. GP

[jonp]

I have the 35 Whelen. It has been a real challenge to resize 30-06 and get it to work.

[big bore 99]

I'd have to say the 45-70 also. Very many options with it. A couple of posters liked the Buffalo Classic. I have a couple other, but that is the one I take out the most. It is great fun and very accurate. I put a Redfield peep on it and it shoots better than I can.

[jonp]

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/ClarkM/45-70handirifleSteelinsertcasefillerwithprimerhole155 gr458RBcastbullet400fpsBBgunlike19pounds14pounds.j pg
I got a used 45/70 handi rifle in Sept 1999 for $100 from a guy in a wheel chair at a gunshow.

I have shot Ruger #1 only published loads and doubled them 32 gr Unique 405 gr cast, Quickload thinks that is 88,000 psi. I can tell you the brass flows into the extractor.

I have enjoyed that gun more than the guns that cost me $1,000.
Your going to have to enlighten me on why on god's green earth you feel the need to run a 2X pressure load that is clearly overpressure evidenced by the brass flow.

What are you trying to prove except that your reckless and someone nobody should take any advice on reloading from?

[250kt]

You do NEED a 45/70 if you don't have one yet. Just loaded up some roundball loads, 3 140 grain .457 lead balls on top of bullseye. 25 yards all 3 group in about 2 inches about an inch above aim. This from a 16 inch marlin.

[NavyVet1959]

Of course, the *biggest* caliber in the H&R line is their rifled "shotgun". There's one in .729 caliber (SB2-980) (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/89033) and .615 caliber (SB1-920) (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/89044). They call it their "Ultra Slug Hunter". If you are going to cast your own bullets and wanted the biggest available, this would be the one. Your mold choices might be bit limiting compared to .45-70 though. It's just not that easy to find a .729 caliber bullet mold. Round Ball molds in that size are a bit easier to find though.

[Dakoma]

The Handi rifles are no longer being made and the barrel program is limited to what is in stock they will all soon be gone . I go with a 223 Rem. and a 45-70 Handi , got a extra 223 Rem barrel that will be reamed to 22-250 and already got the extractor for the change but I hear good things about the CVA single shots and want a 22 Hornet ! Love those Handi rifles though !

[Skipper]

I have shot Ruger #1 only published loads and doubled them 32 gr Unique 405 gr cast, Quickload thinks that is 88,000 psi. I can tell you the brass flows into the extractor.

http://florians.org/jslayer/bs.jpg

[NavyVet1959]

http://florians.org/jslayer/bs.jpg

I'm not so certain. I accidentally used Red Dot instead of Longshot in a 10mm M1911 pistol load awhile back and Quickload said that I generated 167K psi. Sure, the brass ruptured, but it wasn't in a fixed breech firearm like the H&R. Plus, the barrel on the 10m M1911 is quite a bit thinner than on an H&R rifle.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?256308-10mm-220gr-cast-load-check&p=3102678&viewfull=1#post3102678

[dougader]

http://florians.org/jslayer/bs.jpg

I can tell you from experience, anything Clark posts is not fiction. In other words, the 45-70 Handi Rifle is a great gun for a great price, and takes a licking and keeps on ticking.

I have been looking at the CVA rifles myself. Wondering about the little 35 Remington, and maybe reaming it out to 358 Winchester for a dedicated cast boolit rifle.

[Clark]

Those coons were killed with one grain of Red Dot and a 145 gr cast button bullet with a steel or Aluminum case filler to get the expansion ratio up and reach the lands. Killing a coon with a body shot that makes the sound of a BB gun and not using a suppressor takes some real doing. The muzzle pressure at bullet escapement must kept below one atmosphere above ambient. Otherwise there will be super sonic gas escapement.
http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/ClarkM/4570insertmadeofAluminiumand332ndairplanedrilltode capprimer7-28-2012.jpg

When i did a max pressure calculation on the 45/70, I calculated the chamber for thick wall hoop stress, the action pin in double shear, and the breech face in section modulus.
The math was jr high algebra, but I had not done it before. My father was chief engineer at paccar for 40 years with dozens of gun patents. He helped me over the phone, as did an old mechanical engineering professor on rec.guns over email.
Some on a forum doubted my calculation so I verified it with a 405 gr cast Unique work up. I had my left palm on the butt. The recoil would probably have broken my collar bone if I had it to my shoulder.

[dougader]

So each round on your Red Dot load has its own internal "suppressor" system. How cool is that?

[Clark]

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/ClarkM/4570RPbrasscrosssectionedlengthwiseandmarkedat1ini ntervalsfromthewebandinsertdiacalculatedwithspread sheet7-20-2012.jpg
Here is the taper I measured and cut on an insert for 45/70 cases.
It would best be done with CNC, but I just follow the little chart I made with the DRO like a human CNC.
I use Loctite to hold it in place. A bigger flash hole than decapping pin is a good idea. The hole gets too dirty to use the same drill.

If you catch up to two coons, a quiet gun will help getting the second one. The first one will break dance and the second one goes up a tree to watch. And even if it is legal to shoot at your house, the neighbors can still hear the shooting at your chicken coop in the middle of the night, if the gun is loud. A 22 CB short with 0.45 gr Powder in a rifle is BB gun quiet, but you have to hit the coon in the brain. That is hard to do even a few feet away if they are moving.

[Catshooter]

You boys who are kicking Clark must not have met him before.

He enjoys testing, sometimes to destruction all sorts of firearms.

He knows exactly what he is doing so relax.

His information is very interesting to some of us.


Cat

[Catshooter]

The biggest Handi rifle I have played with is one of their 20 gauge USHs. Mag Tec full length brass shells, three .646 round balls (392 grains each) and about 1100 feet. Kinda hard to chrono with three projectiles across the screens.

Took the USH barrel and fitted it to an rifle action, not shotgun.

The load prints lovely little 1.25/1.5 inch triangles at 25 yards, three inchers at 50 and puts a huge smile on the owners face every time he lights it off.


Cat

[Lonegun1894]

I agree. I may not have an interest in trying to see just where that fine line lies anymore, but have been there, and it is interesting and educational. Also helps that I think Clark knows more about this than I do.

[THerbert]

I love my 500 S&W. The Lee 440 gr. boolit, 13 gr. of Trailboss, and it's good out to 100 yards and as accurate as you are. No recoil to speak of, and the way prices are right now, cheaper to shoot than a .22LR.

[NavyVet1959]

I love my 500 S&W. The Lee 440 gr. boolit, 13 gr. of Trailboss, and it's good out to 100 yards and as accurate as you are. No recoil to speak of, and the way prices are right now, cheaper to shoot than a .22LR.

I was at Wal-mart today and checked the ammo cabinet. Surprisingly, they had about 20 or so boxes of .22LR -- Remington Thunderbolt. It was $2.37 per 50 round box. Limit of 3 boxes. Unless I recover my lead, it's difficult for me to reload any other caliber that cheaply -- about $2.50-2.60 is the cheapest I can reload certain calibers. The last .22LR ammo I bought was around $7-8 per 500-round brick, so I decided to wait and see if it goes back down and let someone else who really needs it buy it at that price. They'll probably think they're getting a good deal compared to what some people are charging these days. :(

[THerbert]

I was at Wal-mart today and checked the ammo cabinet. Surprisingly, they had about 20 or so boxes of .22LR -- Remington Thunderbolt. It was $2.37 per 50 round box. Limit of 3 boxes. Unless I recover my lead, it's difficult for me to reload any other caliber that cheaply -- about $2.50-2.60 is the cheapest I can reload certain calibers. The last .22LR ammo I bought was around $7-8 per 500-round brick, so I decided to wait and see if it goes back down and let someone else who really needs it buy it at that price. They'll probably think they're getting a good deal compared to what some people are charging these days. :(

I never go to Wal-Mart. The people I see in the local one scare me! I haven't bought any .22 since Christmas before last, and it was $0.10 per round. From what I understand from some of my friends, it's still quite scarce around here. I'm still working on a batch of what seems to be Lyman #2 alloy that I bought from a scrap yard in 1# Lyman-stamped ingots for $1/lb. I haven't called my supplier recently to find out what scrap lead costs these days.

[cajun shooter]

I don't know where the members who are stating that the 444 brass and ammo is easier to find live but that is not true in the Southern and western states I have been in the last 10 years. I have walked into rural country stores and they have 45-70 on the shelf. You may purchase the brass all day long for about .50 a case and the bullet selection is very full of choices.
Every shooter needs at least one 45-70 in the type of action he prefers. I have two H&R BC rifles that are very accurate and will always be in my home. Later David

[rfd]

it's too bad that h&r has closed. they were the only source for a really good s/s rifle (buffalo classic) at a cheap $400 price tag that's a great introduction into bpcr. dunno of any other similar s/s rifle in that under $500 range to get started in bpcr. too bad.

[tdoyka]

I don't know where the members who are stating that the 444 brass and ammo is easier to find live but that is not true in the Southern and western states I have been in the last 10 years. I have walked into rural country stores and they have 45-70 on the shelf. You may purchase the brass all day long for about .50 a case and the bullet selection is very full of choices.
Every shooter needs at least one 45-70 in the type of action he prefers. I have two H&R BC rifles that are very accurate and will always be in my home. Later David

in PA, the local gun store usually has 444 factory ammo. i reload, so i don't buy factory stuff. usually before deer season hornady and remington comes out with brass for the triple 4. i own a 45-70 handi-rifle, but i rarely use it. for cast boolits, the 444 can go from 135gr round nose to 405gr wfn.

[BAGTIC]

"Lifetime guarantee"? Whose life, yours or H&R's. How much is a guarantee from a company that no longer exists worth?

[dougader]

I'd love to see one of the CVA rifles offered in 480 Ruger.

[Four-Sixty]

Get em while you can!

I put up a WTB add for a 30-30 barrel and got one offer at about $300.

So, I bought the last handi 45-70 on clearance at Academy today for $240.

I was looking for a 500 S&W, but saw they were going for $500 on Gunbroker!

[Four-Sixty]

Buds also "fixed" their price on the cva 35 remington. They are not cheap anymore.

[gpidaho]

So glad I bought the 35rem 444 Marlin combo last year from Bud's. I think I paid $305 delivered for it. Bought it for the 35 barrel but find myself shooting the 444 the most. Sorry you didn't find the 30-30 you were looking for Chris, and it is a shame that the Handi's are being dropped from production. I hope a custom barrel maker steps in to fill the void. GP

[BAGTIC]

Have you ever considered that you might scare the people who see you in Walmart?

[BKS]

I have 2 45-70 Handi Rifle, just bought a 500S&W and a 12 gauge Ultra Slug Hunter.
I hate that they closed too. I missed a 444 new in the boxtoday for 165.00.

[Texantothecore]

I am not at all sure that we have heard the last from them. They sold a lot of rifles and were running in the black.

[saleen322]

A 45/70 is a fine big bore choice. Did not realize the little rifles were no longer made.

[John Taylor]

I have played around with several 45-70s over the years and most are great. A while back I picked up a bunch of 28 gauge brass and sense this is about big bores I thought I would talk about one I have in the works. The action is an old one and I don't think there is a name on it. The measurement on the brass as to what size bullet it will hold is .590". So with what is called reverse engineering, start with the bullet size and make a barrel to fit. The chamber will be the standard 28 gauge which will leave a tapered throat. Barrel bore is close to a .577 Snider, brass is a bit longer but no bottle neck. Lately I'm thinking recoil reducer and thick recoil pad. This will be for black powder only.

[Jedman]

For those that like to make oddball but useful guns,Myself and another friend took a early H& R 58 cal. Huntsman muzzleloader that is a break action just like a handi rifle. I bored a 24 ga. chamber in the barrel with a small boring bar and used a large taper pin reamer to create the leade into the rifling. using cheap Cheddite or Fiocchi 24 ga. plastic shotgun hulls he loads mostly Unique powder and a plastic wad with a shotcup and a 54 cal. lead round ball and roll crimped.
The gun gun is quite accurate about 2 MOA and will kill deer and hogs just fine. It can be loaded cheaply with RB's or a short 58 cal. bullet and if you toss the cases after one loading your only out about .12 ea. so no loading dies needed. It's a real gun to play with and can be used for hunting as well.

Jedman

[John Taylor]

For those that like to make oddball but useful guns,Myself and another friend took a early H& R 58 cal. Huntsman muzzleloader that is a break action just like a handi rifle. I bored a 24 ga. chamber in the barrel with a small boring bar and used a large taper pin reamer to create the leade into the rifling. using cheap Cheddite or Fiocchi 24 ga. plastic shotgun hulls he loads mostly Unique powder and a plastic wad with a shotcup and a 54 cal. lead round ball and roll crimped.
The gun gun is quite accurate about 2 MOA and will kill deer and hogs just fine. It can be loaded cheaply with RB's or a short 58 cal. bullet and if you toss the cases after one loading your only out about .12 ea. so no loading dies needed. It's a real gun to play with and can be used for hunting as well.

Jedman
Did you bush the firing pin? as I remember the muzzle loader had a firing pin for percussion caps.

[Jedman]

No John, I can't remember if this frame had the really large diameter pin or the standard ?
The shotgun hulls come pre primed and they go bang every time. I found a extractor from a old singe shot shotgun that had a 1/4" round post instead of the square style H&R now uses and drilled a 1/4" hole thru the underlug and just added a stiff coil spring in front to push the fired shell out with a small roll pin to limit the extractor to about 3/16" travel and it works great.
The barrel slugged at approx. .578 so 58 cal. RB's were a loose fit, the plastic wad with the 54 cal seems to work good, we wanted to try a short length hollow based mini ball because of the slow twist but never found one the right size.
I like the gun so much that when I find one for sale reasonable I will make one for myself.
The neat thing with H&R's is they have made so many differs styles of butt stocks and for ends that you can make the gun look anyway you like with easy to find parts and if you want the barrel much shorter I don't think it would hurt a thing as your only burning 15-20 grs. of shotgun powder .

Jedman

[John Taylor]

No John, I can't remember if this frame had the really large diameter pin or the standard ?
The shotgun hulls come pre primed and they go bang every time. I found a extractor from a old singe shot shotgun that had a 1/4" round post instead of the square style H&R now uses and drilled a 1/4" hole thru the underlug and just added a stiff coil spring in front to push the fired shell out with a small roll pin to limit the extractor to about 3/16" travel and it works great.
The barrel slugged at approx. .578 so 58 cal. RB's were a loose fit, the plastic wad with the 54 cal seems to work good, we wanted to try a short length hollow based mini ball because of the slow twist but never found one the right size.
I like the gun so much that when I find one for sale reasonable I will make one for myself.
The neat thing with H&R's is they have made so many differs styles of butt stocks and for ends that you can make the gun look anyway you like with easy to find parts and if you want the barrel much shorter I don't think it would hurt a thing as your only burning 15-20 grs. of shotgun powder .

Jedman
The early ones had a threaded in breach plug, the later ones had a slip in breach plug with a "O" ring. You might be better off taking one of the later shotguns and putting a 58 caliber barrel on it. Jim Carpenter (208-245-3693 ) could give you a good price on a barrel blank and you could ask for any twist within reason.