Using crossed sticks. Where to support the barrel?

[BCRider]

I'm in the process of making up some crossed sticks to use with my single shots in conjunction with a three legged stool. So far when shooting for load accuracy testing from a bench I've supported the gun at the forward end of the fore stock. So roughly 1/4 to 1/3 of the way out from the receiver. Is there a better way?

I like the way it balances at that point but I'm wiling to change if need be. I know it's about barrel harmonics too but it seemed to make sense to support it where my hand would normally be.

Here's what I've got so far. More pictures as they occur. My big stumbling block at the moment is trying to figure out how to make some nice ferrules for the feet to support the spikes from splitting the wood. The wood being black walnut.

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[Don McDowell]

Usually about 4 inches back from the muzzle, or right in front of the forearm are two good spots. You can do a bit of messing to find just the right spot, but chances are it won't be far from those two places. You will get less wobble and wiggle the further out on the barrel.

[bigted]

as Don mentions ... usually just behind the muzzle is the best one and to find it do as follows;

- take a wooden hammer, plastic hammer, or any kind of soft hammer that will give a good solid rap on the barrel without marring the blue.

- hold the rifle at the wrist area and allow it to hang down without touching you or anything else [may need to stand on a chair to keep it off the floor].

- now begin to rap on the barrel just behind the end of the forend wood and continue to rap up the barrel[down when the rifle is hanging from your other hand].

- feel with the rifle holding hand the vibration thru the rifle as you tap the barrel with your hammer.

- you will notice a couple places where there is no vibration and the one closest to the muzzle will prolly be the lest amount of vibration thru the rifle ... usually there will be a complete lack of vibration on the one closest to the muzzle.

- these null points are the barrel nodes that will be your best places to rest your rifle on in any position as the vibration from firing will effect the POA and the boolit as it leaves the barrel the least amount.

[country gent]

A neat test to prove this is find the dead spot or node on the barrel near the muzzle as Big Ted suggests. and shoot a couple groups resting there, then move it forward 2" for a couple groups and then back 3" for a couple groups. Watch not only group size but Point of impact to the sight setting changes. May be interesting information to see.

[Artful]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?83621-Shooting-off-cross-sticks

[M-Tecs]

Finding the nodes

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?115223-Vibration-nodes-and-cross-sticks

http://www.ozfclass.com/articles/1/psm_2005_03.html

[BCRider]

Excellent information as always. You guys and this forum are GREAT! ! ! !

I'll have the sticks finished and ready for testing by this weekend or early next week. I'll let you know what I find.

[Shawrco]

Not sure what diameter your sticks are but some of the guys where I shoot have used shotgun shell brass for ferrules with primers removed for spikes to protrude from.

[country gent]

Ive used copper tubing end caps in the appropriate size for ferreles. LAy out and drill a snug fitting hole for the spike you want and press in place then epoxy to the wood rod. Polish up bright and makes great looking ends.

[rfd]

always up front, near the muzzle and Never Ever back at the fore stock, because the arc of sight movement will always be less with a forward barrel support.

as to the 'harmonic node' thing, most will find 4" to 6" behind the muzzle is a dead spot. i mark my barrels with small piece blue painters tape, and that's where the barrel rests on the x-stykz.

x-stykz are easy to make - a 6' to 8' length of 1x2 red oak, cut in half, a pair of large nails with their heads lopped off and pounded/epoxied into the pre-drilled stick ends, drill holes up the sticks sides, add in a 1/4" to 3/8" bolt 'n' nut, two strips of leather or thick felt to protect the rifle's barrel. bench stykx are easy to make, as well.

http://i.imgur.com/NnArgDd.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/pc1bSIP.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/SHOPibn.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/4IQJ47p.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Q1aMgCz.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/X1l2jax.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/bcdgMDG.jpg

[Don McDowell]

Never Ever back at the fore stock,
:grin: Don't tell my wife and her rifle that, they'll both laugh your butt right off the scoreboard..

[rfd]

:grin: Don't tell my wife and her rifle that, they'll both laugh your butt right off the scoreboard..

it's all good, to each their own, even if it hurts something. :grin:

[Don McDowell]

Yessir. Spend the time to find what works for a shooter and their rifle.

[country gent]

Thats the best way is to spend a day shooting groups and see what works for you. Start with a mark just behind the front sight around 3" back and shoot a group. move the mark forward 2-3" with each group keeping detailed notes. work back to forend and look over notes see where best group was shot and shoot groups at 1/2 way popint each side of that. WHen the "sweet" spot is found mark it. I use a red piece of vinal under electrical tape use a hole punch and punch 2 1/8" holes at the width you want for roughly 3 flats or there abouts and exacto knife to connect 2 holes edges and cut a small piece of the red vinal and put over the slot. center this with the red line on location and wrap tape smoothly and evenly around barrel the red line is where you want to be the tape last a long time and is easily removeable to change or if you want to sell.

[kokomokid]

I like 4" from the muzzle for steadiest hold and near dead spot. Watched Vance Ballew win the Texas state match with cross sticks at the fore end or very close!

[waksupi]

Once the sweet spot is found, some put a strip of white adhesive tape on the bottom of the barrel to mark it.

[Gunlaker]

There are some really good shooters who rest in front of the forearm. I find the most dead spot on the barrel. Usually. The more important thing, IMHO, is to have the recoil come straight back at whatever distance you are shooting. When you break the shot you don't want the rifle jumping up off of the sticks. If it does then it probably doesn't help to be on a null spot.

Chris.

[BCRider]

Lots more good information. I'll be testing to see where the nodes are and working up the loads.

And assuming I can find the two spots, one just back from the muzzle and one around the front end of the fore stock, I'll try both from the sticks when they are done. I know I'll prefer the one near the receiver simply for the balance it'll lend to the setup. But if it's simply a case of working into the front location I can do that too.

I'm also thinking that if I find the rear location works for me that I might just make up a new fore stock with a locating saddle and side ridges for the stock to key/locate the support strap that I want to use in lieu of just padding the cross arms. Might as well make it something more permanent than sticking patches or tape on the barrel. As you all mention the oil and solvents will quickly make a real mess of those.

And if I end up with using the front node perhaps a couple of braided leather or nice vintage looking braided cord turk's head knots as locating bands that wrap tightly around the barrel for seating it into the stirrup of the crossed sticks. Again instead of using anything with glue or adhesive that will get all goopy from the oil.

[Chill Wills]

it's all good, to each their own, even if it hurts something. :grin:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Don McDowell http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=3244217#post3244217)
:grin: Don't tell my wife and her rifle that, they'll both laugh your butt right off the scoreboard..


- - - - - - - - - - -
In my own experience I have found that putting the barrel in the cross sticks just ahead of the forearm stock works the best for me. There are pluses and minuses for both muzzle and forearm locations. I have used both and for my body style and ability I have found what works best for me. I have rock steady hold and it works fine.

Yes, advocates of resting at the muzzle conclude they can hold the rifle on target better and for them I am sure it is true. The draw back with this when shooting prone is the rifleman has a much bigger job keeping their body weight on (or off) the rifle the same for every shot compared with holding in the middle.
I watch people shoot at all the matches I attend. School is in session. Regardless of muzzle or forearm hold, I see poor shooters pulling down on the trigger hand by varying amounts. They have no idea they are doing it. The result is high/low on the target. Then we hear the followup that "this new load( or bullet) shot so well when I tested it". -No doubt from the bench.
While shooting prone, small differences in grip, or down pressure from either hand, or mounting the rifle butt on your shoulder with slightly different back pressure (pull) and you will again see high/low impacts on the target.

One other thing to keep in mind is, -seeing the bullet to the target through the sights - known as 'follow through', is not over rated. And, as Chris said, having your rifle recoil back and not jump in the sticks is a sign of holding correctly.
This, in my humble opinion, is by far the greater factor rather than the choice of using the close or far node.

Just my 2 cents....

[Gunlaker]

Michael I have stopped shooting my BPCR rifles from the bench at all in the last year or two. I've found exactly what you describe shooting prone. I have to be really careful not to pull down on the trigger hand, and not to put undue cheek pressure on the buttstock. I think if you are careful with technique there isn't a very big difference in accuracy with bench vs. prone, unless you really into perfecting your bench technique which I'm not sure is a good use of time. ( I do shoot my schuetzen rifles from the bench and it's astounding how even a subtle mishandling of a bench rifle can make an excellent load look bad.). The other thing that is interesting is that the chonograph will also tell you if your hold is not so consistent.

Chris.

[BCRider]

This whole issue of balance vs smaller shake risk likely goes along the line of 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.

Of course a muzzle end support will result in any shake at the butt plate being a smaller angle. But as mentioned it also reflects in the shooter's ability to hold the rifle the same way each time. And for a lot of us I suspect that a middle support balances more easily and allows the shooter to hold consistently with more ease. The greater consistency countering the ability of less angle of shake.

Of course if we can do BOTH together that would make things that much better. But clearly from those with good results in both camps it's either not as big an issue as some think or the pluses and minuses cancel out.

I'll try both and report.

For some matches I don't need to swing my aim. For others I do. So my first inclination is to go with the middle of the rifle node support so I can swing more easily without the need to move my stool much or upsetting my upper body posture by as much.

Hey rfd! I wanted to thank you for the pictures of your sticks. I particularly like your table version and how it folds up so nicely. I may just wind up paying you the complement of copying it. With credit to you if I get any compliments of my own. Thanks!

[Don McDowell]

To further add to the discussion about steadiness etc. One thing that is an absolute must with the crossticks it making sure the height with the gun mounted is just right. By this I mean whether you are sitting or prone, the gun must rest easily with the sights aligned on the target, without the shooter having to raise or tilt your head , and not be pushing down on the stock with your cheek.
When shooting from the sitting position you want to be arranged so that you rest both elbows on your knees, and you can get somewhat locked in and be nearly as solid as shooting from prone.
When Jimbo Terry is helping his shooter get settled behind the sticks, he always says " don't settle", in other words if the position isn't comfortable with a full grip and comfortable grip on you gun and the trigger in easy reach, you're not set yet.
Also be aware that your sticks may settle during a relay especially in soft ground. So if you feel yourself having to readjust your gun hand and the like, you will do well to reset your sticks.
And again you should see the orange ball of flame thru your sight each and everytime the gun goes off, and you will if you are properly positioned.

[country gent]

I am also still fairly new to shooting off of cross sticks and learning a little more everytime. Getting the hieght right and a natural point of aim where you can relax down and the rifle just hangs there on the target is very important. Using any real muscle induces shakes and wobbles inhibits the guns recoil and follow thru. Learning to hold the gun and relax is a odd concept to alot but it works. I let the wieght of the rifle rest in the sticks, grip the wrist comfortably and with a medium grip force, the off hand holds just in front of the toe of the stock elbow on my knees and setting the buttplate in my shoulder the same way and place everytime. A very light cheek pressure on the comb and Both elbows are on my knees. Everything is bone supported not alot of muscle needed. Experiment with your sticks and rifle some and see what you need to make it work. One trick is to get in position sighted on target and close eyes for a short period and open see where the sights are pointed. If not on the target to much muscle is being used.

[BCRider]

Don and CG, you're reading my own mind. I've got this idea I want to work with where my support hand to the toe of the stock and my trigger hand forearms cross over and press against each other to lock my arms to my knees and my elbows will be resting on the bone just behind the kneecap. In my trials with this setup the position seems very stable and the sight picture very steady. And for old bodies that "don't bend that way" anymore it's pretty easy to set into and get up from. But best of all crossing my arms and leaning on my knees then holding the rifle creates a lot of triangles for front to back and side to side that lock into what seems to be a very stable posture.

Oddly enough this idea of mine which I figured would be well known does not seem to be as well known as I'd expect. If it works I'll post pictures of the position with the stool and sticks. If it doesn't I'm going to the corner and sulk.... :D

[Don McDowell]

Don't look for anything great shooting off of a stool, while you can shoot alright that way, sitting on the ground (on a pad of some sort) works much better.

[BCRider]

Not for this body. I tried it and could not hold the position for any length of time at all without starting to shake a lot. And THAT isn't any good either. I'm afraid that I just don't bend that way any longer.

I tried some other kneeling and semi cross legged positions but they were either not at all stable or I just could not hold them for long.

I did mock up the position with some scrap strips and a camp stool I have here and using the position I described. I had very little trouble holding the sights solidly on a distant tree limb I could see out my window. And best of all it was a comfortable position which I can hold consistently for a good long time.

[rfd]

"stool" of sorts for me, too.

in terms of a steady hold on target, best shooting position off x-styx will be prone, next best is sitting. i can't do prone at all, too uncomfortable with back and neck issues. sitting is better, but still not so good on the back. a small, low stool works best for me and affords me better accuracy as it's just lots better for my ailing back, thank you very much. with the barrel on the x-styx about 6" proud of the muzzle. :cool:

[Don McDowell]

Not for this body. I tried it and could not hold the position for any length of time at all without starting to shake a lot. And THAT isn't any good either. I'm afraid that I just don't bend that way any longer.
.

It's all about muscle training. Also keep in mind that if you at some point decide to enter into the NRA competitions, stools aren't allowed.

[BCRider]

It's all about muscle training.

I agree. But in my case I'm one of those folks that has NEVER been able to sit cross legged for any length of time at all. It was pretty well excruciatingly at the maximum tolerance of my limbs and lower back even when I was in my teens. I've always been active, although I'm not a sports nut, so it's not like I'm not reasonably flexible. But there's just something about sitting cross legged or even legs out in front on the ground that doesn't work with me.

The events I'll be shooting in are mostly the side matches for the cowboy action shoots here in the North West. There is no NRA events of that sort up this way. Although that doesn't mean I would not be able to drive down into Washington state for such a match. Just need to get the firearms papers in order to do so. If I get to that point I'll have to play around with options I guess.

How many shots in a string of fire at a typical NRA match? And is prone an option at these matches? I prefer prone but that didn't work out well on the unmowed fields used by the local cowboy meets. It was just a sheet of green once I laid myself down... :D Hence the need to come up with a seat and sticks.

[Don McDowell]

The shots in a string of fire depends on the match, can go anywhere from 5-10 or 15 for score plus sighters. Prone is an option for everything except the 2 and 300 yd targets in the position matches, and the chickens in sillouette.

[country gent]

I also shoot off of a stool now, not because I cant sit on the ground but because I cant get back up off the ground easily. Another little trick to shooting sitting is to "open" your pants and belt up so your not in a bind pinching off blood flow and creating a bigger "pulse". It does help when your down and elbows are on your knees.

[BCRider]

Instead of a stool is a sitting "pad" allowable in the NRA events? I tried sitting on the floor in the same position I see others using. And even with NO belt my middle just won't let me bend enough that I can stay comfortably in that position for long. Things get all shakey and that ain't good. However I played with some firm foam rubber I have here from past projects. A pad of about 6 inches tall sets me up so that I can sit with legs forward (cross legged still isn't going to happen :D) and knees up at a little angle in a way that is pretty comfy. From that posture I could easily manage a string of fire that takes 5 to 8 minutes. So as long as I don't need to set up on ground which is sloped back I would be good.

[Don McDowell]

Yes you can use a sitting pad.

[BCRider]

Then I'M GOOD TO GO!! ! ! :D

For around here I'll stick with my stool. But it's nice to know the options if I do venture south of the 49th to take part in a match in the future. Thanks Don. I'm working on my shooting sticks and should have pictures in the next day of them done. At least I'd BETTER since the match I want to use them for is this coming weekend.... which, once again, means I'm left with precious little practice time between now and then even just for sighting in at the 300 yard distance we'll be using.

[Don McDowell]

good luck at your upcoming match.

[country gent]

I used one of the bath tub stools last summer here. Its pretty good and all 4 leggs are adjustable for hieght. Has a decenct wieght limit and light and easy yo handle. Its working for me so far.

[Knarley]

O.K.,
You guys have confused me again. Please bear with me here.
When I was setting up a varmint rig, I had read that the best place to place a bi-pod was on the forestock. Putting one of those clamp on units on the barrel would cause tension on the barrel, affecting accuracy.
Now, reading this thread, you are saying the best spot to rest the gun is ON the barrel. :veryconfu
Why wouldn't the forestock be the place? If not, why is it there?

I'll go back to my corner now.....................
Knarley

[rfd]

because i'd wanna free float the barrel and not stick anything on it to mess with barrel harmonics.

[Knarley]

because i'd wanna free float the barrel and not stick anything on it to mess with barrel harmonics.

What if the barrel was bedded?

[rfd]

i assume all of this is with best/extreme accuracy in mind for long distance marks? if so, same reasoning - don't wanna mess with barrel harmonics unless i had to.

[Knarley]

I must be missing some thing here. How would using the forestock mess with harmonics?

[rfd]

i'll guess that yer comparing a scoped varmint/sniper rifle with a 19th century s/s iron sight rifle?

if so, for me, forearm bipod for the scoped sniper and barrel rest for the s/s because it's iron sighted and i'd get a steadier aim with the muzzle laying on the x-stykz.

[Knarley]

i'll guess that yer comparing a scoped varmint/sniper rifle with a 19th century s/s iron sight rifle?

if so, for me, forearm bipod for the scoped sniper and barrel rest for the s/s because it's iron sighted and i'd get a steadier aim with the muzzle laying on the x-stykz.

Yea, it IS kinda like comparing apples to oranges. I was just thinking tension on the barrel was the deal.
I have always used the forestock, figured thats why it was there. I'll have to give this "new" info a try.
Thanks for explaining.
Knarley

[rfd]

don't worry, knarley - expect to get at least 5 posts as to why it should be the opposite. :)

it's all good as long as consistent accuracy is realized.

[Knarley]

I was told when I started loading BP catrages, to forget what I knew about loading smokeless.
I guess shooting them is the same thing, to a point. Still gotta be safe.

Knarley

[rfd]

it's all a journey of sorts, and for some it's the journey that's almost as good as the destination. ;)

[BCRider]

Knarley, on the old single shot rifles like rolling blocks and 1885's the fore stock is just a small piece of wood attached to the barrel. It's not connected back to the shoulder stock. So it's not really the same thing as your full length stock at all. Even with a bedded barrel the full length stock will produce a totally different situation. With these single shots when we hold the fore stock as a result we're really just holding onto the barrel. So when we support half or more of the rifle's weight it matters both to the harmonics as well as any slight flex in the barrel.

In the case of fully floated barrels the front end of the one piece stocks forms a place to support the receiver through the stock.

[Geezer in NH]

I used strapping for my cross sticks. My GM false muzzled ML 50 call had the front rest for the bench 4 inches back from the muzzle. I won many matches many at FT TY and many NMLRA territorial's with my under hammer rifle.

For the buffalo matches the same rest was pushed against the back of the sticks in a sitting position. They were almost as solid as the bench. Barrel length was 36 inches.

Watching the Wild West Tech. show even my son laughed at supporting the sticks at the forend. Talk about unstable an offhand shot would have worked as well.

Folks who say don't support the barrel have NEVER tried it, thy say it will shoot high. Well duh!! We always adjust the sights to hit where seen!!! WTH!!

At 200 yards I could shoot off sticks within 2 inches of off bench.

[rbertalotto]

No one brought up the talcum powder trick to find the null of the barrel? Works much better on an octagon barrel with a flat top.

A line of powder on the barrel. Support very near the muzzle and fire. The powder will vibrate and leave a line where the null is......

Or so I've been told....:D

[country gent]

If you find the dead spot in the ocilations it is a mute point. One plus to near muzzle is weight is between sticks and shoulder helping to steady everything up more solid at least for me. Positioninhg at a dead point and consistent hold follow thru helps alot.

[Blackwater]

All the theories and knowledge of how guns work is a good basis for initiating our experimentation, but there'll always be only ONE way to know where to rest a gun's barrel on cross-sticks, or any other type of rest, and that's to go try it and see. All the theory in the world isn't worth a plugged nickle unless and until it's PROVEN in the field or on the range. Theories are ONLY for helping us to understand the most likely areas that tend to promise the results we want. It is NOT the actualization of it. Using theory only to answer these questions is like saying all that's necessary in the scientific method is just developing a theory, and we can quit right there. No need to go through the long and arduous steps to test it out and come to conclusions. Just assume up front that it's gonna' work, and let 'er go at that.

That's how we've come to "think" nowadays, and while there's no doubt that theories ARE of inestimible value oftentimes, we CANNOT just leave it at that and fail to PROVE it in actual practice. Thinking is fine, but DOING beats thoughts all to heckengone. Always has. Always will. That this is harder now in our hurried and harried lives doesn't alter that fact a whit, no matter how badly and understandably we'd like it to. Go shoot the gun and see for yourself what and how much difference it makes. In reality, that's the ONLY answer you'll get that will be of real use to you in the long run. It does take some time, but aren't you going to spend that time doing something? Why not make it pay off really well?

[Don McDowell]

One of the benefits of placing the stick immediately in front of the forearm, is being able to know the stick aren't leaning in or out which can be a problem when resting out towards the muzzle. If the sticks start to lean your shots will start going high or low.
Getting the sticks adjusted to just the right height will play as big if not bigger role in where the barrel rests on them.

[rfd]

muzzle or forearm, there are pluses and minuses for each. this is a somewhat subjective matter.

blackwater nailed it - like most things in life, doing and seeing for yerself beats the opinions and possible bs of others.

[Don McDowell]

Yup, seeing a fella get his name on the Castle Trophy , plus some other national level wins, will get your attention a bunch quicker than some guy with a limited amount of post on an internet forum, and no verifiable experience..
Seperating the wheat from the chaf is the big challenge in these threads, but doing that is expedited by trying the suggestions presented.

[Don McDowell]

I must be missing some thing here. How would using the forestock mess with harmonics?

It won't, but depending on the shape of the stock etc, getting the gun to laydown and go to sleep is a bigger problem when resting on the forestock than any given point on the barrel.

[BCRider]

For anyone wondering the sticks got put on hold when I realized I would not have them ready for the match from two weeks back. Following the match my new milling machine arrived. And that got me thinking about the front sight mount with bubble level I wanted to make. Which is in another thread.

But I'm back onto the sticks again now and hope to have pictures of the sticks completed in the next couple of days. In the meantime here's a couple of teaser pictures.

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