Cordite .303, shoot or not?

[tbx-4]

I have some 1949 Radway Green .303 and some Iraqi .303 dated '58, '66 & 67.
It's all cordite loaded with the the big copper berdan primers... corrosive to say the least.

I thought about shooting it but concerned about hang-fires and corrosion.

I'm thinking of pulling it down and reloading the bullets in boxer primed brass (HPX).

If I reload the bullets... what to do with the cordite?

Thoughts?

[nicholst55]

I burned the cordite from some old milsurp .303 that I pulled down -RG and Kynoch. Interestingly, one brand of ammo (can't recall which) had undersized bullets in it - around .306", IIRC.

[303Guy]

Cordite can be used to play tricks on people, like pushing a stick into the end of someone's cigarette.:twisted: Just don't push a long one in - that would cause injury. In fact, don't do it at all! :kidding:

I did once put match stick heads into someone's unlit pipe. It produced a huge mushroom cloud when he lit it! :mrgreen:

[DW475]

That is quite entertaining 303Guy!

[DR Owl Creek]

Cordite can be used to play tricks on people, like pushing a stick into the end of someone's cigarette.:twisted: Just don't push a long one in - that would cause injury. In fact, don't do it at all! :kidding:

I did once put match stick heads into someone's unlit pipe. It produced a huge mushroom cloud when he lit it! :mrgreen:


Thanks for the tip!


Dave

[Multigunner]

Sticks of cordite laid onto a strip of masking tape with ends over lapping can be used as a fuse for fireworks.

Supposedly you can use sticks of cordite as a substitute for matches but I've not tried this yet.

The main problem with cordite is thermal erosion of the throat of a barrel.
The over the charge card wad cuts down erosion a bit, but using cordite loads in a very good barrel will turn it into a mediocre barrel after as little as 200 rounds.
If you have a .303 rifle that handles boat tail bullets well, even a few hundred rounds of cordite can ruin the throat enough to cause boat tail bullets to keyhole at less than 200 yards. EGB Reynolds wrote about this in testing the use of Mk8z ammo in No.4 rifles during WW2.
Contrary to propular beliefs the British used enough M7z and Mk8z Nitro-Cellulose loaded ammo that many Enfields may have never had cordite used in them, those barrels that never had cordite used in them usually still have good throats.
Other rifles rebarreled before being put in storage would have excellent bores that cordite can ruin very quickly.
Use of cordite will turn a 2MOA rifle into a 4-6MOA rifle after awhile, with groups when using modern ammo often being even worse with keyholing likely.
On the other hand if cordite rounds are used exclusively accuracy drops off more slowly.
The Mk7 bullets bump up well with the heat and shock of ignition of cordite, off setting the effects of erosion, and the over the charge card greatly reduces blowby. Theres no card wad in Mk7z or Mk8z.
In tests using Mk7 with the card wad removed completely ruined accuracy within 1500-2000 rounds. They had tried this because the card wad in use at the time chipped wooden propellors and damaged doped fabric when used in synchronized guns of WW1 aircraft. They then developed a wad of strawboard that disintegrated on leaving the muzzle. The RAF contracted for their own specially marked supplies of .303 from 1918 onwards.

[Multigunner]

PS to the above.
Hangfires can be extremely dangerous, especially hangfires with POF manufactured ammo. There have been severe injuries due to spontaneous ignition of a supposedly dud cartridge when the shooter opens the bolt up to several minutes after the misfire.

On opening up some dud cordite ammo I found the ends of the sticks nearest the flash hole fused together like a burnt nylon rope end. The sticks were dark brown and greasy to the touch. These would barely burn if lit with a lighter.

As cordite degrades it turns from a light off white like sphagetti through various shades of tan orange or brown. The darker the more degraded.
Cordite exposed to temperatures of 125 degrees F for long periods of time sweat nitro glycerine that gathers in the case and can cause detonations.
Temperatures that high at mid day are common in most of Iraq and on the Indian Northwest frontier where a lot of the surplus .303 ammo was once stored for decades.
Similar propellant thermal breakdown of Nobel solenite (also high nitro at 60%) powders destroyed a number of Italian carcano rifles when degraded ammo was imported from Egypt in the 1960's.

Its just not a good idea to risk damaging a good rifle by using ammo that could easily be defective.

I only use milsurp ammo, even of much more recent production, as a source for hand load components.

[bouncer50]

Cordite can be used to play tricks on people, like pushing a stick into the end of someone's cigarette.:twisted: Just don't push a long one in - that would cause injury. In fact, don't do it at all! :kidding:

I did once put match stick heads into someone's unlit pipe. It produced a huge mushroom cloud when he lit it! :mrgreen: My friend and i years back used to go in a bar for a few drinks. We would put some black powder in a ash tray and then sit back and watch someone put a cigarette out and watch the big puff of smoke and the guy yelling what the hell is going on. We did that a few time till we got caught.:grin:

[leebuilder]

It can be very dangerous so recycle what you can.
cordite in smokes is to funny, love the smell of burnt cordite.

[Multigunner]

Malingerers would put a few sticks of cordite under their tongue so that at sick call the nitro glycerine acted as a heart stimulant to cause a rapid thready heart beat and pale complexion with profuse sweating. If caught they got a flogging or worse I suspect.

[Multigunner]

Avoid smelling burnt cordite. The nitrious acid fumes of burnt cordite were a major cause of death for seaman in the water after a warship went down due to a magazine explosion.
The fumes stayed low on the water so those who couldn't get to a life boat quickly choked on the fumes or died later from lung damage.

Gun turrets had to be pressurized with fresh air so the fumes didn't escape when the breech was opened. Also Cordite creates Carbon Monoxcide rather than CO2 so its a longer lasting suffocation risk in inclosed spaces.

Remember Cordite fires can not be quenched by water and make their own oxygen so its very difficult to stop a cordite fire and magazine explosions were more common than with other propellants.

[Scharfschuetze]

I keep an Ausi Lithgow SMLE, circa 1941, just for Cordite rounds and I have shot close to two thousand or more British, Greek and Iraqi rounds through it over the years without any noticeable loss in accuracy. I just got back from the annual family shoot-a-thon in Wyoming and surprised everyone by hitting the 200, 300, 600 and 800 yard gongs with virtually every shot over a day of shooting. The ammo, I.S.A.A. Mk 7 made in 1941, tracks perfectly with the range settings on the sight and all rounds but one fired without any sign of a hang fire. If there is any damage to the barrel, it isn't noticeable on targets. The rifle has been well worth the $90 dollars that I spent on it.

Your results may vary; but with a dedicated Cordite rifle, I have no qualms in shooting surplus Mk 7 ammo. Of course I only shoot reloaded cast boolit rounds through my more collectible Enfields.

I might add that the ammo named above chronographs at 2380 fps (average for 10 rounds) which is about spot on for the listed velocity of Mk 7 ammo.


Avoid smelling burnt cordite.

Have you noted that many authors of adventure books and some factual accounts all credit the smell of burnt nitro cellulose gunpowder with the smell of Cordite? I always wonder about the author's credibility when such a statement is made.

[Multigunner]

Have you noted that many authors of adventure books and some factual accounts all credit the smell of burnt nitro cellulose gunpowder with the smell of Cordite? I always wonder about the author's credibility when such a statement is made.
Association of cordite with any smokeless propellant became so deep seated that older Royal Navy texts list Nitro-Cellulose naval gun propellants as "Cordite NC".
Actually Bulleye pistol powder is nearly identical in chemical make up to Cordite Mk1, the same Nitroglycerine to Nitro-Cellulose proportions, the smell is very similar.

Cordite also saw wide spread use for cased ammunition for rapid fire naval cannon and aerial cannon shells. The first Atomic Bomb used a cordite charge to propel the ignition plug into the main mass of uranium to acheive critical mass.

Few if any modern double base rifle powders contain even 10% Nitroglycerine.

[LAGS]

I use to save the old cordite sticks, and put them in my hunting gear bag for an emergency fire starter.
They worked really well one winter when hunting Elk and it was snowing so much it was hard to get a fire started.
A small bundle wrapped with a rubber band and one match is all it took to get the tinder started.

[tbx-4]

Ok, I pulled all this down... Just took the bullets out of the tumbler with stainless steel media and they look real good.

I remember shooting a bunch of WWII .303 surplus ammo back in the '80s. Had a few hang-fires and that bothered me. I didn't care as much then as I do now about hang-fires and corrosion... I mean, I was buying No4 Mk1 rifles for $45 and my No5 was $75... Surplus was about 3c around. I was young, life was good.

Multigunner,
Thanks for the information, very informative.
And yes, some of the cordite is turning real dark... not good. The newest Iraqi .303 ('68) had very light coloured cordite.

LAGS,
Now that is a good use of cordite. I have about a half pound now, should make nice little fire starter bundles for back packing.

[303Guy]

My friend and i years back used to go in a bar for a few drinks. We would put some black powder in a ash tray and then sit back and watch someone put a cigarette out and watch the big puff of smoke and the guy yelling what the hell is going on. We did that a few time till we got caught.:grin:Now that's a good trick! :mrgreen:

For the match heads in the pipe trick I topped them off with fresh tobacco which I lit then tamped out so he wouldn't notice. I caught him three times! His surprised comment was that his tobacco must have been really dry! This was in the military during basic training.

Got to try the black powder trick. Hee hee!


I use to save the old cordite sticks, and put them in my hunting gear bag for an emergency fire starter.Now that thought did cross my mind. Not having any cordite lying around I might just make some substitute for that purpose. I don't suppose the postal services would be too pleased if'n you you were to send me some? By airmail? [smilie=1:

[leebuilder]

I to have shot piles of surplus ammo. Most clean ammo is good and shoots like no other!. I still have piles. I dont shoot it now because it is hard to get, most being WW2 dated. Lots were given away for our heritage matches, all gone now. If you get POF stamped avoid it or recycle it, had boxes of it and they all had a 5 second hang fires. Cordite NC does smell similar, and a agree it should not enter your lungs. In the Navy if the wind were right the old.boiler and engine rooms would fill with the smoke, there was no avoiding it, the newer ships were better but you still smell it. It just comes with memories. It makes excellent fire stater! .556 plastic stripper clips are great too, they burn hotter longer. There were places near the old dockyard that would reke of cordite or NC, no idea why but it always make me stop and take an extra sniff.
138870

Be safe

[Multigunner]

A small bundle wrapped with a rubber band and one match is all it took to get the tinder started.
The most unusual use for Cordite I've read of was the self heating cans of mock turtle soup. These were used by mountaineers and arctic explorers among others as a quick nourishing way of warming up in frigid climes.

The can had a tube in the center with a small charge of cordite , I think they ignited with a pull tab. When the cordite burned in the central tube it quickly heated the soup.
I have to wonder if any of these cans ever exploded or self ignited and burned out ruck sacks and tents.

Mock turtle soup was made from horses hooves, so its warming qualities must have been its best feature.

[bouncer50]

The most unusual use for Cordite I've read of was the self heating cans of mock turtle soup. These were used by mountaineers and arctic explorers among others as a quick nourishing way of warming up in frigid climes.

The can had a tube in the center with a small charge of cordite , I think they ignited with a pull tab. When the cordite burned in the central tube it quickly heated the soup.
I have to wonder if any of these cans ever exploded or self ignited and burned out ruck sacks and tents.

Mock turtle soup was made from horses hooves, so its warming qualities must have been its best feature. Like the story of Vietnam vets who used C-4 to heat up food.

[Scharfschuetze]

Like the story of Vietnam vets who used C-4 to heat up food.

Not just a war story as that was done quite a bit in the Nam. In fact it was so common that it was a largely unenforced Article 15 offense for wasting government property in the 101st Airborne Division.

One of the classes that I teach in Hunter Safety is survival and of course fire starting is a part of that. Lots of ways to start a fire and while I don't mention Cordite per se, modern gun powder is always a good choice. I demonstrate with old or no longer needed powder from the loading room and I recommend that the students always carry a Leatherman or similar tool with pliers in their survival kit in order to obtain powder from their ammo in an emergency.

[leebuilder]

Like the story of Vietnam vets who used C-4 to heat up food.
all true. You can beat it or burn it,,,,,, just dont beat it when it is burning.
Fine steel wool and a 9v battery is the best fire starter.
That and 5.56 plastic stripper clips made my trips in the woods warmer.
be safe.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The most unusual use for Cordite I've read of was the self heating cans of mock turtle soup. These were used by mountaineers and arctic explorers among others as a quick nourishing way of warming up in frigid climes.

The can had a tube in the center with a small charge of cordite , I think they ignited with a pull tab. When the cordite burned in the central tube it quickly heated the soup.
I have to wonder if any of these cans ever exploded or self ignited and burned out ruck sacks and tents.

Mock turtle soup was made from horses hooves, so its warming qualities must have been its best feature.

Oh come now, anybody who believes that will believe anything, and here is a picture to prove it. The mock turtle is as real as the naugas that give their all to provide you with naugahide. But if there were any truth in the malicious rumour that mock turtle soup was made from veal, it might well have added gelatin, made mostly from hides, bones. and gristle.
138898

My copy of"Alice in Wonderland" (published a couple of years after the first edition unfortunately), has the name Sidney Smith in a childish hand, and "SidneySmith, Royal Artillery 1899", which probably means South Africa. Only in the British army... I think I have traced him as a lieutenant-colonel in the Royal Garrison Artillery (age-appropriate speed of movement) in the First Word War, from which he came out on his feet.

Putting clingfilm on toilet seats is unlikely to damage anything but someone's dignity, but inhaling cordite or phosphorus fumes might, and I hear you can'talways believe someone who pledges his word that he never inhaled. I am indebted to a concert violinist for the information that if you rub powdered rosin on forefinger and thumb before grabbing someone by the nose, he will never be able to pull himself loose. That should cause nothing but a mild flush too.

The Lee-Enfield barrel was designed for cordite, and the original 58% nitroglycerin was soon reduced to 30%, with an increase in the charge to compensate. That may be when they took to necking the cases after insertion of the charge, but it you had some, you could probably get it in through the neck. It was fast machine loading that was difficult. While it is more erosive than a modern 10% double base powder, a single base nitrocellulose powder is also somewhat erosive, so it is nowhere near three times as much so. Military misgivings about its erosiveness arose in the use of machine-guns, of verylarge artillery, and of rifles which had to fire fifteen rounds a minute, every minute till the soldered rear sight loosened. It can be used in moderate quantities, in normal civilian circumstances, without much fear of harm.

A Lee-Enfield wasn't easily turned into a 4-6 moa rifle by erosion alone, and if it happened in a small number of hundreds of rounds, almost all First World War rifles and machine-guns would perform unsatisfactorily. An S.M.L.E. rifle was kept in the British government's Woolwich Arsenal in the 1920s, to test the superior barrel life obtainable by using Dupont single-base powder instead of cordite. After firing 30,000 rounds, of course (probably not rapid fire, and without the various forms of abuse which affect the bedding), it nonetheless suffered from worse bore erosion than most of us ever see. I don't remember the figures foundwith pin gauges, but they were a source of wonder. But with flat-based Mk. VII ammunition it would make 18in. groups at 600 yards - or, in other words, display no defect discernable to the ordinary professional soldier of our own time.

Cordite was chosen for storing particulary well in the tropics. Gelignite contains more nitroglycerin and is still far more stable than dynamite. There are also propellant powders for rockets which contain far more nitroglycerin than Cordite MkI, because they only get a few seconds in their life to erode the nozzle.

[M-Tecs]

I have some 1949 Radway Green .303 and some Iraqi .303 dated '58, '66 & 67.
It's all cordite loaded with the the big copper berdan primers... corrosive to say the least.


I thought cordite manufacturing ceased somewhere around the end of WWII. I didn't know it was manufactured that late. Learned something today.

[Multigunner]

An S.M.L.E. rifle was kept in the British government's Woolwich Arsenal in the 1920s, to test the superior barrel life obtainable by using Dupont single-base powder instead of cordite. After firing 30,000 rounds, of course (probably not rapid fire, and without the various forms of abuse which affect the bedding), it nonetheless suffered from worse bore erosion than most of us ever see. I don't remember the figures foundwith pin gauges, but they were a source of wonder. But with flat-based Mk. VII ammunition it would make 18in. groups at 600 yards -

The 1940's British small arms manual instructions for firing on a range stated that four inch groups at 100 yards were the best that could be expected from the rifles and ammunition in use at the time. You can figure most rifles used in training were well broken in SMLE rifles, the available No.4 rifles being sent to the front lines.
Sighting in instructions for the SMLE were to use to paper bands 4" in width in a cross pattern laid over the bulls eye. They expected four of five shots to stay in the four inch square these made at 100 yards. The Spring field was sighted in using four inch bands at 200 yards with two inch bands substituted if sighted in at 100 yards.
Any run of the mill SMLE would be an exception to the rule if it were capable of better than four MOA when using MkVII ball ammunition, at least after having much cordite run through it.
Hesketh Pritchard wrote in "Sniping in France" that the WW1 era ammunition ruined a barrel for precise shooting in between 500-1500 rounds, with some bores being ruined within 500 rounds.

British manuals state that if a MG barrel has been worn out by many thousands of rounds of NC ammunition it will still handle cordite ammunition with reasonable accuracy, but a barrel with throat eroded by only a few hundred rounds of cordite will not handle NC ammunition with any measure of reasonable accuracy.
They marked the barrels to be sure they were used only with the particular ammunition type.

Barrels of either type were normally discarded after 10,000 rounds, to avoid sudden loss of accuracy that might drop short rounds among their own troops when providing over head supporting fire.
During WW2 the barrel life for the Vickers was upped to 18,000 rounds, but no reason was given. Possibly because extreme range overhead supporting fire and/or the tactic of nuisance "straffing" was less common in that conflict. Also its likely that improved metalurgy played a part.

The invention of stainless steel is said to have resulted from a unsucessful attempt to produce an Enfield barrel immune to throat erosion.

Publications like "Rifles and Ammunition and Rifle shooting" 1915 state that the maximum useful bore life of a SMLE with cordite was 12,000 rounds. Rifles like the Mauser using milder powders gave good accuracy beyond 19,000 rounds.


The suggested point for rebarreling a Enfield was at 6,000 rounds.
Springfield barrels with their less deep rifling were usually changed out at 4,000 to 5,000 rounds while pin point accuracy was still possible, but gave good battle field accuracy for up to 18,000 rounds.
The M1917 rifle with Enfield pattern rifling had a accurate bore life exceeding 30,000 rounds when single base powders were used.

The practice of necking the case after the charge was inserted dated to the first compressed black powder pellets loadings of the .303. The pellet was in the form of a single thick cylinder with central shaft much like a solid rocket motor.

There are in fact several species of turtle and tortise that might be considered "mock" turtles. The false Map Turtle for example.

Mock Turtle soup was normally made by boiling down the head horns and feet of calves along with various organ meats and eggs.
I have read that horses hooves were substituted for the calf hooves when making the soup for the armed services, but that may be a barracks rumor.

[Geezer in NH]

In the 60's 303 cordite rounds were $8.00 bucks a hundred. Rifles #3's, #4's and #5 carbines were tops $15 bucks at the gun shops in my area.

Shot a few thousands over the years when WWII surplus was available. after the bore got bad, no big deal sell the rifle for $10 buy a newer with good bore for $15.

[Multigunner]

In the 60's 303 cordite rounds were $8.00 bucks a hundred. Rifles #3's, #4's and #5 carbines were tops $15 bucks at the gun shops in my area.

Shot a few thousands over the years when WWII surplus was available. after the bore got bad, no big deal sell the rifle for $10 buy a newer with good bore for $15. [/quote]
Late 60's and early 70's local discount stores had new in the box No.5 carbines for $35 with excellent condition No.4 rifles for 24 bucks. Well worn SMLE rifles were 12 bucks with beat up clunkers sitting in garbage barrels priced at 6 bucks.
No milspec .303 ammo was available locally at the time because of some problem of old milsurp ammo having caused a few accidents.
You could mail order ammo for 3 or 4 cents a round.

There had been an accident where a hunter was killed when a Federal .303 hunting round seized up in the bore and shattered the bolthead. Federal made the first ever voluntary recall of all .303 ammo, and that got a few gun store owners scared of liability lawsuits.
Near as I remember the bore was badly eroded for about three inches and the bullet became over heated by blowby and seized up. The bullet was found still in the bore with the base blown through. Jim Crosman was the forensic examiner.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The 1940's British small arms manual instructions for firing on a range stated that four inch groups at 100 yards were the best that could be expected from the rifles and ammunition in use at the time. .

I forget whether it was Roy Dunlap or Harold E. McFarland who said five was what you could expect of the typical unaccurized M1903 Springfield.

[Multigunner]

I forget whether it was Roy Dunlap or Harold E. McFarland who said five was what you could expect of the typical unaccurized M1903 Springfield.
Which would appear to go against any report on accuracy of these rifles that I ever ran across.
There was some discussion awhile back about the quality of WW2 production M2 ball ammo being very spotty with some lots of this ammo were capable of only 4-5 MOA while other lots gave excellent accuracy, but the rifles themselves have always had a very good reputation for accuracy when even run of the mil M2 ball was used.

You can look up "Farrow's Manual of Military Training". I believe the sighting in standards for the 1903 during WW1 are found in that book. 2 MOA or less was the expected accuracy with average quality .30-06 Ball.
The problems with WW1 ammo were bad lots of primers and/or soft brass, but the bad .30 ammo didn't make it to the front.

[303carbine]

I have some 1949 Radway Green .303 and some Iraqi .303 dated '58, '66 & 67.
It's all cordite loaded with the the big copper berdan primers... corrosive to say the least.

I thought about shooting it but concerned about hang-fires and corrosion.

I'm thinking of pulling it down and reloading the bullets in boxer primed brass (HPX).

If I reload the bullets... what to do with the cordite?

Thoughts?



Old Cordite rounds can be shot no problem as long as the clean up is done properly.
Due to the age and unreliabilty of some old military ammo,I prefer to reload with new brass, powder and primers. Back in the day, I have used military ball and switched out the fmj bullets with soft nose for hunting.
Anything that gets you out shooting is good................:cool:

[gew98]

I forget whether it was Roy Dunlap or Harold E. McFarland who said five was what you could expect of the typical unaccurized M1903 Springfield.

I believe it was Dunlap whom went on about how bad issue rifles and ammunition where for the '03 range queens. His book "Ordnance went up front" puts alot of this in detail...he was there and did that.

[milrifle]

Say I was at a gun show and wanted to buy a few cordite loaded rounds just pull down and see how they are made. How would I know which were cordite and which were not?

[303carbine]

Say I was at a gun show and wanted to buy a few cordite loaded rounds just pull down and see how they are made. How would I know which were cordite and which were not?

If I remember correctly, Cordite looks like small strands of spaghetti.
The case is final formed after they drop the strands into the case, otherwise they couldn't get the stuff into the case.

[Multigunner]

If Berdan primed its most likely cordite, if Boxer Primed it is more likely loaded with a single base powder or Olin Ball powder.
Cordite required a very hot primer for positive ignition, which is one reason degraded primers cause hangfires.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Say I was at a gun show and wanted to buy a few cordite loaded rounds just pull down and see how they are made. How would I know which were cordite and which were not?

It is easy enough to tell with the pulled down .303 rounds, from the shape of the strands. Single-base .303 made in British military factories will usually have the letter Z added to "MkVII" etc., but I don't know if that was the case in the Commonwealth countries.

[leebuilder]

Ours has the Z too, but not all. Not sure why. The 1943 &1944 marked cases have the Z the others dont.
139345
be safe

[andy h]

The 'Z' suffix Refers to graphite glazed nitro-cellulose propellant

[milrifle]

Sorry for the confusion. I must type faster than I can think. What I meant was I wanted to buy some rounds for ME to pull down so I can see the strands of cordite first hand. Sounds like maybe Berdan primed is the ticket. I'll keep my eye out. Thanks to all for your help.

[Multigunner]

Ours has the Z too, but not all. Not sure why. The 1943 &1944 marked cases have the Z the others dont.

The WRA is a Winchester round NC powder or Olin Ball with the older style domed Boxer Primer.

The 42 and 45 rounds have the 7C marking which along with the larger diameter Berdan primer suggests they are or were loaded with cordite.

I remember reading that at one time cordite loaded rounds were marked with a C, I suppose to avoid confusion with the earlier black powder cartridge.

[Multigunner]

PS
I was told by a Lewisgun collector that the French pulled down British supplied .303 ammunition intended for Lewisguns in aerial service and replaced the cordite charge with Poudre B, the French NC powder. They also replaced the British bullets with a French manufactured bullet specifically designed for use against the more robust German aircraft.
In testing the MkVII bullet was found to be the least effective against the light armor of German ground attack aircraft of any rounds in use at the time.
Within its range limitations the heavy round nose MkVI bullet had much better penetration than the MkVII bullet.
The old biplanes couldn't carry a lot of armor but some German ground attack air craft had armored tubs around the crew and plates to protect engine parts. An inpromptu armor was sheets of slate taken from old billiard tables and cut to fit the cockpit floor and/or sides.

The lighter pursuit planes seldom if ever carried armor, but it took considerable retained energy and a hard nosed bullet to do much damage to the engines. Unless a bullet shattered a main spar putting holes in the air frame had little effect, especially the plywood fuselage of the Pfalz and Fokker Albatros.

[Scharfschuetze]

Milrifle,

Here's what the charge of Cordite looks like when a round is broken down.

[leebuilder]

[QUOTE=Multigunner;3248027]The WRA is a Winchester round NC powder or Olin Ball with the older style domed Boxer Primer.

No idea what was in the WRA ammo, that is last one i have. The smaller primed 1944 is boxer primed, and is not cordite.

[Multigunner]

The main consideration when it comes to accurate bore life of an Enfield is the dimensions of the bore compared to the bullet size.
Reynolds wrote that in testing it was found that if bullets were at the maximum acceptable diameter and the bore was at the minimum acceptable diameter the accuracy was best.
If a bore was over sized ,as a great many were, then erosion had a head start.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I am sure the C was added to distinguish the cordite round, not from the early black powder one, but from the much later Z marked (and mostly imported) single-base nitrocellulose ones. I a, sure production of the black powder MkI round ceased as soon as cordite became available, and if any were used up in practice, it wasn't for long. The "MkII" maark was in itself enough to identify cordite loads.

My impression is that the C mark was used for only part of the time when Z marked rounds were in production.

[Multigunner]

According to Reynolds "the Lee Enfield Rifle" page 97 when the MkVI cartridge was adopted in 1904 it was given a C on the headstamp to denote Cordite.
No mention of the C having been used on earlier cordite charged cartridges, which may have resulted in some confusion.
I don't think there was a NC loaded milspec MkVI cartridge at the time, though they may have envisioned that for the future and Canada later produced at least some IMR charged MkVI ammo. There were also commercially available .303 cartridges that used alternative powders.

[Multigunner]

Just looked further back in the book, The Cordite MkI cartridge, the first cordite charged .303, was also marked with the C on the headstamp.

[Multigunner]

This pull down of Canadian DA51 .303 MkVIIz cartridges revealed a IMR type powder but a large diameter Berdan primer.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2012/04/cartridges-303-british-handload-test.html

PS
Canada may have used MR podwer earlier on before IMR became available in the 1920's.
Several other powders were tried at various times, but according to W W Greener the quality control of the day wasn't that good and many fine sporting guns were destroyed by early Smokeless powders.

[303Guy]

Multigunner, I love the research you do. I can only read a few paragraphs. :( (If they are short enough!)

Do you have any information on South African cordite cartridges (and their head stamps)?

[leebuilder]

Yes thanks multigunner and all the guys that share. I have my puller back and will do some looking tonight and post as soon as possible.
be safe

[Multigunner]

Heres a few good sites on headstamps and cartridge details.
http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/303headstamps.html

http://www.ammunitionpages.com/categories.php?cat_id=138

http://militarycartridges.nl/uk/303.htm

https://sites.google.com/site/britmilammo/-303-inch/ball-page-2

[leebuilder]

Good info again multigunner.
here is what i got. From left to right.
1943, DA, WI, large primer, cordite
1941, DA, VII, large primer, cordite
1942, DI, VII, Z, small primer, IMR Type powder
1943, DI, Z, small primer, IMR Type powder
1944, DA, VII, large primer, cordite
1945, DA, Mk 7, large primer, cordite
139517

[leebuilder]

139518
139519
The IMR type powder is very degraded, i feels like mushy rice and had to shake it out, most still stuck inside the casing. The cordite is exposed after taking the wad out, then the strands can be picked out.

[leebuilder]

139524
bullets under the file, same left to right. The WI or AP you can see the dart peeking through, the rest are "steel" or copper clad soft lead.

[leebuilder]

Wad pic
139523
Large, .250" primer equals cordite with this ammo