1860 Colt Army Help

[birch]

If everything goes as planned, I will have a 4 screw 1860 in the next few days. This will be my first blackpowder wheel gun and am beginning the research phase. I have a few questions about what is best--conical vs. roundball, but my main concern is shooting safely. I have been searching around on here, and it seems that some people swear by an incredible amount of lube before the ball and after, and some claim to be able to seat the ball directly on the powder without a wad or anything. Some also claim that it is not important to grease up the outer wheel with grease or vaseline before shooting.

I grew up with blackpower rifles/shotguns, and we always used bore butter and a patch over the ball and very thorough cleaning at least every other shot, but usually every shot was followed by a cleaning jag.

Also, Im interested in the best way to clean. It seems that some people remove each nipple and clean after each session.

Finally, I'm looking for some actual load data with both conical and round balls.

I realize that there will be many different opinions. I will give each opinion its due creedence, but am looking for opinions of those who have actually shot/owned the 1860 Colt or replicas, and opinions of seasoned blackpowder revolver fans. Any and all help is appreciated.

[big bore 99]

I never heard of anyone putting the lube under the bullet. You need a fair amount on top of the ball to seal against chainfires and lube the bore. I've never used wads between ball and powder, but some swear by them. Regard less you don't want a chainfire. I've had one and it's not something to laugh about. I've always had better accuracy with the ball. For cleaning, I just take out the cylinder and barrel and soak them in hot soapy water and scrub them out. I've never went so far as to remove the nipples each time. A hot water rinse will dry them out in a hurry.

[Snow ninja]

Just my two cents, but I've never had a problem with a lubed wad over the powder, and a properly sized ball. Take a look at the front of the cylinder after a few shots, I've seen it a few times where the lube that was supposed to be there got shot out from recoil. Still on the fence about that. Good cleanup at the range between cylinders is a patch soaked in Windex (thanks Taffin). And stick with roundball, better overall... Like you said, this is like talking about politics and religion, everybody is going to have a different opinion, and only theirs will be right. Good luck on your journey, I know you'll have fun.

[birch]

What is the best "top of the ball" lube. I got a PM that mentioned Crisco. That sounds like it will give the burnt powder a fried chicken type of vibe.

[Snow ninja]

+1 on the Crisco if you go that route. It's cheap and easy. As far as the smell, I've never smelled any fried chicken when shooting, not that that would be a bad thing...:wink::wink::wink:

[Beagle333]

Go with the round ball. Use a .454 and it should cut a nice ring when you seat it on the charge. That will seal the cylinder. Further seal it with lube on top of the ball. I like 50/50 Beeswax/olive oil. Add 1/4 of a crayon for color. I use nothing under the ball, seat it directly on the powder. I partially disassemble the thing for cleaning and then every half dozen cleanings I take it all the way down to bare parts.
Every cleaning, I take out all nipples and scrub them, cylinder and bore out with Windex, then hot water. Dry it all quickly and apply your favorite rust preventative. These guns want to rust fast if not coated with something pretty much all the time.

A .451 ball usually won't cut a nice ring and a .457 ball will be really hard to seat and will be hard on the loading lever and arbor.

Be sure you get the ball seated on the powder charge completely. You don't want any air space under there. I think about 24 grains is the most accurate charge, but find whatever works for your combination. 30 is more fun. 8-)

I cut pipe cleaners into little segments to clean out the insides of the nipples well. Just put a small piece in there when you are cleaning (still wet) and give it a good spin. Repeat until they are all clean. When you reinstall the nipples and after you clean out the cylinder before loading, (if you oil chambers a lot for storage, you'll want to hit them with a dry wipe of your patch before loading), double check that you can see through all of the nipples before adding powder.

A fun day awaits!
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/Current%20guns/greatdayahead.jpg

[Golfswithwolves]

I would suggest looking at the black powder revolver thoughts at www.geojohn.org (http://www.geojohn.org) as I have found that his loading and revolver shooting articles are very helpful to my own Colt shooting. Some of his ideas differ from what you find elsewhere, but for me they work better.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I just got a an 1860 Colt and got the Ox-Yoke wonder wads for under the ball. .454" lead balls are the perfect size. I've been told the conical isn't worth anything, the ram distorts the point and there is no improvement in accuracy. I lubed and cleaned mine up with Bore Butter, charged it with 20 gr of Pyrodex I had and hit the range. Got 6 snaps of the caps but no ignition. Too much Bore Butter obviously. We are supposed to snap 6 caps to clean out the nipples first, I know that but didn't do it.

The Windex recommended is the ammonia free vinegar one. Mike Ventrino says to dump it with some water in a container and swish your cap 'n ball revolver around in it for a while. The solution should last you for a long time and it's real easy.

Mike Ventrino says with Ox-Bow wonder wads you do not need grease over the ball. I've had multiple charges fired before, fortunately no one got hurt.

With round balls it's amazing how the ram rod comes down to just the right depth to compress the charge. I've got FFFg and a horn that dispenses 30 gr so that's what I'll be using.

I haven't successfully shot a cap and ball since 1975 so I'm new again to it. Every evening something seems to come up preventing me from going to the range. I can't wait.

[Snow ninja]

Birch, check out these articles from John Taffin...
http://www.sixguns.com/range/cap_n_ball1.htm


http://www.sixguns.com/range/CBSIXGUNS.htm


http://www.sixguns.com/range/CBSIXGUNS2.htm



Lots of other great articles from Mr. Taffin on that site as well. Hope it helps.

[44man]

So much wrong here. Chain fires do NOT happen at the front but at the rear, either a cap slamming against the recoil plate or flame from a large hole in a nipple getting into another cap. Lube on the front is bore lube and NOT Crisco, too thin and blows away with a shot from another chamber. Use a thicker BPCR lube.
Wads are used with lower loads to eliminate air space. You can seat a RB on powder and compress it some. No need for lube under a ball. To shoot very light loads put some corn meal on the powder and press the ball into it. Balls are best but conicals can work, grease the boolit grooves and if you want put some in front too.
To clean, WATER is first. Take the wood grips off and wash with water and soap. Stick the gun in the laundry tub. No need to pull nipples, soap and water, cold is as good as it gets. Scrub the cylinder and bore with wet patches, rinse with hot water and spray all with a good product like Barricade. NOT WD 40. Lube the cylinder pin with STP Oil Treatment.
Any time you remove a nipple, use anti seize on the threads, NEVER dry. If threads have lube, they never need to be removed. It does no harm to stick the whole gun into water as long as wood is taken off.
I don't like Windex, some has ammonia in it. Use 50-50 anti Freeze and water, Anti Freeze has ingredients to prevent corrosion.
The day I listen to Taffin will never happen.
I can tell you one thing for certain, the 1858 Remington is best with a RB. Boolits will be cut from flash from the gap because the cylinder is small and the next is subject to direct pressure from the gap. The RB seems to not be damaged. But Crisco will be GONE right now.
I would love to see flame go past a seated ball that is larger then the throats.
With near 60 years with ML's I hate to read such junk.

[44man]

One other great cleaner is Birchwood- Casey BP cleaner or Ballistol mixed with water. To protect the bore of a ML rifle, nothing is better then LPS 3.

[pietro]

.

I use tight-fitting caps on my Pietta 1860's, and .457" plain RB's seated directly on the powder with an overlay of Crisco lard (applied with a tiny spatula - like a plastic picnic knife).

The Crisco is messy, but makes cleanup a snap, since it keeps the powder fouling soft & almost runny.


You would likely get many more/different answers, if you had posted your question in the blackpowder/muzzloading section, though. :idea:


.

[Maven]

"So much wrong here. Chain fires do NOT happen at the front but at the rear, either a cap slamming against the recoil plate or flame from a large hole in a nipple getting into another cap. Lube on the front is bore lube and NOT Crisco, too thin and blows away with a shot from another chamber. Use a thicker BPCR lube.
Wads are used with lower loads to eliminate air space. You can seat a RB on powder and compress it some. No need for lube under a ball. To shoot very light loads put some corn meal on the powder and press the ball into it." ...44man

Amen to the above!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Chain fires are a scary thing! I had a couple. Interestingly, apparently that's why Col. Colt designed the frame in the way it is shaped, so that there aren't any obstructions in front of the charge holes most likely to be set off in a chain fire on either side of the one aligned with the bore. Once I started using the lubed wads under the ball/over the powder and a tight fitting (.454") ball and filled up the area above the ball with lube I never again have experienced another mishap. I tried Crisco a few times, but you'll find that if you shoot three or four rounds the cylinder will heat up enough to melt it. You can set your revolver on the shooting bench, and when you pick it up again the Crisco will mostly have melted out, so you have lost that protection. I use high temp bearing grease from the auto parts store. Proper fitting caps are also important. It's understandable that if one is smashed against the recoil shield it could fire; but not logical that if properly fitted fire could enter through the nipple from an adjacent discharge. But, if the durn thing falls off down into the revolver's interior works, then the path would be open. Also, if they fall off the nipple into the interior workings of the gun they can cause it to jam. Based on my personal experience though, I believe that my chain fires did occur from the front of the cylinder. After all, that's where the fire is! If you've ever observed one fired in the dark there's a lot leaking out the breech and around the face of the cylinder! For clean up I've always been in favor of hot, soapy water for the cylinder. Using very hot water, then setting it aside for a couple of minutes will cause it to dry quickly, then a spray with WD-40 should displace any remaining water. Later I wipe the WD-40 off and use a light gun oil. For the frame I use Hoppe's No. 9 and a toothbrush, wipe it down and use the gun oil. After you play with it for awhile you might want to invest in a set of stainless steel nipples.

[big bore 99]

+1 on the stainless steel nipples and crisco..

[stevehodge256]

u uunless

[Tar Heel]

Been shooting BP revolvers for a while and have decided on the following: Use over-powder lubricated wads instead of "crisco" in front of the ball. See attached write-up I did for reasons.
138831

Round balls rule. See the attached article I wrote.
138832

Here is a target shot at 25 yards with 36 shots using wads and round balls. My 44's shoot 30gr of powder the best.

138830

The adjacent chamber flash-over argument seems to be migrating to chambers getting sparked off from the REAR, not the front. It still amazes me however that a LOT of shooters are using undersize balls in their chambers. All they have to do is READ THE OWNERS MANUAL and stop listening to a friend of a guy they knew 10 years ago while on a vacation who had a friend who's uncle knew somebody who probably shot a BP revolver......

Ultimately....what do you think? https://youtu.be/B4MfmTk_-wE

Cleaning: Hot soapy water followed by a dunk in 1:10 Ballistol to Water. Dry off and parts are pre-lubricated. Follow up with patches whetted with Ballistol through bore and in chambers. ALWAYS remove cones and clean carefully. When reinserting cones, lube with Birchwood Casey Choke Tube Lube to prevent freezup. Do NOT over tighten cones. Make snug - but do NOT honker down and torque to 9000000 foot pounds.

I completely disassemble the revolver after every shooting session. I treat my guns well. These rascals will corrode immediately and you must clean them accordingly to keep them looking nice and functioning well.

[Good Cheer]

Everybody seems to think it's either one or the other but the source of chain fires can be the front or the rear.

Concerning round ball (short boolits) versus "conicals" (longer boolits) in percussion revolvers:
(1) Either are as accurate or as inaccurate as the load shoots in a particular gun. Reloaders likely know what it takes to create accurate revolver ammunition. Mostly the same rules apply to percussion revolvers.
(2) Elongated boolits have to fit the chamber to avoid misalignment during loading.
(3) The loads have to be developed just like you were creating target loads or hunting loads for any revolver.
(4) Most shooters wouldn't bother to have a boolit fit to a percussion revolver and therefore shoot only round ball, the easiest way to find accuracy quickest. Round ball is self-aligning, has a rear end that is rounded and doesn't jet gas off to one side when exiting the muzzle and it is light weight which means you contend with less shot to variation in muzzle rise.
(5) Testing proved to me that the shape of the nose is more important to penetration with percussion revolvers than any other factor. With any boolit design you are trading powder space for lead space. Ying and yang, more lead means less powder but the boolit is heavier. But (and it's a big but), in my testing a SWC nose penetrates better than a wadcutter. A rounded flat point penetrates about the same as the SWC. A light weight round nose (read round ball) penetrates about the same but had the benefit of more powder and velocity. Same ol' yingyang.

So, me myself thinks tinkering with percussion revolvers is some kinda fun. The RCBS 45-225CAV mold worked great in a Uberti Walker for me. It just had to be sized on the rear end to load into the chambers like a miniature maxi ball. Started shooting "conicals" in the mid seventies with a Navy Arms 1861. Modified a Lee 9mm round nosed mold with a 3/8" bit and then rolled a bevel on the boolits between a couple of pieces of formica (used the grainy surface on the backside of the formica). Might as well have been shooting target load 38 wadcutters in the reworked Security Six. Rabbits trembled at my approach.
:-P

[Thin Man]

I have never known a BP shooter who used anti-seize on their revolver nipples, but this is an excellent suggestion. Most of the problems I have seen in the BP field have been (or included) stuck nipples. Anti-seize will eliminate most or all of this, along with correct regular cleaning. Over the years I have lost many nipple wrenches to stuck nipples. The nipples are made of a stronger steel than most wrenches, and the wrenches fail. Recently I found a source for hardened wrenches and they ARE the answer for this problem. After soaking the offending parts with Kroil or any other appropriate penetrating fluid, these wrenches will get them out if it is at all possible. They are available from Taylorsfirearms.com. On the right side of the front page, scroll down to "Accessories", then click on "Black Powder Accessories". Go to page 2 to find the Model 1012 Hardened Revolver Wrench. This will be the best $12 you can spend for a tool. And another note... Many nipples get stuck during their installation after cleaning by over-tightening them into the cylinder. I have learned to spin them in only until they make contact with the cylinder, then give them a slight sung-up turn. Emphasis on the word "slight". As long as the cylinder will turn with them in this position, all is well. Good luck with your project.

[StrawHat]

I started shooting C&B revolvers in the 60's and was taught by fellow competing with originals. With a properly fitted round ball, there is no need for grease over the ball. Properly fitting caps are another necessity. If your caps don't fit the cones, either get the correct caps or work on the cones. (Once your caps and cones are proper, lay in a supply so you don't have this problem next week.) I don't use a wad (lubed or otherwise) between the ball and powder. Some like it, I don't see the need. Somewhere I have a photo of the instructions that were posted in the top of the cased set from Colt's. When I find it I will post it.

Kevin

[44man]

Amazing video, sure is a lot of violence at the rear. I no longer have the Colt repro but shoot the Ruger Old Army. With a RB it will hold 41 gr of Swiss FFFG and gives me 1102 fps.
Not good at longer ranges, kind of defeats the twist rate but close it will thump deer like a .44 mag. I have taken quite a few and the last was next to my fence. When hit, she went straight up, over the fence and landed on her belly, dead.
It is amazing how deadly they are.
I made some Mathews Lube long ago for BPCR and it works great in front of a ball.
When you try to shoot Creedmore with lube in front of balls, you and the blast shield will be the original grease monkey.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I forget whether it is Dixie or Track of the Wolf that offers replacements for the Italian revolver nipples that they say aren't a good fit for most caps available in the US. I don't know how urgent a necessity this is (they are, after all, selling the things), but when I last did much BP revolver shooting I found Fiocchi caps a better fit on Italian revolvers than Navy Arms.


I'd agree that chainfires can occur at either end of the cylinder, although in a given revolver it is likely to be only one. In an original or badly cared for reproduction the chambers may be rough or differ in diameter. It is also a good idea to measure them before laying out money on a mould, in case someone has reamed or polished them. Someone may also have fitted and removed nipples hundreds of times without antiseize (which I agree is a good idea), and perhaps improperly sized nipples at that, loosening the thread. My own preference would be for careful cleaning with water and oiling, but not removing nipples if I was going to be using it again soon. After a while, or if laying the gun aside for a long period, I would remove them, and with this pattern of use I would consider stainless or Ampco nipples, if available, a good investment. I only know that they once weren't available in the small size used in the Colt Pocket Navy, but that is a minority taste.


I've only ever seen a thin copper nipple washer used in British revolvers, but it seems like a fine idea, although you may have to stone down the rear of the nipple to avoid steel-to-steel contact with the hammer. I would always prefer to put lube on top of the bullet, and although I was a long way from the Crisco market, other kinds of soft margarine (or presumably firm margarine) worked fine for me. But I would wipe off as much as possible with a fingertip, leaving it deep down in the crack between bullet nose and chamber.


The Colts don't need lubricating of the axis pin like the Remingtons do, with their smaller diameter and ungrooved pin. But they need it a bit, and STO oil treatment sounds excellent for the job. I use it as a case sizing lube, and just try removing it when you want it removed.


I have never used a lubed wad behind the bullet. I have never been convinced that conical bullets offer any advantage over the round ball, but I can think of just one. If you use round ball and a wad behind it, the pressure is likely to make the wad dish-shaped and let hot gases around it. In this situation the flat based bullet should be better.

[Tar Heel]

You guys may enjoy this:

https://youtu.be/uJ-uJjW3t2s

[MtGun44]

The way I started was lube over the ball, and this works but make a giant, nasty,
gummy mess -- and is entirely unnecessary. By about the third cylinder full the
entire gun is covered with a fine film of black slime.

Get some wonder wads if you can find them any more - or plain felt wads
and soak in bore butter or similar lube. Put one on top of powder, seat ball and
go on. Accurate, gun stays dry and clean for at least 5-6 cylinders full (all I ever shoot in
one session) and leave almost no residue, a bit of powder smoke and crud but NOTHING
remotely like the slimed, black, nasty mess that the over ball lube leaves.

I never have pulled the nipples, seems OK, but perhaps when I want to. . . . they
may not want to budge. I think this is overkill, nipples are kinda soft and fragile,
no use to be working them that much, is my opinion.

Also, by far best accuracy with .454 and larger balls in my gun.

Bill

[44man]

i don't use a wad under the ball because I want power for deer. Use one or even two for target.

[LabGuy]

I also started with Crisco over the ball, and yes it keptthe fowling soft, but made quite a mess. It made such a mess I put everything away and quit shooting it. Anyway, now I’ve started back and I put enoughCream of Wheat on top of the powder to just seat the ball into the cylinder,then lube with 50/50 beeswax and lard. The lube is a lot firmer and most importantly I use a lot less.
I played with conical back in the 1970s, but it seemed likemore trouble than it was worth. And atthe time I could borrow a neighbors two cavity round ball mold, which castbetter and faster.

[MtGun44]

Try the wonder wads.

[seaboltm]

I always place the lube under the projectile. As has been mentioned, the notion of lube on top of the projectile to prevent chain fires has been proven false. I suppose if you are the suspender plus belt wearing type of guy you could place lube under and over the projectile. I always give my caps a pinch in order to get a good seal at the rear. I always remove the nipples for cleaning. I use ballistol mixed with water in a spray bottle. I discovered ballistol shooting blackpowder and now use it for all sorts of things. It is my go to lube. Doesn't varnish up or gel up. I use the water/ballistol mix on the leather seats in my Challenger R/T. Lots of uses.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I had a chain reaction with a cap and ball once. It was when I had abandoned putting a lube over the seated ball, no lube or wad under the ball. Now I'm using the wonder wads and Bore Butter over the ball.

[doc1876]

Ml revolver experiences exist more than any other on earth. All of the teaching here is good. Just remember 2 things: 1) lube. 2) this type of questions will always start an argument.

[historicfirearms]

I have an original 1860 four screw model that I have been trying to work up the courage to shoot. I just want to be able to say that I did it. When I do, I will post pictures or maybe a video here.

[44man]

There is no way to get enough BP in a cap and ball to harm a thing. Wads work, fillers work, balls work, boolits work. Each gun just needs played with for accuracy, something I gave up for close deer shooting. More like a bow for me.
I still say if you have a tight ball, boolit or lube in front, there is no way flame can get to powder.
Many chain fires have been with grease or Crisco on the ball. Not going to happen from front.
I bet if you loaded the cylinder, set it on the bench and filled the front with BP and lit it, nothing would go off.

[square butte]

Beg to differ on an "original " of historic period metallurgy and perhaps inferior metallurgy. Also unknown condition. I suspect there are quite a few "original" 1860's that could be blown to pieces with 30 grain charges. Maybe or maybe not.

[44man]

I don't think so, have shot too many originals of all kinds. BP just does not have the pressures.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Has anyone ever heard of seen a cap and ball revolver being damaged from a chainfire?

[JeffG]

I always used a measured scoop of cream of wheat over powder since I was always target shooting. I usually put bore butter or beeswax/Crisco over the ball. I ran stainless nipples which I turned to allow Remington #11 caps to fit very snug but flush. I always indexed the nipples so the hammer wasn't impacting the cylinder and didn't mess with antiseize. After the first shot the nipples were locked in place with fouling. After shooting, once the cylinder was soaked for a minute, they came right out anyhow. Cream of wheat was much cleaner than messing with corn meal.

[Wayne Smith]

There is no way to get enough BP in a cap and ball to harm a thing. Wads work, fillers work, balls work, boolits work. Each gun just needs played with for accuracy, something I gave up for close deer shooting. More like a bow for me.
I still say if you have a tight ball, boolit or lube in front, there is no way flame can get to powder.
Many chain fires have been with grease or Crisco on the ball. Not going to happen from front.
I bet if you loaded the cylinder, set it on the bench and filled the front with BP and lit it, nothing would go off.

True, with one caviat. The original Walker revolvers had a 30% failure rate of the cylinder. This is largely because it could hold 90gr powder (!) with a ball on top. Careless or hurried loading with no measure and you had more than a rifle load of powder under that ball.

[StrawHat]

True, with one caviat. The original Walker revolvers had a 30% failure rate of the cylinder. This is largely because it could hold 90gr powder (!) with a ball on top. Careless or hurried loading with no measure and you had more than a rifle load of powder under that ball.

I believe the cause of the ruptured cylinder was laid to the fact that the "steel" used in the cylinders was of poor quality. The poor steel would rupture, the same problem was experienced with Dragoons and some of the early 1860s.

Kevin

[historicfirearms]

The early 1860s had fluted cylinders and I believe that is why they had problems, of course steel metalurgy wasn't as refined then either.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I read where a blown Colt cylinder was attributed to FFFFg powder, would 90 gr of FFFFg blow a Walker?

[44man]

I read where a blown Colt cylinder was attributed to FFFFg powder, would 90 gr of FFFFg blow a Walker?
Very well might, it is just the wrong powder.
I really don't like when guys use FFFG in the larger rifles either, That is pistol powder and the rifles should use FFG.
The fine powders create more instant pressure. Time to pressure peak can't be ignored even with BP.

[Wayne Smith]

Probably not in the 1840's. Especially with Army power supplies. I would think it was a combination of metallurgy and overload, 90gr of any size of powder short of cannon is a large load.

[AtomHeartMother]

You'd have to really crush some powder to get 90 grains in a walker. 60 grains in mine is a tight fit. The failure in the early walkers was due iron content cylinders....they weren't made of "new" steel of the time. Steel was much more expensive. Colts angle on this with the successive dragoon models was to shorten the cylinder to limit max charge. Fluted cylinders didn't cause any increase in failures and only a few colt models featured them(under Colt's direct control before he passed away). The last revolver he had direct design control was the 1862 police model...his best work in percussion, imho....
Cap and ball revolvers are a true joy to own and shoot;-)

[StrawHat]

Wondered when someone would figure out a 90 grains charge would leave about 30 grains on the table.

Kevin

[44man]

Wondered when someone would figure out a 90 grains charge would leave about 30 grains on the table.

Kevin
I did, not hardly so it was an ignore point. Can't get 90 gr of my basement dust in the gun. 60 of FFFFG would blow the gun. I know most seen the silly load too.
Not worth much comment.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Had my 1860 Colt Signature Series out yesterday and was amazed out accurate and reliable it was. Of course having a tailgate down to load made it much easier than it would be to load from horseback and in combat, plus it wasn't raining.

One of my shooting buddies likes to hit Pepsi cans starting at 30 yards with Colt's SAA's. I really enjoy shooting with this buddy but yesterday I started with this .44 cap and ball. Aiming about a foot low the Pepsi cans didn't stand a chance against this 1860 Colt. Powder was FFFg Goex, and Bore Butter was smeared over the load. Wads were seated between the powder and ball.

The 12 inch steel plate at about 45 yards was no problem with this old design.

I'm a bad influence on a guy at work, when I talk about cap and ball revolvers his heart rate quickens and he says his bride told him to buy one. He's toast. Plus he's been too long in the Glock and AR world. He just happened to show up as the 1860 Army was loaded and ready to go.

The worst part of the day was post powder let down, those powder flasks just don't hold enough. The cap and ball revolver never missed a beat, never miss fire, never chain fired and never seized up.

[bluebird]

A hardy, "Thank you!", to all the posters, here. I've got a repro 1860 army that I'd like to turn into a real target piece and you folks have reduced my learning curve by a couple of years. I will post as I shoot. Thanks again -

Bluebird -

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Yesterday is the second range session with my 1860 Colt that an entire flask of FFg was shot through the gun with zero hang ups.

This gun is addicting.

[THerbert]

People are always amazed at how "accurate" cap and ball revolvers are. A really good friend of mine of 30+ years always gets frustrated when I bring mine out to a shooting session, because he inevitably gets outshot, no matter how expensive a gun he's shooting. I've tried to tell him two things: 1) get a good instructor, and let him fix your shooting mistakes, and 2) there is no substitute for rounds put down-range. It doesn't matter what you shoot. He doesn't understand that his twice-yearly trips out to shoot with us simply do not equal the 5000+ rounds I shoot each year, and even that's not enough to get really, really good. But it sure is a lot of fun!

I have a pair of 1851s, a pair of 1860s, and a Walker replica. The 1860s shoot the best, and at a public range, the Walker draws the most questions. You can learn a lot from videos on YouTube, also. I recommend Mike Beliveau's channel, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOrzQir9WP9UpH8qtWx_ppw. Although he has videos on a lot of different subjects, he's primarily a black powder guy.

One of these years, I'll start shooting SASS matches with the 1860s. But I'm not there yet...

[gandydancer]

So much wrong here. Chain fires do NOT happen at the front but at the rear, either a cap slamming against the recoil plate or flame from a large hole in a nipple getting into another cap. Lube on the front is bore lube and NOT Crisco, too thin and blows away with a shot from another chamber. Use a thicker BPCR lube.
Wads are used with lower loads to eliminate air space. You can seat a RB on powder and compress it some. No need for lube under a ball. To shoot very light loads put some corn meal on the powder and press the ball into it. Balls are best but conicals can work, grease the boolit grooves and if you want put some in front too.
To clean, WATER is first. Take the wood grips off and wash with water and soap. Stick the gun in the laundry tub. No need to pull nipples, soap and water, cold is as good as it gets. Scrub the cylinder and bore with wet patches, rinse with hot water and spray all with a good product like Barricade. NOT WD 40. Lube the cylinder pin with STP Oil Treatment.
Any time you remove a nipple, use anti seize on the threads, NEVER dry. If threads have lube, they never need to be removed. It does no harm to stick the whole gun into water as long as wood is taken off.
I don't like Windex, some has ammonia in it. Use 50-50 anti Freeze and water, Anti Freeze has ingredients to prevent corrosion.
The day I listen to Taffin will never happen.
I can tell you one thing for certain, the 1858 Remington is best with a RB. Boolits will be cut from flash from the gap because the cylinder is small and the next is subject to direct pressure from the gap. The RB seems to not be damaged. But Crisco will be GONE right now.
I would love to see flame go past a seated ball that is larger then the throats.
With near 60 years with ML's I hate to read such junk.

53 years for me shooting BP firearms of all types and all i ever used was crisco in rifles & revolvers and never a mishap of any kind. 3 chambers went off once in my ROA I was trying a load with no crisco just wads. went back to the grease. when i started crisco or some heavy grease was all i could find. the heavy grease was harder to clean up. I still use crisco the one with no salt. but then what do i know. GD

[Silver Jack Hammer]

My 1860 just had a third flask of powder run through it in 3 days with no trouble. Bore Butter is what I smudge over the cylinders, like I said I had a chain fire back in the mid 70's one time when I skipped the grease so I'll stick to grease now.

All went well until the little latch that holds the ram lever fell off from under the barrel while cleaning at home. This is a genuine Colt so the 'smith will have no trouble soldering it back on.

Ox-Yoke Wonder Wads ran out so "Muzzleloader Originals" wads were purchased and they are worthless. I'm going back to Ox-Yoke Wonder Wads. The Muzzleloader Originals just folded up and would not set flat over the powder like Ox-Yoke Wonder Wads do.

[John Everett Walker]

I can recall one chain fire with a percussion revolver. This happened with a ball that had been unloaded from a chamber and was loose. The chain fire as as close to a non-even as anything can be and I have heard that this is usually the case. In fact, it was a12 0'clock-4 O'Clock cross fire barely noticeable .
Colts loading instructions make no mention of grease or felt wads except in the case of wads which the instructions say NOT to use.
1Place the revolver on half cock to allow he cylinder to turn;
2.Fill each (dry) chamber with powder leaving enough room for a ball;
3. Seat a bullet without wadding or patch into the chamber and ram it in with the seating lever;
4. Place caps on the "tubes."
5.Lower the hammer to rest on one of the pins located on the cylinder between the tubes.
So loaded, the revolver will fire accurately until empty. To retain accuracy, a pass through the barrel with a moisten patch will remove fouling
There is no mention of grease and it is not necessary if the balls fit, the "tubes" are in good condition.

Greas may have come into use in 1847 when a number of Walker cylinders blew up but there were other explainations having noting to do with flash over. It is possible to find civil war pictures with the bullet or ball plainly visible. in the cylinders.
Original colt prototypes had no barrier between the "tubes" and they were inset in the frame. This could have provided a raceway for fire from ignited chambers and caused chain fires of the sort
reported with Allen Pepperboxes. -particularly if one or more caps became dislodged.

Overpowder felt wads cut from old hats were used, According to Elmer Keith by some old gunmen. They were treated with mutton tallow and , like the ones availavble from a few sources like souther shooter supply, allow extended shooting without the need for constant bore cleaning.

Hot soapy water is the historic preferred cleaning method with various degrees of disassembly recommended by various sources. One method which does prevent any accumulation of rust and preservesthe finish is :
1. Remove barrel from frame and cylinder. remove grips and grip frame halves.
2. introduce "soap" -dish or a mixture of oil soap, peroxide, alcohol into the action so that all parts are covered. scrub lightly with pipe cleaners et cet then fluse thouroughy with hot water
3. reomove nipples -clean likewise. Use the same drill with a cleaning rod to clean the barrel and chamber then heat all the sub assemblies with very hot water and oil as the water evaporates.
This may be more involved than necessary but it does work.
PIetta and Euroarms .44s thrive on .451 balls and do just as well with .454 and .457. Uberti chambers are a bit bigger and need the two larger sizes
Loads:
.44 army. .454 Ball. Results with .451 and .457 are indistinguishable on target or over the chronograph. The smaller balls may "walk" in Uberti chambers
28 grains Goex fffg 822 fps 55 fps extreme spread
35 grains Goex fffg 855fps 37fps extreme spread
35 grains swiss fffg 1030fps 48 fps extreme spread
30 graun/vol equivalent Pyrodex P 921 fps 47 fps extreme spread.

Various bullets have been available going in and out of production fairly regularly in the past. Iron mold bullets from the dixie scissors mould are much more accurate that reported by "experts" particularly if you cone the bullet seater to fit them. For all practical purposes, bullets have no advantage over balls.

[44man]

While a chain fire is possible from the front, loose ball or rust pitting, most happen at the rear. Watching movies of C&B shows a huge flame front at the rear that can get under a cap or a cap can slam fire.
I only have the ROA left and load 41 gr of Swiss FFFG for 1102 fps. RB for deer and it puts deer down FAST. Only problem is the twist is wrong for that velocity so ranges must be close. 20 yards is my limit for deer.
My friend has the buf hunter Remington and gets more velocity and has killed deer with it.
The Rem has one problem, the cylinders are small in dia so the next round is almost under the gap. Balls are no problem but boolits will get cut bad from gap gas. Never gave us a chain fire but boolit noses get beat up.
I use Mathew's BPCR lube over balls, it hangs on better then any grease so the bore has better lube. Crisco just blows away.
I have boolits to shoot from the ROA and they shoot nice but the reduction in velocity for deer bothers me, about 32 gr of powder. I don't use wads for deer, want all the powder I can get behind the ball.
Someday I will have a Walker, made to hold 60 gr and reminds me of my BFR in 45-70. Original hand cannon and should do wonderful on deer.
C&B for deer? Why not, things are scary deadly. I fully believe they put down deer faster then a .44 mag.
I can tell you I don't want anyone shooting at me with a C&B!

[44man]

Many C&B's have large flash holes in the nipples. Best to change nipples out.

[TXGunNut]

I'm amazed by the short range accuracy of my C&B revolvers. I use felt pads over the powder with a bit of Wonder Lube/Bore Butter on the ball side. CCI and Remington caps fit the nipples very well. I use KIK or Swiss FFg or FFFg powder and fouling is never an issue for my range sessions. I use moose milk (Ballistol & water) for cleaning and I remove nipples for cleaning because I never know when I'll get to shoot them again. I wipe the whole gun inside & out (grips & all) with Bore Butter when I'm done, only exception is the cylinder pin which gets a dab of synthetic grease.

[Blackwater]

Guys, I'm learning here. Never shoot my two (1861 .44 and 1860 .44, both steel frames) all that much, but love it when I do. All I've ever done is melted some of my Emmert's lube into a lozenge tin and leave a shortened popsickle stick in the top, load powder and ball or boolit, then take the popsickle stick and scrape enough Emmert's to be about the size of a good sized pea, and smear it over the cylinder into each chamber. Then I smush it out with my pinkie finger around the edges around each ball, and let it go at that. All I can say is, I can keep shooting with this recipe for as long as I want, and the powder fouling stays soft enough that there's absolutely no problems from the fouling.

When I shoot these, I want to enjoy EXACTLY what the old timers did, and yes, you CAN learn to love the smell of sulphurous smoke! I once shot a friend's Ruger Old Army and split a ball on an axe head to burst two baloons with a single shot. I shot first, and nobody else wanted to follow. Kinda' spoiled my buddy's fun. I was really sorry about that part. They CAN be accurate, and much moreso than I'd expected. I was very pleasantly surprised. Also never had a chainfire using the technique I started with. Never found a reason to change, but it's nice to see so much good input on the matter. All kinds of ways to skin a cat here.

[Flinchrock]

So much wrong here. Chain fires do NOT happen at the front but at the rear, either a cap slamming against the recoil plate or flame from a large hole in a nipple getting into another cap. Lube on the front is bore lube and NOT Crisco, too thin and blows away with a shot from another chamber. Use a thicker BPCR lube.
Wads are used with lower loads to eliminate air space. You can seat a RB on powder and compress it some. No need for lube under a ball. To shoot very light loads put some corn meal on the powder and press the ball into it. Balls are best but conicals can work, grease the boolit grooves and if you want put some in front too.
To clean, WATER is first. Take the wood grips off and wash with water and soap. Stick the gun in the laundry tub. No need to pull nipples, soap and water, cold is as good as it gets. Scrub the cylinder and bore with wet patches, rinse with hot water and spray all with a good product like Barricade. NOT WD 40. Lube the cylinder pin with STP Oil Treatment.
Any time you remove a nipple, use anti seize on the threads, NEVER dry. If threads have lube, they never need to be removed. It does no harm to stick the whole gun into water as long as wood is taken off.
I don't like Windex, some has ammonia in it. Use 50-50 anti Freeze and water, Anti Freeze has ingredients to prevent corrosion.
The day I listen to Taffin will never happen.
I can tell you one thing for certain, the 1858 Remington is best with a RB. Boolits will be cut from flash from the gap because the cylinder is small and the next is subject to direct pressure from the gap. The RB seems to not be damaged. But Crisco will be GONE right now.
I would love to see flame go past a seated ball that is larger then the throats.
With near 60 years with ML's I hate to read such junk.

I am a little late here, but I agree completely!

I've only been shooting them for 40 years though.

[44man]

I never pull nipples to clean either. But if you do put a tad of anti seize on the threads, keeps fouling out and they never get hard to remove. The stuff for shotgun chokes works too. That goes for any percussion rifle too. Clean out screws need it.
Believe me, your best friend is a little container of anti seize. In 100 years the nipples will come right out.
Even every rifle I ever built has a brass or copper washer to seal the breech plug from fouling, Fouling can get into threads, I don't use anti seize on breech plugs but just seal them.
STP on cylinder pins allows me many, many more shots over anything else I have tried. It is all I use on modern revolvers too.
Blackwater is doing good with Emmert's, MUCH better then Crisco. Crisco does work as a bore lube but just blows away too easy so hardly any is left for the next shot.
I have had one chain fire in the 1860 I had long ago, did no harm, just a smear of lead on the barrel key. Caps were very loose on the nipples and Italy made huge flash holes in nipples. Seen percussion Italian rifles cock a hammer every shot until I changed the nipple.
the worst Italian rifles were flint locks. Soft frizzen that could not spark. Met two guys in PA with them, drove from MI to hunt, never shot the rifles. Neither could be made to fire.
The best story was when I was hunting in Ohio with my flinter. Mainspring broke so I went to the store and bought a pack of rubber bands, hooked a bunch over the hammer and taped them up on the forearm. I shot a deer and when I got back to Cleveland, everyone had heard about it so I was the rubber band hunter! How in the world did every Ohio hunter know about me????
Made my own mainspring and it is still going strong. yes, I can make the complicated spring by hand that will outlive any Italian spring for 200 years. Maybe I am a throwback with no hair! [smilie=s:

[Wayne Smith]

There was a question about chainfire damaging the revolver. The only one I have had, my first C&B revolver at age 17 was a brass frame 44cal '51 frame "Navy" with a casting flaw in the brass. I shot it a lot and had one chain fire, three cylinders going off together. Lead smear on the key, three cylinders empty, and kept shooting it with no problem for another year. That was probably one of the most cheaply made of the replicas, and it stood the chain fire without damage.