C. Sharps lost another sale!

[oneMOA]

A friend of mine has been admiring my C. Sharps High Wall in 45-70 and decided to order one for himself. After ordering up all the extras.....upgrade wood, French Gray receiver, set trigger, sights, etc. When it came to the barrel, he was told they would fit a Green Mountain 1-16 twist barrel and all would be good. My friend stated the plans were to shoot BPCR Silhouette using the Postell or Money bullet in 540 gr. The folks at C. Sharps did their best to convince my friend of the merits of the 1-16 twist barrel and stated that was all they had.

My friend contacted me and I advised him that the vast majority of BPCR Silhouette shooters can't be wrong when using the 1-18 twist. Since Green mountain makes several barrels in 1-18 twist and in order to make the sale would have said, yes we can furnish that twist but we will need to order it. For an almost $4000 rifle the buyer should be able to get what he wants, especially in the barrel. My friend cancelled the order. According to my friend the person who took his order on the phone was not people friendly.

Me, I just buy their High Wall action and build the gun from there. At least I get what I want.

[rbt50]

i have heard from a number of people that they are unfriendly, that is why i went with shilo sharps.

[Don McDowell]

To bad, that happened. The 16 twist barrels are gaining a ton of popularity, and quite a few of the top guns in bpcr and bptr are using 16 twist barrels on their rifles now. 16 twist might actually handle the long bullets like the 540 money bullet etc, better than an 18 twist.
Did they tell your friend the 18 twist barrel would cost him extra, or just that he would have to wait, for them to order one in?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?277031-Barrel-twist-help

[Lumpy grits]

Should have gone with the 1/16 bbl:rolleyes:
LG

[Gunlaker]

Some will tell you that the 1:16 barrels are a disadvantage at the closer distances. This is not the case with my .45-90. I've got a #5 GM barrel on it. For the first few hundred rounds the barrel held onto it's fouling more than in my 1:18 twist Badgers and Shiloh barrels. Now it's about the same.

The tighter twists will require that you bullets are of a high quality, but you want that regardless of twist rate anyway.

My other .45's are all 1:18 twist which I think is fine. They are quite accurate. My next .45 will be another 1:16 though I think. I really like this new one.

Chris.

[oneMOA]

To bad, that happened. The 16 twist barrels are gaining a ton of popularity, and quite a few of the top guns in bpcr and bptr are using 16 twist barrels on their rifles now. 16 twist might actually handle the long bullets like the 540 money bullet etc, better than an 18 twist.
Did they tell your friend the 18 twist barrel would cost him extra, or just that he would have to wait, for them to order one in?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?277031-Barrel-twist-help

Don, they did not offer to order any other barrel. It was pretty much take the 1-16 or leave it. My friend left it.

[oneMOA]

I will admit that I live so far back in the woods, I'm usually the last one to hear about the latest fad. I'm not aware of any of the manufacturers using a 16 twist barrel on a rifle one might choose for use in BPCR Silhouette. My 18 twist C. Sharps will shoot on a regular basis at 200 yds, 1.25 MOA on centers. Occasionally it will shoot one moa for five shots st 200 yds. I've not heard of anyone claiming their 45-70 will shoot "One Hole" groups even at 100 yds.

To be sure we are talking and comparing apples to apples, I'd like to hear from silhouette shooters who are shooting at a max of 500 meters and using a 45-70 rifle with a 16 twist barrel. Failing that, maybe someone could post a link with equipment info listed for some of these "Top Shooters".

[Don McDowell]

Did you follow the link I posted?

[M-Tecs]

A couple of more links with good info.

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=23286

http://www.bpcr.net/index-a.htm

[oneMOA]

Did you follow the link I posted?

I did and found not much meat there for silhouette shooters and the yardages we shoot. I lean towards the "If it's not broke, don't fix it" crowd and the 18 twist seems to work for many shooters, myself included. Unless someone can show me the 16 twist gives more bullet stability at 500 yds and therefore smaller groups, or bucks the wind better, then I'm stuck in "Old School" and 18 twist. Give me a Postell bullet and 18 twist and I'm a happy camper and this is what I tell anyone who asks.

If there is an equipment list from a big match that list the twist of the competitors rifles, I ask again for a link to that list.

[Don McDowell]

:lol: Several time champion, and last years 3rd place national finisher, not good enough? That's a good one...

[rfd]

twist schmist - what idiot manufacturer tells the customer "my way or the highway" when a $4k order is in the balance and the part in question comes from a different manufacturer? really?

good on yer bud, oneMOA.

[Don McDowell]

Most manufacturers will tell you that, call Pedersoli and tell them you want something different. Shiloh won't be real receptive to a twist different from what they use as standard either.
Sad part is there was some really poor uniformed advice given to the person wanting to buy the rifle, 16 twist rifles have been seeing a ton of use in the last few years. So now I wonder what he's got for a rifle?

[country gent]

My hepburn was ordered from C Sharps with several upgrades, long range soule sight, globe front, better wood grade, 34" tapered octagon barrel in 45-90 to make wieght of 12 LBs and a pewter forend tip. The gentleman taking my order recomennded the 1-18 twist green mountain barrel. At the time badger had just dropped black powder blanks and they were out of what I wanted in blanks.

[bigted]

too bad he didn't desire a good ol "74" "Sharps" as I bet Shiloh would do the deed just as he desires it to be ... and give stellar customer service and advise along the way as well as after sale relations. heck 4K is a very nicely outfitted Shiloh to boot.

[rfd]

who cares what rifle twist is "best" when ... "According to my friend the person who took his order on the phone was not people friendly."

the bottom line is that IF what was relayed to oneMOA by his bud is true, c.sharps needs a slap-upside-the-head customer attitude adjustment on more than one count.

i'll add - the one and only phone conversation i've had with c.sharps (last year) wasn't all that friendly and helpful from their side, either. they lost my business as a result.

[country gent]

That hasnt been my experience with C Sharps at all. When I ordered my rifle they were more than helpfull willing to discuss and explain things. Things went smoothly and I had a good experience with them. When the trigger return spring broke at a match I called the following Monday talked to a gentleman He said he would fit one up to an inhouse action and send it out no charge, I had it on wensday. He or someone dropped what they were doing to get it done and shipped same day I called. I was told when I ordered my rifle green mountain was thier barrel supplier and if other was wanted I could have the blank shipped to them for the rifle.

[rfd]

it is what it is - having someone not-so-customer-friendly manning the phones isn't a good way to do bidness.

[montana_charlie]

The folks at C. Sharps did their best to convince my friend of the merits of the 1-16 twist barrel and stated that was all they had.
Since the 18 twist is the 'standard' today, I find it hard to believe that a 16 twist was "all they had".

It seems more likely that they had a lonely 16 in stock, and that they were most desirous of convincing someone to take it off their hands.

CM

[DW475]

Last time i visited C Sharps I walked around looking at what was in the displays for about 15 minutes before anyone came out from the back. Seemed pretty busy in back but the guy took the time to answer some questions. I ended up going down the street and visited Shilo and their shop had a better presentation when i walked through the door and i was immediately greeted by a young lady behind the counter. Shilo's customer service was outstanding and seemed like they went above and beyond to earn my business so i ordered a couple 1874's and now the hard part is deciding which one i want next!

[webradbury]

I thought they used Badger barrels. Oh, well...to bad about the order. I agree with the customer on this. $4000 for a custom rifle, C. sharps coulda/shoulda made it work.

[Don McDowell]

I thought they used Badger barrels. Oh, well...to bad about the order. I agree with the customer on this. $4000 for a custom rifle, C. sharps coulda/shoulda made it work.

Badger has been gone for 3-4 years now. When CSA ran out of those they went to the Green Mountain barrels.
But I'm wondering about the original story here... There are 2 hiwalls in 45-70 on the available list, that are priced at 4000..

[Gunlaker]

I've got a number of C. Sharps and Shiloh rifles. Pete at CSA is a pretty good guy to talk with, but the owner is a bit more gruff :-). They've always managed to pull off whatever I wanted.

Shiloh definitely is more customer service oriented and you'll never regret buying one.

I was skeptical of the GM barrels but ordered one when the supply of Badgers dried up. Actually I have three GM barrels but have just used one. One of them has a noticeable hitch when pushing a tight patch through it. That one will not get used. The one that CSA put on my last highwall is excellent. At first it collected more fouling, but has a tighter twist so that is expected. It's pretty good now after several hundred paper patched bullets. The rifle has shot some absolutely excellent groups so I am pleased with this particular GM barrel.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

There's a young fella on another forum that has recently got ahold of a CSA hiwall in 45-70 with the 16 twist, and he's reporting sub moa groups with the postel, and liking how it's treating him in sillouette.. Dan T started the push towards 16 twist barrels quite some time ago, and that idea has started to catch fire, mostly due to the excellent results the folks open minded enough to try it are getting.

[Gunlaker]

Before ordering my 1:16 twist i had read of some saying that it would generally be less accurate at shorter ranges, and wouldn't work well with lighter bullets. Some of my best targets came when fireforming shooting at only 220 yards with a measly little 500gr PP bullet. It's even shot a few sub-moa groups with that short bullet.

The proof will be in the pudding later this year when it gets shot at distance though. I think I'm coming very close to a good LR load now, although it'll be with a heavier bullet.

With that said, slow twists can shoot incredibly well too. At the moment my most accurate rifle at midrange distances is probably my Shiloh with a 1:16 twist .40-65. The thing is like a laser beam. My DanT chambered .45-70 PP 1:18 twist rifle isn't quite as good at the shorter ranges, but I think it'd outdo the Shiloh by 500.

In the end most of it still comes from the trigger squeezer and his wind reading ability :-)

I wish I'd ordered a 1:16 twist for the .45-70 PP rifle too though.

Chris.

[EDG]

If they have a bad customer service person call back and go around him.
They need to know if they have a turkey on the phone so they can correct the problem.

[John Boy]

I've not heard of anyone claiming their 45-70 will shoot "One Hole" groups even at 100 yds.
14 out of 25 rounds. Has to be several 'One Holers' in that ragged group
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Targets/LymanPostell100Yds.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Meadowmucker/media/Targets/LymanPostell100Yds.jpg.html)

[Chill Wills]

If they have a bad customer service person call back and go around him.
They need to know if they have a turkey on the phone so they can correct the problem.

More than likely it is the owner. He is not known for his PR. Too bad, because he really is not that way but often comes off poorly.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I will admit that I live so far back in the woods, I'm usually the last one to hear about the latest fad. I'm not aware of any of the manufacturers using a 16 twist barrel on a rifle one might choose for use in BPCR Silhouette. My 18 twist C. Sharps will shoot on a regular basis at 200 yds, 1.25 MOA on centers. Occasionally it will shoot one moa for five shots st 200 yds. I've not heard of anyone claiming their 45-70 will shoot "One Hole" groups even at 100 yds.

To be sure we are talking and comparing apples to apples, I'd like to hear from silhouette shooters who are shooting at a max of 500 meters and using a 45-70 rifle with a 16 twist barrel. Failing that, maybe someone could post a link with equipment info listed for some of these "Top Shooters".

Why better? It sounds like "as good" would be a fine argument for making the 16in. twist available to the customer, if he wants it. Holding more components stock costs money, and stockholding complication costs money, but although Green Mountain barrels aren't cheap, it would be a pretty small part of the cost price of a rifle which reaches the customer for $4000.

I agree it is pretty disobliging of the company to do this, and I don't think there is any real practical need for it. There are shapes and lengths of bullet which the 18in. twist will stabilize and the 16in. won't, allthough I doubt if it is the 500gr. Postell. Excessive spin when it is the other way around seems even more academic. I haven't done the mathematics for the angular deflection caused by having the bullet's centre of mass .001in. off its centerline. About seven inches at 1000 yards, possibly? The 18in. twist will cause eight-ninths as much as the 16in. A bullet that well made will have very little tendency to a wobble or a spiral. It mostly comes down to the bullets.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

More than likely it is the owner. He is not known for his PR. Too bad, because he really is not that way but often comes off poorly.

Well yes, I suppose... It is better than expecting a natural PR man to learn how to make rifles. HM Pope used to be a "take it or leave it" man too.

[oneMOA]

Most manufacturers will tell you that, call Pedersoli and tell them you want something different. Shiloh won't be real receptive to a twist different from what they use as standard either.
Sad part is there was some really poor uniformed advice given to the person wanting to buy the rifle, 16 twist rifles have been seeing a ton of use in the last few years. So now I wonder what he's got for a rifle?

Don,

So in your opinion my advice given to my friend was "Really poor and uninformed". I have noticed that on this forum and others that you visit you are quick to "Run Down" other posters who have a different opinion than yours. Most who comment on this forum are respectful and courteous with their posts. You could learn from them. As for your wondering what he's got for a rifle, he is the proud owner of a new Browning BPCR in 45-70 with the Lee Shaver mods to the trigger. This came in at about half the money of the C. Sharps. It has a Badger barrel with a 18 twist.

[Don McDowell]

Those Brownings are good rifles.. If someone hasn't buggered up the inside of the barrel it should serve him very well.

[Hang Fire]

[QUOTE= I've not heard of anyone claiming their 45-70 will shoot "One Hole" groups even at 100 yds.
[/QUOTE]


Here is my JM Marlin #5 Pacific Ballard in .45-70, best have been able to narrow down year of mfg. is 1878. Now I can't do the 100 yard one holers, but I have seen two guys do it repeatedly with the rifle.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/TANSTAAFL-2/P1010288.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/TANSTAAFL-2/media/P1010288.jpg.html)

[Lumpy grits]

Don,

So in your opinion my advice given to my friend was "Really poor and uninformed". I have noticed that on this forum and others that you visit you are quick to "Run Down" other posters who have a different opinion than yours. Most who comment on this forum are respectful and courteous with their posts. You could learn from them. As for your wondering what he's got for a rifle, he is the proud owner of a new Browning BPCR in 45-70 with the Lee Shaver mods to the trigger. This came in at about half the money of the C. Sharps. It has a Badger barrel with a 18 twist.

Facts are FACTS and Don knows of what he sez.
I have shot with Don-I'm honored to call him a friend. Do we agree all the time- NO WE DON'T.
There is a difference between rude and blunt-Don is blunt and to the point. As I am also.
If you can disprove any statement Don has made-Then do so.
All I will say on this-
LG

[oneMOA]

Facts are FACTS and Don knows of what he sez.
I have shot with Don-I'm honored to call him a friend. Do we agree all the time- NO WE DON'T.
There is a difference between rude and blunt-Don is blunt and to the point. As I am also.
If you can disprove any statement Don has made-Then do so.
All I will say on this-
LG

LG,

Since you say you have shot with Don, and find him to be a fine fellow. I have not had the privilage but I can see where face to face can sometimes be different than behind a keyboard. You say both you and Don are "Blunt and to the Point". That is not a license not to be "Respectful and Courteous" and you seem to feel that being blunt means folks should cut you some extra slack because that's your nature.

As for disproving his statement about the 16 twist rate.........everyone knows the standard for 45-70 for BPCR rifles is 18 twist and has been for many years. Nothing to disprove here. Some folks are experimenting with 16 twist for some applications and having good success with some boolits. That does not mean the old 18 twist and the postell boolit is obsolete.

[Lumpy grits]

To day- the common ROT in .45cal. is 1/18.-there was a time it was 1/20.
Many folks these days are go'n to 1/16. As I will on my next build-
BTW-My PJ C'moor will out shoot any Postel, no matter what the conditions are.
Where/when did I ever ask for any 'slack' from anydangbody?
Never have or will!-STOP with the ASSumpions!
LG

[M71]

We're just fortunate this forum exists. We can ask questions and get many answers. What's even better is the seasoned veteran shooters here that unselfishly share their thoughts and some members are even national "Winners Circle" champion marksmen. It just doesn't get any better. You can draw your own conclusions wheater to use the information shared here or not. I personally have been tutored on precision casting, the art of paper patching and what equipment works best. These folks here are an awesome assembly of resourse sharing individuals. Respectful debate is a good thing and can be entertaining. If you don't have a good sight, "Hold into the wind".

[Lumpy grits]

we're just fortunate this forum exists. We can ask questions and get many answers. What's even better is the seasoned veteran shooters here that unselfishly share their thoughts and some members are even national "winners circle" champion marksmen. It just doesn't get any better. You can draw your own conclusions wheater to use the information shared here or not. I personally have been tutored on precision casting, the art of paper patching and what equipment works best. These folks here are an awesome assembly of resourse sharing individuals. Respectful debate is a good thing and can be entertaining. If you don't have a good sight, "hold into the wind".

x2!
Lg

[country gent]

I considered 1-16 when I bought my last rifle but decided on 1-18 instead ( A C Sharps Hepburn re production) It shoots very well for what Im doing even with the new 550 grn bullet and lighter load. There are reasons for changing and or going to diffrent things, but if what you want is what you know and has worked for you in the past changing may not be needed. One thing I do find upsetting at times is the one up manship that seems has to take place in this forum whenever controversy or diffrent opinions appear. I have never shot with Don I have corrisponded with him and got alot of great information from him. But corteous polite replys gain alot more than the opposite. It would be interesting to see some test results same shooter, and several twist rates in same 45 caliber cartridge to see actual performance on targets and at chronograph. and also at diffrent ranges. WIth this it would be a major undertaking just casting the bullets for such a test. Several things play a part in twist rate, velocity, bullet dia, and bullet length to name a few. Extended distances require heavier for caliber bullets thus longer bullets. Lower velocity tends to need faster twists. all this is important when deciding on a twist rate. For some one wanting to shoot 200yds with a shorter 405 grn flat point bullets a 20 twist may be the best choice. For the Gentleman wanting to shoot 550 grn money bullets at long range a 16-18 twist may really shine

[rfd]

.....

a voice of reason, thank you sir.

[quickdraw66]

LG,

Since you say you have shot with Don, and find him to be a fine fellow. I have not had the privilage but I can see where face to face can sometimes be different than behind a keyboard. You say both you and Don are "Blunt and to the Point". That is not a license not to be "Respectful and Courteous" and you seem to feel that being blunt means folks should cut you some extra slack because that's your nature.

As for disproving his statement about the 16 twist rate.........everyone knows the standard for 45-70 for BPCR rifles is 18 twist and has been for many years. Nothing to disprove here. Some folks are experimenting with 16 twist for some applications and having good success with some boolits. That does not mean the old 18 twist and the postell boolit is obsolete.

Nothing Don said seemed rude or disrespectful to me, now you telling him that he is quick to run down other people's opinions was a little disrespectful. Nothing he said was wrong. 16 twist barrels are producing very good results and they are winning competitions. That doesn't mean the 18s are obsolete, but that also doesn't mean using a 16 twist puts you at a disadvantage.

[Geezer in NH]

IMHO, 2 inches in twist is an internet only problem. I disregard them who argue it as WGAF

[country gent]

A friend in michigan just rebarreled his high wall with his own barrel ( He has a rifling lathe) Made it 17 twist.

[Geezer in NH]

Buy elsewhere hope the 2 inches helps you shoot better.

[Litl Red 3991]

I'm over 70. Ordered the rifle pictured some months back. Been shooting it for about a month now.

It's a 40-70SS and has a twist that stabilizes 400gr really well. The quick twist also insures the 300gr loaded to mild velocity are also stabilized.

I shoot with a guy who is shooting an import. He's been doing that for over a year now while he waits for "the best" Sharps he ordered back before he bought the import. The import has been a learning experience for him, which is why he said he bought it. He's learned how to get "undersized" bullets on paper. He's found "oversize" molds are hard to find, and learned where to order guaranteed to order molds. He learned they are more expensive than "good enough" molds that come with handles. And he read on another forum about a guy who'd ordered a rifle like he's waiting on just got his, after "slightly more" than 2 years. "slightly" by itself being longer than mine took from order to shooting. There truly can be a lot to learn from these rifles. Some "learn" you more than others.

140851

[ian45662]

141352Here is a 200 yard group from a c sharps highwall 45-70. 1:16. 540 grain creedmoor over 67 grains of goex old E 1.5. The smaller one is the same load at 100. Bothe targets were shot 8 times

[Don McDowell]

Nice shooting!

[BAGTIC]

How much of the "better presentation' was due to the fact that you were greeted by a "young lady"?