If hunting is your primary goal then a 6" is approprirate.

[Whiterabbit]

I want to know what folks think about this.

Consider these assumptions:

IF a shooter can shoot identical accuracy with a 4" barrel
IF the ballistics are identical (for example, a 10" Blackhawk shooting a 45 caliber bullet at velocity X, and a 4 or 3 inch FA shooting the same boolit at the same velocity X)

Then why is barrel length (ANY length, long or short) tied to hunting as a goal?

If all we care about is bullet X coming out the barrel at Y velocity with accuracy Z, then don't factors like "ability to carry", "speed to present", "gun weight" (heavy or light), "cartridge efficiency", all mean nothing?

Wouldn't a 10" gun have the same value as a 2" gun if the shooter could do the same with them and the boolit were capable?

Is the only reason to suggest a longer barrel the idea that it is "easier" (perceived) to achieve the desired boolit placement? "easier" (perceived) to achieve sufficient ballistics to get the job done? Why else is a longer barrel recommended?

[Whiterabbit]

Here's another case. Two blackhawks, one 10" one 4", and the "accuracy load" just happens to be the same (aka the accuracy load for the 4" is a max load, and the accuracy load for the 10 is not a max, but the boolit muzzle velocity is the same as the max load in the 4", and it just happens to be the accuracy load in the 10").

In this case, both pistols are modified to shoot with a scope.

Why should I pick one over the other? Seems the same to me.

[Thumbcocker]

Whatever you can shoot the best with.

[Cornbread]

Whatever you can shoot the best with.

^This exactly.

[ejcrist]

For me the longer sight radius from the longer barrel is a very big factor since I hunt with open sights on my revolvers. It's much more difficult for me to line the sights up consistently with anything shorter than say about 5". I can usually get pretty consistent sight alignment with 7.5" and greater, but that's just me. When shooting handgun silhouette 1/2 scale I generally use a 10" barreled TC Contender or 7.5" revolvers. Again I'm talking about open sights in my case. If the handgun is scoped it shouldn't matter. Also for me, as a general rule a longer barrel is capable of higher velocity but I know this only applies is the other factors like barrel-cyliner gap, etc. are the same. Like you said though, carrying ability is also a factor and in my case I don't want to carry anything longer than 8 1/2" when hunting.

[gray wolf]

The longer barrel with the longer sight radius should be ( I say should be ) more accurate.
The fact of the scope may negate this, but as the distance increases the longer barrel should perform better.

As far as FPS goes, I don't think you can achieve the same velocity with the shorter barrel.
That is to say: With everything about the load being equal.
Least nothing I have read say's you can.

If it were me I would have to look over my hunting area, If say I thought my longest shot might be 60 yards and the 4" gun could reliably deliver a humane kill shot I would have no problem with the shorter barrel.

But I think your hypothesis is wrong, but that is just my thoughts on the matter.

[Beerd]

has the title of this thread been taken out of context?
..

[dubber123]

[QUOTE=gray wolf;3239281]

As far as FPS goes, I don't think you can achieve the same velocity with the shorter barrel.
That is to say: With everything about the load being equal.
Least nothing I have read say's you can. [QUOTE]


Equal loads, the F/A will likely be a little faster, but maybe not. Max loads, it will surely be faster, if loaded to what the guns are rated for. The F/A is a 65,000 Psi gun, and makes interesting things happen to standard cartridges when loaded to the guns potential. Guns vary enough that you can never say never. My 4-3/4" F/A .475 is faster than my brothers 6-1/2" BFR .475 with mine using 1/2 grain less powder. 2 different guns may be the exact opposite.

I regularly have shorter barreled guns be more accurate than longer ones. It's not set in stone, but it happens quite often. Balance and feel in the hand is very important to me.

[williamwaco]

If you are using a scope, i agree. Otherwise, you can aim more accurately with the longer barrel.

[Whiterabbit]

And therein lies the rub. Anyone who says a short barrel can be as accurate or more than along barrel says they experience it first hand. Anyone that says a long barrel has a technical advantage never cites experience, only theoretical possibility. Hard to argue with that, and yet the long barrel idea/argument is awfully compelling, isn't it?

[dubber123]

A good gun with a 2" barrel will out shoot a poor gun with a 10" barrel every time. The longer sight radius does help to eliminate the human variable, and may or may not balance steadier than a shorter gun, it does not guarantee better accuracy. I have quite a few S&W .38 Spl revolvers, and the least accurate of the lot, barring the 1-7/8" snubs, is a scoped 8-3/8" M14. All of my 4" guns will out shoot it. Just the way it is.

[Petrol & Powder]

If hunting is your primary goal then a 6" is appropriate.

Looks a lot like something I posted today on another thread ;-)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?276921-First-centerfire-wheel-gun-help-decide-thread/page2 post #28

The difference isn't the gun. the difference is the shooter. The extra barrel length gives you a little more sight radius, a little more velocity and a little more muzzle forward weight.
A for the record, I don't care for 6" barreled revolvers ! Most of the time a 4" barrel is a good compromise between weight, bulk & accuracy.

[StrawHat]

Ohio requires a minimum barrel length of 5", so of the many handguns I own, all of my 4" barrels are not acceptable, regardless of accuracy.

Kevin

[GoodOlBoy]

Most critters are alot more delicate than we give them credit for these days. IF you can place ANY projectile in the right place; be it arrow, bullet, or other; then the critter will expire. The easiest game to take down in my experience has always been whitetail deer. A 22 long rifle, well placed, will put them down at the yardage you can make the shot from. Even though rimfire hunting of whitetail in Texas is illegal (and I am NOT proposing anybody break the law) more deer have been taken with a 22 than ANY other round. Similarly the toughest critters I have ever had to take down are coons, possums, and old squirrels in that order. I have skinned out old male squirrels that dulled knives and had a half cup of shot and several 22 bullets under their hide that hadn't penetrated the meat.

The point is, I think any gun you can place the projectile in a kill spot with will kill the game. Barrel length and caliber aside. If you can't hit it, you ain't gonna get it.

GoodOlBoy

[NC_JEFF]

I am are better shot when using a larger sight radius. I've shot enough from barrels 4" or shorter to know that I am markedly better with a 6" or greater barrel. I'm not a great shot but I'm decent and I shoot better with the longer sight radius.

[44man]

I shot IHMSA for years and sight adjustments were important. Long barrels would be 1,2,3,4"
A click at 50 meters was 1". Short barrels Could double or triple that. When I sight for hunting to 1" high at 50, I am only an inch or so low at 100.
I just shot a .38 fixed sight and could not hit paper at 25, shot so high. I moved to 10 yards and hit high paper.
Then there is spin rates to stabilize a boolit, 50 fps loss can remove all accuracy. A short barrel can be accurate with the right load but a scope only makes it work. The thousandths of an inch your eyes can't hold will mean a miss.
This is 3 shots at 100 yards with a 10-1/2" Ruger .44, off hand.138723
Bring your 2" snubby here and shoot a 3/4" group at 100 and you will be the top gun.
Freedoms have slow twist rates so you need max velocities but if you shorten you will never reach stability. The worst thing is to shorten a Freedom and 80,000 psi will not get to spin.

[44man]

The best invention ever was rifling. Rifle shooters are very fussy but revolver shooters ignore twist so bad that I do not understand it. You NEED spin and a matching velocity. While the rate can be the same in a 2" barrel, you need to raise the velocity over what any powder can burn to or a gun can withstand. Then you have boolit destruction, slump, etc. Higher pressure does not solve it.
Then how you can align sights with a short gun when you need to talk a thousandths.
Even with a scope, if spin is wrong, you are tossing stones.

[44man]

A good gun with a 2" barrel will out shoot a poor gun with a 10" barrel every time. The longer sight radius does help to eliminate the human variable, and may or may not balance steadier than a shorter gun, it does not guarantee better accuracy. I have quite a few S&W .38 Spl revolvers, and the least accurate of the lot, barring the 1-7/8" snubs, is a scoped 8-3/8" M14. All of my 4" guns will out shoot it. Just the way it is.
Only because something is wrong with the gun. I shot 1" targets at 100 yards with an 8-3/8" 27. I shot prone, never knew Creedmore back then. Never had sand bags except for rifles.

[44man]

[QUOTE=gray wolf;3239281]

As far as FPS goes, I don't think you can achieve the same velocity with the shorter barrel.
That is to say: With everything about the load being equal.
Least nothing I have read say's you can. [QUOTE]


Equal loads, the F/A will likely be a little faster, but maybe not. Max loads, it will surely be faster, if loaded to what the guns are rated for. The F/A is a 65,000 Psi gun, and makes interesting things happen to standard cartridges when loaded to the guns potential. Guns vary enough that you can never say never. My 4-3/4" F/A .475 is faster than my brothers 6-1/2" BFR .475 with mine using 1/2 grain less powder. 2 different guns may be the exact opposite.

I regularly have shorter barreled guns be more accurate than longer ones. It's not set in stone, but it happens quite often. Balance and feel in the hand is very important to me.
Freedoms have funny dimensions so you could have tighter throats or bore. The bore might be oblong. Every BFR I have measured has a groove at .475" and throats at .4765".
You might be faster from wrong dimensions.

[bouncer50]

This is a no win subject. All depend what you shoot best with maybe a 4inch 6inch, 8inch, etc. All depends what distance you shoot at 25 yards 50 yards, 100 yards. I go what i shoot the best with at the distance i can shoot the best at. I shoot the best at 50 yards that my limit that i know i shoot the best at.

[44man]

Balance in the hand is a funny thing. I shake more with a short barrel by far. Get old and shaky like me and the tail wagging the dog is better. I shoot the monster BFR 45-70 better off hand then I can my Mark II that has no weight. I want the big damper out there.
I have no revolver under 7-1/2". All I do is hunt and have shot revolvers to 500 meters many times. Yeah, 547 yards for those that don't know meters from yards. I could live with 6" but not less.

[osteodoc08]

I agree with the thread title. If hunting, a 6" barrel is appropriate.

[Petrol & Powder]

Balance in the hand is a funny thing. I shake more with a short barrel by far. Get old and shaky like me and the tail wagging the dog is better. I shoot the monster BFR 45-70 better off hand then I can my Mark II that has no weight. I want the big damper out there.
I have no revolver under 7-1/2". All I do is hunt and have shot revolvers to 500 meters many times. Yeah, 547 yards for those that don't know meters from yards. I could live with 6" but not less.

They make these things called "rifles" you should look into them. Pretty established technology; I think they're going to catch on for making long shots.......:kidding:

[dubber123]

[QUOTE=dubber123;3239447][QUOTE=gray wolf;3239281]

As far as FPS goes, I don't think you can achieve the same velocity with the shorter barrel.
That is to say: With everything about the load being equal.
Least nothing I have read say's you can.
Freedoms have funny dimensions so you could have tighter throats or bore. The bore might be oblong. Every BFR I have measured has a groove at .475" and throats at .4765".
You might be faster from wrong dimensions.

It might be "all wrong", but it is faster, and so far, more accurate. Some of it is likely the horrid excuses for sights BFR's ship with. My brother has tossed the rear on his BRF for a Bowen unit, but it still has the aluminum abomination up front. 440's at 1,340 fps. in a 4-3/4" barrel, (my F/A), getting up to speed isn't an issue with this one. Just lucky I guess.

[Mauser48]

6 inch is mainly used becuase of sight radius and they are a little. Ore muzzle heavy which balances really nice and is easy to hold steady. Also most of the 6 invh guns can be scoped and most of the shorter ones are harder to scope.

[leftiye]

I started liking muzzle heavy revolters 45 years ago. A 6" heavy barrel is always appropriate (appropriate? How about functional, efficient, etc.?). Except in a gun where size matters like CC. Nuthin wrong with 8", or 10" neither.

[44man]

[QUOTE=44man;3240150][QUOTE=dubber123;3239447]

It might be "all wrong", but it is faster, and so far, more accurate. Some of it is likely the horrid excuses for sights BFR's ship with. My brother has tossed the rear on his BRF for a Bowen unit, but it still has the aluminum abomination up front. 440's at 1,340 fps. in a 4-3/4" barrel, (my F/A), getting up to speed isn't an issue with this one. Just lucky I guess.
Yeah , Ruger sights we had fits with for IHMSA. The BFR is a big Ruger. But my .475 BFR with an Ultra Dot hit 4 out of 5 on a 6" swinger at 400 yards after the first shot was seen by my spotter.
It was harder to get a friends Freedom to reach 1" at 50 yards. We did it though. The BFR will hold 1/2" to 5/8".
Velocity is never the answer, it is velocity to spin. You can brag about speed but that could be wrong.

[44man]

I started liking muzzle heavy revolters 45 years ago. A 6" heavy barrel is always appropriate (appropriate? How about functional, efficient, etc.?). Except in a gun where size matters like CC. Nuthin wrong with 8", or 10" neither.
This is true, I hunt and don't have a gun on my hip. I don't sit in a car with a hip holster. Do you carry or hunt? I never carry if I have a rifle. I don't carry, period. I hunt with my revolvers. I shoot what shoots best. 2" and 4" guns do not shoot best.

[Whiterabbit]

Any good sight options out there?

[Thumbcocker]

Bowen

[44man]

They make these things called "rifles" you should look into them. Pretty established technology; I think they're going to catch on for making long shots.......:kidding:
Naw, I have both hands free with my largest revolver in a shoulder holster. I don't need a rope to pull up a gun and can drag deer without the rifle in my other hand. I have to carry out the rifle for friends as they drag.

[Whiterabbit]

Bowen

For a BFR?

[44man]

For a BFR?
Anything that will fit a Ruger without machine work.

[dubber123]

[QUOTE=dubber123;3240653][QUOTE=44man;3240150]
Yeah , Ruger sights we had fits with for IHMSA. The BFR is a big Ruger. But my .475 BFR with an Ultra Dot hit 4 out of 5 on a 6" swinger at 400 yards after the first shot was seen by my spotter.
It was harder to get a friends Freedom to reach 1" at 50 yards. We did it though. The BFR will hold 1/2" to 5/8".
Velocity is never the answer, it is velocity to spin. You can brag about speed but that could be wrong.

Just proving you don't always need a rifle tube to get high velocities. I've heard too much bunk about how if you go below 7-1/2" inches you give up too much speed. Ain't always so.. My .475 shoots best with the heavies flat out. Probably due to the twist/velocity thing you mention a lot. Lucky for me I don't need a long barrel to get the necessary speed. At 50 yds. 400's stabilize to 1" groups at 550 fps. (5 grains Trailboss). I'm not seeing the instability of the "wrong" twist in my gun.

Whiterabbit, the Bowen rear sight fit on my brothers BFR perfectly. The front is a bit trickier, but ridding yourself of their version of a front sight would be good. A member here made nice billet fronts, but I have lost his info. BFR's are really good pieces, they just need a little tweaking.

[Good Cheer]

Hunted rabbits right out of high school with a 4". Got lots of rabbits. Now a 6" is preferred.
Like St. Bob used to sing "Time changes everything".

[williamwaco]

OK.

Hard numbers from 60 years experience.

In guns of equal quality, the 2" is just as accurate as the 6".

I have known people who could shoot 2" groups at 25 yards with a 2". I am not one of them.

With a two incher, at 25 yards 6 to 8 inches is the best I can do.
With a 4 incher, that tightens up to four to five inches.
With a six incher, tightens up to around two to three inches.
With an 8 incher, around 1.5 to 2.5 inches.

This is NOT because the longer barrels are more accurate. It is because I can acquire and hold a more accurate sight picture with the longer barrels.

[Petrol & Powder]

OK.

Hard numbers from 60 years experience.

In guns of equal quality, the 2" is just as accurate as the 6".

I have known people who could shoot 2" groups at 25 yards with a 2". I am not one of them.

With a two incher, at 25 yards 6 to 8 inches is the best I can do.
With a 4 incher, that tightens up to four to five inches.
With a six incher, tightens up to around two to three inches.
With an 8 incher, around 1.5 to 2.5 inches.

This is NOT because the longer barrels are more accurate. It is because I can acquire and hold a more accurate sight picture with the longer barrels.

Agreed, it is the shooter not the gun. I've seen more than one shooter that can run a 2" revolver better than a 4" !!!

The extra sight radius provided by the longer barrel is the major factor, not the actual barrel itself. If you could extend the front sight out past the muzzle most shooters would see their groups get smaller despite the barrel being the same length.

[white eagle]

And therein lies the rub. Anyone who says a short barrel can be as accurate or more than along barrel says they experience it first hand. Anyone that says a long barrel has a technical advantage never cites experience, only theoretical possibility. Hard to argue with that, and yet the long barrel idea/argument is awfully compelling, isn't it?

Nice!:lovebooli

[44man]

If you have stability and a scope, there might be no difference in accuracy. Sight radius is important of course with opens. But you still need a load for stability, witness all the posts about sideways hits on paper.
Have a shorty with the right load and boolit, it will work. But just try to get a .500 S&W or 45-70 to work with 4". A 400 gr at 550 fps, not hardly. I will never believe that.
Just played with a .38 Taurus snub with factory loads. Sad, never hit paper so I loaded +P loads and had a 1" group, off hand.
I shoot a 420 gr from my .475 at 1329 fps and the .400 Lee at 1340 fps ave. The Lee has 64,320 RPM's and at 550 fps it has 26,400. Not going to work. I showed what a heavy boolit shot slow will do, my 330 from the .44 at a stupid slow speed with unique at 50 yards. It NEEDS over 1300 FPS and did 1-5/16 at 200 shot right.139081 You will have a hard time telling me to ignore twist and spin.

[dubber123]

You can not believe it if you want, but I just dug out the only target I had with the 5.0 grains of Trailboss and the LEE 400 RF. I shot my usual 25.5 grs. of H-110 and the 440 LBT first, and got a 2.5" group sitting and resting off my knees. I then shot the TB/LEE load, and got a 1-7/8" group about 2" lower. I chronoed this load at 550 fps. average. Don't know how it would fare at 100 yds. or more, but it shot right around an inch average at 50 yds. off a rest.

The 440's at 800 fps. spray all over. The LEE's at 550 do not. Try it some time.

[44man]

Watch the boolits through a good spotting scope at range. You have to watch over spin and under spin. I have watched thousands and thousands of shots. I can tell you the difference between a S&W and Ruger. Ever watch a 30-30 boolit go off to the right to the next ram and swing back to the one shot at? I do not guess at this stuff, I seen it.
I have seen and shot crazy stuff but to do it all the time will not happen. Shot a too large boolit a few times and had a good group with every boolit hitting sideways.
Over spin sucks at short ranges but is king at long range. Under spin is for short and will go to pot at range. you show a couple of groups but I go by many on the average. Do you know your spin and what spin the boolit needs to be stable?

[dubber123]

Watch the boolits through a good spotting scope at range. You have to watch over spin and under spin. I have watched thousands and thousands of shots. I can tell you the difference between a S&W and Ruger. Ever watch a 30-30 boolit go off to the right to the next ram and swing back to the one shot at? I do not guess at this stuff, I seen it.
I have seen and shot crazy stuff but to do it all the time will not happen. Shot a too large boolit a few times and had a good group with every boolit hitting sideways.
Over spin sucks at short ranges but is king at long range. Under spin is for short and will go to pot at range. you show a couple of groups but I go by many on the average. Do you know your spin and what spin the boolit needs to be stable?

Nope, I sure don't. I know the 440's don't do well at reduced speeds, but at 50 yds. the LEE 400 IS stable enough to average right about an inch, over maybe a dozen or so groups before I lost interest. All holes were nose on and round. I said I didn't know what would happen at longer range, as I never tried it. I wanted a 50 yd. practice load that shot to the same sight setting as the full power 440's, and this was the best I could do. Ridiculously slow gave enough barrel time to get me close. In the end, the 2" difference in POI bugged me and I abandoned the project.

I know you haven't, but to prove it to yourself, try some of the LEEs at 5-600 fps. With the faster twist in the BFR, I guarantee they shoot really well out of your gun.