Trouble reloading Norma brass

[yman]

I purchased a 6mm rem rifle awhile back and just getting around to messing with it. My friend that built it has passed away so I have no reference. He sold me the rifle and about 200 rds of Norma brass with a set of old lyman AA deluxe 6mm dies. When I went to size the stuff I can only run about 4 or 5 thru b/4 the expander plug gets so tite I am afraid to try another one. If I take the expander plug out and clean it I can do another 4 or 5. I had some Hornady brass on hand so I tried that, I could run about 10 thru b/4 it started seizing up. I tried a little case lube on the case mouth and then on the expander plug and this only seemed to make it worse. I removed the expander stem from the die and tried running the brass thru without it and they worked just fine. I then got my rcbs 243 dies out, screwed the expander plug waaaaay down and deprimed and expanded then sized them with the lyman die. This seemed to work ok. So I am trying to figure out if the problem is the Norma brass or the lyman dies. Best as I can measure the expander plug in the lyman is same as the plug in the rcbs, although the lyman plug is a big long 1 and the rcbs is just a little short 1. I hate to chuck the dies or the brass, I always heard Norma brass was top notch stuff and they do not make it in 6mm Rem any more. What do you all think, is the brass or the dies??

[dtknowles]

Oh, where to start. How much is the die sizing down the neck. Can you measure before and after sizing without the expander? How many times has the brass been fired, are the necks hard and need to be annealed? Do you clean the inside of the necks before sizing? How much did the case lube help? Try giving each of the necks are scrub with a bore brush? I use graphite on the inside of the necks and it helps.

Tim

[runfiverun]

mmhmm I'd measure a sized case without the expander ball.
and see just how much you are trying to size those necks back up with the ball in place.
you may need to polish the neck portion of the die out.

I use a bore mop that I put lube on and stick it down inside every case I re-size.
it gets the lube down at the bottom of the neck where it makes contact with the ball sizer and makes pulling the case over it about 1 million times easier.

[troyboy]

As stated. Polish the expander and clean then lube inside the the neck. I use a q-tip after dipping in a mix of Lee case lube mixed with alcohol.

[yman]

I did try cleaning the inside of the case necks with a bronze brush, but it didn't seem to help much. I was afraid to put to much case lube down the neck as I figured it would contaminate the powder. I assume I need to wash them with hot soapy water afterwards? I don't know how many times the brass has been reloaded, but I do remember him talking about annealing cases buy standing them in a pan of water and heating them with a torch until red and then tipping them over, but that was 22 hornet cases. I am running on a limited budget here and would like to a save the brass if I can.

[yman]

Also, how do I polish the expander ball?

[MT Chambers]

I wouldn't use case sizing lube on inside of case necks, use either Mica, Graphite, or dry moly, although some of this stuff is messy, the dry lubes won't contaminate the powder.

[Wayne Smith]

Get you an old prescription medicine container, fill it with shot, and put in a half teaspoon or so powered graphite. When you need to lube case necks shake up the bottle, take off the cover, dip your cases in the shot, and enjoy. Replace the top when done!

[gloob]

Measure the OD of your sized/expanded Norma necks compared to the Hornady. Even more accurate, seat a bullet in each headstamp, and measure the OD of the neck. I expect the Norma necks are thicker.

Hence, when sized, the ID of the Norma necks is smaller. The expander ball has more work to do on the way out.

There's also the issue of being new brass, which is stickier. But you already found out that lube doesn't solve the issue, so you already took care of that.


Best as I can measure the expander plug in the lyman is same as the plug in the rcbs, although the lyman plug is a big long 1 and the rcbs is just a little short 1
Ok, this does make a difference when the necks start getting tight. Bear with me. When you pull an expander out of a tight case neck, it stretches the brass. The case is being "racked" between the shellholder and the expander ball. This causes the case neck underneath the expander ball to stretch longer and THINNER in diameter, bearing down on the expander ball like a Chinese finger trap. The harder you pull, the tighter the neck clamps on the ball. Once you cross beyond a certain point, no amount of case neck lube will completely solve this problem. (Your die sounds like it's right on the edge of working fine, though.) The lyman plug works better because it is longer. The case neck immediately below the area of expanding is plugged at full diameter, so there's less of the case neck available to be subjected to this stretching effect.

The neck in your 6mm die might be a little tight, and you might want to hone it out a bit, keeping in mind that some brass is thinner than others, and you want it to remain small enough to work on your thinner necked brass.

The easy solution is to use a Lyman M die for expanding. You replace your 6mm decapping/expander pin with a universal decapping pin or a 223 pin. Then you expand in a separate step with the Lyman M die. I do this with all my rifle cases. (Even though most don't need it; I load cast in all my calibers, so in those cases I do it for the flare). Push thru expanding doesn't have the same issue in tight necks as the pull thru balls. There's no case neck stretching, and there's no need for any lube (unless you are using new or squeaky clean wet-tumbled brass).

I have been there, done that. I have a Hornady rifle sizing die that is super tight in the neck, and the Lyman M die is a must. It's completely effortless, no lube in my case necks, and the case necks/shoulders don't get stretched and distorted and overworked.

[yman]

Gloob, interesting reading on how the expander ball works, sounds like your right on because the further down I pull the tighter it gets. I may try the dry stuff, I have some graphite the medicine bottle trick sounds like the mother on invention,lol. If that does not work I will look into the M die, or I may just have to buy a new set of dies, I wouldn't mind having a neck size only as I only have the 1 gun in 6mm. But wow, I got sticker shock at the price, I know $200 for you true blue bench rest shooters is all ok, but I cant even think about that. I am kinda excited to see what the ol gun will do. It shot 1/2in groups at 100yard with some custom hornedy stuff. I hope I can reload some stuff that will do that well. Thanks for all the imput, I will see how it comes out.

[1johnlb]

Also, how do I polish the expander ball?

Chuck your expander in the drill and use 0000 steel wool to smooth out any rough places on the expander ball. Hold the steel wool on the expander while spinning it in the drill.

[3006guns]

I noticed that you mentioned the Lyman die has a long expander ball. That extra surface area is going to drag more on the inside of the neck and would explain why the shorter RCBS expander is easier to use. If that proves to be the case, just purchase a .243 expander from RCBS and install it in the Lyman die.

[country gent]

Make sure the expander isnt set to high, if it is in the neck portion of the die it can pinch the brass between die and expander creating alot of tension. A die sizes smaller than needed and the expander opens up to size needed if expander is in the neck portion there is no clearence to llow neck to expand out.

[yman]

I already tried putting the rcbs expander ball in the lyman die, didn't work, threads were different. But I agree the longer expander ball is causing more drag.
I always set my expander plug almost to the bottom of the die so the pin cleanly knocks out the old primer. I am not sure why anyone would have is high in the die, maybe I am missing something, but I sure understand what your saying there county gent, I can see what you talking about would cause a problem.

[gloob]

Oh, I must have misunderstood. I took it that the longer Lyman expander worked better/easier than the shorter RCBS. Then I went back and re-read the OP and am even more confused. If I'm reading this correctly, you expanded the unsized cases, first, then sized them after. So your necks would not be expanded, at all.


I removed the expander stem from the die and tried running the brass thru without it and they worked just fine. I then got my rcbs 243 dies out, screwed the expander plug waaaaay down and deprimed and expanded then sized them with the lyman die [with the expander ball removed?]. This seemed to work ok.

Try seating a flat base bullet, and you may find there's a problem.

Because of variation in case neck thickness and springiness, sizing can't leave the ID of the neck to an exact size. That's the reason why the expander is necessary, at all, and why it has to be done after sizing. The game is to size the necks slightly too small, intentionally, (sizing die working on the OD, plus varying by springback x 2) so that they can be expanded back to a more consistent ID (expander plug operating on ID, directly, plus any springback cancels itself out in this direction). And it sounds like your die is sizing the necks a bit TOO small, on top of that. I don't think you'll be able to seat bullets in unexpanded necks.

[Char-Gar]

Lyman All American dies are good dies and Norma is good brass. It is impossible to diagnose your issues with the few words we have here. I seriously doubt the problem is with the dies or the brass, but the operator.

[gloob]

If you have never experienced this issue and thought it through, you may not understand what is going on. But it is easily diagnosable from the info given. Already done. I'm sorry if that sounds cocky and arrogant. Runfiverun nailed it on the second reply, already. I added an additional option and further explanation.

[EDG]

Lyman dies tend to squeeze cases down more than most other brands. So expanding the necks may take more force.

Polish the expander a little to remove the tool marks. Most Lyman expanders are ground so it is easy to polish them with 400 grit wet or dry paper used wet.
Spin the expander in a electric drill. Polish about 1 to 2 minutes.

When you size the cases, lube the necks with case lube on a nylon case neck brush.

Then clean the case necks with a piece of old T shirt wrapped on an old bore brush or nylon brush. Then rinse in 90% isopropyl alcohol to remove any residual lube.

Then let the cases dry - the alcohol will evaporate faster than water.

Then prime with a hand tool.

If your dies do not behave you have to modify your loading process sometimes.

[gloob]

It is quite easy to push an oversize expander through the neck of a case, such as when turning a 243 case into a 7mm-08 case. You can just push the ball right through with a little lube, and tada, you have a necked up case. No real effort.

OTOH, if you were to take a 243 die with a screw-on expander ball, and screw a 7mm expander ball onto the stem thru the bottom of the die, then run a 7mm-08 case through the die, you'd have a hell of a time getting the ball back out. If you and your press had the strength, and if you lubed it up enough, the ball might come back out. But the case would be mangled.

Pull thru expanding has a relatively narrow range where it works, properly. It's a compromise of convenience, and it doesn't always work, particularly where your case necks have a big variation in thickness. Push through expanding will work without issue in cases where pull thru expanders can not.

In this case, OP might get by with trying different lubes. In some cases, you can open up the neck of the die. But you can only open up the neck of a die so much before it can no longer size thin-necked headstamps. So if you have a very large variation in case neck thickness, you may need to either use a push thru expander or turn necks or sort and segregate brass and/or use a neck-sizing die. This why I was curious about OP's measurements of neck brass thickness between Norma and Hornady.

[EDG]

It makes no difference if you are pulling or pushing. What does matter is the location of the press linkage when the maximum force is required.

If the press linkage and ram is nearly full up so that the mechanical advantge of the press is at maximum it is easy. That is why having an elevated expander works so well. That is also why you cannot feel much force when expanding at the very top of the upstroke. You are basically using a press designed for FL sizing just to expand a neck a few thousandths.

[gloob]

I beg to differ. If you have ever had a slightly tight rifle die, you would see the problem is much bigger than can be accounted for by leverage. And the resulting mangled brass tells the tale. The Chinese finger trap is the reason pull thru expanding only works up to say 5-10 mils. Go for too much expansion, and pull thru expanding will fail, miserably.

Try the experiment I posted. Set the ball as high as you want, and use your favorite lube. You will probably have to cut the case to get the ball back out. And it doesn't even take that much of a size difference. Even a few mils too small in the size die makes a huge difference. There's a point of no return that is quickly reached, due to the positive feedback loop that the pull thru expander creates.

Furthermore, when you take a 243 case and run it through a 7mm-08 die, the ball is hitting the case mouth at a much less advantageous point in the leverage then when the ball gets withdrawn (ease of pushing down vs pulling up not withstanding). Also notice when pushing the 7mm ball into the case neck, you can gradually increase pressure and easily push the ball thru in one motion. You can start and stop in the middle, and pick up where you left off. And it requires very little effort to do. It's perfectly smooth. When you pull an even slightly oversize expander through a neck, it's a herky-jerky start/stop deal with massive peak forces where the brass grabs at the expander. If you've ever experienced it, you know. It is hard, it will shake things off your bench, and it simply doesn't feel right. The case sticks and fights the whole time. There's a big difference between pushing and pulling.

This is also one of the reasons is takes more force to pull a bullet than to seat it in the first place, and/or to seat the bullet deeper.

Sorry for sounding so hard-headed. It is what it is. I have character flaws.

[EDG]

Your experience is NOT my experience.
I have never had that issue when there is adequate lube on an expander.
Like I said you can set the press and die up to push an expander through almost anything if it is set high enough - which is at the top of the ram stroke.
It does not take more force to pull a bullet that has just been seated. Seat a few and then pull them.
Maybe your press is very different than mine or maybe your table is not heavy enough for your press.

Try backing your die up until the expander is being pulled through at the top end of the ram travel.

There is a big different in pulling and pushing not because of the brass but because you are leaning on the handle with your body weight. Get an old simple linkage press and turn the linkage around so it sizes on the up stroke and pulls the expander through on the down stroke.





I beg to differ. If you have ever had a slightly tight rifle die, you would see the problem is much bigger than can be accounted for by leverage. And the resulting mangled brass tells the tale. The Chinese finger trap is the reason pull thru expanding only works up to say 5-10 mils. Go for too much expansion, and pull thru expanding will fail, miserably.

Try the experiment I posted. Set the ball as high as you want, and use your favorite lube. You will probably have to cut the case to get the ball back out. And it doesn't even take that much of a size difference. Even a few mils too small in the size die makes a huge difference. There's a point of no return that is quickly reached, due to the positive feedback loop that the pull thru expander creates.

Furthermore, when you take a 243 case and run it through a 7mm-08 die, the ball is hitting the case mouth at a much less advantageous point in the leverage then when the ball gets withdrawn (ease of pushing down vs pulling up not withstanding). Also notice when pushing the 7mm ball into the case neck, you can gradually increase pressure and easily push the ball thru in one motion. You can start and stop in the middle, and pick up where you left off. And it requires very little effort to do. It's perfectly smooth. When you pull an even slightly oversize expander through a neck, it's a herky-jerky start/stop deal with massive peak forces where the brass grabs at the expander. If you've ever experienced it, you know. It is hard, it will shake things off your bench, and it simply doesn't feel right. The case sticks and fights the whole time. There's a big difference between pushing and pulling.

This is also one of the reasons is takes more force to pull a bullet than to seat it in the first place, and/or to seat the bullet deeper.

Sorry for sounding so hard-headed. It is what it is. I have character flaws.

[gloob]

Your experience is NOT my experience.
I have never had that issue when there is adequate lube on an expander.
Any one of us can go through life without ever experiencing a specific problem in reloading. It depends on the dies we get, the brass we use, and bullets we buy, and the guns we shoot.

I would think having no previous experience with an issue wouldn't make you more of an expert. No offense. Any response to a post adds to the discussion, IMO. And this is an interesting topic that may not be so obvious as it appears, if you have never experienced it.


[you can pull an] expander through almost anything if it is set high enough - which is at the top of the ram stroke.
Have you tried it? Why would you? Unless you have had a tight die, there would be no point in doing this, so I would be surprised if you had ever gone out of your way to actually try. So forgive me for asking your experience behind this statement.

If you haven't any, I suggest you try my experiment. If you have two compatible rifle dies of suitable calibers, put the larger expander stem into smaller caliber sizing die. Say 1 mm bigger caliber, max; half a mm, even better. Slather on your favorite lube, and see what happens when you run a case through.

You will be able to easily neck up the case on the way down, but the trip back up will a completely different story. I am not sure that you will even get the ball back out. It's not just a matter of subjective force due to the way the press is oriented. It will require obviously greater force, and it will be a grabby and sticky ordeal that will ruin the brass, even if you succeed.

Some of us don't need to do that, because we have a die that is tight enough to illustrate this phenomenon right out of the box. This doesn't make me any smarter or better at reloading than you. And it certainly doesn't earn me any popularity points to be so bull-headed. It just means I got a bum die in my life, and I spent more than 5 minutes to figure it out, so I already know what is going to happen.

And when I came to the forums with questions about my die, there were some helpful responses, and there were also plenty of well-meaning responses that missed the mark, same as this thread. #1 answer when I asked was a suggestion to try the responder's favorite lube. They'd tell me how they use [x] brand lube. They'd tell me how they apply it. Then they'd go on to explain how they've never ever had this problem, so this would obviously fix my issue. :)


It does not take more force to pull a bullet that has just been seated. Seat a few and then pull them.
Oh, but it does. When you compress a tube end-to-end, the diameter increases. When pull on the ends, the diameter decreases. Pulling on the bullet makes the neck grab on tighter. Now, when seating in a tight neck you are expending additional force to expand the brass, so you may have to take that into account.

[Char-Gar]

I dunno guys. I have been at this reloading thing for quite a spell and have no had the problem our OP has. If the dies are clean, both sizing die body and expanding ball, and the cases well lubed, body and inside neck, with a good lube, he should be able to size cases until the cows come home with no problems. The questions I have for the guy are;

1. Is the sizing die and expanding ball thoroughly clean and rest free?

2. What kind of case lube are you using. I used RCBS case lube on the outside and powdered graphite on the inside of the case necks.

3. What kind of press is being used. Even an old Pacific C should have plenty of leverage for this simple job.

Frankly it sounds like one of two things;

1. He is not lubing or using some bad lube inside and out.

2. Thinks it should take less force to size and expand that it actually does. So he get scared and thinks he is going to stick a case when that is not going to happen. The only time I have ever stuck a case in a die in 50 years was from insufficient case lubricant.

[gloob]

I have been at this reloading thing for quite a spell and have no had the problem our OP has.I have never run into a gun with excessive headspace. I don't go around telling people that partial resizing is not necessary and suggest they are doing something wrong when they have casehead separations. I have never had a rifle with a tight chamber. I don't go around telling people that small base dies are unnecessary and that they must be doing something wrong. I have never found a use for a pistol FCD, other than for bulge busting the base of cases. But I don't deny that some folks may have found a good reason to use one, just because I haven't come across that situation, yet.

If you really want to help out, you could do the thing I have suggested. It will take you 15 minutes. That is a fraction of the time OP and I and anyone else that has ever had an overly tight-necked rifle die have spent on the matter. It seems like a reasonable thing to ask, compared with, say, reversing the linkages on a press. It would be interesting to hear your observations.



1. He is not lubing or using some bad lube inside and out.
I dunno how many rifle dies you have, but I have dies where you don't need any neck lube, at all. One is so loose in the neck that I have to toss (or anneal) a percentage of my cases every loading, because the die can't make the neck small enough to get any tension. And I have a die so tight that neck lube isn't enough. I have noticed some differences in most all my dies. I have also found that if using a Lyman style push thru die, I don't need any lube, even on my tightest dies.


2. Thinks it should take less force to size and expand that it actually does. So he get scared and thinks he is going to stick a case when that is not going to happen. The only time I have ever stuck a case in a die in 50 years was from insufficient case lubricant.
Well, if all goes right, it shouldn't take much force to expand a case, at all. Speaking for myself, I wasn't scared at the force required. I tried to think of it as a variation of normal that I had just not experienced before. But I quickly got tired of having to lube the necks and still needing 3-4 times as much force to pull the brass out of the die as it took to size the case, and of knocking things off my bench in the process. If that's considered normal, then I'll gladly continue using my completely unnecessary alternative option.

[Char-Gar]

I have never run into a gun with excessive headspace. I don't go around telling people that partial resizing is not necessary and suggest they are doing something wrong when they have casehead separations. I have never had a rifle with a tight chamber. I don't go around telling people that small base dies are unnecessary and that they must be doing something wrong. I have never found a use for a pistol FCD, other than for bulge busting the base of cases. But I don't deny that some folks may have found a good reason to use one, just because I haven't come across that situation, yet.

If you really want to help out, you could do the thing I have suggested. It will take you 15 minutes. That is a fraction of the time OP and I and anyone else that has ever had an overly tight-necked rifle die have spent on the matter. It seems like a reasonable thing to ask, compared with, say, reversing the linkages on a press. It would be interesting to hear your observations.



I dunno how many rifle dies you have, but I have dies where you don't need any neck lube, at all. One is so loose in the neck that I have to toss (or anneal) a percentage of my cases every loading, because the die can't make the neck small enough to get any tension. And I have a die so tight that neck lube isn't enough. I have noticed some differences in most all my dies. I have also found that if using a Lyman style push thru die, I don't need any lube, even on my tightest dies.


Well, if all goes right, it shouldn't take much force to expand a case, at all. Speaking for myself, I wasn't scared at the force required. I tried to think of it as a variation of normal that I had just not experienced before. But I quickly got tired of having to lube the necks and still needing 3-4 times as much force to pull the brass out of the die as it took to size the case, and of knocking things off my bench in the process. If that's considered normal, then I'll gladly continue using my completely unnecessary alternative option.


Ya know, Gloob this really isn't a contest about who know more about reloading dies and how to use them. You have staked out a position and diagnosis and will defend it with your last breath. Just take it easy and let folks have their say and the OP can figure it out for himself.

For your edification, I have been reloading since 1958 and currently have about a hundred sizing dies and I have used many more over the last 57 years. I am not a novice reloaded.

[rockshooter]

This makes my head hurt- gloob gave the easy way in post #9

"The easy solution is to use a Lyman M die for expanding. You replace your 6mm decapping/expander pin with a universal decapping pin or a 223 pin. Then you expand in a separate step with the Lyman M die. I do this with all my rifle cases. (Even though most don't need it; I load cast in all my calibers, so in those cases I do it for the flare). Push thru expanding doesn't have the same issue in tight necks as the pull thru balls. There's no case neck stretching, and there's no need for any lube (unless you are using new or squeaky clean wet-tumbled brass).

I have been there, done that. I have a Hornady rifle sizing die that is super tight in the neck, and the Lyman M die is a must. It's completely effortless, no lube in my case necks, and the case necks/shoulders don't get stretched and distorted and overworked."
Loren

[Motor]

I did try cleaning the inside of the case necks with a bronze brush, but it didn't seem to help much. I was afraid to put to much case lube down the neck as I figured it would contaminate the powder. I assume I need to wash them with hot soapy water afterwards? I don't know how many times the brass has been reloaded, but I do remember him talking about annealing cases buy standing them in a pan of water and heating them with a torch until red and then tipping them over, but that was 22 hornet cases. I am running on a limited budget here and would like to a save the brass if I can.

Make sure the expander is as low in the die as possible without it bottoming out in the case.(Sorry breezed over posts 13 and 14)

I don't what type or brand of case lube you use but RCBS case lube will not harm powder. This is what the green handle and nylon case neck brushes are for. You roll the nylon brush on the lube pad then lube the inside of the case neck with it. I did this for years before getting into dry lubing. I usually only needed to do 1 in 3 or 4 to keep it running smoothly.

My 6mm Rem was my first highpower rifle. Used it for everything from 1976 to about 1986. I still have and use it today. :)

If you do look for a new set of dies look at the Redding 3 die set. I have 2 of these and they were a very good bargin for the quality of Redding. You get a full length size die, a neck only size die, and a bullet seat die.

I'm here trying to push Redding I have a lot more RCBS and all the others but found this die set to be an awsome bang for the buck.

Motor