Pewter instead of tin for lyman #2?

[Jevyod]

Was looking at recipes to make some Lyman # 2 using what I have on hand. I have pure, COWW, and Linotype. I also have several pounds of pewter. I found this recipe that will supposedly give me #2. It calls for 9lbs COWW, 2lbs Linotype, and 7oz virgin bar tin. My question is can I substitute 7 oz pewter for the tin?

[white eagle]

Pewter will not be 100% tin so your alloy will not be exact but probably close enough

[William Yanda]

I have been led to believe that modern dietary pewter is 90%+ tin, with the balance being mostly antimony with a touch of copper. As White Eagle said, probably close enough. 7 oz virgin tin? use 8 oz of pewter and back the linotype off an ounce. Or not.

[runfiverun]

I'd just as soon have the tin on the low side myself.
try ww's 3 to 1 with the lino and add in another 2% tin.
that will get you close enough to the lyman #2

[scottfire1957]

You could use the alloy calculator to answer this. A lot of work went into it, it has it's own forum even. Pewter has a large thread going also.

[imashooter2]

Since you are really only assuming that you know the exact content of your scrap WW and Lino, using pewter for the tin falls right in line.

[Jevyod]

Since you are really only assuming that you know the exact content of your scrap WW and Lino, using pewter for the tin falls right in line. Good point, So maybe I should get my COWW and lino more thoroughly examined to make sure of exact composition. If I remember correctly, somebody on here offered those services. Anybody remember who that was?

[bangerjim]

Don't get lost in the weeds on trying to make "lyman #2"!

That is an old alloy referenced in the old books anyway and many today do not even use it, what with all the coatings available such as Hi-Tec and powder coating.

Close enough is close enough.

A % either way is not going to make that much difference.

Save your time and money and shoot more softer lead!

[runfiverun]

ain't seen it offered for a while.
just make your alloy from your components and shoot it.
if you want EXACTLY #2 alloy then suck it up and break out the debit card and call the refinery.

[RogerDat]

With heart medicine the composition has to be exact and pure, with boolits not so much. Unless you are at the point where exact and precise repeatability of composition is required to improve suitability of alloy or accuracy of shooting don't sweat it. Not trying to push 2500 fps, shoot big game, or shoot at 600 yards? Then a 1/2 or even whole percent difference of any of the alloy components probably won't make much difference.

+1 for the alloy calculator. You put in pewter, WW's and Lino in and it tells you what you have as a result. Then as suggested you can add an oz. of this, subtract an oz of that until the resulting BHN and alloy is what you want.

Good is good to quote Charlie Waite (Kevin Costner in Open Range)
Perfect on the other hand is expensive.

[RogerDat]

Just for grins I ran that recipe through the Alloy Calculator. it yields Sn/Sb/Pb of 4.92/4.46/90.4 with .2 Arsenic. Shift that tin to pewter and it becomes 4.63/4.69/90.4 same Arsenic plus .07 Cu so pretty darn close. Up the pewter by 1 oz. to 8 oz and it yields 5.11/4.7/89.9

Me I would stay with the same 7 oz. amount of pewter since it holds the Sn/Sb in balance closer to equal which is what Lyman #2 does at 5/5/90

BUT the total difference is only about .5 percentage difference across the least to most. With each different one less than .3 percentage difference from the next closest. And none being more than .5 off of #2 alloy. With the tin recipe having a BHN of 14.1 and the pewter replacement having a BHN of 14.4 as compared to #2 with BHN of 15.

:grin: I love the Alloy Calculator.:grin:

[scottfire1957]

Well, since you don't really know the composition of your other metals, aside from those you've had examined, does it make that much of a difference?


Edit: point made previously. Mea culpa.

[62chevy]

Just for grins I ran that recipe through the Alloy Calculator. it yields Sn/Sb/Pb of 4.92/4.46/90.4 with .2 Arsenic. Shift that tin to pewter and it becomes 4.63/4.69/90.4 same Arsenic plus .07 Cu so pretty darn close. Up the pewter by 1 oz. to 8 oz and it yields 5.11/4.7/89.9

Me I would stay with the same 7 oz. amount of pewter since it holds the Sn/Sb in balance closer to equal which is what Lyman #2 does at 5/5/90

BUT the total difference is only about .5 percentage difference across the least to most. With each different one less than .3 percentage difference from the next closest. And none being more than .5 off of #2 alloy. With the tin recipe having a BHN of 14.1 and the pewter replacement having a BHN of 14.4 as compared to #2 with BHN of 15.

:grin: I love the Alloy Calculator.:grin:


Yup me too:D and got the same results with the Alloy Calculator. Just amazing.

[RogerDat]

Yup me too:D and got the same results with the Alloy Calculator. Just amazing.

I may not be the smartest guy in the room but I can certainly spot "damn that works great" when experienced people keep saying "works great you should try it". :D

[62chevy]

I may not be the smartest guy in the room but I can certainly spot "damn that works great" when experienced people keep saying "works great you should try it". :D

Amazing isn't it, lol.

[Jevyod]

Well wasn't able to open it...had problems with my excel. Just figured out yesterday and you know what...it is kinda cool!!!!!

[RogerDat]

Well wasn't able to open it...had problems with my excel. Just figured out yesterday and you know what...it is kinda cool!!!!!

Glad to hear you were able to get it to work. Thing is great. There are even a couple of lines at the bottom where you can enter in percentages for your own materials. Like to use one of those lines when I get something a little "odd" like dental foil so I can figure out what standard stuff I can mix in to get the alloy I need out of it.

Also don't forget you can save the open one under a new name File -> Save As. I use one of those copies as an inventory. Makes it easy to see at a glance what I have as a total, and conversely what I don't have. If the whole stash comes out at the bottom as a little light on one alloy or another it lets me concentrate on getting more of that.

I saved off a copy a couple of times to record some mixes of odd ball scrap. Found a way to use some odd ball stuff I scrounged, don't want to forget what I mixed for what. Hint: the grains of the boolit in the bottom section tell me what I used the recipe above for.

[Defcon-One]

First off, your recipe doesn't really work. You'll be light on the Tin and Antimony. Most of these recipes were way off, so I always make my own recipe. (That is the FUN part!)

I'd try this (use a good digital scale):

9 lbs. COWW
2.5 lbs. Linotype
0.513 lbs. Pewter

You'll get 12 pounds of alloy that is about 5% Tin, 5% Antimony and 89.79% Lead. (The other .21% will possibly be an even mix of Copper from the Pewter and Arsenic from the COWW, if they are in there.)

Or try this to be more exact:

9 lbs. Pure Lead
6.35 lbs. Linotype
0.59 lbs. Pewter

You'll get 16 pounds of alloy that is about 5.02% Tin, 5% Antimony and 89.92% Lead. (Maybe .06% Copper from the Pewter, but not enough to matter.)

Either recipe will be so close that you'll never know the difference.

All of my Lyman #2 has XRF tested VERY close to 5, 5, 90 and I use a lot of it.

Take Care,

DC-1

[RogerDat]

Anyone have a hardness for a water drop of the hardness of the COWW recipe from DC-1 for Lyman #2 water dropped? Would expect a BHN of around 15 for that recipe air cooled.

Or hardness for a recipe for something like hardball from WW's & Linotype that is water dropped?
Something along the lines of:

8.5 lbs. COWW
4.5 lbs. Linotype
.0625 Pewter (one ounce)


Should yield 2/6/92 Hardball or so close as to not matter. Would expect a BHN of 14.8 as is

Thinking of casting .44 mag plain base and thought I might want to try water dropped to kick that BHN up. Not thinking that would go to max loads but thought it might be interesting to try WD since might be nice to go over 1100 fps.

But was thinking that might be a waste of alloy for WD. Might be better to use COWW's with 2% tin if I'm going to WD

Thing about scrap linotype is that the actual alloy content is somewhat variable depending on where it is in depletion-replenish cycle.

[David2011]

. . . but isn't the conventional wisdom that more than 2% tin is a waste of good metal? I can see that tin would probably help hold a boolit together in a hunting situation, though.

David

[Defcon-One]

Yep, Lyman #2 is 15 BHN, air cooled.

Hardball gets you there with less Tin, but it is more brittle and a bit harder to cast with. I supplied information for Lyman #2 because that is what he asked for. It is a bit more Tin than you would normally need, but it works great for me in my rifle bullets from .223 to 45-70, with or without gas checks. A balance of Tin and Antimony is also conventional wisdom (Tougher Bullets!).

For my handgun bullets, where I tend to load and shoot a higher volume, I use 2% Sn, 3% Sb, 95% Pb exclusively.

Enjoy,

DC-1


PS: I am not a believer in Water Dropping for hardness. I do not think that it is worth the trouble. I just mix an alloy for the hardness that I want, air cooled, and go. So, I can't help you there.....

[RogerDat]

Conventional wisdom as I understand it (wife will bear witness, I misunderstand much) 2% Sn is all that is required for fill out, but that Sn alloys with Sb in a way that helps enhance the hardening of either metal as compared to on it's own when going for a harder bullet.

COWW's are 2.5 to 3% Sb and with 2% Sn it is as hard as one will need for general use. More tin won't really get you anything in that alloy. Anything above the Sb percentage is pretty much wasted. WW's being the common point of reference = conventional wisdom =< 2% Sn.

If you kick the Sb up to go harder then adding more tin keeps the Sb/Sn alloy in better balance. And helps prevent the alloy from becoming a fragile bullet. You can't bend linotype very far before it snaps because of the 12% Sb making it "hard".

Hardball is 1/2 the Sn/Sb of linotype with BHN of 16, doubling those alloys gives you lino and gets you to BHN of 19, not a lot of gain for a whole lot more expensive alloy BUT if it takes that little bit harder to work for the load.... at least the bullet won't break if you drop it, because of the higher tin percentage keeping it ductile rather than just hard from the Sb. High BHN alloys conventional wisdom is based on a different base alloy, also a common "go to" source being used to meet needs toward the edge conditions. Conventional wisdom is enough tin to not have a bullet that hard break.

One of the reasons for my question is water dropping or the more precise heat treating method both seems like a way to make bullet harder but not more fragile for the same alloy. If I can use a less rich alloy but water drop for 44 mag then I would go that route rather than casting with straight linotype.

[Defcon-One]

Yeah, I agree 100%.

Only thing, I would not cast with straight Linotype, way too hard for me and costly as well, but I get your point on the Water Dropping. I cast for fun and to save money, but I never needed to save bad enough to Water Drop. That's just me....

DC-1

[RogerDat]

We kind of went off on a rabbit trail DC-1 but having read about heat treating and water dropping I see some interesting testing and experimenting has been done. I figure it is part of due diligence to explore all the options. Or maybe I'm just not happy unless I'm poking around something new?

[mongoose33]

Don't get lost in the weeds on trying to make "lyman #2"!

That is an old alloy referenced in the old books anyway and many today do not even use it, what with all the coatings available such as Hi-Tec and powder coating.

Close enough is close enough.

A % either way is not going to make that much difference.

Save your time and money and shoot more softer lead!

I was all hepped up on getting the exact alloy right, then I did some testing out of a couple pistols (I only cast boolits for handguns at this point), and discovered they all shot about the same. Varied powder, varied sizing, all pretty much the same.

I have the Cabine Tree hardness tester and so when I'm whomping up a new batch of alloy in my 20# pot, I'll cast a couple boolits to test at the outset to see if I'm "in the range." Air cooled, dropped on a towel. Something that produces BHN 12-15 is what I want, I usually end up about 12-13.

If I'm too soft on the alloy i just toss (figuratively!) an ingot of Lino in the pot and that takes care of it.

I've started powdercoating and that's how they're finished, so perhaps this would matter more if I were just lubing them.