45-120 buffalo classic load help!

[Pratt4570]

I recently picked up a 45-70 buffalo classic and had it reamed to 45-120. First loads were with hard cast 500gr. Bullets and 27.5Gr. Of trailboss, I know I need softer lead it's what I had on hand. The bullets sounded as if they were tumbling I'm flight, which I have experienced with these in 45-70 around 1600fps+. I have a 500gr. Lee mold (gc) and a 450gr. Lee mold. I also picked up some Jim shockey's gold FFg. I also have some .060 .464 vegetable wads. I'm ordering a compression plugs next week for my Rcbs dies.

Any recommendations would be great.

I'm also going to look into selling some of my lead on hand as I believe it is mixed and too hard, I have read reccomendations for 20-1 and 30-1 alloy. Also how much compression is good and what is unsafe or undercompressed. This is my first venture into black powder cartridge reloading.

[bigted]

:roll: ... well my friend ... you jumped in with both feet as I did. first off I would say welcome to the forum and second id say ... 45-120? and third ... in a light buff classic???

I can completely understand your position as my first BPCR rifle was a very light winchester hiwall [miroku] rifle that began life as a 45-70 and had its chamber reamed to the 45-120 round. this powerhouse along with the deep crescent buttplate helped me understand how exactly to mount the rifle to my shoulder. also I came to understand the importance of shooting standing up or making sure that if seated I had my upper torso in a upright position so my shoulder could roll with the recoil.

I came up with a load of 135 grains of GOEX cartridge powder compressed with a buff arms compression stem around .350 inch. upon the powder I installed a .060 Walters vegi wad and then I loaded the Lyman 457125 boolit that is like the old gubberment boolit and seated it out to touch the rifling beginning. touched it off with a CCI large rifle primer. my lead was some old wheel weights to begin with and then later I bought some lead from a member here that is no longer with us which came between the 20 to 1 and 30 to 1 in hardness mix.

I have never fooled with the Shockeys gold sub but I imagine it would work well. there is now a forum area just below this one that addresses the different blackpowder subs and the ways to load it and you would maybe get some better answers there on the Gold sub powder.

again ... welcome to the forum and I hope you enjoy your new purchase and get the bang outta it that I did. later in life I had the opportunity to get a Shiloh Sharps rifle so chambered and I did get it in this same chamber ... it shoots very well and there isn't a game animal on the planet I would not attempt to take with the load I described above ... however make sure your hat string is sinched up when you touch em off as they will get your attention. :drinks:

[montana_charlie]

First loads were with hard cast 500gr. Bullets and 27.5Gr. Of trailboss,
I also picked up some Jim shockey's gold FFg.I'm ordering a compression plugs next week for my Rcbs dies.

Also how much compression is good and what is unsafe or undercompressed.

This is my first venture into black powder cartridge reloading.
I am not educated in the use of black powder substitutes, but I doubt that it is safe to use a compression die on any of them.

For greater exposure to people who ARE involved in BP substitute propellants, I recommend that you post your questions in the section specifically provided for that.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?228-Black-Powder-Substitutes

You bought yourself a handful when you deepened that chamber ...

CM

[bigted]

musta shot the bugger?

[Pratt4570]

Haven't shot the shockey loads, it took about 103gr. With some softer 450gr lead casts I had. But I need to do homework before I shoot the substitute. I did just order the compression plug and a 24" drop tube from buffaloarms. It might be a week or two before I can get loads done. Life is hecktic switching jobs.

[oldred]

Ok this is a classic example for the question of why bother with a sub? What's the point? While real BP is by far the best choice for many reasons there may also be good reasons as to why someone would rather not use BP such as availability maybe? Or maybe they don't won't to bother with the extra care needed for cleanup of both the gun and the brass but the subs are even worse in this respect. So with a modern gun such as this why not just use a suitable smokeless "sub" since the phony BP is not at all like shooting real BP either, what's the point? Hodgdon lists nine different loads for the 45-120 using a 500 bullet plus even more for 350 and 405 grain all within BP pressure levels and all have none of the drawbacks of any of the subs.

[MT Chambers]

I'd use a full case of real Black Powder and a soft bullet, compress the powder and yer' good to go, no airspace in your loaded round! If that is too much of a good thing, use felt wads to take up the powder space, although using 45/70 charges in a 45/120 makes no sense to me.

[wgr]

may i watch you shoot it:lovebooli

[quickdraw66]

Wow, I bet that sucker kicks like a mule!

[enfield]

why stop at 45-120, I think 577-450 would have been a nice little plinker.

[rfd]

unless hunting godzilla is the task at hand, i dunno why anyone would want the abuse of a .45-120 ... dang, that thing will smart and sting big time! do ya really know what yer doing with the white, black and sub powder? are ya sure about the components and recipes yer either currently loading or thinking about loading? some of yer thinking doesn't sound like yer on a safe path, but best of luck, sir!

[Don McDowell]

[QUOTE=quickdraw66;3246859]Wow, I bet that sucker kicks like a mule![/QUOTE
Have a young fella that did this same thing about 10 years ago. I tried to talk him out of it at the time, but no by god that's the thing to do. A year ago he wanted to come to a little gong match with us, and asked if he could shoot one of our 45-70's. I asked him why he wasn't bringing his 120... his reply was he didn't have enough cases to shoot a match he got ahold of 20 at the time of the chambering job, and after loading and firing those 20 cases, decided it was one of the biggest mistakes he'ld ever made...

[oldred]

[QUOTE=quickdraw66;3246859]after loading and firing those 20 cases, decided it was one of the biggest mistakes he'ld ever made...


Heard that one before! When trying to decide the caliber of my first custom rifle I was at first awed by the 45-120 but had no experience with any of the big 45 cases other than the 45/70 with the exception of an old original Winchester in 45-90 with a few original factory 45-90 rounds. I had that rifle when I was younger and a family member has it today but we always shot 45/70 rounds in it (with the exception of the few factory 45/90 cartridges we had). I spent a lot of Google time following links to discussions of the various 458 caliber rounds, especially everything I could find on that big wicked looking 3 1/4" case that I was set on getting, and it became apparent to me the 45-120 is a troublesome round with far more complaining about it than praising it. Still it's an awesome looking round and a real attention getter but after a lot of consideration I decided to pass on it in favor of one of the more practical lengths, the 45-90. In one discussion of the pros and cons of this massive round one fella put it this way "That big 45-120 case sure is impressive looking to those who don't know any better".

[Lead Fred]

If your not going to use holy black, then use 45/70 cases

[country gent]

A 45-70 case will be almost an 1: to short for that chamber could cause some problems. Might be better to lighten powder charge and a filler to take up space in the right length cases.

[oldred]

A 45-70 case will be almost an 1: to short for that chamber could cause some problems. Might be better to lighten powder charge and a filler to take up space in the right length cases.

What I was thinking also, I have shot a lot of 45/70 in a '90 chamber and even with that much smaller difference there is some small loss of accuracy. It's often said that a 45/70 can be fired in the big chambers and I suppose it will go bang but simply firing and firing with any degree of success are two different things!

[Lead pot]

I had a 120 and shot it for several years, but it weight a little more then 13 pounds and it was a fine shooter, very accurate rifle.
The recoil was hard and if one can't tolerate the recoil they will never get the accuracy from a rifle with that chamber.

[Don McDowell]

Spent a good bit of time in the late 70's early 80's with a C Sharps/Shiloh with the rocky mtn butt and 34 in. barrel chambered in 3 1/4. As with Leadpots rifle the thing weighed the better end of 13 lbs, but was still quite the handful. I don't even want to think about what a handirifle or one of it's clones would be like trying to shoot the 3 1/4 case... Ever wonder why nobody ever rechambers one to 458 lott?? that case is shorter than the 120..

[Lead pot]

The best thing that ever happened to my 3-1/4 was a hang fire that rung the chamber and now it's a wall hanger :) :)

[montana_charlie]

I did just order the compression plug and a 24" drop tube from buffaloarms.
Once again, it would probably be a mistake to compress your loads when using either of the BP substitute powders you have mentioned so far in this thread.

CM

[martinibelgian]

Sheesh - powder capacity is gigantic, and you still want to compress it, in order to get more in there? FWIW, I shoot 577-450, which might have close to the case capacity of that 45-120 - but I only use somewhere between 80 and 85grs of BP. More than enough! And compression? I actually try to make sur ethat the least amount of powder takes up as big a volume as possible...

[Sharpsman]

That combo would be about as useful as a piss ant with a side saddle!!

[Lead Fred]

A 45-70 case will be almost an 1: to short for that chamber could cause some problems. Might be better to lighten powder charge and a filler to take up space in the right length cases.

Several gents here shoot 45/70 cases in their 90s and 120s. I have all 45/70s so dont have empty case problems

[oldred]

Several gents here shoot 45/70 cases in their 90s and 120s. I have all 45/70s so dont have empty case problems

I am one of those that has shot a bunch of 45/70 in the '90 chamber, both in that old Winchester and a few rounds in my newer custom built highwall type rifle but I have never shot a 45-120. Still there is much more of a problem with '120 than the '90 with the shorter 45/70 cases, when fired in the slightly longer '90 chamber the bullet still has to make that jump but the case is not all that much too short so the bullet is never completely unsupported but I think that might not be true in that really long 45-120 chamber. For hunting, plinking or otherwise just shooting offhand there does not seem to be any appreciable accuracy loss when using the 45/70 in the '90 chamber, although it will show up when target shooting, but I seriously doubt that would be the same situation with that huge 45-120 chamber since the projectile would almost certainly enter the rifling at a slight angle. Of course having not shot a 45/70 cartridge in the '120 chamber I am only speculating but I honestly don't see how it could be otherwise?

[bigted]

I have had two 120 rifles and never found the need to shoot a 45-70 case in either one. if you need to lighten the recoil then maybe sell the rifle and buy one that better fits your needs.

I currently own a Shiloh in the 120 chamber and cant imagine any round shooting real black powder being any better of a game round. it is an impressive round in your hand, desk, or in a rifle.

my suggestion is to fill that case with 120 grains of 1F or 2F powder and cap it off with a 400ish grain boolit lubed with a real good BP lube and sparked with a regular large rifle primer and let er buck.

learning to master a heavy recoiling rifle is a trick but once there you can do some good work with the kickin bugger. still and all I do not shoot more then around 20 rounds in a setting. and I always maintain a straight posture along with the attitude that my shoulder can and will give with the recoil ... if you try to get western with such a beast ... it will hurt you and very quickly.

shoot it with real black or sell it and get the rifle you want to shoot and you will be better off both in the short run and the long. life is too short to be beat up with a macho rifle when you limp home when others are not watchin.

[bigbore52]

I shoot both the 45/120 and the 577/450 and have done so for many many years...100gns of FF is adequate in the 120 while 87gns FF is suitable for the 577/450..there's no need to compress as 100 gns in the 120 will just about sit to the base of the projectile (500gn postell) and placing a lube wad under that will see it nice and tight. Contrary to opinion by some who may have never fired one - that load does not kick like a mule and for me perfectly suits my rifle, handles well - I can easily shoot 50+ rounds at a time through either and often do without needing a shoulder reconstruct.

As for the Martini, because it is a bottle neck case, with 87 gns you need some form of filling on top of the powder such as cotton wool or whatever you chose but again, there's no need to compress it either as long as you take up the space so the powder sits on the primer for proper ignition and there's no empty space under the projectile...I now use a felt wad which is much easier than working out how much cotton fibre to put in....you can get felt sheets of assorted thicknesses from Hardy-Hanson in the UK and stamp your own at a very competitive price and work out your own needs......but again, there's no need with the 45/120 and 100 gns FF...it fits the case perfectly...I often shoot the same projectile through both and neither recoil as much as other rifles I have....to me, when a BP load goes off, I find it pushes more than detonates like modern NC powders do and are easier on the shoulder - others may see it different - Now as for cleaning, yup, that's an issue but again, that's half the fun of sitting down reeking of BP soot with a few cold frothies at the cleaning bench following a day at the range knowing you've done your bit and contributed admirably to global warming.... :)

Take them for what they are....BP rifles..they are built for a particular load and don't need to be overloaded or compressed - so why stress them and your shoulder, just doesn't make sense to me??...my two cents worth FWIW

[martinibelgian]

As for the Martini, because it is a bottle neck case, with 87 gns you need some form of filling on top of the powder such as cotton wool or whatever you chose

I 'll actually state that you don't even need any form of filler. I know, the internet claims that it is dangerous to load BP with airspace. However, Greener in one of his books advocates a partial load without any filler for use in express rifles when the correct granulation isn't available. The man probably in his time forgot more about BP than we know today - so I gave it a try. After all, he does seem to be more knowledeable than the 'net...

85grs of Fg powder, card wad under bullet, air as a filler - works just fine: no explosions, no chamber ringing, no weird happenings, and reloading much simplified.
Nowadays, I've migrated to shooting PP, but even then there is a bit of airspace in 577-450. Probably shot 1000+ rounds in different original rifles, without anything undesireable happening. Another internet myth....


FWIW - shooting the big boys isn't necessarily punishment - but that buffalo classic weighs about 8 pounds, I believe: that's 2 pounds less than a military Martini, and that one will kick the snot out of you when you stuff it full of powder (easy to get in 100gr uncompressed), I think I once tried 110 of Fg, and that was not pleasant to shoot... Accuracy also was pretty lousy, so no reason to continue that way.

[bigbore52]

Yup, will agree with you about the air space as early on did the same thing with my Martini without any issues but on odd occasion did get some incomplete ignitions - changed primers but still experienced same problem......may or may not have been the cause but switched to fillers easy enough and it never occurred again but accuracy improved greatly so who knows?

There's no hard and fast rules as to what loads you must use in the 45/120 - each gun has it's own sweet spot and it's testing your own rifle that will tell you what that is....BP is very forgiving in that regard. Do your load development and record each variable - you'll be pleasantly surprised when you find the best load

...one reference source I would recommend is "Shooting Buffalo Rifles Of the Old West" by Venturino...he doesn't specifically critique the 45/120 like other cases as I recall like the 45/90 etc mainly due as he says to the 45/120 appearing after the Bison were gone but he does mention it together with answering a lot of the questions the OP asks.

That's just one of a number of reference sources available but would be a handy start....

Good shooting whatever way you go....

[martinibelgian]

Never had any ignition issues - and seeing how easy it is to ingite BP, I don't think the airspace would be the cause. As to accuracy, I'm not complaining - those rifles shoot about as well as I can use the - rather rudimentary - sights, which means that if I'm holding my tongue just right, I'll be keeping them inside the 9-ring of the 25m ISSF pistol target at 100m, with a few outside, nut-behind issues of course.

[smoked turkey]

I have just purchased a Sharps 45-120. I have read the good, the bad and the ugly on this thread. I am anxious to give it a go. Thanks to everyone who posted because all of it added to my knowledge of shooting the beast. As an aside I have posted on the Want to Buy section that I need brass. So if anyone has gotten rid of their hard kicking rifle and has the brass shoot me a pm and perhaps we can do each other some good. Thanks.

[Don McDowell]

So if anyone has gotten rid of their hard kicking rifle and has the brass shoot me a pm and perhaps we can do each other some good. Thanks.

Captec shows they have it in stock and ready to ship http://www.captechintl.com/proddetail.php?prod=45120SH100pcs

[smoked turkey]

Thanks. I will look into it. I was hoping to find some used stuff here but it is looking like new stuff must be in my future.

[Don McDowell]

Even if someone had used brass they were willing to part with, I seriously doubt they would let it go for less than what they paid for it, and those 3 1/4 cases have cost the better part of 3$ for a very long time.. Easier just to jump into new brass, and there you have the choice between Norma ( if you can find the full length stuff) and Captec/Jamison, and they have been out of stock until just a couple of weeks ago.

[oldred]

Midway has Norma 45-120 brass in stock now for $2 each ($200.99 for 100 pieces or $42.99 for 20 pieces) and Track of the Wolf has Starline 45-120 brass in stock now for for $2.50 each.

[Don McDowell]

Starline doesn't make 3 1/4 brass.

[oldred]

Starline doesn't make 3 1/4 brass.


You're right, my mistake it's Bell not Starline that TOTW has in stock. All the 45-70 and 45-90 brass I have gotten from them was starline and the 45-100 I looked at is also starline so I "assumed" without looking that the 45-120 was also. I had just ordered some 45-90 brass a few days ago and at the time had noticed that the 45-100 was also still in stock so I did a quick check of the site to see if they still had it on hand before making that reply, all I did was check availability and pricing and as I said "assumed" it was also Starline. Having never used Bell brass I know nothing about it, Starline is what I look for and I have had really good luck with it.

[smoked turkey]

Thanks to all. Looks like Midway will get the nod. I plan to check with Midsouth, and Buffalo Arms too before I make the deal. I have new Lyman dies coming. Not sure how long before the C Sharps will be here. I would like to be ready when it arrives. I am going to cast some 500 grainers with 20:1 or 30:1 lead/tin since that seems to be recommended. I have been using my Ruger No.1 in 45-70. It works fine but wanted to try either the Sharps or the Shiloh. I don't think I have to justify that to anyone here as you are all a good bunch of enablers. :grin:

[Don McDowell]

Red if you get a chance order up some of the Captec/Jamison 45-90 brass, it's not likely you'll go back to Starline.

[montana_charlie]

Red if you get a chance order up some of the Captec/Jamison 45-90 brass ...
Didn't Jamison take over the operation from Bell?
When they first started, they had some odd lots of Bell brass for sale.

[Don McDowell]

As far as I know they bought some of Bell's machinery. But that was a long time ago, and a couple of different owners ago. Folks that aren't using Captec's JBA brass are only cheating themselves...

[oldred]

If I hadn't already ordered some new Starline brass I would give that one a try, I will certainly keep it in mind for next time.

[bigted]

in my experience ... the 120 [3 1/4"] is a terrible thing to feed. it is hungry all the time and longs to be stuffed with copious amounts of powder and then slings tons of lead down range with every yank of the trigger.

wish I had the time and inclination to pull mine out to play with but other things have stolen my thunder for now. ya'll have a ball with your 120's. they are a hoot to play with and the expression on faces at the range is priceless ... never had anybody fail to want to try it tho. except that is ... the folks that didn't quite get it tucked in before yankin the trigger ... they usually say ... thanks ... as they rub their shoulders and walk away ... I just smile and keep makin smoke with it.

[brad925]

First thing you do is take the butt plate off and fill it with lead shot. It will bring the weight up to almost 12lbs. It will make a big difference in the recoil. Been there done that. As far as loads. Try whatever goes bang. If your gonna use pyrodex cuz thats what is easiest to get then use it. It works well. Just make sure to clean it well. Windex with vinigar works good. The vinigar in it neutralizes the salts. Black works equally good as well but here its $10 a pound more than pyrodex so its partially a dollar and cents thing the other is its really hard to find. And smokeless powder is getting harder to find too. If you can get pyrodex select then i would recommend that. The granules are more uniform. Good luck and have fun.

[cajun shooter]

You sir went from the 1st grade to the 12th grade with no stops in between. There are a ton of books and printed articles that you should have read before going the way you did.
I would recommend that you purchase another H&R BC while they are still available and leave it at the 45-70 loading. I would then tell you to read all the books you can find on BPCR and regular BP rifle shooting. Next, go to any matches you are able to go to and watch, don't start asking questions right away or you will be dismissed as a looney tune. See what equipment the shooters are using and how they use it. Don't buy compression dies and start out with those type loads. Start on the low end and load and shoot a few hundred before going any futher. Learn to crawl before you walk.
You can't buy a Shiloh or C Sharps and all the needed equipment that it takes to run them and show up as a good BP rifle shooter. It does not work that way. From reading your postings, you have a lot to learn in just the reloading area much less the shooting part.
Ignore postings that tell you to shoot Pyrodex rather than regular black as those persons have no knowledge about what they are speaking of.
They have a old saying that applies to life and not just any one thing, it's called the Hole Theory and it goes like this, When you find yourself in a hole, STOP DIGGING!!! Later David