BFR Barrel Shortening

[brasshog]

I recently contracted a near fatal case of 45-70 envy and have ended up with yet another one :grin: This time it's a BFR 45-70 with a ten inch barrel. While the gun is impressive and definitely a conversation starter it is slightly unwieldy to me. I am considering having Magnum Research shortening the barrel ($192.40 plus shipping there) to a manageable 5-6 inches. This revolver's main use is as backup to my high-wall and will almost exclusively be used for hog/bear protection hence why I'm pondering cutting the barrel down. I tend to hunt in close quarters in dense swamps/woods where the maximum shot is fifty yards or so. I have had to shoot hogs at 5-15 feet before and a long barrel is not desirable when I can barely see that far due to the density of the woodlands. Also, I tend to camp in these areas and wonder about the length of the barrel inside a small tent. I know that ballistics will suffer slightly and chasing the "perfect" load will become harder to find since the 45-70 cartridge usually likes slower powders with long barrels and not fast powders in a short barrel. I am also considering having it fitted for the 450 Marlin cylinder while it's away. It will look something like the photo below. Please give me your thoughts on this idea. Thanks.

138455

[enfield]

Is it possible to burn the amount of powder a 45-70 case holds in a 6 to 10 inch handgun barrel ? what is the velocity, energy advantage over something like a 454 ?

[kencha]

It's your gun, I'm all for you doing as you would like. It would certainly be an interesting revolver.

Sounds to me like a 460/500 would have been a better option if you were wanting that large of a backup gun, and is essentially what you'd be turning the BFR into.

If you like doing load development, you'll definitely have a lot of opportunity, as I don't think I'd want to shoot any normal rifle loads out of it, unless its being used as a flamethrower too.

The 450-Marlin thing I don't understand. If it is "just-because", that's a good enough reason for me, but I can't imagine any other reason to do that. Well, maybe if you're set up for reloading the Marlin and not the 45-70. Otherwise, what would you be gaining?

[brasshog]

The 450 marlin is "just because" since it will be there in their hands and a cost saving rather than shipping it later and/or having down time. I like the versatility idea. Generally speaking...a factory 300gr JHP traveling at 2000 fps in a rifle generally gets about 1500 fps in this type of pistol. I am thinking of using 45-60 loads as a "special" round for plinking and full throttle for defense. I got the BFR in on trade and since my rifle is the same caliber it just seemed like a match made in heaven. I love handgun hunting but usually use my contender for that. From my research you can burn alot of the powder in a ten inch barrel if it's a little slow in burn rate. Finding a faster burning powder that will shoot well in a shorter barrel is the trick with this caliber. My goal is somewhere around a 475gr boolits WFN-GC at around 1200 fps in the pistol. That should be near a 3/4-full load for power. Insofar as the 454 vs 45-70 debate goes it's alot like the 9mm vs 45 debate on some forums lol. A 45-70 can achieve 454 velocities at about 1/3 rd the pressure making for a longer life of the gun. Also, the 45-70 can be loaded to half of the 454 pressures while surpassing it insofar as energy goes all the while with a bigger boolit(460 vs 452). I can load up to 500gr in the 45-70 for penetration if needed. The 454 isn't that versatile. Apparently there is a lot of heated debate about this idea on other forums. I have fired a blackhawk converted to 500 Linebaugh with a four inch barrel that a buddy had John build for "mountain lion defense". That is a hand full and I can't wait to try this BFR out to see how versatile it will be no matter what I decide.

[brasshog]

Here is some information from the Buffalo Bore Website. I have added a rough estimation of the pistol velocity from the same load that would be as fair as I can come up with atm. Again this is with a lot less pressure. The 45-70 starts to shine after 360gr loads since there are none for the 454 casull. Even by cutting the carrel down I should easily surpass the 454 in penetration and energy. A 475 gr boolit at 1200 fps is 1518 energy. A full load in a 52oz 454 Casull Ruger Super Redhawk kicks decent. I wonder what a 475 gr kicks like in a 72oz BFR ? Probably less I imagine.
454 casull 360gr Buffalo Bore 1425 fps/ME 1623
45-70 rifle 350gr Buffalo Bore 2150 fps/ME 3591
45-70 Pistol 350gr Buffalo Bore 1600 fps/ME 1989-Estimated

[lar45]

I have a 10" 45-70 BFR and really like it. 44Man helped me out with powder selection to get a load dialed in real quick.
I've pushed 405's up to 1750fps out of the 10" barrel and still got 1.5" groups at 50yds. It was controllable, but not fun to shoot at that level.
I also have one of the 5.5" 45/454/410 BFRs. Shooting 325gn 454 ammo in it is rather pleasant. So I would imagine that a 45-70 in similar shape and size should be rather enjoyable to shoot.
I'd say go for it, have it cut down and get the 450 cylinder also.

[Whiterabbit]

405 grainboolit at 1750 fps. You are a stronger man than I. I shoot my 460 BFR extensively. My loads are:

200 grain bullet at well over 2500 fps (barnes, and for some reason the gun shoots fast)
290 grain bullet at 2000 fps (also barnes, cool load, wish the bullets didn't cost over a dollar a piece)
425 grain boolit at 1430 fps, my go-to load, 300 fps slower than your load!
500 grain boolit at 1370 fps
590 grian boolit (the Lead Zeppelin, coolest name for a boolit deisgn), 1175 fps
740 grian boolit, 930 fps, easy recoil, but tumbled.

this is with the 10 inch barrel too. Yes it is unwieldy. That's why I bought a vaquero pair. all the fun in a smaller package, and I can get it in blue. For some reason, I cannot bring myself to sell the BFR.

---------------------

For an extra hundred bucks MR will replace your barrel, and send you your old one back at your request. That might be the best option. Especially if you have the money for a marlin cylinder which IMO is a waste of money. New barrel plus your old one puts you $250 ahead of a barrel cut down and a marlin cylinder. Even if you have to pay a gunsmith to switch back and forth, you can still cheaply go back and forth when the mood suits.

That's what I will do if I ever go down that path. For now? Better to customize the rugers and leave the BFR as a "movie" gun (looper).

[Whiterabbit]

I find the unwieldiness not a problem. I only wish it were "wieldy" for carry for hunting, there's just no practical way for spot-and-stalk. Not really. But for happy-fun range time, total non-issue.

[Whiterabbit]

as to "vs 454" argument, it's a non issue. The 454 in ANY gun is a short cylinder. That limits your boolit weight. The BFR is 3" long in cylinder. You run out of wrist strength before running out of "go", either in boolit weight or in pressure, or both if you are a sadist. I could have put 10% more powder AT LEAST in my 740 grain boolit test loads and not been overpressure. And if that wasn;t enough, I could just continue to seat the boolit out.

Here's food for thought. If you could convert a long cylinder BFR to 500 linebaugh (MR refuses to do it):
Linebaugh case: 1.4"
m33 ball bullet: 1.6" from nose to cannelure

So you could bloop m33 ball from a pistol with ease using H110 or 4198 if set-up right. That's how much cylinder you have to work with. It's pretty amazing to think about.

So, "vs 454"? nope. When the 454 bloops at 450 or 500 grains, that 45/70 BFR goes right up he chain with the 500 BP cartridge boolit, the lead zeppelin, or the NEI beast that shoots what looks like a wadcutter over 700 grains, and you still wont see the nose when the round is chambered. in a contest of sheer might, the BFR will win because it's more capable in weight.

It's the advantage of the X-frame, too. even 500 S&W, you just run out of case capacity as the boolit grows large, and the BFR lets you seat out as needed.

[Whiterabbit]

last thing, calculatons on recoil (because I have never shot a 4" linebaugh and dream of one) suggest that the impulse and overall force of a 4" linebaugh is actually greater than a 4.7 lb BFR (5 pounds fully loaded) shooing some really have 45/70 loads. so if you can tolerate that Blackhawk linebaugh, your 45/70 BFR should be a ***** cat.

[brasshog]

I fired the 45-70 today with some stiff 350gr JRN's. It was a complete blast but now that I am not flinching I can work on the accuracy some lol. It's way more pleasant than a short barreled Linebaugh ! The same load out of my cresent steel butt padded rifle is a little punishing to say the least.

[taco650]

44man to the white courtesy phone...

[dubber123]

[QUOTE=Whiterabbit;3240937]

Here's food for thought. If you could convert a long cylinder BFR to 500 linebaugh (MR refuses to do it):
Linebaugh case: 1.4"
************************************************** *********************************************
Whiterabbit, the .500 Linebaugh shoots .510" bullets/boolits, and MR's .50 cal barrels are .500" Probably why they won't do it.

[taco650]

I fired the 45-70 today with some stiff 350gr JRN's. It was a complete blast but now that I am not flinching I can work on the accuracy some lol. It's way more pleasant than a short barreled Linebaugh ! The same load out of my cresent steel butt padded rifle is a little punishing to say the least.

If you do shorten the barrel, I'd get it ported the same time.

[UBER7MM]

What about your hearing? A sound suppressor defeats the usefulness of a short barrel. Hmm....

[Old Coot]

Just sell the darn thing and buy a SW629 or RRH in 4" 41, 44, 45Colt, 454 and be done with it . There ain't a cartridge in the world that you can shoot from a handgun that will kill worth a darn if you do not place the bullet in a vital spot! WDM Bell proved that a 6,5x54 Manlicher killed elephants just as well as TWO (2) 450/400 ROUNDS HITTING THE ANIMAL AT THE SAME TIME. Bullet energy is only good for arguing about cartridges in print or verbally. It is the bullet that kills. In order to stop a charging whatever you have to break bones, or interrupt the neural pathways. You CANNOT do that IF YOU DON'T HIT THEM! So all you guys who love these pointless useless arguments about bullet energy, just get over it. If you don't hit it it don't count.
Brodie

[Whiterabbit]

Whiterabbit: Here's food for thought. If you could convert a long cylinder BFR to 500 linebaugh (MR refuses to do it):
Linebaugh case: 1.4"
************************************************** *********************************************
Whiterabbit, the .500 Linebaugh shoots .510" bullets/boolits, and MR's .50 cal barrels are .500" Probably why they won't do it.

They have a custom shop. They could easily make a .510 cal barrel and ream open the cylinder to .510" or larger, if they felt it was safe (in the corporate sense) to do so. My point is they do not feel that it is safe (in the corporate sense) to make that modification. Same goes for any .510 cal regardless of pressure. It's the diameter they object to (in the corporate sense).

[Whiterabbit]

Is it possible to burn the amount of powder a 45-70 case holds in a 6 to 10 inch handgun barrel ? what is the velocity, energy advantage over something like a 454 ?

I'm not sure anyone really addressed this one. Let me try:

In the BFR, there is no velocity or energy advantage of any 45 caliber round (.450 to .460, any of them) to the 454 or 460 S&W cartridges on other MFG's frames. In the case of the 454 and 460, both available on Ruger and S&W frames, it is very easy to use powders capable of reaching the 65ksi limit for light bullets to generate maximum velocity. The BFR can easily match this, but is not an advantage. Any technical advantage can be matched on the other MFG frames (barrel length consideration, BC gap, etc).

Because energy is a squared function of speed, there is no energy advantage either. You can't ever take a heavy boolit plodding slow and (on paper) match the energy figures of a light bullet zipping along at twice the speed of sound or more.

The BFR advantage is the ability to seat long, heavy boolits that simply do not physically fit in their smaller framed brothers. After about 400 grians in the 454, and about 500 grains in the 460, standard and even unstandard powders are not really able to be loaded into the case in sufficient volume to reach the pressure cap, and velocity suffers.

For most of us, this is not a problem.

But even given arbitrary pressure caps, there are limits we naturally hit anyways with these cartridges in these cases and these cylinder length limits that are just not the case when these cartridges are loaded in a contender or a Ruger #1, and even the BFR. The fact is if you have a Ruger #1, the throat will end before you seat to 3" OAL, so the BFR even has a case capacity advantage over even the Ruger #1. This means more lead without sacrificing powder capacity.

This is the true advantage of the BFR in the 45 caliber (any of them). It will not show up in energy figures, and unlikely to show up in a meaningful way in velocity figures. And if that advantage is not desired by the shooter, then it's really the wrong gun to buy. Because other frames do it with less weight, more portability, etc.

But if you like Chuckin' Pumpkins and shooting Lead Zeppelins, no one does it like BFR.

[brasshog]

Hi guys. Whiterabbit defined why I like the BFR in 45-70 very well. I simply like having a pistol that matches my rifle and I like tossing big chunks of lead. I have been hitting the range about once a week and each time the BFR is with me. I fire about 10-15 rounds of full loads through it and have actually gotten past the whole "it's big and massive" issue but I would still like a shorter barrel. I',m trying to give the ten inch barrel a chance to grow on me but so far it hasn't. My groups are decent (five shot= 4-6 inches at 15yds) with 350gr JRN but my range absolutely will not let me fire it on the rifle range without a scope on it so 25 yards is the maximum range atm. Once I order some dies I'll try my 475 grainer boolits in it. Old coot...I have owned a 629, RSB, and RSR in short barrels in those calibers. Although I still have a sweet spot for many of those calibers I just outgrew them after many many years of shooting and reloading them. I'll perhaps never own another model 29 in a 2" 44 mag with wooden finger grips for firing hog loads. Unpleasant to say the least. Insofar as magna-porting goes I purposefully choose guns without it. Magna-porting is way too loud for my hunting purposes. I once and only once fired a 454 that was magna-ported without hearing protection. Since I have hearing loss I can't hunt with ear protection in AND hear the game. I am currently looking to solve this problem but have had no luck as of yet. Thanks.

[Whiterabbit]

So, I'm not saying that I wouldn;t want a shorter barrel either sometime down the line, but here is the conclusion I came to:

Cutting the barrel of the BFR is trying to turn it into a FA or a ruger. And it's just not ever gonna be like that because it's a long cylinder. If I cut my BFR to the EJRH, the OAL is still about as long as a 7.5" barrel ruger. Hardly a "packing" pistol. So if it's gonna be too heavy and big to pack around anyways, may as well keep the longer barrel.

So far, that's the conclusion I keep coming to. Which is also why, if I ever shorten the barrel, it'll be for almost double the price so I can have two barrels, and put the long one back on if I realize I made a mistake.

[cal50]

Chop it!
To the saw!!!!!!




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJnivVRtTHA

[EDG]

Why not have a new barrel and cylinder installed for a 2.1" long case in a 50 caliber?

[brasshog]

I shoot and reload for the 45-70. The BFR is my 1885's companion on hunts and I don't think that I want to carry two different calibers but I do like your idea.

[Whiterabbit]

you'll need ot rebore your 1885 to 50 cal too! :D

[44man]

The hardest gun ever was the BFR 45-70 and mine is 10". Powder choices drove me nuts. Most did not give me what I wanted--a revolver to out shoot every rifle. I made it happen with 1/2" groups at 100 and a group of 2-1/2" at 500 yards. It is amazing to put a 1" target at 100 and take it off, just need to see the thing.
Knowing how hard it was to find a powder for 10", I can't imagine making a shorter barrel work and a .450 Marlin will never come in.
I found ONLY SR 4759 worked for me. I stocked up heavy on the powder. It also works in a 30-30 pistol and my 7BR and 7R.
The gun is Huge of course but it is easy to shoot off hand once you get used to it.
Now to carry it, I use a shoulder holster, Uncle mikes no. 13 made for the scoped super tender fits perfect, with the Ultra Dot on it.
The I install a sling stud in the bottom of the grips of all my revolvers and use the 6' utility sling.
The gun hangs at my hand when walking with my shoulder holding the weight. Also an aid to aim by just pushing forward on the sling a little.148367 This is how I do it, drill and tap for the stud and use a spacer for the rubber grip thickness.
A little tough to cut the rubber and steel liner. Picture makes it look a little crooked but it is not. Might be the best thing I ever did.
Watch shooting from canvas bags, I put a piece of buckskin on the bag or the stud will open the bag.
Anyway I would NOT shorten my guns. There are too many carry guns out there to fool with a great gun.
I don't see the point of a .500 S&W or .500 Linebaugh in 4" either, it will never be accurate except at bear breath distances.
Even with the 1 in 14" twist of the BFR, you still need spin up.

[brasshog]

44man ... I like that mod alot. I haven't made up my mind as of yet. I think that the shorter barrel is "purtier" and more pleasing to the eye but I'm still developing a decent load and enjoying the accuracy. I doubt that I will ever make the mistake of firing it again from the bench with top end #2 loads. Punishment was at my limit there. The ten inch barrel seems to lend itself to good stability off hand. I originally purchased this handgun for close up bear protection but it seems that I may end up using it as my sole hunting firearm this year to really get a feel for it in the woods. Most of my shots are under fifty yards and usually a lot closer. I will most likely wait until spring next year so that I can make a sound judgement on what will work for me before altering it. I started this thread to get everyone else's idea and knowledge before I went off on some hair brained idea and spent money messing with something that may not need to be messed with just because it wasn't "what I thought I wanted". I appreciate all of the input from everyone. Keep it coming.

[44man]

Well, it is sure not a bear protection gun! But it is as much fun to be put in a package and is a great hunting one to boot.
Now other calibers are OK a little shorter, my .475 and .500 JRH BFR's are both 7-1/2" I would not think of shorter. Yet my old SBH, .44 is 10-1/2".
You will get it to shoot but if you cut, all that load work will go out the window so you will start all over.
Yes, I love long barrels, never went with looks or feel, just performance.
If you find some 4759, I have loads for many boolit weights.

[brasshog]

Let me define "bear protection" here. It includes these smallish black bears here in Florida. There have been two incidents in Sanford this past month (ten miles apart) one of which a women got dragged out of her garage. They apparently have gotten desperate or brazen enough to come into your car's garage, grab you, and drag your butt out kicking and screaming to the woods for an impropmtu dinner reservation that your not aware of. In that case the husband was able to scare the bear enough that he let go of the victim and ran off. I would rather scare him with something of large caliber instead of a 9mm carry gun lol. I don't live in grizzly territory but apparently the bears here think it's a buffet on people lately lol. At 250lbs it's small by bear standards but big as a man and could do you real harm if caught off guard in the woods. I'll call around and see if I can get my hands on some 4759 locally and appreciate the information and comments. Thanks.

Here is an example of what I mean...the 7th bear killed after attacking someone
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/bears-tested-after-woman-attacked-in-lake-mary-garage/25464444

[44man]

Even a mean dog can scare heck out of you, let alone a 250# bear.

[brasshog]

44man have you heard of IMR 7625, SR 4759, and PB being cancelled per handloader magazine (IMR representative)? That is going to make SR 4759 disappear before I can get a good amount.

[44man]

44man have you heard of IMR 7625, SR 4759, and PB being cancelled per handloader magazine (IMR representative)? That is going to make SR 4759 disappear before I can get a good amount.
Yes, scared me bad so I had Midsouth take a back order for me. I didn't think they would when I called but they did and I got 16# more. Took some time but it came.
Hodgdon doesn't know how they are hurting us, they call the powders "old technology". I found nothing to replace it.
Maybe if they got a million calls complaining, they would bring it back, I called and complained but am only one.

[KenH]

I have a question here about the idea of a BFR with the same caliber/shell as the rifle. In the case of a 45-70, do you use the same loads from BFR to the rifle? If the rifle requires one load, and BFR requires a different load, seems like it would/could be more confusing to keep the same brass, but with different loads separate? Even with different bullets load so you could visually tell difference - seems different caliber would be easier?

Now please do understand, I'm NOT criticizing anything here, I am just trying to learn and understand.

Ken H>

[44man]

Sometimes, the rifle can use about any powder but sometimes what you use in the revolver will work in the rifle too.
Best to get the handgun working then try in the rifle. It is harder the other way around.