Use of Round Nose Boolits in Model 1892 Winchester

[terryt]

Hi:

Does anyone use round nose boolits in the tube magazine and do you feel it is safe?

I have always used flat nose and have been told that round nose boolits are safe as well.

Thanks,

Terryt

[Artful]

in my experience I used RN in 38 spl/357 mag Rossi with out issue.
358311
http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/Sketches/lyman%20mold%20358311%20157_gr_sketch.gif

[MaLar]

I use the above bullet (358311) RN cast is the only thing my B92 will feed.
I have been doing it for years, but I only load with 6grns of Unique.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The 1886 was considered safe with the .45-70 government bullet, which sometimes caused explosions in the 1881 Marlin, until Marlin took to fitting this large case with a small rifle primer, which was probably deep-seated too. I think Winchester got away without this by means of Mason's cartridge hook, which dragged the cartridge onto the carrier, permitting the column of cartridges to be preloaded by a weaker magazine spring. I've never examined a 92 that close, but I don't believe it uses this.


Nonetheless a round-nosed lead bullet isn't nearly as likely to indent the primer as a pointed and/or jacketed one, and this is a light recoiling rifle. It is very unlikely to happen at the first shot, and I believe that if noses aren't getting flattened, primers aren't going to be indented. Why not try a dummy cartridge or two, with a thin card collar around the neck of a live round to centre it, and see if it dents a primer that can't ignite powder?

[blixen]

Has there ever been a documented case of a chain fire in a tube magazine with round-nose lead bullets? Or any bullets? Not looking for a flame, just curious. I've got two tube fed 30-30s.

[knifemaker]

I have used round nose Hornady bullets in my Marlin 1895 45/70 caliber without any problems and that rifle has heavy recoil since I load the 350 gr. bullets up to 1900 fps. When using a rimmed cartridge, the back end of the cartridge sets higher then the nose of the bullet due to the rim at the rear of the cartridge and the nose of the bullet behind contacts the cartridge in front slightly below the primer, not dead center on the primer. Lay two rimmed cartridges on a flat surface, one behind the other, and you will see where the round nose touches the base of the cartridge in front.
I have heard others say it is dangerous, but have never seen any evidence to support that statement of a chain reaction taking place with round bullet noses and rimmed cartridges as is used in most lever actions.

[clum553946]

You might find that with round nose bullets the overall length may be a little too long to feed properly in an older Win 1892

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Has there ever been a documented case of a chain fire in a tube magazine with round-nose lead bullets? Or any bullets? Not looking for a flame, just curious. I've got two tube fed 30-30s.

Yes, in the US Army trials of the 1881 Marlin, although as noted above, the use of small and I believe deep-set primers cured it in time for civilian sales. It was close to wiped out when the 1886 Winchester, better and cheaper, came along. But there was an acrimonious correspondence when Winchester, as a result, reverted to large primers in the .45-70 ammunition they made.

I am a long way from my books at the moment. But I have an "American Rifleman" from, I believe, 1968. It illustrates an exploded .45 Alaskan Winchester 71, which cost the user part of his hand. My memory is uncertain, but I think those bullets had round lead noses, either exposed or lead bullets. That again was a far more heavily recoiling rifle than the 92.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I have used round nose Hornady bullets in my Marlin 1895 45/70 caliber without any problems and that rifle has heavy recoil since I load the 350 gr. bullets up to 1900 fps. When using a rimmed cartridge, the back end of the cartridge sets higher then the nose of the bullet due to the rim at the rear of the cartridge and the nose of the bullet behind contacts the cartridge in front slightly below the primer, not dead center on the primer. Lay two rimmed cartridges on a flat surface, one behind the other, and you will see where the round nose touches the base of the cartridge in front.
I have heard others say it is dangerous, but have never seen any evidence to support that statement of a chain reaction taking place with round bullet noses and rimmed cartridges as is used in most lever actions.

I think you ought to get away with this, although I would want them to be rather more rounded than, for example, the Postell nose shape. and I wouldn't do it with round nosed FMJ bullets, if such a thing there is. I know where the nose would sit when everything is static. Remember, though, that the bullets move momentarily at each shot, and there is a possibility that the nose may be trapped somewhere else when they come to rest.

The French, for safety with jacketed bullets in the tube-magazine Lebel, gave it an angle part-way along the case body, so that it sits at an angle that normally only a much more carrot-shaped case could. But when they took to the use of pointed bullets, about the same time as the US and Britain, they put an annular groove around the outside of the primer, to catch any point in danger of moving inwards.

[runfiverun]

lay a couple of loaded rounds on a table and look,, does the nose hit the primer?
no? shoot em.
yes? then don't.

[pietro]

Has there ever been a documented case of a chain fire in a tube magazine with round-nose lead bullets? Or any bullets?



The only thing I found - it's unclear whether the cartridges in the magazine exploded from the recoil that split the barrel, or if the barrel splitting caused the cartridges to explode.

http://www.downeastgunworks.com/salvaging-a-uberti-model-1876/

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/muleequestrian/Bulletmaking/76project1.jpg

.

[Char-Gar]

Whether or not you will get a chain fire in a tubular magazine depends on two factor;

1. Whether or now you have a high primer. All primers should be seated slightly below the case head.

2. The amount of recoil generated. What can be shot in a 38 Special, or a mild 30-30 will be different from what can be shot in a 45-70.

The original 30 WCF factory loads were round nosed. Lyman 311291 is a blunt round nose and was designed for the 30 WCF well over a hundred years ago and has been used with success and now chain fires in the magazine. I use it myself.

I would not use a RN bullet in a 45-70 lever gun, but would in a 30-30 or lesser round.

[terryt]

Hi:
Thanks for all the reply's.

Terryt

[Artful]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?263616-lever-action-magazine-explosions

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?179497-RN-bullets-in-levergun/page2&highlight=magazine+tube+explosion

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45773

[Dan Cash]

Has there ever been a documented case of a chain fire in a tube magazine with round-nose lead bullets? Or any bullets? Not looking for a flame, just curious. I've got two tube fed 30-30s.

I have never read of one with rifles using center fire Berdan or Boxer primers. I suspect that pointed or even round nose bullets may have set of earlier inside primed cartridges but with bottlenecked rounds, the nose of one bullet in the magazine is tipped off center so that it bears against the shell head or shell head and primer juncture of the round ahead of it. One of these days, I shall test this magazine tube explosion theory and report the outcome.

[wv109323]

I read an article on this subject within the last year or so. It was very difficult to get it to happen. Out of 20 or variations they got a .44 Mag with a spire point to ignite in a tubular magazine IIRC. I believe the article was in the American Rifleman. Magazine spring strength had a lot to do with it.
Let me quote a passage from The New Hunter's Encyclopedia p.510. Stackpole Books 1966 This is in reference to the Remington 14 and 141 slide action rifles. These rifles had the spiral indention in the tubular magazines.
"This Remington slide action rifle uses a tubular "half" magazine below the barrel and within the forearm. This pressed steel tube has a peculiar spiral formed into it. Few owners have ever figured it out. This design was planned to tip the cartridges slightly to keep the nose of the bullet from direct contact with the primer of the live cartridge in front of it. With today's ammunition this is of little importance-"super sensitive" primers in those early days sometimes fired a cartridge in the magazine tube during recoil. The destruction was great and often the shooter was seriously injured. Today it serves only to protect the noses of soft point and other expanding bullet types."

[blixen]

Thanks for the replies. I always wonder about the origins of things like that. Sometimes, it's just shooters' myth.

Sorry for highjacking the thread, terryt.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Nobody yet got sued, or lost sales of rifles, ammunition or magazines, because they promised a magazine explosion which didn't happen. But the other way around, any of these things could happen. A certain tendency to be alarmist is therefore natural. But it is catastrophic enough for a rather slender chance to be important to avoid.

[Ben]

I have a pair of 38 / 357 Mag , lever action rifles.

Casting with the Lyman 358311, I use a flat nose punch and willfully put a " flat " on the end of the nose of each bullet .

This may not be necessary with the recoil of a 38 Spec. in a rifle, but I feel a little better with this flat on the end of the bullet. This allows a " flat " on each cartridge primer in the mag. tube of the rifle. ( See photo below )


http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p545/Ben35049/002_zpsfz5qyydo.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Ben35049/media/002_zpsfz5qyydo.jpg.html)

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That seems pretty sensible. But that little flat is what the rifle shouldn't be producing on its own, when round-nosed bullets are used. If they stay round when chambered, the shooter should be all right.

[FISH4BUGS]

I bought a 4 cavity Hensley & Gibbs #39 expressly for this purpose. Seems like no one was interested in the round nose bullet so I got it at a reasonable price. It is the 158gr rn 38/357 bullet and I will start experimenting with it when I can get some loading and range time.
My Interarms Rossi 92 feeds pretty much everything but i need to be very precise and slow working the lever with swc bullets.
In my manic casting sessions (2 of them) I produced well over 1500 of these bullets and sized them at 358 and used Magma Red lube. That should last me for a while.

[BCRider]

I was at the range one day at a cowboy match when one of the rifles had a magazine burst from this. The bullets used were 130gn LRNFP so the flat didn't help apparently. I didn't see it actually happen personally but I did see the burst magazine tube that opened up along the seam and the fore guard that split apart lightly.

The lady shooting had a sore hand for a few days but other than that nothing terrible occured. Likely due to the light loads not generating a whole lot of pressure. If it were a rifle caliber or magnum handgun caliber loads it could well have been different.

So all in all I suspect it's more to do with incorrectly seated primers than the bullet shape itself. Consider too that .30-30 uses a rather round nose bullet shape. It's not pointy by any means but it's far from flat. So a suitably open radius on handgun caliber bullets should be fine.... if the primers are properly seated.

[jhalcott]

Many years ago I read an article about an exploding .444 marlin lever gun. It was determined that the shooter had "topped off" the magazine several times. Thus leaving 2/3 live rounds in the tube. As near as any one could figure, the nose of the next to last round had been pounded to fit the primer cup in the last round. COULD this happen to a round nose as well?

[TXGunNut]

I know it CAN happen but the HOW is a bit difficult to explain or duplicate under controlled conditions. :popcorn: