A passel of woes!

[Sharpsman]

Why some shooters won't try paper patch bullets or make it work!

1 It takes patience
2 Greasers are faster to reload
3 They won't do any research
4 They try to use a bastard bullet
5 Won't spend the $$$ for a good PP mould
6 Don't believe PP is accurate
7 Won't ask the right questions
8 Won't heed the right answers
9 Can't figure out the right dimensions needed
10 Don't know how or want to learn to cast bullets
11 Tradition be damned
12 Attempt to shoot bore diameter with smokeless powder
13 Stay 'hung up' on high power technique
14 Equipment they do buy is crappy
15 In short...they try making a silk purse out of a sows ear!!

:lovebooli:lol:

[John Boy]

Why some shooters won't try paper patch bullets or make it work!
#16 - Don't read published resources and study how!

[country gent]

Alot are willing to listen to information, Its hard to over come some of the misinformation out there. But alot are wanting to make them work and will try alot of things suggested. There are some very good sources of information and some not so good out there both internet and books., sorting thru and deciding what works is a chore.

[Don McDowell]

Anybody ever wonder why paper patching died over 100 years ago?

[Lumpy grits]

In my case, it's the 'Old-Arthur' in my right hand that won't let me roll the patch the same on 2 bullets.
LG

[semtav]

After hearing the flutter of tumbling bullets at a few gong shoots I didn't think I'd ever try Paper patching. But luckily I acquired a great mould from DanT that has worked well in every rifle I've tried it in with both black and smokeless. I don't know why people even mess with that sticky stuff now.

[Sharpsman]

Anybody ever wonder why paper patching died over 100 years ago?

Same thing today! People got LAZY!!

[montana_charlie]

But luckily I acquired a great mould from DanT that has worked well in every rifle I've tried it in with both black and smokeless.
Very few people are willing to try patching to groove diameter, like you (me) and some others.
But, it really is a valid choice for a rifle with a modern chamber.

CM

[Lead pot]

It is easier to obtain good accuracy patching to groove or just under groove diameter in tight chambered rifles. I have several rifles that will not except a GG or PP bullet that is groove diameter. There is a lot less vertical problems with a tight fitting bullet then one that is patched at bore or slightly under.
A bullet that is patched to groove diameter has the only disadvantage of loosing powder capacity that is needed for some of the pit safety velocities that will get tough for the .45-70 when you want to use a lube wad in your loads. The 2-7/8 or the 2.6 cases are not hampered using a groove diameter PP bullet. That is the way I loaded my 3-1/4 Sharps and it gave me great accuracy in that rifle.

[BrentD]

CM,
I started with patching to groove diameter. At the time, I was pretty much the only one shooting paper patches of any kind at all, but the few others were also using groove diameter bullets. It was probably an artifact of everyone but myself, as I had never reloaded anything when I dove into paper patching BPCRs, it was just the way I was told to go by folks that didn't actually do it more than occasionally themselves.

By the mid '90s I had read Robert's book on muzzleloaders and Grant's book on single shots and suddenly put the two together and realized that groove diameter was not the only, or even best, solution. Iordered up a couple of swages and a couple sets of custom dies. The internet resoundingly laughed. But here we are today with people that now preach it like it was a biblical decree (many of them were in the crowd that was laughing at me in the mid 90's).

For me, the future, in some ways is going back to the beginning. Just a couple months ago, I ordered up a mould for casting a bullet that wraps to groove diameter +1. Gert would be proud :) I think it is an optimal solution for something, just not BPCR/BPTR target shooting. the rifle for it is almost built and the target for it is still growing. But I'm betting the farm it will work just fine.

Brent

[Don McDowell]

I think a lot of folks got burned on shooting patched bullets in this second coming of the bpcr's. Back in the late 70's early 80's about all you could get for slick moulds was either some rusted out old ones, or new ones that in 45 caliber anyway were pretty much .450 diameter. Which can be fine, but the half mile long throats they chambered in rifles at that time, worked fair for hunting and such, but lacked the fine touches that were needed as the sport became a bit more serious and finer accuracy was the driver. Greasers gave accuracy quick and easy. Had the second coming of bpcr came along with the info we have now rediscovered and started using, grease grooves might of been the oddball rounds at a match.

[Lead pot]

Brent if you cant get that new bullet to shoot pass that mould off to me :)
My first reproduction sharps was a Pedersoli when Cabela's first stocked them. When I made a chamber cast I found that long cylinder freebore .400+ it was chambered for the 3 1/4. A groove diameter PP bullet was all that would fly straight and it did shoot very accurately.
I cut my teeth with the Rem. Rollers but I could never warm up to them because of the stock drop and the .40 and 11 mm cases where hard to come by but cartridges where available but misfires where better then 50% from the degraded priming.
But groove diameter bullets will shoot well. I still have swage dies for the groove diameter bullets. I should dig them out again.

By the way, bring those 2.6 cases to Lodi if you still have them.

Kurt

[BrentD]

Kurt,
Don't hold your breath waiting on that mould. I know it will shoot well in the lever gun and all the way through a moose, with luck. I think groove diameter is the only way to go for lever guns and other repeaters. And it just might the be superior bullet in singleshots as well - where the game is game. When you see this bullet it will instantly remind you of a swaged bullet - the LSWC, 1-stage bullet. I'm not really traveling new ground with this bullet. Just revisiting the old days when bullets were made with the pull of a lever.

Ah the 2.6's, I do still have them. Not sure how I'll empty them but maybe that should be your problem :) I'll get them rounded up and set by the basement door.

[semtav]

The 2-7/8 or the 2.6 cases are not hampered using a groove diameter PP bullet. That is the way I loaded my 3-1/4 Sharps and it gave me great accuracy in that rifle.

I am using the same amount of powder in my 45-90 as the 2 7/8 because of the freebore. 95 grains. I like using black the best, but in the gong game we play, that sometimes puts you at a disadvantage when you are spending all your time wiping instead of watching the wind. the BH209 in the 45-70 takes care of that.

[Gunlaker]

It may be a disadvantage Brian, but with PP bullets and black powder, you are doing it in style :-)

Chris.

[fast ronnie]

Brent if you cant get that new bullet to shoot pass that mould off to me :)
My first reproduction sharps was a Pedersoli when Cabela's first stocked them. When I made a chamber cast I found that long cylinder freebore .400+ it was chambered for the 3 1/4. A groove diameter PP bullet was all that would fly straight and it did shoot very accurately.
I cut my teeth with the Rem. Rollers but I could never warm up to them because of the stock drop and the .40 and 11 mm cases where hard to come by but cartridges where available but misfires where better then 50% from the degraded priming.
But groove diameter bullets will shoot well. I still have swage dies for the groove diameter bullets. I should dig them out again.

By the way, bring those 2.6 cases to Lodi if you still have them.

Kurt

Which Lodi are you referring to? The one south of Sacramento by any chance?

[Lead pot]

Lodi Wisconsin

[Lead pot]

I am using the same amount of powder in my 45-90 as the 2 7/8 because of the freebore. 95 grains. I like using black the best, but in the gong game we play, that sometimes puts you at a disadvantage when you are spending all your time wiping instead of watching the wind. the BH209 in the 45-70 takes care of that.

:) the day you quit yanking that stick in that Bug Bomber draining the blood out of your head you will come to realize the mistakes you been making with the wrong powder in that 2.4 :)

[semtav]

:) the day you quit yanking that stick in that Bug Bomber draining the blood out of your head you will come to realize the mistakes you been making with the wrong powder in that 2.4 :)

I only use BH in the 45-70. I still prefer Swiss 1 1/2 in the 90 ;-)

[Sharpsman]

Here's a commment from a BH209 user on another site:

Call it coincidence, bad Carma, or just plane bad luck http://images.proboards.com/v5/smiley/embarrassed.png http://images.proboards.com/v5/smiley/embarrassed.png http://images.proboards.com/v5/smiley/cry.png as some one else just posted about this problem with BH209,
but I just returned back home from a quite good friends house depressed, greatly disappointed and with more than $200 gone from my checking account.

Got a call from my friend (at 7am) saying that his blued/walnut Encore 209x50 that he bought on my advice and then shot BH209 out of it again on my advice was rusted so bad it had to be seen to be believed.

I dropped what I was doing and went over to his house. Sure enough the rust in his Encore barrel was so bad you could see it by just looking at the end of the muzzle. I had the presence of mind to bring with me my entire gun cleaning/maintenance kit and gun smithing tools.

I removed the barrel and placed it in my portable vice and proceeded to give the barrel as cleaning that lasted over two and a half strait hours. I got the patches to come out about 95% still white and bore back to a mirror finish, but the pitting caused by the rust was so bad it was easily visible to the naked eye by simply holding the barrel up to the light and looking up it.

My friend never once even hinted that I was responsible, he simply wanted to see if there was anything I could do to fix it. Because it is so close to hunting season in IL, I felt i had no choice but to buy him another 209x50 barrel. He said he will not order it until we go shooting together tomorrow, but I told him to order it now because I am 99% certain the rust will return, and NSS might not be open when we return home tomorrow and he will need that barrel asap as he planed on using it during shotgun deer season.

For those wondering I did ask how long he let his Encore remain with a dirty bore having shot BH209 out of it, he said exactly 5 days in his basement that has a dehumidifier going 7/24 12 out of 24 hours a day and the Encore was stored in a fire proof Liberty gun safe with a large container of silicon desiccant also in the safe. He shot it on Tuesday of this week. I know he is telling the truth as he called me on Monday to ask if I wanted to go with him, but prior comitments would not allow this.

So I am now the not so proud owner of a severely pitted .50 caliber Encore barrel.

So I feel this proves beyond doubt that BH209 residue if left in your barrel WILL 100% RUST IT for certain.
Bottom line either treat BH209 like any other BP sub and clean your barrel ASAP, or risk ruining it.

NOTE

I've had a few buddies over the years that LEARNED THE HARD WAY :x:xover the usage of Pyrodex and not cleaning soon after shooting the krap!!

[Don McDowell]

I'm wondering what exactly they did to the Encore barrel? Maybe used a water based cleaner? Accurate says that's a no no... We've shot probably 10 lbs or more of the stuff in Carol's rifle and I've seen no rust. It did get a bit of white fuzz on that deep recessed crown once, but nothing as far as rust. Now if I can just figure out why it tends to throw patched bullets about 10 ft to the right of grease grooves...

[Lead pot]

I won a can of 209 and a bottle of their special cleaner at one of the gong shoots a couple years ago and it is still unopened because of what I have read form others using it. I think it will stay unopened.

[MikeA]

I just started doing it. Of course I'm relatively new to my 45/70. I'm using a bastard bullet....nothing to see here.....I just started this morning at another run if bullets p.p. I ran them through a .452 sizer, ran my patch just from copy paper and after wards I put a little lube on, let it dry a bit and run it through a .459 sizer than load. Being these are not meant to be my go to loads but more practice and understanding until I have the funds to buy the p.p. mold I'd be totally down to just load those. I don't have a lubrisizer and pan lubing than sizing it is a time consumer for me. I need to get better equipment but I'm making do. I'm not going to let p.p. Die out. I had my 4 yr old paper patching next to me and he actually rolled a good one. Yes, I made him wash his hands. I think this method will prove successful as I get a bit better. As far as accuracy, it shot ok. It was loaded with smokeless, these well be loaded with black. I'm not having the success rate with smokeless as I am with black powder.

[Gunlaker]

Mike one of the nice things about shooting PP bullets is that you need a lot less equipment.

I still remember the first time I got a bore diameter paper patched load to shoot properly. It was in my first .45-2-7/8 and I was having a tough go of it for a few weeks. A few of the guys here suggested a simple change to my load and it went from terrible to quite good.

Since then I mostly shoot PP bullets in guns with tight PP chambers, or breech seated in small calibers. But the .45-110's still shoot quite well and at long distances with nothing more than a lube cookie and a couple of veg wads. Shooting that way takes very little equipment once you have the right mold.

Chris.

[MikeA]

Gunlaker, Is a lube cookie a must with paper patch? I can see the the benefit. With the molds I have, I'm paper patching a lee 459/405 flat point. It's lube grooves are very small.

[Don McDowell]

Why are you patching a bullet that is already the right size for the bore?
Most folks use patch a bullet up to bore diameter or just over, some do patch to groove diameter, but the one thing they all do have in common the bullet is well under bore or groove diameter before it has any paper wrapped around it.

[Gunlaker]

No Mike it is not a necessity at all, but when using rifles with modern style chambers with bullets patched to bore diameter ( not groove ), it seems like an easy way to get a rifle to shoot well.

When my rifle was shooting so poorly, I think it was Dean Becker who casually suggested that a lube cookie would probably help. My first lube cookie group at 100m was sub-moa in the .45-110, and at 200m it was a little less than a minute and a half IIRC. That amount of vertical wouldn't float my boat anymore, but I sure was happy that day! I still havent tried Don's suggestion of a lubed felt wad in that rifle but might one day. Since that day I have changed very little with the load as it still works :-). Just a little more powder and harder bullet.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Chris there's lubed felt wads and then there's lubed felt wads... I'll bring along a package of the good ones , at Worland.

[Gunlaker]

Thanks Don. I'd like to see what you are using.

Chris.

[MikeA]

Don, just practice. No paper patch mold yet.
Gun, thank you.