RCBS 45-70 dies......Be Aware...............

[Knarley]

Just got off the line with Midway USA. Evidently RCBS makes two sets of dies for the 45-70. One for heeled bullets & one for cowboy boolits. Of course when I ordered them, I didn't know that. The plunger that sets the boolit height is different. The heeled bullet plunger doesn't have enough threads to engage the die when a long postel is in the process of being loaded. ( I thought I was loosing more of my mind there for a bit)
All is well, the plunger for a Lyman 45-90 fit, and will work.
Thought I'd mention it.
Knarley

[Chill Wills]

OK - you got me going on this one.
Heel bullets in 45-70 ?
And
*not enough threads to seat Postell* - on this item, have you loosened the 7/8-14 lock ring around the die and moved the die body up in the press? Then the seating stem should go up to give you all kinds of room to load bullets as long or longer than 1.500" +++

Of course I am not with you in your loading room so something could be different than I describe.

[Knarley]

OK - you got me going on this one.
Heel bullets in 45-70 ?
And
*not enough threads to seat Postell* - on this item, have you loosened the 7/8-14 lock ring around the die and moved the die body up in the press? Then the seating stem should go up to give you all kinds of room to load bullets as long or longer than 1.500" +++



Of course I am not with you in your loading room so something could be different than I describe.

Heeled bullets = Copper jackets, for hunting with lever guns.

If I move the die up, can't crimp. Had me ALL sorts of flustered.

Knarley

[Chill Wills]

If I move the die up, can't crimp. Had me ALL sorts of flustered.
Knarley

OK - So, I can't imagine the need to shoot the Postell in a lever rifle so I am still guessing you are loading the Postell for some kind of singleshot rifle. If that is correct, loading for the singleshot, there is no need to crimp the Postell bullet.
A .459" bullet in a .458 expended case is a lot of neck tension and there should be no problems building an accurate load.

Sounds like you use the same seater die for your lever rifle 45-70 too.
On the cheap, you can just buy a second LEE 45-70 seater die and have two, one die set up for each rifle/bullet combo you have.

[Knarley]

OK - So, I can't imagine the need to shoot the Postell in a lever rifle so I am still guessing you are loading the Postell for some kind of singleshot rifle. If that is correct, loading for the singleshot, there is no need to crimp the Postell bullet.
A .459" bullet in a .458 expended case is a lot of neck tension and there should be no problems building an accurate load.

Sounds like you use the same seater die for your lever rifle 45-70 too.
On the cheap, you can just buy a second LEE 45-70 seater die and have two, one die set up for each rifle/bullet combo you have.

I bought the 45-70 dies after I bought an IAB "Sharps". (First mistake)
I didn't know there were different dies for single shots & lever guns.
My newer "Sharps" doesn't like the 405 grain boolits that I cast, so, I acquired some Lyman Postells to see if they would shoot better. They wouldn't fit in the die I have, because I had the dies for the shorter bullets.
As far as neck tension, I haven't figured that one out yet, none of the loading books I have discuss that aspect of loading.
I thought I would mention it, so another person starting out like I am, wouldn't get the wrong dies.
So far, I bought the wrong gun, (IAB) wrong boolit moulds, was using the wrong alloy & was compressing the powder with the projectile.
The reason I have that 45-90 die set is, that IAB (that I do not have any more) was some where between 45-70 & 45-90.
Needless to say, for me, these guns have been a nightmare.
Welcome to my world :wink:

Knarley

[John Boy]

As far as neck tension, I haven't figured that one out yet, none of the loading books I have discuss that aspect of loading.
Knarley, feel for you with your issues.
RE: neck tension ... buy the Paul Matthews book that you didn't buy that I posted on another thread. Page 74, in detail explains how to derive neck tension for specific rifle groove diameter - bullet - case ID where the rule of thumb for neck tension is always 0.001 to 0.002 in a single shot rifle shooting lead bullets. After seating, either with a seating die or 'finger seating', do not crimp the case. Just remove the bell on the case by lightly tapping the seating die or using a full length sizing die with the decapper removed

A bell on the case is needed & created when you used an expansion die to open the case mouth so when the bullet is seated in the case, it doesn't strip the bullet base. One only needs a bell wide enough so when the bullet is set in the case before loading, about 1/2 of the of the bullet base is covered by the case mouth

As for bullet alloy ... 1:20 or better 1:16. The 1:16 can be made using 3 parts Lyman #2 and 7 parts pure lead. The Bhn will be 8.2 as cast and 18 days later will be Bhn 9.8. Reason for using 1:16 is - the bullet will slump longer in the grooves of the rifle for better accuracy

Dies for 45-70 - LEE! Then go to Track of Wolf and buy their compression & expander plugs. They are less than $3 each verses the Lyman M die and other compression dies. The plugs drop right into the Lee Expansion die and you can get different diameters.

[Gunlaker]

You definitely won't need a crimp. Actually with the RCBS dies you may be getting a lot more neck tension than you need anyway. The expanders on my two sets of RCBS dies are 0.456". That's too tight in my opinion for a .459" bullet, especially if you are using unannealed Starline brass.

Chris.

[rr2241tx]

IMO, the least hassle way forward for lead bullets in 45/70 is the RCBS Cowboy die set. In fact, I'd say that is probably true for any cartridge there is a Cowboy die set for.

[Gunlaker]

I have a set of those. When using neck tension it's still nice to have a handful of different expanders from Buffalo Arms to get the neck tension you want.

I don't think I use factory expanders for any of my ammunition ( well I use the dies, but not the plugs), and I definitely don't use the factory seater dies. The Redding Competition Seater dies do a much better job. But those arent necessary to get what he needs for the next bit of success.

Chris.

[Knarley]

So how far down on the case does one put the "tension"? Using the sizing die, just the mouth, or part way down the boolit, or the length of the boolit?
My expander die does not leave a "bell" if I am using fire formed brass. It will if I fully re-size the brass, but I am shooting only one gun, no need to size them, I thought..........
When I crimped them, it would take out the last bit of crimp, but the case was pretty much straight, and the boolit will drop in. I think I have a "fat" chamber, going to try some boolits that haven't been sized.

Knarley

[Gunlaker]

There is often no need to size cases. I.e. using zero neck tension. In that case, what seems to work is to have the bullet seated well into the rifling which I think provides the same benefit as neck tension. Bullets are seated with finger pressure. Ideally they are a reasonably tight fit, not sloppy so they fall out. That's how I load grease groove bullets in most of my rifles.

When I do use neck tension, I full length size, or partial size with a die backed out a few turns. Then I use an expander plug from Buffalo Arms that is 0.001" or sometimes 0.002" under the bullet diameter, so basically the entire area that touches the bullet on the case is affected. If I am sizing the case I like to use a Redding Competition Seater to reduce runout, although you can do quite well without it.

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

IMHO I think that they key to getting black powder to shoot pretty well comes down to this. Start with a bullet that is cast well. It also fits the chamber and case well. It needs to come out of the muzzle as perfect as it goes in. I.e. not buggered up by hard fouling, or a poor fit for the chamber, really short brass, etc. This means it will fly straight. Then it'll be pretty accurate regardless of powder brand, charge weight, or primers. After that there are a lot of ways to get small improvements. The sum of the small improvements gives great accuracy.

Chris.

[Knarley]

When I do use neck tension, I full length size, or partial size with a die backed out a few turns. Then I use an expander plug from Buffalo Arms that is 0.001" or sometimes 0.002" under the bullet diameter, so basically the entire area that touches the bullet on the case is affected. If I am sizing the case I like to use a Redding Competition Seater to reduce runout, although you can do quite well without it.

Chris.
If the case mouth is .001-.002 UNDER the size of the boolit, doesn't that shave off lead?
I was thinking that instead of using the crimper, one uses the re-sizing die AFTER the boolit is inserted, part way down to hold it in place. I guess I'm just being dense today or some thing.
Run out? Oh, boy.......

[M-Tecs]

One for heeled bullets & one for cowboy boolits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heeled_bullet

http://www.corbins.com/heelbase.htm

[Gunlaker]

Yessir it would shave lead, but your expander die should have a little step on it to flare the mouth just a tiny bit. I adjust the expander so that it just barely opens the mouth up to accept the base of the bullet. Light enough that it's hard to see that there is any flare there at all, but enough that the bullet goes in up to the first diving band by hand without any real pressure.

To be honest, what I actually do it to use the expander die on my .45-70 cowboy dies to bell the case mouths just a tiny tiny bit, then I replace the expander plug with a .457" or .458" and re-expand to that diameter. I only do that because my buffalo arms expanders don't actually bell the case so I do two steps. Most people probably don't do that I expect. :-)

The case, being say 0.001" under bullet diameter, gives a good neck tension which is why a crimp is not necessary. If your expander plug is too small you can get lots of neck tension which might distort the bullet when you seat it. I've seated bullets with 0.002" neck tension, pulled the bullets and remeasured the diameter and it was unchanged. That is a good sanity check.

I hope this stuff is useful to you.

Chris.

[Knarley]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heeled_bullet

http://www.corbins.com/heelbase.htm

I stand corrected :wink:

[Lead pot]

I have never been satisfied with the plugs that come with any of the dies. I made a case neck fairing plug that takes care of my calibers I shoot from the .40 to .50. This plug expands the case mouth with a gentle flair. I use a taper crimp die for a neck sizing die. It can be adjusted as tight as I want for neck tension and then I use the flair plug for the mouth diameter I need to seat the bullet with out shaving paper or lead when I use the inline seating die. Yes it's another step in the loading process but for me it's worth it.

I don't like to adjust a case with a bullet seated, like a taper crimp to put neck tension on a bullet or remove the excess flair. This puts uneven pressure on the bullet just like thickness in the case walls.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/38331dbe-b7e1-4227-81d8-aa5011c51779_zpsmomoh1oy.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/38331dbe-b7e1-4227-81d8-aa5011c51779_zpsmomoh1oy.jpg.html)

Knarley,

It sounds like you need a little help adjusting dies for loading these lead bullets. I would ask at the range you shoot at for someone that shoots black powder cartridges if he would walk you through in his Home how to go through the proper way to load and adjusting the dies.
There is nothing more frustrating when one starts casting and loading when one does not cast good bullets and then not loading a well cast bullet wrong.
Ugly bullets, Ugly loads will give you Ugly groups at and distance you shoot.

[Knarley]

Well, as far as people at my range shooting BPCR, I'm it.
Know how when the ground is so hard and dry, water won't soak in? Today at work, the light bulb went on. I FINALLY figured out what you folks were trying to tell me. Me thinks I get it.............I'm gonna go down stairs and see what happens..........

Yup! it works. .002-.003 difference

I appreciate all the patience you folks have shown................it really says alot.

Knarley

[country gent]

For my loads .002 - .003 is alot of tension. Im normally .001 or less, my loaded rounds will allow you to turn the bullet in the case but it is snug feeling. I shoot very light tension and its working for me so far. I use a mecham neck sizing bushing die for my ammo. If only one caliber its a little more expensive but with right bushing mine does 40-65, 45-70 and 45-90 right now just by adjusting die and bushing change. Also allows the same ie to size for grease grooved bullets or paper patched bullets. When sizing your cases only size to the depth need to get the dia you need for tension and then lightly flair mouth to accept bullet. A full length sizing takes the case neck under and then the expander bell die opens it up working the brass much more. Another thing to consider is annealing cases as this helps remove spring back from being hard. It also makes those big cases last much longer. For what its worth a RCBS sizing die can be converted to a bushing die with a lathe and some planning.

[Knarley]

I figure that the neck tension that I have is a lot better than the crimping I was using before. I'm at this point kinda tired of "fighting" with this gun. The last time out was leaps and bounds better, and this new "neck tension" revelation will most likely take it even further. I'm gonna quit fiddling with stuff for a bit and go out and play for a while. I think I need some "Bonding time" with this rifle, and use what I've learned so far on the wife's 38-55. Her gun has been preforming much the same as mine. Of course the same idiot has been loading both. Once I get them on a staple diet, and off the "junk food" I been feeding them, then we can start tweekin'. I've just taken my first steps, I'm fine with that.........for now.

I'm sure I'll have more questions.......in fact I KNOW I do.

Knarley

[Gunlaker]

Knarley, if I were you I'd try ten shots with your new load, and do the fouling control just like you have been. Then try ten more but with the bore cleaned with a couple of patches between shots (dry the chamber after running the patches). That way you can see how much problem fouling might be causing you.

Good luck!

Chris.

[rfd]

i just use fire formed brass for .45-70 and .40-65 bp loads. after checking the oal with an undersized boolit and no wad, i compress the wad/powder, then just push in the bullet and make sure the oal is good. the only time a press is ever needed is for the baco compression die. that's just the load starting point and tweaks for everything ensue for best accuracy with that particular firearm, then the fun really begins. 8-)

[GoodOlBoy]

yeah there's a difference in dies for lead "cowboy" rounds and for "jacketed" rounds. I still roll crimp both to get the best consistency, though if it's a single shot you don't have to go hog wild with the crimp. As has been said you really don't have to crimp at all with black powder, but like I said I got better consistency when I did. There are also black powder taper crimp dies for 45-70 that are supposedly awesome particularly for paper patching. Lyman even makes a neck sizing die (Lyman #: 7135057) that will neck size any 45 "straight wall" from a 45-60 to a 45-120 from a single die (Yeah I know it's a taper wall but lyman said it, I didn't). A couple of years back at a gun show I even saw a 45-70 die set (can't remember who made it) that was a "specialty" set designed for the BFR revolver in 45-70 specifically. So yeah with all the variations it isn't hard to get mixed up as to which set to buy (been there)

The heeled bullet thing had me throw'd until somebody posted the links for you and I realized it was a miscommunication. A heeled bullet in a 45-70 would put you around the 48 caliber range for the bore.... like I said it throw'd me.

Anyway there have been some good suggestions but between you me and the fencepost? I would say sell the current dies in S&S figure out what you need, and re-order. Heck in your situation I would seriously consider ordering the dies separately so that you have a "custom" set that does exactly what you want and need it to.

For instance the
Lyman neck sizer die I mentioned - Lyman #: 7135057 - $29 at midwayusa
Lyman Black Powder Cartridge Taper Crimp Die Lyman - #: 7153124 - $23 at midwayusa
Lee Quick Trim Die 45-70 Government - Lee #: 90458 - $9+ at midwayusa (and you will need the lee recommended trimmer)

This combination would allow for longer brass than standard 45-70 since that's what your rifle needs per yer earlier comment. Heck it would even allow for MUCH shorter than standard if you want to do it. Those two lyman dies both designed to do from 45-60 to 45-120 so once you had them adjusted you would have a truly custom set for your rifle.


GoodOlBoy