I am getting an old Winchester 1892 in 38-40 soon, have a die question

[texassako]

I am being gifted said rifle soon(40 caliber for my 40th birthday) and have been reading as much as possible to load for it. A lot of info out there about the shoulder moving forward on firing and the dies not moving it back making for poor bullet pull. People cut down dies, some leave it alone and just crimp, and at least one article says RCBS has the right sizer since the early '80s. What die brand(s) are going to have a sizer that puts a neck back on the case without modifying the die?

[John Boy]

So, I punch in 38-40 in the computer browser,and ... pick one
http://www.midwayusa.com/find?dimensionids=11992

[texassako]

So, I punch in 38-40 in the computer browser,and ... pick one
http://www.midwayusa.com/find?dimensionids=11992

Then why do so many talk about having to grind down their dies to get them to size right?

[357Mag]

Tex -

Howdy !

IMHO - $$$ a LEE die set, for .38-40 .

They have a money back guarantee should the dies not work well for you ( .... " load the most accurate ammunition " ).
Give ' em a try.


With regards,
357Mag

[Mohillbilly]

Tex I have a lee die set that works well , for me . When you get your 92 look it over and slug the barrel . Size your boolits accordingly . remember that it is a 38-40 Not a .44 magnum . A chamber cast will go a long way in determining what you have/need . The 38-40 has a rim , and a shoulder , there fore size just enough to to set the shoulder to a " crush fit " . Then start with a light bell just enough to start the boolit . the a light crimp if needed . Too much crimp will buckle cases . alwasy lube your cases so they won't stick in the die , too much lube will "dent" them .

[pworley1]

For my '92 made in 1895 I use the Lee dies and crimp with the Lee factory crimp die. I have had no problems.

[John Boy]

Then why do so many talk about having to grind down their dies to get them to size right?
:groner: Beats me, never talked to anyone about their issue! Have any idea which vendor's mold is made incorrectly?

And is the issue only with Rugers?
http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=21534

[texassako]

:groner: Beats me, never talked to anyone about their issue! Have any idea which vendor's mold is made incorrectly?

And is the issue only with Rugers?
http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=21534

Wow, that is incredibly helpful!

I was just saying in my research while waiting for the rifle that chamber dimensions vary from the case dimensions and some die makers make FL dies that don't give you enough neck for good neck tension. A crimp is not a replacement for good neck tension IMHO, and I wanted to know who has had success, or problems, with which dies. I thought it was a valid question that shouldn't be subject to unhelpful ridicule.

[John Boy]

Sako - here's some help:
* Do a chamber cast of your rifle
* Match it to a standard SAAMI diagram ...
http://www.loaddata.com/images/database/.38-40%20Winchester3.gif
Then see if your chamber cast matches! If it does, then any of the vendor's dies would be cut based on the specification and work for your rifle. If not, then recommend you send your chamber cast information to CH4D and have a custon die made
On the CAS posse I shoot with, 2 of the shooters use original 38-40 rifles and never have heard in discussion from them they had to have a custom die made for their reloads

[EDK]

HANDLOADER/RIFLE magazine had a paperback special edition on lever actions some years ago...mine are in storage 50 miles away currrently. There was some discussion on reloading 38/40 and 44/40 and chamber dimension issues. One of the major manufacturers would make custom reloading dies...at a reasonable price...from 4 casings fired in YOUR gun. I am inferring that your gun is an heirloom or family treasure, so I'd bite the bullet and get the custom dies and an appropriate boolit mould. Someone else have info on which manufacturer?

Allegedly RUGER made some 38/40 BLACKHAWKS with extremely tight chambers. They had considerably higher velocity with commercial "cowboy loads" than was advertised...too high for SASS rules. I don't recall which gunwriter reported this.

Some respondents are less than helpful...ignore them and hopefully they will go away. You asked some valid questions and got a less than respectful reply. I will admit to aggravating some "stuffed shirts" BUT this isn't your case.

PS I had a 38/40 1892 back in 1966. Talk about an education!

[georgerkahn]

I have a couple of .38WCF Winchesters (1892) as well as the Ruger .38-40/10mm convertible revolver. I use plain-Jane Lyman dies, and only problem I had waaaay back, was my denting and bulging the cases. I was advised to use Imperial wax (Redding sells it now), and these problems went away. I do use the Lee Factory Crimp Die on this caliber, as well as pretty much all of my reloads.
Happy birthday! And, congrats on getting what I believe to be the BEST caliber firearm of its day!
georgerkahn

[clum553946]

I have a 92 38-40 from the same time era (circa 1895) that I use 180 lfp's. My die set is the RCBS cowboy dies. I use only lead & I like the quality of this die set, & although I've only run a few hundred rounds so far, I've had no issues. Loading hasn't been a problem as long as you pay attention since the cartridge mouth is really thin & the loaded ammo feeds & shoots really well. I use a medium crimp & check aol & trim the long ones. They're "real purty" too! Lol

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I shoot the 38-40 in a Winchester 73 and the Ruger (buckeye) revolver. I use the Lyman 401043 which is supposed to be the original design, but it was designed for use with black powder so I have had to crimp on the front of the forward band to get proper OAL for correct feeding in the 73. No prob in the Ruger. I tried trimming the cases shorter a bit and that worked, but case necks in the 38/40 are kind of thin to start with and going easy on them is a better way to go. LLS.

[TXGunNut]

I think I'm going to the range with my shooting buddy this weekend, he has a few 38-40's that he loads BP cartridges for. I'll PM you when I hear from him but I think we're shooting late Sunday morning.

[texassako]

Thanks for the help and suggestions everyone. It gives me an idea of what to add to my wants and needs list for this caliber.


I think I'm going to the range with my shooting buddy this weekend, he has a few 38-40's that he loads BP cartridges for. I'll PM you when I hear from him but I think we're shooting late Sunday morning.

No problem, I don't expect to see the rifle for a few more weeks when it makes its way up from Houston.

[clum553946]

They are a hoot to shoot! Congrats, you'll have a ton of fun!

[bouncer50]

Has anyone use 44/40 brass to make 38/40 ?

[VA Jim]

When I got my 38-40 back in the mid 80's brass was hard to find. I lightly lubed 44-40 brass and ran them through the 38-40 die. Worked great. Just don't use too much lube.

[John Boy]

Just don't use too much lube.
Fact! Excess lube in the case in the FL die will be compressed against the case developing a nice crease.
Having reformed many different calibers and used several of the commercial lube ... the best I've found that only needs a light finger wipe is Bag Balm
http://www.bagbalm.com/img/header.gif

[georgerkahn]

The "Bag Balm" use intrigues me... perhaps my next trip to Agway will find some in my cart. A big "++++" re just a wee bit too much re lub on the thin .38wcf cases! I ruined :( quite a few from the resultant creases as John Boy mentioned. I have used Imperial Wax -- similarly, just a scant application from waxy fingers -- with 100% success. But... again -- the Bag Balm intrigues me...
BEST!
georgerkahn

[bob208]

I use lyman dies to load for my 92. you can also use .44 mag cases to form .38-40. they are easier to find then .44-40.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Neck tension is important for good combustion, and a crimp isn't a good substitute. But unlike a revolver, a lever-action rifle is only likely to cause bullets to recede back into the case, not forwards. If you find you need to counter this, a crimped groove behind the bullet should be just as good, although you may need some home-made tool to do it with.

I don't know how old it is, but it is likely to be a better Winchester than they have been making in quite a while. I imported by 86 and 94 in chamberings listed in the UK as antiques, which don't need any licence. But all the 92 chamberings would have to be licensed from the start. It could be done, but isn't as much fun.

[John Boy]

George, call your local drug store and ask them if they have Bag Balm in the Skin Care area. It is lanolin based. Most large chain drug stores carry it.
I bought a can about 4 years ago. Only approximately 1/3rd has been used because so little is needed to lube cases. Latest exercise was 200 - 22 Hornets reformed to 25 Hornet for a Stevens 25. Not one case was rumbled or creased

While your at the drug store, ask the pharmacy department to save for you the dessicants that they receive in drug shipments. Multiple uses to eliminate moisture & oxidation: in spare cartridge cans, in digital scale cases to eliminate moisture to the strain gauge, etc

[Speedo66]

I've been using Lee dies, including the factory crimp die, with my original '73 .38-40 and have encountered no problems. The cases are fairly thin, so you want to take extra care and slow down while loading them so as not to crush case mouths. Other than that, it's like any other case.

I use .401 Missouri round nose, flat point "cowboy" bullets, 180g. Over a light load of 5.5g of TrailBoss they're pretty accurate.

[RobsTV]

Neck tension is important for good combustion, and a crimp isn't a good substitute. But unlike a revolver, a lever-action rifle is only likely to cause bullets to recede back into the case, not forwards. If you find you need to counter this, a crimped groove behind the bullet should be just as good, although you may need some home-made tool to do it with.
.

If using Black Powder (which of course you will since it is an original), then boolit should be lightly compressing powder, so no fear of it going into case further. However, mine likes to be loaded with boolit engraving the rifling. This will require a good crimp if you wish to unload chambered rounds and have the boolit stay in the case, without spewing Black Powder all over when you cycle 14 of these as line goes cold.. Also, in this example using original Winchester 1873, crimp does not hurt accuracy, as I think you could almost shoot this thing straight up with a blind fold on, and it would still hit the bulls-eye dead center at 50 yards.

180gr Missouri Cowboy with lube switched to BP type, full case of Goex FFF, heavy crimp using Lee Factory Crimp die, results in 1440fps on the chrono..

And original question. Lee dies work great. Starline frequently sells new 38-40 brass directly.

[clum553946]

38-40 cases from Starline just became available for order today!

[texassako]

38-40 cases from Starline just became available for order today!

Thanks for the heads up. I am going to need some more brass even though it is coming with at least a couple of boxes of ammunition.

[smokeywolf]

FYI, Starline Brass is accepting orders for 38-40 brass for mid-May delivery.

OOPs, didn't notice post #26

[1historian]

I have some experience with the 38 wcf in a Marlin 1889. Never had any sizinf problems, Shot best with "holy black and soft cast bullets.

[flint45]

One more for lee dies. Bag baum I going to give it a try.

[Geezer in NH]

Lee collets and FCD unless you like crushing cases in the 38-40 and 44-40

[lobogunleather]

My experience with all of the old WCF cases (.218 Bee,.25-20, .32-20, .38-40, .44-40) has taught me that the case necks and walls are quite thin (compared to most more modern cases) and it is very easy to crush a case, especially while seating bullets. Best investment I can recommend for these calibers is to buy the Lyman M Die, do away with the expander ball on the primer punch stem, and expand the necks as a separate operation after either full-length resizing or neck sizing. This allows for easy and accurate bullet seating. A light crimp finishes the job.

All of the reloading dies I have used will size the necks down more than necessary, counting on the expander ball to open them up to a size that will hold the bullets. Then the case mouth is flared to permit starting the bullet (which can be quite a bit, especially working with cast bullets that are frequently of greater diameter than SAAMI-spec bullets). This works the brass more than necessary and applies a lot of strain, which the thin necks and case walls don't handle so well.

Using the Lyman M Die will cut down on losses due to crushed or damaged necks or shoulders and lengthen the useful life of your brass considerably.

[rbertalotto]

I'm a 38-40 "nut"....I have 11 firearms that use this cartridge and no two are even close to alike (except for the four that I chambered myself with my own reamer)

I had to trim the bottom of my dies to get the shoulder where it needed to go and to get them to crimp properly so the bullets didn't telescope in the tube magazine on my lever rifles.

I finally settled on a LEE sizing die with .010" removed from the bottom, a RCBS Cowboy Die with a custom expander ball and an RCBS cowboy seating die with .015" removed from the bottom so it crimps properly.

The 38-40 is a fantastic cartridge, but I've found it a REAL project to get my loads straightened out...............But I LOVE a good challenge in the reloading room!

[texassako]

Well, the rifle is here and a box of Buffalo Arms BP ammo came along with it. The bore is currently soaking, and copper fouling fooled the giver whoe thought it was a mix of shiny with pits (and who will be advised he needs to find a different gunsmith since his supposedly cleaned this one to bare metal while cleaning and checking the action). First soak with foaming bore cleaner wiped that shine right out of there, and it may not be a fun one to clean after BP once I see how bad the bore is at the end of cleaning. A practically unused RCBS 3 die set showed up on fleabay for less than a new Lee set. Looks like I have a reloading AND cleaning challenge.

[Harry O]

I have several guns in 44-40 and in 38-40. All are of new production.

The 44-40's are from three different manufacturers. The chambers sizes of the 44-40's are all over the map. Naturally, the Ruger Vaqueros have the tightest chambers. Anything shot in the Ruger and reloaded could not be chambered in any other gun. I ended up with three different sets of dies and none of them would size the neck down as far as the factory loads (I am talking about length here, not diameter).

The only way I could take any case shot in any gun and reload them to be used in any other gun was to take approx 1/16" off the bottom of the sizing die. I did that on the Lee die since it was the cheapest. I am sure that it reduces the life of the cases a bit, but it is worth it not to have jams.

The 38-40's (both handguns and rifles) came from the same manufacturer (Uberti). I have not had to do anything with the sizing dies for that one. I do not know if this would work if I had any 38-40 from any other manufacturer. I also have quite a few 32-20's of both new and old manufacture. They needed a shorter sizing die, too, in order to use any case from any gun, after reloading, in any other gun.

[THerbert]

The only .38-40 I have is a Colt SAA of 1906 vintage. I started loading for it in the late 1980's, with a set of the standard RCBS dies, and the Lyman 401043 mold. AS someone else mentioned, this bullet doesn't have a crimp groove, so the bullet must be crimped over the front band, but the Lee FCD does that quite well. With a tubular magazine and black powder, the bullet won't retreat into the case under recoil, but if you choose to shoot smokeless (I know, sacrilege!), a good strong crimp is not only necessary, but will also aid in combustion, leaving the firearm cleaner at the end of shooting. My Colt is still so tight, tolerances-wise, that after 20 rounds of BP, it has to have the cylinder removed, and some of the fouling cleaned off the front of the cylinder and the rear of the barrel before shooting can continue. I find that 5.0 grains of Trailboss is much more pleasant to shoot, and it shoots right to POA. I have had no trouble with the rounds not fitting into the chambers.

I recently purchased 100 new pieces of Starline brass from Buffalo Arms when I though I was going to have to to shoot the Colt while one of my regular "match" .44-40's was being worked on. I think I paid $0.27 each for them, and they were the only ones that had it in stock at the time. But it turns out I didn't need them, so they've been put away for later...

[Geezer in NH]

38/40 is the original 10mm Magnum

[olafhardt]

Consulting my dubious memory I believe Dave Scoville addressed this in Handloader/Rifle. IF Iremember correctly he desined a special sizing die which RCBS makes and sells.

[TXGunNut]

Progress report?

[texassako]

Progress report?

I shot it with the BACO rounds it came with, 5" at 25 yards. Shoulder moved up about 1/8" with a steeper shoulder angle and probably going to size them tonight or tomorrow with the rcbs dies.

[rbertalotto]

38/40 is the original 10mm Magnum

Nope....40S&W...Nearly identical ballistics, just about 100 years apart!

[TXGunNut]

Nope....40S&W...Nearly identical ballistics, just about 100 years apart!,

Yes, somebody even wrote about that when the .40S&W was introduced. Seems to me the 40S&W had to go with some pretty high pressures to duplicate an old BP round. Never really thought about it that way until recently. I initially opined that the 40 would be short-lived, it was a compromise between the 9mm and the .45acp that didn't outperform either round where it counted. For the record I thought the 17HMR would never last either, no way to mass produce precision bullets that tiny.
Back on subject, I suspect the hyphenated cartridges like the 38-40 will still be around 100 years from now. I certainly hope so, anyway.

[w30wcf]

Well, the rifle is here and a box of Buffalo Arms BP ammo came along with it. The bore is currently soaking, and copper fouling fooled the giver whoe thought it was a mix of shiny with pits (and who will be advised he needs to find a different gunsmith since his supposedly cleaned this one to bare metal while cleaning and checking the action). First soak with foaming bore cleaner wiped that shine right out of there, and it may not be a fun one to clean after BP once I see how bad the bore is at the end of cleaning. A practically unused RCBS 3 die set showed up on fleabay for less than a new Lee set. Looks like I have a reloading AND cleaning challenge.

RCBS is a great die set for loading .38-40 ctgs. I would suggest adding the Lee FCD (Factory Crimp Die) as well.

I don't think you will have an issue cleaning b.p. fouling from the bore. I have a '73 Winchester with a less than perfect bore and, believe it or not, it cleans up faster after b.p. than smokeless!

If the accuracy is not great with the Buffalo Arms ammo, it is likely because the bullet may not fit the barrel and is possibly too hard to bump up & possibly the bullet may not be a b.p. type design.

Have fun!
w30wcf