fouling and flash rust

[repawn]

Hi,
My new to me Pedersoli Pennsylvania rifle in 32 caliber has been a lot of work. It does shoot pretty well - however it fouls like crazy. After every shot I have to run a patch down the barrel and it comes out crusted - I can run a few more down and it pulls a bunch more fouling. I am using Goex 3f, priming the pan with a small amount of 4f and have found hat a .315 rb with ticking for a patch works the best. I have tried different patches and different patch lubes - it is essentially all the same.

In addition, clean up produces flash rust quickly - in fact I can clean the barrel and it will turn a patch of ballistol rust brown. I have run kroil down the barrel and even used evapo-rust once. Any thoughts? I am trying to get the barrel seasoned - but it hasn't taken yet.

Last issue - the replaceable flash hole is buggered so I am unable to get it out with a screwdriver, even after a kroil soaking - for now it is ok - but I would like to replace it with something that could be removed if possible.

Thanks all.

[Czech_too]

​The only thing I might be able to help you with is the flash rust. I no longer use hot soapy water specifically because of this. Instead, I was told of a product called Black-Solve which I now use. I'm told that you can use Windex also. The Black-Solve comes as a concentrate which you mix with a quart of water. After shooting I take some of the solution, maybe a tablespoons worth, pour it down the barrel with the flash hole or nipple plugged with a round toothpick. Swish it around in the barrel tipping it, the barrel, up and down. Pour it out the muzzle, remove the toothpick and run patches down the barrel until I satisfied that it's clean. Run a saturated patch with Kroil and then another dry patch for any excess and I'm done, at least with the barrel.

Brian

[waksupi]

Use Moose Milk for your lube. You already have Ballistol, mix one part to around 8 parts water.

Modern ML barrels do not "season". If you got sold on the Bore Butter thing, get rid of it. Clean your barrel with plain old cold water. Dry with paper towels, and oil.

STOP taking out the vent! There is absolutely no need to do so. Order the right size from Track of the Wolf, then don't mess with it. It takes thousands of rounds to enlarge a vent large enough to require replacement. I shoot a lot, and have only ever had to replace one. When you do, drill, and use an easy out to remove the old one.

[curator]

repawn,

Soak the breech area overnight in Kroil before you attempt to remove the touch-hole liner. Put a spot of heat (propane torch) near the liner and warm it up a bit before trying the screw-driver. I like to see a bit of Kroil bubbling from the threads first. If all else fails, use an easy-out. Track of the Wolf has stainless steel replacement liners for Pedersoli flinters. Be sure to threat the threads with anti-sieze before screwing it back in. .32 small bores do indeed foul fast. Running a damp patch down and up after each shot will keep you shooting and help with the accuracy. You don't need to clean after each shot, just prevent the build-up of fouling and maintain bore condition. You might also try a better grade of powder like Swiss or Olde Eynford that burn a lot cleaner. I don't have a .32 flinter currently, having "done that" with small-bore flintlocks some years ago. However, with my .32 Cherokee cap lock, I have found that a tighter ball/patch combination usually resulted in less fouling. I do not use any king of greasy kid-stuff as patch lube either as I get the best accuracy with a simple spit patch. (washed .016" pillow ticking)

[Boaz]

I agree with Waksupi , might add that Hoppe's Blackpowder Solvent is also a good cleaner and WILL NOT rust the bore .

[Geezer in NH]

Flash rust? To me is an internet problem clean it the oil it with a water displacer then put Rig on it. What problem the tiny bit of red oxide you see in not measurable unless you are ??????

[repawn]

Thanks for all the advice. One other question - how do you all clean the patten chamber? I can get a .22 brush in there - but I cannot get a patch in there.

Last question - where can I buy hardened frizzens?

Thanks all

[fouronesix]

For a patent or Nock's breech I use a brush that will fit. Or you can use the 22 brush with a patch on it.

To harden a frizzen you need something like a propane a torch and some case hardening compound. I think Track of the Wolf sells a compound along with free instructions on how to do it.

[dikman]

Patent chambers are a pain! That's why I usually flush/pump water through, using the cleaning rod to pump it.

Don't get caught up with that "seasoning" thing, it's rubbish (you're using a rifle, not a frying pan!!).

From everything that I've read, small-bore BP rifles are very prone to fouling, so I doubt if it's anything that you're doing wrong. I usually run a damp patch down my 45/50 cals after each shot, but last time I tried using a lubed wad over the powder and it seemed to reduce the fouling. Be prepared to try all sorts of things (one of the joys of shooting BP :grin:), you just never know what might work for you.

[mooman76]

Are you using hot water to clean with? Hot is not needed and can cause flash rust. Just use warm water and dry good when finished before you oil it up before putting away.

[koger]

Like posted above, seasoning is rubbish. I have rifles that Ihave shot 10,000+ rounds in in local and national competition, still are tackdrives. I use a 3 part cleanin fomula I picked up at the NMLRA matches, dry well and swab the bore with a good coat of BreakfreeCLP, which the army uses. I leave a patch wet with BF in the muzzle, never any anfter rust! I clean my barrel out with 2 alcohol or acetone patch before target shooting or hunting, then a dry patch, this removes any oil. The 3 part cleaning solution is 1 quart alcohol, 1 quart peroxide, 1 pint murphy's oil soap, put in a colored antifreeze jug that has been cleaned out so light does not kill the peroxide! You can put a tube in a bottle of this and the touchhole/nipple and plunge clean it, or stick a toothpick in the touchhole and pour barrel full, stopping 2 inches from the top of barrel. Peroxide will go to work, scrub the bore with other incgedients, wait till it stops foaming, pour half out, shake barrel well and our other half out, swab out with wet patches, usually 3-4 till they come out clean, dry well and then oil as above. This whole process takes about 10 minutes. I use a toothbrush dipped in this to clean the lock and barrel area outside it, dry and oil with BF. Been doing this for over 20 years, no issues.

[waksupi]

I personally refuse to build a rifle with a patent breech. As has been stated, they are a pain in the butt.

[Omnivore]

There are lots of different cleaning products, both commercial and home made, and most of them probably do every bit as well as plain water, and so they'd be perfectly OK. The Big Secret though, is that plain water will do the same job. The problem with plain water is that it leaves nothing to market.

In the field I use a spit patch between shots, mainly so as to leave the bore in about the same condition from shot to shot, which is how I get better accuracy. I'm not a match shooter, so take that for what it's worth.

The mindless "Hot, Soapy Water" meme has got to go. In fact, plain water is all you'll ever need for a good cleaning after a day of shooting.

I have a jag I made for the patent breech. It has a flat end and fits with a patch. No one sells (and almost no manfuacturer even talks about) anything to clean it. "Slush pumping" is probably all you need, but I swab mine too.

A tighter fit (larger ball or thicker patch) MAY help with fouling. I can see it theory anyway, that some increase in pressure can result in a hotter and therefore more complete burn. You'll want to use what shoots most accurate though.

I use Goex in my 50 cal (have used pounds and pounds of the stuff) with PRB, and I get plenty of soot on the spit patch after each shot too. I've been trying Swiss powder lately also, and if there's a difference in the amount of fouling, I guess I'll have to look a lot closer to notice it. With either powder I still have to spit patch, or the next PRB is a bear to get down, and the POI shifts, so practically speaking there is no difference, for me at least, the way I'm loading. In a small bore there may be enough of a difference to favor Swiss - I don't know. Cetainly won't hurt to try it.

[bedbugbilly]

I have owned several 32 calibers over the years as well as other calibers - as far as the fouling goes - use a spit patch between shots. On my 32s, the first shots out of a clean barrel were usually "fliers". That was solved with a "fouling shot" followed by a spit patch. As already mentioned - leave the vent alone. There's no need to remove it for cleaning and it should last a long time. When it needs to be replaced - if it's a bugger to get out - it can be drilled and an easy out used and a new one installed.

[oldfart1956]

I personally refuse to build a rifle with a patent breech. As has been stated, they are a pain in the butt. They (so-called patent breech) are the devils spawn. Probably the #1 reason folks have problems with todays muzzleloaders. Most don't realize it's there and many don't realize that running a patch downbore between shots is filling it with smutz that will eventually cause problems. Some jags are designed not to push fouling downbore...most are not. Few realize how much smaller the opening in that breech is as compared to bore diameter. This was a manufacturers solution to a non-existant problem that actually causes more problems than it ever solved. Unfortunatly there's no economical way to rectify the issue. Know what it is, what it does and try to keep it clean. Audie....the Oldfart..

[Southron]

Those D**n Patent Breeches are nothing but headaches. I have gotten rid of any rifles that have them and will NEVER, NEVER, NEVER buy a rifle with a Patent Breech.

Suggest you get a good, American made replacement barrel WITHOUT a Patent Breech. As for your old barrel with the Patent Breech....If you know anyone casting a concrete slab, I understand that rifle barrels with Patent Breeches make excellent rebar. That is the best use for a barrel with a Patent Breech.

Ditto on using Break Free. Break Free in a barrel will prevent rusting, even if the cleaning job befor was a poor one.

[waksupi]

Those D**n Patent Breeches are nothing but headaches. I have gotten rid of any rifles that have them and will NEVER, NEVER, NEVER buy a rifle with a Patent Breech.

Suggest you get a good, American made replacement barrel WITHOUT a Patent Breech. As for your old barrel with the Patent Breech....If you know anyone casting a concrete slab, I understand that rifle barrels with Patent Breeches make excellent rebar. That is the best use for a barrel with a Patent Breech.

Ditto on using Break Free. Break Free in a barrel will prevent rusting, even if the cleaning job befor was a poor one.

Well, you don't need to be quite THAT rash with them. Although you may need to remove some of the breech end and rethread, you can install a flat faced breech on many rifles. Considering the value of the firearms that generally have these though, the cost could be prohibitive. Not to say they aren't safe firearms to shoot, it is just that back when the companies started doing them commercially, they didn't know what worked best, so tried to incorporate what they thought was the most up to date features.

[swathdiver]

Hi,
My new to me Pedersoli Pennsylvania rifle in 32 caliber has been a lot of work. It does shoot pretty well - however it fouls like crazy.

You're an excellent candidate for Dutch Schoultz's "The System", best $20 you'll ever spend on the sport.

Wiping between shots is not to clean your barrel, it's to return it to it's previous condition for consistent shot placement. Clean at the end of the days shooting.

[Lead Fred]

Burnt black powder and oil makes sludge. You are creating your own problem.

Use boiling water and get all that crud out of your barrel. Then use TC 1000+ bore butter to season the barrel.
Use TC 1000+ patches, and number 13 cleaner, and you wont have any loading problems

[Omnivore]

A patent breech in a flintlock gun will place the flash hole farther to the rear (or rather, keep it in its original, old school position) while providing more thread depth for the breech plug. I believe that was its sole purpose, and was the way to address the earlier practice of using shallow thread depth on a flat face plug.

To have the deeper threads and a flat face plug, the flash hole must be moved forward, which alters the construction of the rest of the gun - you'd need either a redesigned lock, or the lock plate would need to be relocated, which in turn relocates the trigger and changes the length of pull, etc. all that or the barrel must sit farther back in the stock. The relationship between the fence and the pan on the lock itself is, or should be, determined by the thread depth of a solid breech. There's no easy answer, that I know, to changing over from a hollow breech to solid, unless you give up some substantial thread depth, which may be a safety issue.

On a small bore like that it's probably not a big deal (you're not trying for thousand foot pound loads) but I thought that some of the architecture and construction theory should be injected here. I may not have all the details exactly right, because I'm only going from the memory of having read about it, but the gist of it is there.

If you know you have a hollow breech and you've done a little experimenting to find out what fits inside it for cleaning, it's really not a big deal at all. As far as pushing crud into it goes; you're doing that with a solid breech too. I haven't known it to be a problem.

[repawn]

Wow - thanks all for the information; after shooting and cleaning a few times I have currently settled on this:

I clean with regular water - hot water doesn't seem to be any better than cold;

I pump water through it - it seems to clean the patent breech;

I previously oiled with ballistol - but may just use regular rem oil or clp - unless someone has a better oil; I have used bore butter in the past;

I think most of the hassle with cleaning it is that it is such a small bore :)

Even running a patch between shots is difficult at times - I have managed to get the ramrod stuck a bunch doing that.

I will make sure the next flinter I get does not have a patent breech. I will keep this one as it is.

[Maven]

Marvel Mystery Oil, WD-40, ATF, or a combination of all 3 works very well for me here in the humid Hudson Valley. Ballistol was less effective (good for a patch lube when diluted, though), but more expensive, and almost impossible to find locally.

[waksupi]

Burnt black powder and oil makes sludge. You are creating your own problem.

Use boiling water and get all that crud out of your barrel. Then use TC 1000+ bore butter to season the barrel.
Use TC 1000+ patches, and number 13 cleaner, and you wont have any loading problems

I repeat. YOU CAN NOT SEASON A BARREL! Bore Butter increases fouling problems.

[mooman76]

Most of my MLs have patient breeches and they have never given me a minutes trouble when I do my part. I really don't understand why some people have so much trouble with them when others do not.

[mooman76]

Sounds like your cleaning jab is too big or too tight especially if it's getting stuck. It needs to be loose enough so when you run a patch down the bore, it will go past the fouling and then when you pull the jag back, the cleaning patch bunches up and pulls the fouling out rather than push the fouling down into the breech. This is especially important with a patient breech since it is smaller. You can make it smaller by chucking it on a drill and a little sand paper to take it down some. Do a little at a time because you don't want it too small.

[Maven]

Most of my MLs have patient breeches and they have never given me a minutes trouble when I do my part. I really don't understand why some people have so much trouble with them when others do not.


Amen to this, mooman!

[Maven]

waksupi's correct about "seasoning" ML bbl's. For a more complete explanation, take a look at this: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/251958/

[fouronesix]

Most of my MLs have patient breeches and they have never given me a minutes trouble when I do my part. I really don't understand why some people have so much trouble with them when others do not.

:) I don't know about "patient" breeches but also have to agree. I started out shooting MLs with patent breeches 47 years ago. Didn't have any particular problem with them but then again didn't have an internet telling me that they were junk either. Since then have owned, built and shot all varieties of breeches without any of the "miserable" reported results. It's mostly a matter of learning what makes them work and "managing" them. Generally, for me at least, the smaller the bore the more I have to pay attention to that management.

[Texantothecore]

Are you using hot water to clean with? Hot is not needed and can cause flash rust. Just use warm water and dry good when finished before you oil it up before putting away.


Use cold water. I had the same thing happen in my .50 and it convinced me that it was a mistake to use hot water. Cold water and soap will do quite fine.