AR pistol question.

[mdr8088]

I have that itch again this year,(no it's not a rash.) I need to build another AR. I've been looking at building an AR pistol upper, in 300 blackout. Then I can shoot cast. My questions are:

1. How accurate is 300 blackout with a short barrel? I've been looking into a 9" and 10.5". I'm looking for a range toy, maybe some home defense, but mainly to play.(100 yds. max)

2. I've seen some pistol barrels with a straight gas tube, I've always thought the gas tubes for pistols where supposed to wrap around the barrel to slow cycling and reduce pressure?

3. To make the ATF guys happy, If I build a pistol upper, do I have to take the stock off my lower when I put them together? Or do I need a completely different lower to be "legal"? (I know I could go to a .gov website read endless babbling codes, end up with a migraine, get drunk, and still not understand legal ease. Was hoping to avoid all that.)

Thanks in advance.

[lancem]

My understanding, which may be completely wrong is that you need a lower that was registered as a pistol when purchased. Also because of this don't buy the upper until you have the lower because if you do you would have an unregistered SBR since it could be assembled to your rifle lower.

[jakharath]

Once a rifle always a rifle. You have to have a lower registered as a pistol. Also you can't put a foregrip on the pistol or it turns in to an AOW. You can put a Magpul AFG without changing the classification.

I have a few friends with short barreled 300BO's but they all use j-words.

[kencha]

1. 300blk can be plenty accurate, esp at 100yds or less. Depending upon your build, fit of boolits, etc, YMMV. Length of barrel really has no direct affect on a gun's inherent accuracy, although longer barrels with iron sights can be easier to shoot accurately, longer barrels that are less "whippy" can be easier to shoot accurately, etc.

2. I believe pigtail gas tubes are rarely, if ever, required for 300blk. They are looked down upon for use with the 300blk, with very few, if any, exceptions at the 300blktalk forum.

3. The old "Once a rifle, always a rifle" is not an absolute, but in this case, as others have said, you legally need to use a lower that didn't start out as a rifle in the books. Don't swap your rifle lower back and forth (and, yes, if you were to swap, a stock or possibly even a buffer tube that can readily accept a stock, could instantly make it an SBR regardless of the rifle/pistol/receiver status of the lower on any 4473).

[Huntsman52]

Just finish a 9" 300 BO pistol. Have not had a chance to shoot but I bet it will be plenty accurate.

You would be better off just purchasing a new stripped lower as it will be not be classified as a rifle or a pistol lower. That way you can build a pistol or make it a rifle at a later date if you choose.

As for the buffer tube any standard carbine length works well in 300 BO. Just do not put a stock on it unless you have the SBR Tax Stamp approved and in your hands. You just need to make sure the buffer tube will not readily accept a stock like adding a cover that is not so easy to remove.

For the gas tube just a pistol length should work fine for both super and suppressed. FYI Ares Armor is having a sale on their 9" 300 BO barrels for $99. That is what I used and it appears to be of good quality.

[1johnlb]

3. The old "Once a rifle, always a rifle" is not an absolute, but in this case, as others have said, you legally need to use a lower that didn't start out as a rifle in the books. Don't swap your rifle lower back and forth (and, yes, if you were to swap, a stock or possibly even a buffer tube that can readily accept a stock, could instantly make it an SBR regardless of the rifle/pistol/receiver status of the lower on any 4473).

This is correct^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^.

A receiver having never been barreled a rifle is considered a gun. Once its barreled a rifle it's always considered a rifle. When built as a pistol from a virgin receiver not having a stock or vertical grip is considered a pistol. If a stock or vertical grip is ever added its considered a sbr. If it's ever barreled a rifle then barreled a pistol it is again considered a sbr regardless of its format. If it's built as a pistol with the intent of shooting it from the shoulder again it's considered a sbr. A pistol can be changed to a rifle but never the other way. Be sure when you purchase a lower that the ffl dealer does not put rifle on the 4473, if he does its always a rifle.

Some how, I'm not sure the tc encore has been given the sole privilege of the ability to be changed from rifle to pistol without being classified a sbr. Maybe someone else can chime in on it.

Do your homework. If you visit local or public ranges or travel with it, you are bound to run in to an officer as I did, who is not briefed with the laws and very well and ready to test you. The more knowledge you have and are confident of it when asked will save you some headache, at least it did me.

[Omega]

This is correct^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^.

A receiver having never been barreled a rifle is considered a gun. Once its barreled a rifle it's always considered a rifle. When built as a pistol from a virgin receiver not having a stock or vertical grip is considered a pistol. If a stock or vertical grip is ever added its considered a sbr. If it's ever barreled a rifle then barreled a pistol it is again considered a sbr regardless of its format. If it's built as a pistol with the intent of shooting it from the shoulder again it's considered a sbr. A pistol can be changed to a rifle but never the other way. Be sure when you purchase a lower that the ffl dealer does not put rifle on the 4473, if he does its always a rifle.

Some how, I'm not sure the tc encore has been given the sole privilege of the ability to be changed from rifle to pistol without being classified a sbr. Maybe someone else can chime in on it.

Do your homework. If you visit local or public ranges or travel with it, you are bound to run in to an officer as I did, who is not briefed with the laws and very well and ready to test you. The more knowledge you have and are confident of it when asked will save you some headache, at least it did me.Not quite right, or at least a little misleading. In ARs a lower is the only thing that is classified a gun or a rifle. When purchased as a stripped lower it is neither a gun OR rifle if written up correctly. Now comes the mud; if you make a gun with it first then it can be a gun or rifle back and forth. If you make a rifle with it first it must always be a rifle (or SBR). Now how would the ATF prove it?? Well that's the million dollar question, if worried about it just take a dated photo in its pistol configuration to archive its birth and you are golden. The rules are so messed up its no wonder many of us would love to abolish the GCA and the ATF.

As for the upper receiver, it can take what ever barrel you want to put on it, but if its shorter than 16" you must first have a pistol lower to go with it; again don't know how the ATF would find out but that is the way the law is written which is to say you now have intent to make an SBR if you don't have a pistol lower yet.

[xacex]

Not quite right, or at least a little misleading. In ARs a lower is the only thing that is classified a gun or a rifle. When purchased as a stripped lower it is neither a gun OR rifle if written up correctly. Now comes the mud; if you make a gun with it first then it can be a gun or rifle back and forth. If you make a rifle with it first it must always be a rifle (or SBR). Now how would the ATF prove it?? Well that's the million dollar question, if worried about it just take a dated photo in its pistol configuration to archive its birth and you are golden. The rules are so messed up its no wonder many of us would love to abolish the GCA and the ATF.

As for the upper receiver, it can take whatever barrel you want to put on it, but if its shorter than 16" you must first have a pistol lower to go with it; again don't know how the ATF would find out but that is the way the law is written which is to say you now have intent to make an SBR if you don't have a pistol lower yet.

This is correct, and there are court cases, and letters from the BATF stating this. Pistol first, then you can switch back and forth as long as you do not inadvertently turn it into a SBR in the process. No need for a pistol marked lower as a lower is transferred as a receiver on the 4473 so it can be both. You can use a standard buffer tube if you make it not able to readily accept your stock. This can be as simple as wrapping the buffer tube with para cord, jb weld in the detents. To prevent any problem with uninformed LE I would use a dedicated pistol buffer tube. They are cheap on ebay. I take a picture that is dated with a newspaper to verify the date of construction as a pistol for my records if they are ever needed.

As for the questions about accuracy I have got sub moa. .66" with a 300BLK using the barnes tac-tx 110's. This with with a 8.5" barrel. Barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy, and in fact can be more accurate (depending on your ability to use it) than a rifle because of reduced barrel harmonics. A short barrel is stiffer so to speak.
A pigtail gas tube is not necessary, and I would not put one on a 300 BLK. They were primarily used in .223, and x39 guns to slow the gas impulse to that of a rifle to reduce short stroking. The blackout was designed to use a standard gas tube without any of these issues due to powder burn rates.

BTW, a 300 BLK pistol is more than a range toy, and fills a nice role as a defencive firearm or a hunting firearm. It has taken deer for me without issue. Even with cast I am able to push the 300bkl to jacketed velocity, and achieve under 2" groups without to much trouble at 100 yards. For a pistol that is just fine, and it get carried all season long during the general buck season out here.

[1johnlb]

I stand corrected according to this letter.

https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/.../atf.../atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

Be sure not to miss the last line above the date. Because according to the written NFA and GCA there is NO exclusion for swap kits or redesignation.

[lancem]

I stand corrected according to this letter.

https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/.../atf.../atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

Be sure not to miss the last line above the date. Because according to the written NFA and GCA there is NO exclusion for swap kits or redesignation.

I get permission denied at the link.

[1johnlb]

https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/.../atf.../atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf U.S. Department of JusticeBureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives
Office of the Director
Washington, DC 20226
26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3): DEFINITIONS (FIREARM )
26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4): DEFINITIONS (FIREARM)
26 U.S.C. 5845(c): DEFINITIONS (RIFLE)
27 CFR 479.11: DEFINITIONS (RIFLE)
27 CFR 479.11: DEFINITIONS (PISTOL)
A firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is
made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they: (a)
serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than
16 inches in length; or (b) convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm. A
firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts within a kit
that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or
re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle
with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in length). A firearm, as defined by 26
U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts
designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in
length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the
NFA (e.g., as a pistol). A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a
handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or
barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon
originally assembled or produced only as a rifle.
ATF Rul. 2011-4
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has received requests
from individuals to classify pistols that are reconfigured into rifles, for personal use,
through the addition of barrels, stocks, and other parts and then returned to a pistol
configuration by removal of those components. Specifically, ATF has been asked to
determine whether such a pistol, once returned to a pistol configuration from a rifle,
becomes a “weapon made from a rifle” as defined under the National Firearms Act (NFA).
Some manufacturers produce firearm receivers and attachable component parts that are
designed to be assembled into both rifles and pistols. The same receiver can accept an
interchangeable shoulder stock or pistol grip, and a long (16 or more inches in length) or
short (less than 16 inches) barrel. These components are sold individually, or as
unassembled kits. Generally, the kits include a receiver, a pistol grip, a pistol barrel less
than 16 inches in length, a shoulder stock, and a rifle barrel 16 inches or more in length.

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Certain parts or parts sets are also designed to allow an individual to convert a pistol into a
rifle without removing a barrel or attaching a shoulder stock to the pistol. These parts
consist of an outer shell with a shoulder stock into which the pistol may be inserted. When
inserted, the pistol fires a projectile through a rifled extension barrel that is 16 inches or
more in length, and with an overall length of 26 inches or more. Other parts sets require
that certain parts of the pistol, such as the pistol barrel and the slide assembly, be removed
from the pistol frame prior to attaching the parts sets. Typically, a separate barrel is sold
with the parts set, which is 16 inches or greater in length. The barrel is installed along with
an accompanying shoulder stock. The resulting firearm has a barrel of 16 inches or more
in length, and an overall length of 26 inches or more.
The NFA, Title 26, United States Code (U.S.C.), Chapter 53, requires that persons
manufacturing, importing, transferring, or possessing firearms as defined in the NFA
comply with the Act’s licensing, registration, and taxation requirements. The NFA defines
the term “firearm” at 26 U.S.C. 5845(a) to include “(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of
less than 16 inches in length;” (“short-barreled rifle”) and “(4) a weapon made from a rifle
if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or
barrels of less than 16 inches in length” (“weapon made from a rifle”). The term “rifle” is
defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(c) and 27 CFR 479.11 as “a weapon designed or redesigned,
made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned
and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a
single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include
any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.” Although not
defined in the NFA, the term “pistol” is defined by the Act’s implementing regulations, 27
CFR 479.11, as “a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile
(bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an
integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed
to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s)”
(emphasis added).
Unassembled Parts Kits
In United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Company, 504 U.S. 505 (1992), the United
States Supreme Court examined whether a short-barreled rifle was “made” under the NFA
when a carbine-conversion kit consisting of a single-shot “Contender” pistol was designed
so that its handle and barrel could be removed from its receiver, and was packaged with a
21-inch barrel, a rifle stock, and a wooden fore-end. The Court held that, where
aggregated parts could convert a pistol into either a regulated short-barreled rifle, or an
unregulated rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, the NFA was ambiguous and
applied the “rule of lenity” (i.e., ambiguities in criminal statutes should be resolved in
favor of the defendant) so that the pistol and carbine kit, when packaged together, were not
considered a “short-barreled rifle” for purposes of the NFA.
However, the Court also explained that an NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in
close proximity such that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA
firearm (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and a short barrel); or (b) convert a

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complete weapon into an NFA firearm (e.g., a pistol and attachable shoulder stock, or a
long-barreled rifle and attachable short barrel). Id. at 511-13.
Assembly of Weapons from Parts Kits
The Thompson/Center Court viewed the parts within the conversion kit not only as a
Contender pistol, but also as an unassembled “rifle” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(c). The
inclusion of the rifle stock in the package brought the Contender pistol and carbine kit
within the "intended to be fired from the shoulder" language in the definition of rifle at 26
U.S.C. 5845(c). Id. at 513 n.6. Thompson/Center did not address the subsequent assembly
of the parts. United States v. Ardoin, 19 F.3d 177, 181 (5th Cir. 1994). Based on the
definition of “firearm” in 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), if parts are assembled into a rifle having a
barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, a regulated short-barreled rifle has been
made. See, e.g., United States v. Owens, 103 F.3d 953 (11th Cir. 1997); United States v.
One (1) Colt Ar-15, 394 F. Supp. 2d 1064 (W.D.Tenn. 2004). Conversely, if the parts are
assembled into a rifle having a barrel or barrels 16 inches in length or more, a rifle not
subject to the NFA has been made.
Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm
regulated under the NFA (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or “any other weapon” as defined by
26 U.S.C. 5845(e)), no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or re-
assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a
barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle
does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown
condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts). Likewise, because it is the same
weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no “weapon made from a rifle” subject to the NFA
has been made.
Nonetheless, if a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or
a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length is assembled or otherwise produced from
a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle, such a weapon is a “weapon
made from a rifle” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4). Such a weapon would not be a
“pistol” because the weapon was not originally designed, made, and intended to fire a
projectile by one hand.
Held, a firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C.
5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way
that they:
(a) Serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of
less than 16 inches in length (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and
barrel of less than 16 inches in length); or
(b) Convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm, including –
(1) A pistol and attachable shoulder stock; and


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(2) A rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and an attachable barrel
of less than 16 inches in length.
Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA.
Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made
when parts in a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a
rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g.,
as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length).
Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made
when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a
barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration
not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol).
Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun
or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less
than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or
produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all
requirements of the NFA.
To the extent this ruling may be inconsistent with any prior letter rulings, they are hereby
superseded.
Date approved: July 25, 2011
Kenneth E. Melson
Acting Director

[xacex]

In layman's terms since the Thomson vs US case you can have a "kit" which an AR is built by yourself configured as a pistol, and as a rifle so long as you do not inadvertently make a SBR in the process of converting back and forth. However, if you have a purchased rifle and no pistol or stripped lower that you can make into a pistol, and a short barreled upper for a pistol you are in violation of the NFA because it is considered a SBR, or intent to build an SBR.

Wait till you get the the vertical grip part of the whole NFA thing. BATF has said no to vertical foregrips, but yes to angled foregrips such as the Magpul AFG. Now tell me how that makes any sense.

[mdr8088]

Thanks guys. I guess the AnTi Fun police don't want to make it simple. I thought yeah take the stock off the buffer tube, slap together a new upper and I got a new toy. The only way I can make this the cheap way is to get a 16" barrel. I'm sure when they wrote, "shall not be infringed" they probably had no idea of the ATF. An organization that was made to infringe upon our life. I wonder how many people have done what I was planning to do, and learned the hard way they're criminals. The real criminals are going to build it and not care.

[lancem]

OK, so what if I have a 80% lower that I finish up, of course I don't ever expect to see an ATF man at my house where it will never leave but what if??

[xacex]

OK, so what if I have a 80% lower that I finish up, of course I don't ever expect to see an ATF man at my house where it will never leave but what if??
If you already have a rifle, and want to do a pistol with the parts just go out and get one of those $49.99 Anderson lowers and put your junk in that. It is not rocket science, and once that one is done you can swap it around "legally." But what happens behind closed doors is just that. I would not want to be caught with something that was in the books as a rifle configured as a pistol though. Another option is to SBR it on a form 1. That will cost you $200 for the stamp. I have both and frankly I like the SBR more than a pistol, but I have to fill out another form if I want to take it out of state which is a pain. That, and some places I visit are not NFA friendly.


OK, so what if I have a 80% lower that I finish up, of course I don't ever expect to see an ATF man at my house where it will never leave but what if??
Same rules apply. I always keep some uncut 80% lowers around. They are not a bad investment for the future. Frankly, even if you buy a lower on a 4473 what is the difference? The "man" knows you have a lower that could be a pistol or a rifle, or will know when the dealer hand over there 4473's. I actually finish my 80% lowers into pistols as soon as they are done because I have the uppers, etch "pistol" on the lower, and photograph them with a date no matter what my intentional build may be. I like to cover all my bases.

[mdr8088]

Wow I thought the SBR stamp was like $600. That would be as cheap as building a pistol lower, well about. The dealers around here want $50 to do the background check If I order the lower. Is it hard to go that way? $200.00 isn't to bad.

[1johnlb]

You can get all the info in the batf Web site. The real question is if your chief law enforcement officer willing to sign off, some will, some won't. At least that's the issues here in NC.

[dragon813gt]

CLEO sign off was supposed to go away. But of course they haven't moved forward w/ it. The sign off was supposed to go to a simple notification like they currently receive w/ trusts. Making things easy is the last thing they will ever do. The NFA rules are fairly simple and wait times are down. The longer you wait to start the process the longer it's going to take until you get to play w/ the toys.

A SBR w/ a RDIAS is on my wish list :)

[xacex]

Wow I thought the SBR stamp was like $600. That would be as cheap as building a pistol lower, well about. The dealers around here want $50 to do the background check If I order the lower. Is it hard to go that way? $200.00 isn't to bad.
I find doing a form 1 with a gun trust to be the easiest and fastest way to get it done. NO chief law enforcement sign off needed at the moment with a trust, but they are working on 41p which may do away with that. It has been postponed until fall at least as of right now so get your forms in before then if you have a douche for a CLEO. BATF takes any credit card online. Takes about 20 minutes to file, and about 2 months wait right now.

Here is a great visual guide to help you fill out the form on Eforms. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_17/441796_Visual_guide__How_to_fill_out_a_Form_1_usin g_EFORMS__New_Thread_.html

And a provider of a trust online. You have to fill it out, and have it notarized.Then turn it into a PDF so the file is small enough to upload to BATF. Use use code SDTACTICAL for $5 off.

http://www.coyoterifleworks.com/nfa-trust

I have filled out a few forms myself. One warning it is addictive, and $200 may turn into an itch for more stamps for suppressors and such. I am on my second form 1 suppressor, and cant wait to do the third, fourth ect. As long as you don't put something like "zombie protection" as your reason to be making one, and put " all lawful reasons" your paperwork should go smooth, and not get kicked back to you. I am more than willing to help you pop that NFA cherry. PM me if you get stuck somewhere.