Pull down surplus 7.62x54R powder for use in 7.62x54R with different bullets

[atl5029]

Hi all,

I want to do some load development with an unknown powder I have pulled down from some milsurp 7.62x54R, but before people start telling me I'm gonna blow my face off, let me explain what I want to do, I'm sure it's quite reasonable.

My customized mosin does not shoot milsurp ammo well, but loves the Hornady .312" diameter bullets. I had about 200 rounds of Bulgarian brass cased heavy ball ammo and disassembled the ammo. I intended on just using the primed brass for handloading, but I also have a good bit of powder now too. The bullets are .3095-.3105" and are useless to me. What I would like to do is use the powder and berdan primed brass to remanufacture the ammo with the Hornady .312" 174 grain Match BTHP instead of the original 182 grain FMJ-BT. I'm not using it in another cartridge or anything like that.

Does anyone have any experience doing anything like this? I noted the charges of about 30-40 of the rounds and most had a charge of 49 grains, but some had as much as 54 grains. I plan on starting well below 49 grains and work up to 50. Does that seem overly unreasonable or dangerous to anyone? If so, why?

Thanks!

[Outpost75]

The larger diameter, soft-core Hornady bullets will generate higher pressure than the stiffly jacketed "D" ball. The range of powder charges in the rounds you pulled suggests that more than one type, or at least different lots of similar powder were used. Without benefit of pressure test equipment, I would learn towards the side of caution. If all you are going to do is punch paper anyway, I don't see the point in working back up.

I assume the powder is on the fast side, and would cut the charge 10% below 49 grains, to 44 grains, try a few and if they shoot OK, LEAVE IT ALONE!!!

In my Finn M39 rifle with the Sierra .311" 174-grain MatchKing I load 44 grs. of IMR4064 in Norma cases with Federal 210M primers and the load is extremely accurate. Velocity is 2470 fps.

[madsenshooter]

Don't waste that powder, that's for sure. With a 5gr difference though, you might have had a couple different lots. If you've already got it mixed, mix well. In general it's about 4895 speed and it worked really good in my Garand, counting the sighters I shot 10 Xs last year at Camp Perry using what Jeff Bartlett called Russian Surplus 4895. I wound up with a 97-5X.

[StratsMan]

All caveats in place... I would never encourage anyone to commit unsafe practices by using unknown powders, and mysterious bullet/powder combinations; etc, etc....

I, however, am an 'experimenter' by nature.... Your idea is one that I might try myself. I know it's not kosher to compare powders, but this recipe puts the powder in the vicinity of H414. (Oh yeah... based on Madsden's post, I now recall the "Russian 4895" recently...) Reducing the load with a lighter, but tighter, bullet shows good potential for keeping the pressures reasonable....

Whether accuracy is worth a hill o' beans remains to be seen. What powder did you use to get good accuracy with those Hdy 174 grain bullets???

Let us know what you decide....

[atl5029]

Thanks everyone for your input. Lemme tell y'all a little more about my gun and the ammo I pulled to maybe clear a few thing up. I have slugged my mosin 91/30 bore at .314-.315, which is why it doesn't shoot any of the .311 or smaller bullets worth a damn. I haven't tried the .311 174 gr sierra match kings though. I favored the Hornadys because they are closer to my bore dimension, but they are still slightly undersized.

The ammo I pulled was all from the same tin, not a collection of ammo I accumulated over the years, so I'm fairly certain the powder is consistent. It is this ammo: http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinAmmo016.htm, except it is head stamped with 54 rather than 55. Most of the charges I weighed was right around 49 grains. Maybe 1 in every 9 or 10 had a heavier charge by a couple grains and only a few I measured out of the 200 rounds was as high as 54 grains.

Unless I find any better advice or better information , I'll probably take Outpost's advice and work with a reduced load as long as it works well. I'm going to try to do as much research I can into this powder before working up a load.

Question for Madsenshooter: Did you use powder specifically from heavy ball 7.62x54R in your garand? If so I'm interested to hear more about your experience with it.

Lastly here's what I use for those 174 grain Hornady bullets: PPU match brass, Federal 210 primer, and a max load of IMR 4064 of 45.7 grains. COAL 2.855". I got the load data from Hornady, who claimed 2600 fps from a 25.25" barrel. My barrel has been shortened to 18.5 inches with a brake, so assuming a loss of about 25 fps per inch of barrel, I'm guessing they are in the neighborhood of 2400-2450 fps, but I haven't chrono'd them yet.

Any other info or advice you guys can provide is much appreciated!

[aspangler]

I did almost the same thing last fall for some hunting ammo. I pulled the 150 gr ball and averaged the load in them. 49.2 grains. Put 49 grains back in and added a 150 grain Speer soft nose and got better accuracy and less recoil. Some of that stuff is preety hot. Worked well for me. YMMV

[atl5029]

So I did a quick search on this Russian 4895 powder and I have read some people say this this powder is indeed made for the 7.62x54R, but rather than burning at H4895 speed it burns more at IMR 4064 speed. Can anyone verify this? I am going to base my loads from the charges I weighed out and reduce them a little, but I was also going to compare this powder to some load data as a sanity check and am now wondering if I should be looking at H4895 or IMR4064 data.

I also just found out that this practice is often referred to as making "Mexican Match" ammo...that's hilarious.

[pworley1]

I have done a similar procedure many times back when you could buy Russian surplus for about 5 cents. I pulled down the ammo and used the powder in 30 06 cast reduced by about 15%.

[Shiloh]

A fellow shooter did this with Turkish 8mm Mauser ammo. Reduced the powder charge to get rid of the horrendous kick.
He also loaded some back up with a soft point bullet. Very good results.

Shiloh

[madsenshooter]

What Jeff was selling burned about 4064 speed. If you reduce it like you're planning and work up, shouldn't be any problem. you're going. I don't think Jeff's was pulldown, comparing the load data is a good idea, I don't think you'll find much difference between 4895 and 4064.

[GhostHawk]

Mexican Match

I've pulled the loads on at least 60 rounds of PPU 150 gr SP, to replace them with my powder and cast bullet.
Powder charges were weighed, and saved, marked. Some of the jacketed SP bullets were loaded into 7.62x39 as finding hunting loads for it without paying through the nose is tough.

I used IMR 4895 and (I know it isn't H 4895) but I reduced the loads anyway. Worked my way all the way down to 20 grains, then back up into the 28 area where I found pretty decent accuracy.

I have not tried to shoot those at 100 yards yet as my eyes simply won't do it accurately that far.
But I was getting pop can sized groups at 50 and the bore cleaned up wonderfully.

You can learn a lot about ammo by taking a box of it apart, measure each powder charge. Weigh bullets, note that some brands have some pretty wide variations, while others are very good. It is part of what made Privi Partizan my #1 choice for ammo across the board.

[runfiverun]

never mind what powder you think it is.
follow outposts advice, cut the load and be safe.
make dang sure you have whatever it is you got mixed well too otherwise you end up with too much of the fast lot and too little of the slow lot.

btw that's how we ended up with 3031, 4895, and 4064 powders.
they were all supposed to be 4895, but manufacturing tolerances being what they are and it being war time close nuff is close nuff.
once it's tested the loads are just changed slightly enough to get the job done.

[Motor]

The only aspect of what you want to do that is suspect is the mixing of the powder.

I made a thread once about pulling Czech silver tips and reloading the powder and bullets into boxer primed brass with fresh primers. I weighed a sample lot then (which was all within 3gr) and chose a load that was equal to the low end. Doing this pretty much elimenated the fliers I was getting. I posted that all the ammo was from the same crate.

I had guys respond that said while pulling ammo from the same spam can that they found an obvious change in powder like going from extruded to ball type powder. That is kind of scarey.

Mixing lots is one thing. Mixing types is another all together. Be careful.

Motor

[atl5029]

So I started some load development with this powder. Using the original berdan primed brass cases, I loaded a 174 grain Hornady Interlock on top of a starting load of 40 grains of powder and increased the charge weight by .5 grains up to 45 grains. Before I shoot them, I'll need to buy or borrow a chronograph so I can monitor muzzle velocity as I check the brass for pressure signs. If I get acceptable results, I'll have plenty of good ammo to shoot all summer!

[littlejack]

If that bullet does not do well, try the Hornaday .312 150 grain spire point. My M44 with shoot moa or less with that bullet.
Jack

[atl5029]

If that bullet does not do well, try the Hornaday .312 150 grain spire point. My M44 with shoot moa or less with that bullet.
Jack

I'll keep that bullet in mind! With IMR 4064 I have got good results with the 174 grain RN interlock-MOA at 100 yards. Load data for the 174 grain Match BTHP is the same and I am going to try that next. I expect the results will be as good or better. Eventually for long range hunting I want to try the 186 grain GSC monolithic bullet.

[littlejack]

Yes sir, IMR 4064 is the only powder that I use in my Mosin. It is a good combination in the 20" barrel of my M44.

[Japlmg]

I've been pulling down 7.62x54r for bullets and powder for 30 years.
I and two friends bought 50 cases (100 tins) about 20 years ago, when the stuff was like 6 cents a round delivered.
60 tins were mine, and I still have about 25 tins to go.

Yes, the Russian stick powder from 7.62x54r looks and acts very much like IMR 4895.
I normally load the pulled bullets into 7.7x58 Japanese to feed my Japanese T99 LMG's.
But I have also used the pulled bullets and powder to load 303 British, and 7.62x54r.

I use a chronograph to slowly work my way up to military spec velocities and stop there.
I have never seem any sign of excessive pressure with my reloads.

Gregg