k-31 problem

[legend]

i bought a hundred privi partizan cases to load for my k-31.i loaded all hundred with 16gr 2400,cci 200 and311299;they shot fine(probably better than i had a right to expect) since that load worked i loaded 10 more to take the neighbors son out to shoot(no dad around) and none would shoot! the fireing pin had not hit the primer,i did check to see that the bolt was closed all the way,it was.

the first fireing was with new brass it chambered fine without sizeing,so,idid not size it before shooting.

the second loading i just neck sized,with my lee dies the neck could only be sized about 3/4 the way down the neck before the die hit the shoulder.i backed off the die untill it would not hit the shoulder and went on to load them.

i have been a reloader for 40 plus years,i cant wrap my head around this problem so i hope someone else might have the answer.

it almost seems like the brass now goes too far into the chamber,and thats why the pin does not hit it.

thanks for any ideas!

[jhrosier]

Cases for the K31 rifle must be full length sized.
Other wise the bolt will not close.
If the bolt doesn't close completely, the gun will not fire.

Jack

[garandsrus]

Legend,

When the bolt completely closes on the K-31, the number on the bolt will be on top of the bolt. Also, the little tab on the bolt handle will be flush with the receiver. Here's a link (http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/4737) that includes pictures :)

John

[Ricochet]

Cases for the K31 rifle must be full length sized.
Other wise the bolt will not close.

That's not always right. I'm neck sizing Prvi Partizan brass with a Lee collet die. I have some that are on their 8th firing, I think, and I have yet to get my full length sizing die out of the box.

Have you very carefully cleaned the inside of the bolt? Dried Cosmoline or other debris can obstruct the forward motion of the firing pin. Really work on the inside of the recess in the bolt head the firing pin passes through.

If you really think the cases are moving forward out of contact with the bolt face and firing pin tip, you should check your headspace and find out what's wrong. I doubt that's the case.

I need to strip my bolt and measure my firing pin spring so I can figure out a replacement. Wolf Gun Springs has no clue what it uses. Mine will fire standard primers reliably but gives a very light indentation, and it won't fire CCI #34 primers (of which I have a good supply) without multiple strikes.

On the Swiss Rifles board they seem to think that the bolt not being fully closed is the ONLY reason for a K-31 failing to fire, but Swiss springs can relax with long use, too.

[mike in co]

"the second loading i just neck sized,with my lee dies the neck could only be sized about 3/4 the way down the neck before the die hit the shoulder.i backed off the die untill it would not hit the shoulder and went on to load them."
and then they did not fit....who woulda guessed!

get a die for the k-31!..not just a 7.5 x55 die.....and life will be better.( redding, maybe the new hornady's and call lee ,,but dont hold your breath)

you will need to 3/4 size the body to full size the neck with a lee die....at this point they will probably allow the bolt to close.

sorry but we have been over this alot........aand it was mentioned when you were talking about getting the rifle.......

[Calamity Jake]

I have 2 K-31's, one of them flat refuses to fire neck sized cases. they must be FL sized.
I'm using a Redding die set after finding out my RCBS set is for the K11.
Anybody got a good K11 they want to sell. :razz:

[beemer]

If the bolt is not fully closed the firing pin is blocked. However the cases are sized and loaded they need to chamber freely because the bolt doesn't have the camming power of the mauser type action. In my opinion they need to be treated like a semi-auto. At the same time wear,tolerences and different loads can cause different problems. I've read all I could find heard a lot and tried what sounded reasonable but ended up buying a set of Redding dies.

It never hurts to strip an old rifle and clean the cosmo out, especially around the chamber area,barrel,bolt and trigger.
I have two of these critters they are a little strange but I like to tinker around with them. Proper loads with J-word bullets will scare Remchesters to death.I haven't completely worked out the boolits yet (got side tracked) but there looked to be a lot of promise.

beemer

[legend]

thank you all for your thoughts,i will clean the bolt,full resize,try again,and then probably buy redding if i have not found the cure.
i appreciate your help!

[garandsrus]

Legend,

Did you figure out if your bolt is closing completely?

John

[jack19512]

[QUOTE=mike in co;306113
get a die for the k-31!..not just a 7.5 x55 die.....and life will be better.( redding, maybe the new hornady's and call lee ,,but dont hold your breath)

QUOTE]





I have been reloading for my K31 for a long time now and unless there is something wrong with the Lee dies to start with the dies are not the problem. I use the Lee dies and the only time I have ever had a failure to fire is when I do something wrong and my bolt doesn't completely close, and it doesn't take but very little for the rifle not to fire.

I have absolutely no problem with anyone who wants to purchase the Redding dies but people please stop blaming Lee dies for all of the reloading problems you have with your K31. :roll:

[chuebner]

I have absolutely no problem with anyone who wants to purchase the Redding dies but people please stop blaming Lee dies for all of the reloading problems you have with your K31.

It's always easier to blame the tool rather then technique. Both my K31's will eat any CB load I put through them and ALL have only had neck sizing with the Lee collet die. The only time my Lee FL sizer came out to play was when I resized 284 Win brass to 7.5X55. My own experience has shown no reason for FL sizing on reduced CB loads. Full power J-bullet loads are another story.

Charlie

[725]

I love this site. The learning just never stops.

[mike in co]

It's always easier to blame the tool rather then technique. Both my K31's will eat any CB load I put through them and ALL have only had neck sizing with the Lee collet die. The only time my Lee FL sizer came out to play was when I resized 284 Win brass to 7.5X55. My own experience has shown no reason for FL sizing on reduced CB loads. Full power J-bullet loads are another story.

Charlie


maybe...not sure yet...
i did get the lee collet die for my k-31's...but have not used it yet...i should have added it to the list.
mike in co

[mike in co]

[QUOTE=mike in co;306113
get a die for the k-31!..not just a 7.5 x55 die.....and life will be better.( redding, maybe the new hornady's and call lee ,,but dont hold your breath)

QUOTE]



I have been reloading for my K31 for a long time now and unless there is something wrong with the Lee dies to start with the dies are not the problem. I use the Lee dies and the only time I have ever had a failure to fire is when I do something wrong and my bolt doesn't completely close, and it doesn't take but very little for the rifle not to fire.

I have absolutely no problem with anyone who wants to purchase the Redding dies but people please stop blaming Lee dies for all of the reloading problems you have with your K31. :roll:

jack..you missed the point.

we were talking about trying to neck size.......which cannot be done with a lee....it starts resizing the body long before a reasonable amount of neck has been sized.

[runfiverun]

i use an actual neck sizer on both 31's and the 98/11, with 284 brass and norma
i havn't had any problems with cast nor jacketed
as long as the bullit will fit the throat,and the case neck fits the chamber.

[jack19512]

jack..you missed the point.

we were talking about trying to neck size.......which cannot be done with a lee....it starts resizing the body long before a reasonable amount of neck has been sized.





I guess I must be missing something. It really wouldn't be out of character for me to do that. :mrgreen: I use the .284 brass and on the first loading of new brass I resize the brass with the full length sizer and then neck size only after that and I have no problems.

If when neck sizing if the die is resizing the body I can't tell it. After reading your reply I went to my reloading bench just to see what happens when I neck size only and I neck sized a case and examined it and I found nothing wrong.

The case I neck sized before sizing would allow a .308 bullet to easily slide into the case and after the neck sizing would not allow the bullet to enter the case without forcing it in and as far as I could tell the body of the case was not changed.

I really wasn't going to continue this debate in fear that everyone would find out what an idiot I really am because I know most on this forum are much more knowledgeable than I am when it comes to reloading but if there is something I am missing or there is something I need to learn than I am willing to take the chance. :drinks:

I should add that I put a primer into the case with no powder or bullet, loaded the case and fired and ejected with absoloutley no problems. If the dies are not defective in any way and there is no mechanical problem with the rifle it has been my experience that any time I have had a failure to chamber or fire a round in my K31 it has been my fault and I have noticed on occasion that the bolt appears to be completley closed but is not.

I have had on occasion when I thought the bolt looked to be closed would bump the bolt handle and that was all that was neccesary to be able fire the rifle.

[chuebner]

[QUOTE

I really wasn't going to continue this debate in fear that everyone would find out what an idiot I really am [/QUOTE]

There are no idiots here. Only folks who have not found the answers yet and that's why we're all here.

Charlie

[mike in co]

I guess I must be missing something. It really wouldn't be out of character for me to do that. :mrgreen: I use the .284 brass and on the first loading of new brass I resize the brass with the full length sizer and then neck size only after that and I have no problems.

If when neck sizing if the die is resizing the body I can't tell it. After reading your reply I went to my reloading bench just to see what happens when I neck size only and I neck sized a case and examined it and I found nothing wrong.

The case I neck sized before sizing would allow a .308 bullet to easily slide into the case and after the neck sizing would not allow the bullet to enter the case without forcing it in and as far as I could tell the body of the case was not changed.

I really wasn't going to continue this debate in fear that everyone would find out what an idiot I really am because I know most on this forum are much more knowledgeable than I am when it comes to reloading but if there is something I am missing or there is something I need to learn than I am willing to take the chance. :drinks:

I should add that I put a primer into the case with no powder or bullet, loaded the case and fired and ejected with absoloutley no problems. If the dies are not defective in any way and there is no mechanical problem with the rifle it has been my experience that any time I have had a failure to chamber or fire a round in my K31 it has been my fault and I have noticed on occasion that the bolt appears to be completley closed but is not.

I have had on occasion when I thought the bolt looked to be closed would bump the bolt handle and that was all that was neccesary to be able fire the rifle.

jack,
i will not claim that what works with your rifle with your loads and your lee die, aint so.
way back when, this has been discussed many times. my background is with full power loads with jacketed bullets. with a lighter load you may shoot several times before you have an issue with size, who knows maybe never.
to check what your die is doing, paint the case with a magic marker, no lube and then neck size. this will show you what your die is doing. you maybe be surprised to see just how much case is being resized...maybe not.
to be able to neck size without significant case sizing, the only die i know of is the redding, and the lee collect( and i have not used the lee collet yet)
i'm glad things are working for you, but when some one posts up and says they are having a problem, it is inverably the die.....
all the dies work..right up till one tries to neck size without touching the body. all the dies except the redding are based on the 1911 chamber which is smaller than the k-31.
have a good day
mike in co

[legend]

it was my lucky day when i found you guys!
last night i went to the loader and primed a case,put it in the gun and it would not fire.since it had been fired in that k-31 and not resized i suppose i start at the begining and go through all the steps and eliminate one at a time untill i find it. its snowing here in gods country and i have the weekend to find what i did wrong.
i am gratefull for all your insights and ideas. i look forward to the process........

[jack19512]

to be able to neck size without significant case sizing, the only die i know of is the redding, and the lee collect( and i have not used the lee collet yet)







Well, I guess that is the part I didn't understand. The Lee collet is the one I use. I just took for granted that anyone that is neck sizing with a Lee die would be using the collet neck sizing die.

This probably isn't relevant but I was curious so I took an unsized case and used magic marker on it and run it through the collet die. The pic isn't very good but I didn't see any difference in the case as far as the magic marker was concerned.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63/jack19512/K31case.jpg

[jack19512]

last night i went to the loader and primed a case,put it in the gun and it would not fire.since it had been fired in that k-31 and not resized






Well my curiosity got the best of me again so I took an unsized case, made sure the .308 bullet would slide easily into the case, loaded a primer in it, loaded the case into the rifle, fired it and ejected it with no problems. Now this case might have been used with my cast bullets and maybe a full power load might be a different story. But since I have only been shooting cast out of this rifle I guess in my case it just doesn't matter about full power loads.

[mike in co]

i'd guess that a lot of us(??) started neck sizing by just unscrewing a fl die till it did not size and still hit the neck.
sorta pre lee collet days.....old school...lol

now adays i guess we gotta spcify....

mike

[Jeffreytooker]

i'd guess that a lot of us(??) started neck sizing by just unscrewing a fl die till it did not size and still hit the neck.
sorta pre lee collet days.....old school...lol

now adays i guess we gotta spcify....

mike

I have a 30 cal short neck die. It is made by Hornaday. I would suppose others make them. It is the standard decapping resizing die with the sizing ball and decapping pin on a stem. The case sizing portion of the die is removed, and only the neck is sized. I usually remove the stem and neck expand with an M die. I do not find that Lee collet dies give a constant neck tension on Lapua brass which has rather hard necks. I use mine on 30 Kern cases (blown out 7.62X39). IIRC they make a medium and a long die also. This will allow neck resizing without a collet die. I remember being taught to neck size with a FL resizing die by putting a dime under the lock ring of the resizing die. I use Lee collet on my K31 and they work fine.

Jeffrey

[Ed Barrett]

I read a while the Swiss made the change in their 7.5 chambers so yhat in times of war they would chamber and shoot the 7.5 MAS (French) cartridge. I have fired 7.5 MAS cartridges in a K31 with no problem. I would think if you used 7.5 MAS dies to size the Swiss brass it might not work the cases as much as the dies cut for the older swiss cartridge. I will try reading the dimensions after sizing both ways. perhaps this would be a quick fix.

[MtGun44]

Hornady is also making a K31 specific die set now, I really like their
quality. I have just gotten my set and haven't had a chance to try
it yet, took a backorder from Graf.

Also - be sure that your failure to close isn't the boolit in the nearly
non-existant throat. I had this problem at first with j-bullets and it
was because the bullet was seated too far out - the Swiss use a
two diameter bullet, bore diam in front of the cannelure, groove diam
behind it, so it had nearly zero throat, much different than US chambers
in most cases (no pun intended)

Bill

[jack19512]

\Also - be sure that your failure to close isn't the boolit in the nearly
non-existant throat. I had this problem at first with j-bullets and it
was because the bullet was seated too far out







Just about every time I had a failure to fire with my K31 and reloads this was my problem also.

[legend]

after not getting the lee dies to work only the neck,i orderd the redding dies this morning.

thank you to all for the help,i will give an update after they arrive;and what lee says about thier fine die set.

thank you

[jack19512]

I'm curious why you just didn't order the Lee collet neck sizer?

[legend]

jack,
the reasons were two;first i may want to use 284 brass to form cases in the future,and second my company rewards us when we do something" SPECIAL", with a prepaid gift card(200 dollars) through am express.its money i use to play around with and i had one about to expire....they are only good for six months.

[legend]

UPDATE:
i got the new redding 7.5x55 die set on friday.i spent a little while cleaning primer pockets,tumbling,adjusting dies.etc and loaded with lees 185gr 312.(i sized to 308 and seated to lightly engauge the lands.)
sunday they shot several one hole ragged groups at 50 yards.i used 16gr 2400 and cci 200.
i neck sized cases in the new die and shoulder was not touched(it did slightly size the sides of the case) cases slid into the k-31 chamber like they are supposed to,bold closed like its supposed to....
all is right in my little world


anyone need lee 7.5x55 paperweights?????

[mto7464]

how about a group buy on Redding K31 dies??

[legend]

what quality dies they are! however,they are proud of them also.
legend

[swiss 96/11]

I have 4-K31's and i only neck size for all of them and have not had any chambering problems.and i can interchange rounds and they will chamber in my other rifles.Dont forget we are talking SWISS quality here. I do not think they were sloppy with their chambers.I have fired some Priv brass 20 times working up loads(cast bullets) and it is still going strong.I have not trimmed it or full length sized it either.I use a Redding Type S-bushing die or a Lee collet die.Norma is my favorite brass but the Prvi is darn good brass,so is .284 Win. necked up. Just make sure to give your charging handle a GOOD bump with your palm when seating cast bullits.

[chuebner]

I have 4-K31's and i only neck size for all of them and have not had any chambering problems.and i can interchange rounds and they will chamber in my other rifles.

I have a '46' and '53' K31 that will not interchange cast handloads. I seat my bullets to just touch the rifling but in the '53' I have to set the bullet .125 deeper in the case . Makes it interesting at the range when I have a box of reloads for the '46' and brought the '53' to shoot them. The heal of my hand gets quite sore slamming the bolt home.

Charlie